Rahul M wrote: why would they co-operate with us on another in the same category ?
aviationweek wrote: Saraswat says the Indian government has sanctioned the development of a 90- to 100-seat regional transport and talks have taken place with Embraer.
NRao saar , you have conveniently forgotten to mention the other half of the storyNRao wrote:aviationweek wrote: Saraswat says the Indian government has sanctioned the development of a 90- to 100-seat regional transport and talks have taken place with Embraer.
Saraswat says the Indian government has sanctioned the development of a 90- to 100-seat regional transport and talks have taken place with Embraer. He also notes the potential for cooperation with Brazil on India’s planned fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, but Embraer says no discussion have taken place on that program.
So, India should never attempt a civil aircraft after all?Austin wrote:I have yet to come across a strong business reason why NAL/HAL would like to build a 70-100 seater , what kind of market they are focusing at and what is the sales projection and revenue generation expected for NCA.
What Honeywell speaks of is 20 to 40% increase in 'aircraft performance' and not the increase in thrust. among other things like 'drop - fit' retrofit IOW no design changes for fitting F125 the other advantages they speak of is "Its modern design will transform the Jaguar aircraft. Its best in class thrust-to weight will provide a 23% reduction in takeoff distance or 2000 kg increase in allowable takeoff weight and up to a 36% improvement in mission radius".khukri wrote:A little detective work and calculation will get you the answer.
Honeywell say that their engine generates between 17% to 40%greater thrust.
when the existing MK 811 of the Jag has A/B thrust - 8400lbf (37.4kn) where did you get the 7500lbf for MK 821 sir??Assuming the first figure applies to the dry thrust and the second to A/B thrust you could guess that the Adour 821 generates 5325 ft lbs dry and 7500 ft lbs with afterburner (approximately, allowing for Honeywell's knife in RR's back!)
How much of it is true if any ?Gauda also informed the IAF had already placed orders for 40 LCA Tejas, and 83 more aircraft would be manufactured subsequently.
“The helicopter, which could be useful in tackling insurgency, was flown on March 31last but some more flight trials were necessary. The Indian Army had already placed orders for 180 such choppers
, which are twin-seater, trainer aircraft,” Gauda said.
Gauda clarified that the technical snags leading to frequent mishaps involving the single-engine MiG-21s have been identified and corrected.
pragnya wrote:What Honeywell speaks of is 20 to 40% increase in 'aircraft performance' and not the increase in thrust. among other things like 'drop - fit' retrofit IOW no design changes for fitting F125 the other advantages they speak of is "Its modern design will transform the Jaguar aircraft. Its best in class thrust-to weight will provide a 23% reduction in takeoff distance or 2000 kg increase in allowable takeoff weight and up to a 36% improvement in mission radius"khukri wrote:A little detective work and calculation will get you the answer.
Honeywell say that their engine generates between 17% to 40%greater thrust.
noted. thanks.khukri wrote:Actually they specifically say thrust
http://www.honeywellforjaguar.com/opera ... nefits.php
also the same article says - "He added the full operational clearance for the LCA is expected to be given by June 2011.Pratik_S wrote:Tejas set to add teeth to IAFHow much of it is true if any ?Gauda also informed the IAF had already placed orders for 40 LCA Tejas, and 83 more aircraft would be manufactured subsequently.
“The helicopter, which could be useful in tackling insurgency, was flown on March 31
Gauda clarified that the technical snags leading to frequent mishaps involving the single-engine MiG-21s have been identified and corrected.
pragnya wrote:noted. thanks.khukri wrote:Actually they specifically say thrust
http://www.honeywellforjaguar.com/opera ... nefits.php
infact 17% increase matches with the A/B thrusts - 8400lbf for RR vs 9850lbf for Honeywell. however this is only wrt RR Adour MK 811 and not MK 821.
