Indian Naval Discussion

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 24 Feb 2011 06:53

MDL, DCNS Delay Scorpene Submarines Delivery; First Inductions in 2015

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 24 Feb 2011 07:25

John wrote:
Rahul M wrote:patent BS. upholder was never seriously considered by us. we were busy with building type 209 and associated scandals.
considering their record in canada can't say we lost out on much.
In Early 90s IIRC there was plan to procure 6 Upholders but instead went with more Kilo's.

India can let out a breath of relief on that issue. Every time I went to esquimalt (Canada's Pacific fleet base) that sub was always in the dry dock. Incase you are wondering how I got inside, I was with the Royal Canadian Sea Cadets and we went on the YAG cruises.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Feb 2011 07:33

John wrote:
Rahul M wrote:patent BS. upholder was never seriously considered by us. we were busy with building type 209 and associated scandals.
considering their record in canada can't say we lost out on much.
In Early 90s IIRC there was plan to procure 6 Upholders but instead went with more Kilo's.

true but not with any particular seriousness. but that doesn't make "They were sold initially to India, and then given a licence to build." any less BS.

nits · Post by **nits** » 24 Feb 2011 09:33

Warships being sent to evacuate Indians from Libya

Warships of Indian Navy are being despatched to evacuate Indians from Libya as the situation in the North African country continued to deteriorate because of clashes between supporters and opponents of Muammar Gaddafi.

The ministry of external affairs asked the defence ministry to ready the warships to sail for Libya. The exact number of warships needed for the operation, which is likely to be a largescale one, and from where they will be despatched is being worked out.

Chinese news agencies reported on Wednesday that Beijing managed to evacuate close to 3,000 people to neighbouring Tunisia by road.

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 24 Feb 2011 09:34

Gurinder P wrote: India can let out a breath of relief on that issue. Every time I went to esquimalt (Canada's Pacific fleet base) that sub was always in the dry dock. Incase you are wondering how I got inside, I was with the Royal Canadian Sea Cadets and we went on the YAG cruises.

Hey Gurinder ... im ex-SCC as well ... although from TS Jawahar

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2011 10:04

Ships will be used to bring them to Egypt and from there to India by AI. evacuating and accounting for 18,000 indians there will definitely need some large scale ops - something like INS Jalashwa would be a good thing to have onsite to provide medical care, security and food to the chartered passenger ships.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 24 Feb 2011 10:11

I wonder why evacuation by sea is being preferred over flights... are there many more people of Indian citizenship in Libya, or is it just because its more difficult for flights?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2011 10:34

tripoli airspace is closed by qadhafi regime. I suspect most indians would be in and around tripoli. a half dozen large construction firms were doing big projects in libya.

if airports like benghazi in rebel held territory could be deemed safe, i am sure AI will fly in there.

the kind of sitatuon where a CBG for air cover and long haul transports of the AN124/C17 suitable for rough infra + batallions of paras could play a useful evac role.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 24 Feb 2011 10:35

akimalik wrote:
Gurinder P wrote: India can let out a breath of relief on that issue. Every time I went to esquimalt (Canada's Pacific fleet base) that sub was always in the dry dock. Incase you are wondering how I got inside, I was with the Royal Canadian Sea Cadets and we went on the YAG cruises.
Hey Gurinder ... im ex-SCC as well ... although from TS Jawahar

Hey dude, nice to meet another brother from another mother

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 24 Feb 2011 10:38

Singha wrote:tripoli airspace is closed by qadhafi regime. I suspect most indians would be in and around tripoli. a half dozen large construction firms were doing big projects in libya.

if airports like benghazi in rebel held territory could be deemed safe, i am sure AI will fly in there.

the kind of sitatuon where a CBG for air cover and long haul transports of the AN124/C17 suitable for rough infra + batallions of paras could play a useful evac role.

Personally it would be nice if Viraat could go along too, since I hear that the Libyan air force is doing unrelentless bombings in residential districts and anything that moves, so the harriers can provide some CAP support and this could also be their last hurrah.

silod · Post by **silod** » 24 Feb 2011 11:00

All Gurus,

As we keep on discussing Naval issues on this forum, I would like to have an answer for a mathematical problem that is related to the day-to-day operation of any Navy/Coast Guard. Please answer.
<snip>

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 24 Feb 2011 11:34

Gurinder P wrote:
Singha wrote:tripoli airspace is closed by qadhafi regime. I suspect most indians would be in and around tripoli. a half dozen large construction firms were doing big projects in libya.

if airports like benghazi in rebel held territory could be deemed safe, i am sure AI will fly in there.

the kind of sitatuon where a CBG for air cover and long haul transports of the AN124/C17 suitable for rough infra + batallions of paras could play a useful evac role.
Personally it would be nice if Viraat could go along too, since I hear that the Libyan air force is doing unrelentless bombings in residential districts and anything that moves, so the harriers can provide some CAP support and this could also be their last hurrah.

