MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

[malli]

buy the 16. no asshole in quetta would say that he would win the war against india when faced with 72 vs 260 odds

Why ? Could you please, give the argument in favour of your favourite F - 16? That is, why not anyone from the other 5?

have you ever played a wargame????

[Rahul M]

fools-ki kami nahi hai zindagi mein. ek dhundo to hazaar milte hain.

how right you are !
1st warning for disruptive behaviour and being one of the 1000.
more to follow if you continue on this path.

username changed to malli.

[malli]

fools-ki kami nahi hai zindagi mein. ek dhundo to hazaar milte hain.

how right you are !
1st warning for disruptive behaviour and being one of the 1000.
more to follow if you continue on this path.

username changed to malli.

sorry..

[Drishyaman]

buy the 16. no asshole in quetta would say that he would win the war against india when faced with 72 vs 260 odds

Sirji, Are you also partisan here? Quoting your first post here.

am surprised with the amount of partisanship on the forum.

have you ever played a wargame????

So, you have played, then you should be able to give arguments in favour F - 16. Let us read your views then.

[Boreas]

Err, no. Not when there are uber upgraded MKIs en masse. No need for eurofritter or anything to deal with riffraff - MKI is more than enough. Backed with upgraded M2k-5 + MiG-29, and LCA. Adding another 4.5 gen bird to the inventory is of no use whatever. Don't forget not too long ago - just 5 years or so - the IAF felt and described the need for an MRCA via a Mirage 2000-5. In 3-4 years little has changed to alter this.

The strength of MKI's alone is not enough. We need more.

If we buy a EF/Rafale it will be operational and relevant till 2050. Both France and EADS don't have any other fighter development program and hence will continue supporting them.

Mig29/Mirage are more then 2 decade old designs, to maintain numbers we may upgrade what we already have. BUT buying more of them will be stupidity. If IAF will induct a plane in 2014-15 it will need supplies atleast for coming 3 decades.

Dassault no longer manufactures Mirage and Mikoyan is moving on to Mig-35. Have you thought of who will support these planes for 3-4 more decades? Where from IAF will be getting spares in 2030-40?

U must be kidding if you think Dassault will provide M2k spares in 2035!

Also note that I was speaking of upgraded flankers/J10s (B variant) as a competitive threat against the MRCA and NOT the current versions. The M2k/MiG-29 upgs in a networked envirnoment should be more than enough to deal with current versions and challenge future versions.

What exactly do you mean by "will challange future versions" - run for shelter?

And then don't you think that in a networked environment EF/Rafale/SH will be able to a$$kick panda's upgraded flankers/J10s?
Hence won't it be better to buy them?

By the time the J11/J10B sees operational service, one can assume that a superior Su-30MKI should be operational thereby nullifying the need for a similarly specced MRCA.

If you would had a habit of reading newspaper you must have known there are 'already' 7 divisions of J11 in PLAAF.

Read again what I said - I did not say Chinese 4 gen a/c will have an advantage against MRCA anywhere in my post - you are surely mixing things up and putting words in my mouth. The point is curent Chinese 4 gen a/c should be tackled by MKI, M2k/29 upg, LCA, Bison. Near future chinese 4.5 gen threat can be dealt with MLUed MKI + upg M2k/M29, LCA 2. If J20 comes along nicely, only 5 gen type will be competitive. In either case, MRCA is unnecessary.

(Try to focus and understand)

-> Point is your upg M2k/M29 wont be able to cross border and return home.
-> MKI's can do that. but we don't have enough of them.
-> To have enough nos we could buy 150+ more MKI's, but it won't be cost effective to support such big number of heavy fighters.
-> Hence we are inducting "Medium" "Multirole" Fighters, Which will get the job done, Which will bring "new class of technology" (ie western) and Which will enhance our numbers.

-> Hence, it is imperative for IAF to induct these 4++ Gen Multirole Fighters.

