Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

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Sanku
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

rohitvats wrote:
May dear good sir, you're displaying your ignorance here.

AUCRT is for an inducted system - Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials -to understand the logistics requirement of the type. It is user trials which are conducted prior to induction of the tank. AUCRT is a different set of test all together which happens after the system is inducted.

However, T-90 was okayed for induction by the Indian Army before their trials in Indian conditions. It was asked to conduct trials in Indian conditions before taking a call...and guess what, it passed. All this is documented in the Parliamentary Standing Committe on Defense Reports. Tanks don't pass AUCRT before getting green signal for induction.
My good Sir.

AUCRT is not necessarily a post induction test, all it needs is that the system be ready for induction if needed.


I have posted link many times before, and can do so again.
I have claimed, and will claim based on the same reports you talk of, that AUCRT for T 90 were done BEFORE the contract was signed. While PNC was ongoing to be exact. This was exactly where
1) Russian TI was rejected.
2) Shotra was rejected.
3) Remaining components were verified.

AUCRT for T 90 -- tests in Rajasthan and Punjab/Haryana on various parameters.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Anujan »

Sanku wrote:
Anujan wrote: Define "nimble" ? Faster? Lower ground pressure? Fording deeper? Crossing longer trenches? Climbing steeper gradient? Which is more "nimble" ? A bicycle or a motorbike? So this whole question of "bulked up" vs "light and nimble" is quite misleading.
I think we have defined nimble more than once, it is a system which meets its primary goals, with the lowest possible complexity of operation and logistical overhead. Quick to deploy and maintain, and takes punishment without ceasing to work.
I think we are shifting goalposts here. So a heavier tank with lower complexity and better logistics will be more nimble than a lighter tank with higher complexity and worse logistics? So does it now become "bulked up and nimble" vs "light and not so nimble" argument?

Furthermore are we now back to arguing against Arjun only on the basis of logistics?

Secondly, by that account, asking for things like active protection and Gas turbine/Diesel hybrid in FMBT makes it complex and not so nimble? And this is despite any weight advantages and higher horsepower engine it might have?

How about something like EF Typhoon? Nimble in europe (better logistics) not nimble in India (no logistics yet?) Surely without MMR, LCA is the most nimble aircraft India has?
You might question the very usefulness of tanks -- that discussion is pointless.
Oh no, saying that a wide variety of solutions can exist is NOT questioning the usefulness of tanks, merely saying
1) the biggest and heaviest tank you can build IS NOT the only armor/armor busting solution, tanks are but one of many solutions which are all needed.
2) There are multiple solutions even with tank design just as for any other mil/eng system.
This was in reply to your: "I wonder if heavy tanks mean anything much in a world where top attack, tandem warhead fire and forget missiles are going to gain ground."

The only defense against top-attack tandem warheads are hard and soft-kill mechanisms -- active and passive protection. For which you need space. And engine power. And more protection.
Not necessarily, you can trade off, you can reduce front armor for example and add other stuff. All eng systems are trade-offs.
While I agree with the general statement that "all systems are tradeoffs", I personally find it hard to believe that a tank like the T90 can be better protected with the same weight by shifting armor from the front to the top :| They cant even fit an APU because there is no place to put it!
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by pralay »

Aww,
d_berwal wrote: Now for all of you who believe in the propaganda that T-90 TI sight is worthless and does not work
Everything Indian journalists publish is propaganda unless some foreign magazine or reporter publishes it. isn't it berwal ji ?
d_berwal wrote: - Impressed by the performance of TI on T-90, PA is trying its best to get the same model into their AKII. (assumption based on pak media reports)
Wow, this is actually a benis thread material sir ji :rotfl:
we shall and we must trust paki reporters but not any Indian, not even our defense minister :P
We can see how low one can fall to protect their loved ones :p
Shall we select f-16 in mmrca because paki have inducted it?
d_berwal wrote: - Most of it is propaganda against T-90 by DDM who have new found love for ARJUN and are trying to make it a ARJUN Vs T-90 issues. As it makes it easier to get headlines and get more hits on their blogs, Most of them just recycle the previous reports and lack the credibility.
Yeh yeh sir ji,
We shall now start reading paki news papers and channels as they are most credible ones.
So do you also believe that kashmir is all paki land, because paki media is reporting so?
Do you also wish to surrender all our territory to pakistan if they report so?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Tanaji »

MUST ALWAYS DO MULTI_VENDOR != YOU ARE NOT STOPPED FROM MULTI_VENDOR.
I agree.. but MoD/ IA in their wisdom did not follow the multi vendor process. No laws were broken for sure, but the fact remains that a HUGE contract was given without competitive bidding.... just like the C17. So there is precedence for awarding single vendor contracts, one laid down by MoD itself.