So, the conclusion I should draw from your comment :Singha wrote:regardless of thrust the airframe shape and structure puts a limit on top speed and agility. so Mach1.6 at high alt may well remain the top speed. more important will be its medium alt escape speed and low alt ingress speed increase if any.
the Jag is not a agile plane....in a IAF demo I have seen a mock Jag -vs- Mig29 chase scene where the -29 easily turned well within the Jags turn radius and got on its 6 for a mock guns kill in short order.
Nowhere, I mentioned Mach 2nachiket wrote:You will never have Jaguars zooming around at Mach 2 regardless of the increase in total thrust.
No Rahul Ji, I am not trying to be confrontational. I am just putting my viewsRahul M wrote:drishyaman ji, you are coming across as confrontational which I'm sure is not your intention.
singha ji's assessment is correct on every count, btw.
Lalmohan Ji,Lalmohan wrote:drishyaman
there may be some improvement in top speed, but not much at the high end of the envelope
as they said, might be better performance at ingress and exit speeds
increased thrust will help in climb and turn, but no extrapolation was made - what painstakingly explained to you was that an a2a fighter can easily out turn and out manouver the jaguar because of aerodynamic advantages not related to thrust
dont start being option 2 of my spectrum please!
let me put it this way, consider the jaguar to be the very anti-thesis of the LCA. the LCA is meant to be aerodynamically unstable and a good medium to high altitude performer. its low wing loading to aerodynamic design everything optimises these aspects of its envelope.Drishyaman wrote:No Rahul Ji, I am not trying to be confrontational. I am just putting my viewsRahul M wrote:drishyaman ji, you are coming across as confrontational which I'm sure is not your intention.
singha ji's assessment is correct on every count, btw.
Let me explain to you what is in the back of my mind (May be I am wrong)
Please, correct my understanding.
The maximum speed of present jaguar is 1.6 Mach, is that the limitation of the air frame or the adour engine ?
I am not sure but what if the air frame of Jagaur has more than what it is currently displaying and I was thinking may be a engine with better thrust might extract some more out of the airframe.
On that note, does the Mig-29 upgrade include integration with an LDP like Litening? Another aircraft that has no problems with its high altitude performance and could be used for PGM strikes in those regions if we are really short of aircraft in some sector. Provided the multirole capability added by the SMT upgrade includes an LDP of course.Singha wrote:the Jags were not deployed at 20,000ft bombing missions in kargil due to lack of hi alt performance and mirages used instead.
with a better engine the entire uttaranchal, ladakh, west kashmir, high sikkim areas denied to it thus far should become its playing field....which means additional 80-100 bombers to throw at any problem.
a fairly cheap and easy way to double our combat power in these regions...
NRao saar , you have ..................................................
Saraswat says the Indian government has sanctioned the development of a 90- to 100-seat regional transport and talks have taken place with Embraer. He also notes the potential for cooperation with Brazil on India’s planned fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, but Embraer says no discussion have taken place on that program.
May, 2010 :: India begins feasibility study on 90-seater civilian aircraftI have yet to come across a strong business reason why NAL/HAL would like to build a 70-100 seater , what kind of market they are focusing at and what is the sales projection and revenue generation expected for NCA.
This is clearly a civil aircraft with focus on selling to civilian indian/global market , so do they have a captive market in Indian Airlines or Private players with assured number to make the project viable , certainly the military would buy it but it will be small in number.
If they build a 70-100 seater and compete in global market , they would be competing against Embraer EJet ,Bombardier CRJ series,Superjet SSJ100 and Antanov An-148/158 , what would NCA bring on the table that would beat these jet and compel global/local customers to buy it , considering its an upstart you have to beat them by 7-10 % in most parameter so that you generate eyeball at your product.
Without having a good business justification , strong market and a competitive product NCA wont fly much.
A better option would be to join any one of the major player in this segment as stake holder and develop components ,frame or entire aircraft if its economically feasible and develop the competencies and make revenue from its global and local sales MOD can control which aircraft Indian Armed forces can buy so there is some leverage there but HAL/CSIR/NAL cant control the global competitive civil market.