To summarize what I said:
a) MRCA is not competitive against a pure 5 gen design
b) What little advantage an MRCA might provide against 4.5 gen a/c will be achieved and sustained by a upgraded MKI fleet backed by M2k/29 upgrades and Tejas Mk2.
c)Tech gap cannot be filled via MRCA (there is nothing there either in terms of heavy partnerships or in terms of novelty in design/tech).
d) MRCA is mainly an interim/number filling solution because of - retirement of older types and delays in LCA.

The primary goal of MRCA is D) above, which can be achieved by getting greater #s of LCA, M2k-5, MIG-29 and perhaps a sqd more of MKI.

a) Neither will be upg Mig/mirage. For that we have FGFA. But MRCA will A$$ kick all other fighters in PLAAF while upg Mig/Mirage can't.
b) It can't, otherwise French won't be flying Rafale and British won't be flying EF.. they would have upgraded.
c) If that is the case then I think everybody who is crying that unkil wont do much technology transfer is FOOL, coz as per you we are not going to get any significant technology from MRCA anyways. I wonder why people at MoD failed to realize it!
d) Yes you can say that, any fighter which is planned to be inducted in high volume will provide number advantage, but MMRCA will ALSO bring much superior quality. If you try to perform a same mission with M2K/Mig29/LCA the attrition will be manifolds.



I was looking forward for a fruitful discussion, but now i realize your inclination is more towards making random comments.

It is funny when somebody says induct more M2ks/Mig-29 in the year 2014, without visualizing how irrelevant they will be by 2030s.. forget 2040-50!

Even there manufacturers have not pitched them in the competition, because they knew these planes cant fulfill the requirements IAF have. Your proposition lacks merit right there.

[malli]

fools-ki kami nahi hai zindagi mein. ek dhundo to hazaar milte hain.

how right you are !
1st warning for disruptive behaviour and being one of the 1000.
more to follow if you continue on this path.

username changed to malli.

[u]hello achilles, welcome
are you by any chance an employee of LM?
if not, please go through all 400 archived pages of this thread and answer your own question[/u]

sirjee, pse also stop these insinuations.

[Lalmohan]

malli-ji
BRF has all sorts of comment and opinion, from the truly insightful to the utterly moronic. a fair number here have good knowledge and experience of the subjects under discussion, which sometimes is drowned out by the utterly moronic, but we all manage to get along somehow, thanks to the adminullah's predator strikes. you have joined this thread in its 48nth avatar where all these arguements have been worn to death, resurrected and then crucified again and again and again... not your fault, you are new here - you haven't seen the history. it would be polite to observe before shooting from the hip.
i do hope that you can share your wisdom with all of us, we will certainly benefit from it, and indeed you may be senior and have grey hairs - but in the anonymity of the internet we are all equal. so lets play ball by the rules

[malli]

buy the 16. no asshole in quetta would say that he would win the war against india when faced with 72 vs 260 odds

Sirji, Are you also partisan here? Quoting your first post here.

am surprised with the amount of partisanship on the forum.

have you ever played a wargame????

So, you have played, then you should be able to give arguments in favour F - 16. Let us read your views then.

my views are very very simple. these birds had double the range of our soviet birds, they were more serviceable and 52 of them were enough to deter us when they were operational. the jags with the asm had a range of 300 nm while the teens had a range of 520 nm. it makes operational planning very verydifficult. correct me if i am wrong no MIG has beaten a Teen since the 60's.

[malli]

malli-ji
BRF has all sorts of comment and opinion, from the truly insightful to the utterly moronic. a fair number here have good knowledge and experience of the subjects under discussion, which sometimes is drowned out by the utterly moronic, but we all manage to get along somehow, thanks to the adminullah's predator strikes. you have joined this thread in its 48nth avatar where all these arguements have been worn to death, resurrected and then crucified again and again and again... not your fault, you are new here - you haven't seen the history. it would be polite to observe before shooting from the hip.
i do hope that you can share your wisdom with all of us, we will certainly benefit from it, and indeed you may be senior and have grey hairs - but in the anonymity of the internet we are all equal. so lets play ball by the rules

lalmohan ji, thanks for crediting with grey hairs. i ahve been monitoring this thread from a long time and its my misfortune that ive joined only now. anyway, i wish you the best.