If its kosher for Russians, it is kosher for Americans :P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by vina »

Sanku wrote:The only improvement suggested by IAF was when it emerged around 2003-5 that outer pylons were rated to carry obsolete R-60 at max “g”, and the pylon rating was increased to carry R-73E, that is around 60 kg heavier. Surely this doesn’t result in ~1000 kg empty weight increase. Similarly, OBOGS development was initiated for Jaguar DARIN upgrades and incorporated for Tejas. It weighs much lesser than bottled oxygen.
Sanku Maharaj. I usually dont respond to your posts because it is simply beyond any point to apply logic and reason to you, but let me try again.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO RECORD/ADMISSION anywhere from official sources that the wings were stiffened (in torsion mainly) because of the newer weapon requirements from the original ASR. DDM and the rest of the world picked it up precisely after a certain poster called Vina (er.. yours truly) speculated here in BRF that the reason why we are NOT seeing carriage and separation trials were because of aeromechanical problems because the original weapon specs were upgraded and hence there was a wing redesign and that led to delays of a year or so.

A poster called Sivab who was a structural engg in ADA earlier posted yes, that was so (after that he doesnt post here anymore) and there was a wing redesign after the weapon specs were updated after the TD phase was over and the PV and LSP phases were beginning!

Now , what makes you conclude that the change in the ASRs for the weapon loads specified ONLY that the wing tip missiles had to be something else other than the R-60 ? How do you know that the pylon capacities were not increased for other stations ? Do you have access to the ASR ?

Also, I do think that the 5500kg empty weigth was the target for the TDs. Now for LSP and the production versions, those are really completely different animals under the skin and are operational fighters. The newer specs will account for a lot of difference!
The Marut was conceived to meet an Air Staff Requirement (ASR), that called for a multi-role aircraft suitable for both high-altitude interception and low-level ground attack. The specified performance attributes called for a speed of Mach 2.0 at altitude, a ceiling of 60,000 feet (18,290 m) and a combat radius of 500 miles (805 km).


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: . The English Electric lighting can supercruise and easily hit mach 2.5 and so could the F-104 and have a higher ceiling than 60K feet. So does that mean that all British and American fighters that came after the EE lightning (including the Tornado, Typhoon, all the Teen Series fighters and F-35 ) don't meet the ASR of the Marut (60K ceiling and Mach 2 and 500 NM range?) and are hence "obsolete" or whatever you were trying to convey?
Furthermore, the ASR demanded that the basic design be suitable for adaptation as an advanced trainer, an all-weather fighter and for 'navalization' as a shipboard aircraft.

That is the specs you dreamed up last night in your sleep!. Fact is the Navy approached the ADA for the LCA to examine if it can be Navalized after the TD phase and the ADA jumped at the offer!. Nowhere in the intial specs were it to be a carrier board fighter ever mentioned . Go search through all the records and the history of the LCA Navy!.
Mach 1.8 and 16,000 meters respectively. Achieved Tejas performance is Mach 1.6 and 15,000 meters. IAF has not complained about this.
Why will the IAF "complain". That is the desing and requirements they signed off on!.
So to set the record straight, the IAF specified pretty normal and standard performance criteria for Tejas. Let’s lay the myth to rest that IAF ASR was initially MiG-21 specs midway upgraded by IAF to higher specs.
Well, I know I am wasting my time here. The LCA ASRs are incredibly tough. The service ceiling and top Mach no is not the key things and infact the most easily achiveable in any design. The LCA specs are light years ahead of the Mig 21 specs in terms of maneuverability, range and field performance.
Simpler fighters means using simpler means to achieve superior ends.. That is the challenge and the beauty of engineering. The present Tejas project is a classic example of complex means achieving standard ends.
Well, big words don't make one an engineer, esp when I dont see any logical thinking or rather the lack of it that makes one wonder if you can do any real engineering other than word smithing!
Simple-means-superior-capability projects are like the Godavari frigates, using the capable Leander hull-form, and broadening the beam for two helicopters.