The only rational I found at AeroIndia when asked why are we developing a 100 seater civil aircraft is that it is indigenous !
How about developing Saras sooner and making a profitable revenue out of its global/local sales , that would be a good benchmark to see how HAL/NAL competes globally in this segment.
The estimates (for India) seem to gone up in this article, but the min seems to be around 350.Various estimates indicate a latent demand of around 500-600 regional jets in India, and 3,500-4000 globally. The major players in the segment include Canadian Bombardier, Brazil's Embraer, European ATR and USA's Cessna .
The Bisons + Mig-27s itself will be around 250. Add the Mig-21 Ms to that and we get over 300 aircraft. Allah knows what the squadron strength of the IAF is going to be in 2017.Singha wrote:
so MRCA and Tejas Mk2 need to be in quantity to make up for the Mig27s and Mig21s going away (around 200 units).
Against the backdrop of air crashes involving MiG fighters, the government on Wednesday said it was planning to phase-out the majority of the Russian-origin jets from the Indian Air Force by 2017 and replace them with modern aircraft.
Defence Minister A K Antony told Rajya Sabha that a number of modern aircraft such as the Su-30 MKI, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and the Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) would be procured to replace the squadrons of MiG 21s and MiG 23s.
The Air force have got a "clear-cut plan" to phase out these aircraft by 2017 and by the same time the induction of new aircraft like Sukhoi-30 MKI and, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will begin, Antony said while replying to a member's query on flight safety during Question Hour.
The Minister said the initial operational clearance for LCA has already been "successfully conducted" and it will be inducted in the Air Force "very soon".
On the proposal to procure 126 M-MRCA, Antony assured the members that the induction plan for the project was not lagging behind and will not take time up to 2020 to introduce these aircraft in the IAF.
He said that large scale acquisition of Sukhoi-30 MKI, LCA and the MMRCA will take place within the next few years and acknowledged that such an exercise could not take place in past due to "historical reasons".
The Defence Minister sought to allay apprehensions that the quality of aircraft spare parts being supplied to the country has deteriorated after the break-up of Soviet Union and that it could be a reason for the aircraft accidents.
He said "quality is all right" and there was no complaint regarding it by and large but admitted that after the disintegration of Soviet Union, there are "some slippages in delivery" of the spare parts as companies manufacturing the products shifted bases.
Antony said the government is trying to handle the problems related to time schedule of deliveries of spare parts.
A statement was also laid in the House in which the ministry gave details of aircraft accidents in response to a question by Congress member T M Selvaganapath.
The statement said 12 accidents of IAF aircraft took place during the last year in which 5 pilots, 11 service personnel and four civilians were killed while one such incident took place till February 18 in which no casualty was reported.
Just because there is estimates does not mean people would buy it , airliners would buy it if at the least they have a competitive product , have global MRO facility and a good leasing organization that would sweeten the deal , thats how the biggies work.The estimates (for India) seem to gone up in this article, but the min seems to be around 350.
NRao sir , Well that was not directed against you and I do not make any conversation personal. The problem with such estimate is it come from DRDO people who are not into sales or have good background or years of experience selling aircraft to have a good understanding of the market and how to make a good estimate on where you stand based on your strengths and production/supply chain.NRao wrote:I was just a messenger.
However, nothing can be done without an estimate. Besides India seems to be studying the situation, I have not read in detail, but there is nothing out there that suggests that India has decided to go ahead with the effort beyond studying the situation.
The right thing for Saras would be to get the certification done quickly and let the forces buy it and put it for competition.I have to believe - at this point in time - Saras and all - that they are doing the right thing.
Financial and Maturity is one thing , but it does not mean we can make great aircraft or better beat the competition , China financial muscle is many time stronger then India but they have no aircraft of their own , Russia is so dominant in aircraft building and has a good niche in defence market but yet it cannot produce a competitive civil aircraft that can beat Boeing or Airbus.One more thing: trends are great when trying to predict the future, however, even with Saras as part of the data point, we have to agree, that today India is not the same as 2000. India has, for sure, a lot more to boot. Financially and maturity wise. With that in mind, I for one, would wipe out the Saras experience. And, I would consider Embraer as a major player in THIS product set and a very good player as a partner.