[malli]

the original question...
are you guys all sure that the f-16in is inferior to the gripen??

[Boreas]

my views are very very simple. these birds had double the range of our soviet birds, they were more serviceable and 52 of them were enough to deter us when they were operational. the jags with the asm had a range of 300 nm while the teens had a range of 520 nm. it makes operational planning very very difficult. correct me if i am wrong no MIG has beaten a Teen since the 60's.

I wonder what if TSP had 100/150 F16.. perhaps we would have surrendered Kashmir.

and in case PAF managed to have 200 of them.. we would have ceded some of our territory as well.

[Rahul M]

>> correct me if i am wrong no MIG has beaten a Teen since the 60's.

firstly, the teens entered service in mid to late 70's. therefore it was impossible for a mig to beat a teen in 60's when they didn't exist.
after that, when did the teens ever face migs on something even remotely approaching level playing ground ? a war is not a duel between two individual fighters but one between two war machines, their doctrine, training and support structures.
the only time I know of is the urban legend of an IAF mig-29 facing two rapidly approaching PAF F-16's during kargil both of which disengaged on being locked on by the IAF mig.

[Drishyaman]

my views are very very simple. these birds had double the range of our soviet birds, they were more serviceable and 52 of them were enough to deter us when they were operational. the jags with the asm had a range of 300 nm while the teens had a range of 520 nm. it makes operational planning very verydifficult. correct me if i am wrong no MIG has beaten a Teen since the 60's.

That is because the teens tried to bite the Migs of 3 rd world countries, and itself having the back – up of their missiles and satellites. From your statements I can assume you have a lot of greys, so you must be remembering the Vietnam War ( that was years before I came ).
That was probably the last time when significant dog – fight happened between soviet migs and US F-series.
When was the last time a US teen faced a Mig of a 2 nd world country and that too without itself having the back up of missiles (SS) and satellites ?

[Drishyaman]

I wonder what if TSP had 100/150 F16.. perhaps we would have surrendered Kashmir.

and in case PAF managed to have 200 of them.. we would have ceded some of our territory as well.

[malli]

>> correct me if i am wrong no MIG has beaten a Teen since the 60's.

firstly, the teens entered service in mid to late 70's. therefore it was impossible for a mig to beat a teen in 60's when they didn't exist.
after that, when did the teens ever face migs on something even remotely approaching level playing ground ? a war is not a duel between two individual fighters but one between two war machines, their doctrine, training and support structures.
the only time I know of is the urban legend of an IAF mig-29 facing two rapidly approaching PAF F-16's during kargil both of which disengaged on being locked on by the IAF mig.

great. i meant that US fighters were much superior to Soviet fighters from 1960 onwards. Both F-16's disengaged because they didnt have BVR missiles during kargil. they have now.

[malli]

I wonder what if TSP had 100/150 F16.. perhaps we would have surrendered Kashmir.

and in case PAF managed to have 200 of them.. we would have ceded some of our territory as well.

i am very surprised with this argument. firstly TSP never \had more than 52 teens. They could not afford more. Till 2005 all they had was only F-16A/B s with no BVRAAM. Its passe to blame unkil for everything but he could have given AMRAAMs in 1996 to TSP. he didnt. we all can keep arguing but as eisenhower or bush keep saying, its in unkil's interest to keep us thriving as an example for the world. we just need to leverage that.

[Drishyaman]

great. i meant that US fighters were much superior to Soviet fighters from 1960 onwards.

That is your partisan view. See, I told you above you are partsan

Both F-16's disengaged because they didnt have BVR missiles during kargil.