Singhaji.. that essentially means India declares war on Libiya/Gaddafi.. I dont think he will step down so easily which means we will create an enemy unnecessarily and that can affect the safety of Indians there.. In situations like this diplomacy may be the best option.. Also IN ships are capable of taking care of any Libiyan AF planes if they dare to make a stupid move which is unlikely..

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 24 Feb 2011 12:11

Warships being sent to evacuate Indians from Libya
It's again the IN to the rescue.

Last time during the Lebanon crisis, there was a very interesting article by one Mr.Ashutosh.
Indian Navy gatecrashes British Beirut fiesta
That's the way articles need to be written. Super stuff.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2011 12:31

they should perhaps charter a couple of med cruise ships lying idle in egypt (due to revolution there) and evac around 2000-3000 in one trip. make arrangements with Egypt and Israel to fly AI/IAF planes to some coastal places and bring them back to mumbai and delhi drop offs.

all in all, quite a messy affair moving 18K people halfway around the world on short notice.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 Feb 2011 14:03

uddu wrote: Last time during the Lebanon crisis, there was a very interesting article by one Mr.Ashutosh.
Indian Navy gatecrashes British Beirut fiesta
That's the way articles need to be written. Super stuff.

very nice.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 24 Feb 2011 21:34

SriSri wrote:MDL, DCNS Delay Scorpene Submarines Delivery; First Inductions in 2015

what the hell is IN & GoI doing ? they will be inducting first submarine after 15 years of last sub they had inducted.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 Feb 2011 21:53

Indian Navy deploys Dornier 228 surveillance aircraft in Seychelles

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Feb 2011 22:06

Interview:Director of the Federal Service for military-technical cooperation of Russia Mikhail Dmitriev on arms exports
Source: newspaper " Kommersant "
Author: Ivan Konovalov

But our military-technical cooperation with India is not without any problems . Take at least a draft military transport aircraft (MTA) After all the years has work not begun?

Of course, it has long remained on paper, actually, we started it two and a half years ago. Now it is the practical stage. A division of United Aircraft Corporation they have directly engaged in Joint venture. This is not just a sketch of work - this is the beginning of a particular activity.

What if the Indians do not have to again pay more for the heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Gorshkov?

-I have answered this question I think that in this case it is all agreed. The problem was not just about money, the problem was in redefining the goals. In fact, at some point we started to make a new ship. And had to change the program, and then under this program, additional money was needed And, unfortunately, even after the long negotiation process, the work did not stop, however, the pace were not what we wanted. Now, we have agreed on everything. I think we can hold in both time and cost parameters. We will do everything planned.

when is it now scheduled to handover this ship to Indian Navy?

By the end of 2012. This is recorded in documents, and we're going to do this really. between 2011-2012 timeframe the ship will be trailed.

Why was still delayed the transfer of Indians multipurpose nuclear submarine "Seal"?

Everything is ready, and there are no problems. This is the final stage. No additional work is required. Indian crew has long worked with Russian instructors and performed several tasks. There is no concern on either the Russian nor the Indian side.

John · Post by **John** » 24 Feb 2011 22:08

kmc_chacko wrote:
SriSri wrote:MDL, DCNS Delay Scorpene Submarines Delivery; First Inductions in 2015
what the hell is IN & GoI doing ? they will be inducting first submarine after 15 years of last sub they had inducted.

No real surprise here i think it was 5 years ago or so i said here that i would be surprised if any Scorpene are inducted before 2015. I mentioned these factors:

1. Unlike with HDW, the only country that has locally manufactured DCN subs was Spain and Pakistan (that didn't go well either).
2. At least the first submarine should have been built in France and second, third should have been assembled by MDL. Which would have helped us iron out any kinks.
3. Should have also have set up another line of submarines (either modified U-209s or Amurs) which would have given us fall back plan and leverage when DCN refused to play ball.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 24 Feb 2011 22:41

Only way IN can make up the depleted force is increase the order from existing 6 to 12.
IN needs atleast 30-40 diesel subs and another 15-20 Nuclear subs making submarine fleet of 45-60 to face two front war & to project itself as blue water navy. If IN inducts Scorpène class submarines from 2015 onwards and at the same time it will have to decommission the existing its older subs. Therefore new subs will replace the older subs in individually.

So by 2020 IN might maintain 10-12 subs which will be not even sufficient to counter threat from Pakistan then how can IN face Chinese Navy.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 Feb 2011 22:49

You see, the 2015 figure is not new. As explained by Maz Dock people, the first sub is the most difficult to build. Once the first is built, the follow on's will come faster. More or less, the final delivery will be same as originally intended.

John · Post by **John** » 24 Feb 2011 23:41

chackojoseph wrote:You see, the 2015 figure is not new. As explained by Maz Dock people, the first sub is the most difficult to build. Once the first is built, the follow on's will come faster. More or less, the final delivery will be same as originally intended.