At one stage our MoD clarified that they are not in a hurry to induct MRCA before 2017 and if they induct it will be done only after 2017 and by 2020 MRCAs will be starts to role out in IAF colours, so it will take another 5-6 years for selection, detail checking, price negotiations, commissions and others etc.,dinesha wrote:Govt to phase-out majority of MiG fighter aircraft by 2017
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/govt- ... 7/753750/0Against the backdrop of air crashes involving MiG fighters, the government on Wednesday said it was planning to phase-out the majority of the Russian-origin jets from the Indian Air Force by 2017 and replace them with modern aircraft.
Defence Minister A K Antony told Rajya Sabha that a number of modern aircraft such as the Su-30 MKI, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and the Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) would be procured to replace the squadrons of MiG 21s and MiG 23s.
The Air force have got a "clear-cut plan" to phase out these aircraft by 2017 and by the same time the induction of new aircraft like Sukhoi-30 MKI and, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will begin, Antony said while replying to a member's query on flight safety during Question Hour.
The Minister said the initial operational clearance for LCA has already been "successfully conducted" and it will be inducted in the Air Force "very soon".
On the proposal to procure 126 M-MRCA, Antony assured the members that the induction plan for the project was not lagging behind and will not take time up to 2020 to introduce these aircraft in the IAF.
He said that large scale acquisition of Sukhoi-30 MKI, LCA and the MMRCA will take place within the next few years and acknowledged that such an exercise could not take place in past due to "historical reasons".
The Defence Minister sought to allay apprehensions that the quality of aircraft spare parts being supplied to the country has deteriorated after the break-up of Soviet Union and that it could be a reason for the aircraft accidents.
He said "quality is all right" and there was no complaint regarding it by and large but admitted that after the disintegration of Soviet Union, there are "some slippages in delivery" of the spare parts as companies manufacturing the products shifted bases.
Antony said the government is trying to handle the problems related to time schedule of deliveries of spare parts.
A statement was also laid in the House in which the ministry gave details of aircraft accidents in response to a question by Congress member T M Selvaganapath.
The statement said 12 accidents of IAF aircraft took place during the last year in which 5 pilots, 11 service personnel and four civilians were killed while one such incident took place till February 18 in which no casualty was reported.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110222/j ... 617713.jspNew Delhi, Feb. 21: The US’s strong pitch to sell its fighter aircraft to India for an estimated $12 billion has run into a hurdle with the Indian Air Force telling the government that it does not favour the signing of agreements that risk compromising its operational secrecy.
Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik said in Yelahanka earlier this month that price negotiations for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal could start as early as next month and a contract would be signed by September. The setting of a deadline by the IAF chief has led to intensified lobbying by competitors and the governments backing them.
The Boeing-made F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin’s F-16 IN Super Viper (a variant of the F-16 Fighting Falcon) are two of the six competitors for the order. The others are Rafale (Dassault Aviation, France), Eurofighter Typhoon (a consortium of the UK, Italy, Germany and Spain), the Saab Gripen (Sweden) and the Russian MiG 35.
The IAF has indicated to the government that US-imposed conditionalities could lead to denial of even such crucial components in their aircraft such as the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. An AESA radar allows the pilot in a fighter jet to track more targets faster than older radars.
The tender issued by the Indian government when it invited the companies to participate in the competition had laid down that an AESA radar must be integrated with the aircraft that would seek to bag the order.
The IAF is particularly concerned about the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) that the US is pushing India to sign.
“The CISMOA is a communication agreement. We don’t necessarily have to sign that,” Air Chief Marshal Naik said.
But US ambassador Timothy Roemer, who was also at the air show in Yelahanka, said that the US “offers such agreements only to its closest allies and Nato partners”.