So, you mean to say 2, F- 16 ran away seeing a Mig in layman’s language. Now, you say which one is better ? And who doesn’t have WVR / BVR now?

[malli]

my views are very very simple. these birds had double the range of our soviet birds, they were more serviceable and 52 of them were enough to deter us when they were operational. the jags with the asm had a range of 300 nm while the teens had a range of 520 nm. it makes operational planning very verydifficult. correct me if i am wrong no MIG has beaten a Teen since the 60's.

That is because the teens tried to bite the Migs of 3 rd world countries, and itself having the back – up of their missiles and satellites. From your statements I can assume you have a lot of greys, so you must be remembering the Vietnam War ( that was years before I came ).
That was probably the last time when significant dog – fight happened between soviet migs and US F-series.
When was the last time a US teen faced a Mig of a 2 nd world country and that too without itself having the back up of missiles (SS) and satellites ?

so are planning to face china tommorrow without the backup of satellites and missiles???

[ramana]

RahulM, There are cursory reports of FSU/Afghan AF planes being challenged by TSPA F-16s in the mid 80s.

[negi]

the original question...
are you guys all sure that the f-16in is inferior to the gripen??

Yes ofcourse! You see F<G.

[Drishyaman]

i am very surprised with this argument. firstly TSP never \had more than 52 teens. They could not afford more. Till 2005 all they had was only F-16A/B s with no BVRAAM. Its passe to blame unkil for everything but he could have given AMRAAMs in 1996 to TSP. he didnt. we all can keep arguing but as eisenhower or bush keep saying, its in unkil's interest to keep us thriving as an example for the world. we just need to leverage that.

See, now you came to the point. You yourself gave the reason as to why we should not go in for Unkil's hardware. Unkil cannot be trusted.
Refer to the latest case Elta EL/M-2052, how Unkil used his spanner.

[malli]

the original question...
are you guys all sure that the f-16in is inferior to the gripen??

[Rahul M]

ramana ji, all ground attack fighters. su-25, su-22, mig-23 in GA config etc. in most cases they were ambushed while returning from bombing runs. the soviet didn't have good SA in that area.

[Rahul M]

>> correct me if i am wrong no MIG has beaten a Teen since the 60's.

firstly, the teens entered service in mid to late 70's. therefore it was impossible for a mig to beat a teen in 60's when they didn't exist.
after that, when did the teens ever face migs on something even remotely approaching level playing ground ? a war is not a duel between two individual fighters but one between two war machines, their doctrine, training and support structures.
the only time I know of is the urban legend of an IAF mig-29 facing two rapidly approaching PAF F-16's during kargil both of which disengaged on being locked on by the IAF mig.

great. i meant that US fighters were much superior to Soviet fighters from 1960 onwards. Both F-16's disengaged because they didnt have BVR missiles during kargil. they have now.

that is very debatable. if you insist mig-29<<F-16 or su-27/30<< F-15 most outside discovery and natgeo producers would doubt your sanity.

[Drishyaman]

so are planning to face china tommorrow without the backup of satellites and missiles???

Are you trying to put your words in my mouth?

[SaiK]

The F16 IN can be superior to Gripen, but at no cost it can be superior to the paki counterpart. Jee.. have you thought about the p!ssing war to happen after this. The more this 16 year old shows off, the more defects pakis would find in their imported Khandoms.

[malli]

i am very surprised with this argument. firstly TSP never \had more than 52 teens. They could not afford more. Till 2005 all they had was only F-16A/B s with no BVRAAM. Its passe to blame unkil for everything but he could have given AMRAAMs in 1996 to TSP. he didnt. we all can keep arguing but as eisenhower or bush keep saying, its in unkil's interest to keep us thriving as an example for the world. we just need to leverage that.

See, now you came to the point. You yourself gave the reason as to why we should not go in for Unkil's hardware. Unkil cannot be trusted.
Refer to the latest case Elta EL/M-2052, how Unkil used his spanner.