The reason i said 2015 was because MDL has never completed anything within 8 years

As for the rest i am doubtful the schedule seems bit optimistic. If there is any issues found during trials of the first Scorpene will throw wrench into whole schedule.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 25 Feb 2011 07:03

If IN had new 20-30 Subs and then IN wanted to induct new subs then delay would be acceptable but here situation is different. IN is already facing shortage of subs and over that delay in induction of new subs.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 25 Feb 2011 07:55

INS Jalashwa to Evacuate Indians
The Indian Express

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Feb 2011 08:09

John wrote:The reason i said 2015 was because MDL has never completed anything within 8 years As for the rest i am doubtful the schedule seems bit optimistic. If there is any issues found during trials of the first Scorpene will throw wrench into whole schedule.

We are already in the middle of delay of Scorpene project. So, the info we are getting is realtime and not an estimate. So have faith. Besides, Murphy's law "what has to go wrong will go wrong. Just sit back and watch the tamasha.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 25 Feb 2011 08:23

we need 3 mistral types of ships

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Feb 2011 09:42

more details from TOI:
Jalashwa and 2 delhi class ddg are being sent for 4000 mile trip. surely a fleet tanker will accompany. the delhi's can only hold 300 people each (in heli hangers I would guess) so total 1200+600=1800 people per trip can be brought out from libya to alexandria.
if all of the 18K indians need to leave quickly, we need something better.

the UN has to come down like a ton of bricks on tripoli to permit evac flights from tripoli following which AI can start a direct airbridge and also IAF IL76 can evac to Alexandria for AI to pickup more.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 25 Feb 2011 14:58

^^^
It would have been economical if Indians had been evacuated to malta or egypt and from there flown to India. India holds the record for the worlds largest civilian airlift, when it air-lifted Indians from west asia following saddams invasion of kuwait in the early 1990s.

nits · Post by **nits** » 25 Feb 2011 15:29

Austin Sir - Can you please give link to the full intervirew...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Feb 2011 15:54

nits wrote:Austin Sir - Can you please give link to the full intervirew...

link

Most part are not relevant to India so I didn't post those ,any ways enjoy

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 26 Feb 2011 01:03

Austin wrote:
nits wrote:Austin Sir - Can you please give link to the full intervirew...
link

Most part are not relevant to India so I didn't post those ,any ways enjoy

Russian text says that Nerpa is delayed because painting of interior and some other minor items are not finished.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Feb 2011 13:34

SNaik wrote:Russian text says that Nerpa is delayed because painting of interior and some other minor items are not finished.

Yeah even I found it funny he mentions that ,may be we need to send Saif Ali Khan ( Saifu

) to do the final touches on interior

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Feb 2011 14:52

^^^

Are we looking at another 6 months delay, in terms of the delivery of the boat.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 26 Feb 2011 17:38

India Secures The Seychelles

India is sending a Dornier 228 maritime reconnaissance aircraft to the island nation of Seychelles, to help in dealing with Somali pirates. This aircraft will remain for at least two years. Last year, India had offered to give Seychelles a Dornier 228 and two Chetak helicopters for anti-piracy duty, but tiny Seychelles preferred that India simply operate this equipment on their territory until the Somali piracy threat is gone. India has already sent a naval patrol boat and one Chetak helicopter to the Seychelles to help with anti-piracy patrol. Indian warships are also coming by more frequently.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 26 Feb 2011 20:42

Sea of secrets

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 Feb 2011 02:39

India to issue $11 bn tender for six more submarines

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 27 Feb 2011 06:48

SNaik wrote: Russian text says that Nerpa is delayed because painting of interior and some other minor items are not finished.

Is this for real?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Feb 2011 08:31

What he says is the submarine is ready , the painting of interior ,minor stuff etc is related to the way Indian would want it to be. Just the personal touch

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 27 Feb 2011 18:29

VinodTK wrote:India Secures The Seychelles
India is sending a Dornier 228 maritime reconnaissance aircraft to the island nation of Seychelles, to help in dealing with Somali pirates. This aircraft will remain for at least two years. Last year, India had offered to give Seychelles a Dornier 228 and two Chetak helicopters for anti-piracy duty, but tiny Seychelles preferred that India simply operate this equipment on their territory until the Somali piracy threat is gone. India has already sent a naval patrol boat and one Chetak helicopter to the Seychelles to help with anti-piracy patrol. Indian warships are also coming by more frequently.

I think, one Dornier-228 and Two Chetak's are wooefully short of scanning ocean right from the africa to India because distance and endurance are the important factors for tackling Piracy meance. Rather we should need to design Patrol Boats specifically for this purpose.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 27 Feb 2011 18:32

Juggi G wrote:INS Jalashwa to Evacuate Indians
The Indian Express

I don't know, but how inefficient we are to the lives of thousands of Indians working in Arab nations. We should have deployed this assets with the onset of Tunisian uprising. Now it will take atleast more then two weeks to reach libya, even Air evacuation is very difficult task given its limitation. We are really falling short on Air Transport aircraft to evacute close of 18000 indians stuck in hostile Libya.