Another senior IAF officer said: “The CISMOA is necessary for airforces to communicate with the US easily. Why do we need to communicate with the US all the time?”
The AESA radar that the two US companies have offered in the Super Hornet and the Super Viper are made by Raytheon. Raytheon Asia president Admiral (retired) Walter Doran insists that the CISMOA would not be a hurdle.
He cites the initial Indian reservation over the signing of the End-User Monitoring Agreement, a pact that allows the US government to inspect the use of military equipment it has allowed to be sold.
“Two years ago that was such an issue. But now nobody even talks about it,” Doran said, emphasising that “as the US-India relationship grows these will cease to matter”.
US officials also cite the transfer last fortnight of the first of six C-130J-30 Super Hercules tactical airlifter to the IAF. But the US competitors for the IAF fighter aircraft order — such as the European firms — give the same example a different twist because the Super Hercules was delivered without some of the equipment that would have been available if the CISMOA was sealed.
Even if the government chooses one of the two competing US aircraft — after the IAF completed the flight evaluation trials for the six fighter aircraft last July — there would be questions on whether it is a payback for the clinching of the civilian nuclear pact. The US has been aggressively looking for billion-dollar orders from India to create jobs in its traditional industries, such as military aviation companies.
Raytheon, of all the US companies, has huge stakes in the Indian military orders. The company has more than 8,000 products. It practically opened the door for large-scale US military transfers to India when 12 artillery Firefinder An-TPQ/37 radars made by it were contracted by New Delhi in 2002.
For the F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Super Viper, Raytheon has offered to make and integrate not only the AESA radar but also electronic warfare (EW) suites including radar warning systems, a towed decoy system and electro-optical targeting flares.
The European and Russian competitors of the US companies are, in turn, trying to convince the Indian government that their weapons and systems will be delivered with “no strings attached”.
The IAF’s reservation on signing the CISMOA have particularly raised the hopes for the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Aviation’s Rafale in particular that have the least US content in their platforms after the Russians. (The US forbids exports of military hardware to Russia). The Saab Gripen is powered by a US-made engine (the GE 414) and has some avionics from the US that the Swedish company is telling the IAF will not be an issue because they would buy the equipment from the Americans off-the-shelf. The Russian MiG-35 has no US-made component but its absence at the airshow in Yelahanka this week reflects a loss of confidence in Moscow to bag the $12 billion MMRCA deal.
BANGALORE: Modernising its fleet of helicopters, the Indian Air Force on Thursday said it was looking to acquire more than 230 choppers in the near future.
Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told reporters at Aero India 2011, that the force is in the process of acquiring helicopters of different types and sizes in the next couple of years. "We are acquiring 12 AW 101 VVIP helicopters, trials for 22 attack choppers are completed, 80 MI-17 IV helicopters are being inducted and 50 odd would be added, trials for 12 heavy-lift choppers are also in the final stage and will be completed soon," he said.
Naik said the field evaluation trials (FETs) for procuring 197 helicopters for the Army and Navy were also over and the report was expected to be submitted in the next couple of weeks. Of the 197, IAF would receive over 55 helicopters. For the attack helicopters, Russian MI-28 and American Apache 64 D Longbow are facing each other. The IAF chief said the trials were over and a report was expected in the next two weeks.
Under the LUH programme, the Army has conducted trials of the Russian KA-226 and Eurocopter Fennec, and would send its report to the IAF soon. Commenting on reports suggesting that the US would offer high-end technology to India, the IAF chief said these reports should be taken "with a pinch of salt" as it was not known to whom such offers were made by the Americans. On the upgrades to be carried out on the Su-30MKI, Naik said the aircraft would have state-of-the-art equipment and HAL, DRDO and Russian manufacturers were involved in the development of the Aesa radar also for the air superiority fighter.