Somehow we have a very exalted opinion about ourseleves and our friends. in the same way we have a very inferior opinion about our percieved competitors. AESA is American. period. gallium nitride or silicon arsenide the raw material is american. period. Everyone is just designing around the raw material.
Even the russians are importing the raw material.
smell the air. buy the best tech available.

[malli]

so are planning to face china tommorrow without the backup of satellites and missiles???

Are you trying to put your words in my mouth?

the original question...
are you guys all sure that the f-16in is inferior to the gripen??

[malli]

rahul, forget natgeo.. what will military history tell you three decades hence??? are you really serious that the f-16in with a 1650 km ROA with 4 AMRAAMs is inferior to a superbly handling Gripen with a 340 nm ROA? Has anyone thought that that the flight software of the gripen is the same as the f-16?? or that the 90kn f414 is being compared with the 125kn f16 engine at the same price. forget the stupid justifications. will you buy a car for yourself that has lesser power and range and fuel efficiency because it accelerates better in first gear? dont judge a fighter on airshow performances.

[malli]

newbee here again, there's been so much discussions about source codes and tot?? Our great and ever great hyped PSU's have not even changed the the source codes of surface navigation radars. A selesmar radar is available for 74 lakhs in the open market while the armed forces have to buy the same shit for 2.5 crores with inferior performance because BEL has indegenised the cabinets. get real man.

Sirji, Are you a Arms dealer by any chance ? Are you in the business of procuring Arms for India?

if i had been an arms dealer i would have been plugging the mig35/45 or the gripen ng/eg because thats where the money is.

[Rahul M]

err, I wasn't talking of the gripen at all. you raised a specific point and I believe I made a reply relevant to that particular point. why on earth are you assuming I'm arguing for gripen ?

[malli]

the original question...
are you guys all sure that the f-16in is inferior to the gripen??

[malli]

tommorrows question.
are you guys sure that the rafale is superior to the F-16IN?

[Viv S]

lalmohan...
surprisingly i am someone who's used the socialist hardware. I am also pretty close to the field. stop ****** romantising useless hardware. you will have the blood of young pilots on your hands.
have you ever operated US and Russian/ European hardware??? you will understand what i am talking about.
you can all be influenced but i have generational memory.
love you.
no malice to you at all.

So god forbid, if a young pilot does lose his life, I guess we need collar Lalmohan and hold him accountable for his actions.


Having spent so much time discussing the MRCA, I think we've deluded ourselves into believing that BRF decides which aircraft will finally fly in IAF colours.

[malli]

err, I wasn't talking of the gripen at all. you raised a specific point and I believe I made a reply relevant to that particular point. why on earth are you assuming I'm arguing for gripen ?

that was really good. i assumed as an administrator you reflect the forums view. i was mistaken. i wish we could have a much more informed debate. thanks and regards.

[Rahul M]

there is NO forum's view, everyone, including the mods have their individual POV that may or may not tally with members or each other. a mod's job starts and ends with ensuring a healthy environment for debate. all discussions are in our respective personal capacities.

[jai]

tommorrows question.
are you guys sure that the rafale is superior to the F-16IN?

Yes.... !!

the original question...
are you guys all sure that the f-16in is inferior to the gripen??

Yes...... !!! Yes...... !!! We do not like Khan stuff that comes with conditions .......anything else in the competition without conditions is better.

Original question(s) to you...with due respect to the greys......

a) Is the F 16IN superior to J 20 ??

b) What's your ******* point Ji ??

[SaiK]

1 Rafale OUT to destroy would bring 16 Fs IN trouble.

[Lalmohan]

malli-ji, instead of asking the question
why not state your reasons for believing the 16IN to be superior to the Gripen
and then go to the next level

[Mahendra]

Noob question

What is generational memory? will all the contenders for the MRCA contract have it? From what I gather, LMji doesn't have it and the poor chap hasn't operated hardware either. Wonder what he is doing here, perhaps being a raj apologist for the Typhoon