Govt to phase-out majority of MiG fighter aircraft by 2017
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/govt- ... 7/753750/0
Against the backdrop of air crashes involving MiG fighters, the government on Wednesday said it was planning to phase-out the majority of the Russian-origin jets from the Indian Air Force by 2017 and replace them with modern aircraft.
Defence Minister A K Antony told Rajya Sabha that a number of modern aircraft such as the Su-30 MKI, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and the Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) would be procured to replace the squadrons of MiG 21s and MiG 23s.
The Air force have got a "clear-cut plan" to phase out these aircraft by 2017 and by the same time the induction of new aircraft like Sukhoi-30 MKI and, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will begin, Antony said while replying to a member's query on flight safety during Question Hour.
The Minister said the initial operational clearance for LCA has already been "successfully conducted" and it will be inducted in the Air Force "very soon".
On the proposal to procure 126 M-MRCA, Antony assured the members that the induction plan for the project was not lagging behind and will not take time up to 2020 to introduce these aircraft in the IAF.
He said that large scale acquisition of Sukhoi-30 MKI, LCA and the MMRCA will take place within the next few years and acknowledged that such an exercise could not take place in past due to "historical reasons".
The Defence Minister sought to allay apprehensions that the quality of aircraft spare parts being supplied to the country has deteriorated after the break-up of Soviet Union and that it could be a reason for the aircraft accidents.
He said "quality is all right" and there was no complaint regarding it by and large but admitted that after the disintegration of Soviet Union, there are "some slippages in delivery" of the spare parts as companies manufacturing the products shifted bases.
Antony said the government is trying to handle the problems related to time schedule of deliveries of spare parts.
A statement was also laid in the House in which the ministry gave details of aircraft accidents in response to a question by Congress member T M Selvaganapath.
The statement said 12 accidents of IAF aircraft took place during the last year in which 5 pilots, 11 service personnel and four civilians were killed while one such incident took place till February 18 in which no casualty was reported.
MOD has gone mad.....this govt is now doing shit - every arm tender is being cancelled for long time...At one stage our MoD clarified that they are not in a hurry to induct MRCA before 2017 and if they induct it will be done only after 2017 and by 2020 MRCAs will be starts to role out in IAF colours, so it will take another 5-6 years for selection, detail checking, price negotiations, commissions and others etc.,
http://www.sify.com/news/iaf-lost-40-pl ... ecfdj.htmlNew Delhi, Feb 23 (IANS) The Indian Air Force (IAF) lost 40 planes and 16 of its pilots in air crashes in the past three years, the Rajya Sabha was told Wednesday.
'During the last three years, from Feb 1, 2008, to Feb 17, 2011, 40 accidents of IAF aircrafts have taken place. In these accidents, 16 pilots, 24 service personnel and five civilians have lost their lives,' Defence Minister A.K. Antony said in a written reply to the upper house during question hour.
Antony said every IAF aircraft accident was thoroughly investigated by a court of inquiry to ascertain the cause and remedial measures were taken accordingly to check their recurrence.
Apart from this, the IAF had taken various measures relating to strengthening the aviation safety organisation, streamlining of accident and incident reporting procedure, analytical studies and quality audits of the aircraft fleets to identify vulnerable areas and institute remedial measures to reduce aircraft accidents, he said.
'Visit of all flying bases by senior aerospace safety functionaries of the IAF is undertaken to enhance aviation safety. Measures like Operational Risk Management and Crew Resource Management have been implemented to generate a safe flying culture,' he added.
He said the accident prevention programmes had given an added thrust to identify risk-prone and hazardous areas specific to the aircraft fleets and operational environment to ensure safe practices and procedures.
To another question, he said that in 2010, the IAF reported 12 air crashes and in these five pilots, 11 armed forces personnel and four civilians were killed.
From Jan 1 to Feb 18 this year, there was one air crash, but no pilot, service personnel or civilian was killed, he added.
A MiG-21 fighter jet had crashed Feb 4 this year, 140 km off Gwalior airfield while enroute to Jamnagar. No casualty was reported in the accident.