:rotfl: :rotfl: I am sure you have no idea what a waterline is or a buttock is and then we have simplistic notion of "wider beam" (err. forgeting about length) that gave you a magical 2 helicopter capability, while attaining top speed with the same machinery as the Leander!. And that the displacement grew by a thousand tons or so and the Godavari is essentially a brand new hull form is lost on you. Ah well, like I said no point trying to tell you this.

Complex-means-standard-capability projects are the Zumwalt destroyers carrying same VLS and Radars that the Kolkata does. Is the complex hullform worth the marginal incremental capability growth?
So, good engineers do the assessment on pros and cons of maneuverability of stable fighters vis-à-vis unstable fighters. Are not stable fighters maneuverable? What is the risk of developing complex control laws vis-à-vis the incremental maneuverability offered? What benefits do composites offer vis-à-vis metals? Can not the same performance be eked out by metal airframes?
I already posted on all this earlier the LCA thread . To cut the long story short and puncture your make believe engg world, yes, in this day and age, you CANT do it without an unstable design and a large percentage of composites. Heck, even large commercial airlines are going for augmented stability designs since 1980 (for fuel efficiency alone)!
And the Gripen is built mostly with “heavier” metal and Tejas with “lighter” composites. Good proof of the miracle of engineering using lighter composites and coming up with something slightly lighter than Gripen :-) Nothing against DRDO and nothing against composites, but the results don’t match the initial hype of composites. So maybe using metal wasn’t that bad of an idea after all?
Gripen is a metal airplane ? The Swedes will be very very cross if you say that. It has something like 35 to 40% composites!. Hello, wake up and smell the coffee.
Now, many praise the Navy for being more indigenous. But how many know the tight project governance exercised by Navy chaps that prevent the DRDO chaps from doing esoteric intellectual exercises not proportional with benefits realized
Yet despite everything there we still don’t learn. Dileep mentioned in some thread that the civil airliner RTA specs are higher than Boeing 787 Dreamliner. No IAF is drafting the ASR here. Whom will you blame there when such impractical specs won’t be met?
The IAF is going to draft the specs for an civilian airliner ? That is laughable. If you get in Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa, British Air , Emirates or any top airline and ask them what kind of plane they will want to buy, guess what kind of specs you will get , yes, something that will be tougher than what is out there today ! Get it ?

If you cant make the best, you cant sell in the civil world. Simple. Have a nice day. KF and JetAir will import he best that is out there and beat the cr*p out of any competitor that flies a gas guzzling pig that you manage to put out in an all metal airframe with 25 year old tech engines.
Anyways, in hindsight, all is well as long as the Tejas performs. And DRDO has learnt its lessons and is today focused on delivering capability rather than tom-tomming research hype. And outright inaccuracies need to stop that OBOGS & internal jammer added weight, or IAF initially had MiG-21 specs that they later enhanced.
After seeing the pics of the LCA with the inflight refuelling probe, you can bet the last dollar that you have that the operational MK1 WILL have an OBOGS and not gas cylinders . No way you can top up oxygen in cylinders when you have unlimited endurance with the inflight refueling.

Now write this imposition a hundred times. You might see the light.
The Weapon specs were revised from the TD to Operational fighter. The R-60 is not the only weapon that the fighter carried.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

Anujan wrote: Furthermore are we now back to arguing against Arjun only on the basis of logistics?
First and foremost, when I chose to reply to your post, it was only to highlight what I was saying viz "there is no ONE solution, but MANY solutions, which are different"

Personally I have never seen a conflict between Arjun and T 90 in any case.
This was in reply to your: "I wonder if heavy tanks mean anything much in a world where top attack, tandem warhead fire and forget missiles are going to gain ground."
Yes, I think a 50 Tonne tank, with reduced steel armor and more protection measures may actually be more successful. The evolution of tank for protection will not be a 80-100 Tonne monster.

That is what I meant.
While I agree with the general statement that "all systems are tradeoffs", I personally find it hard to believe that a tank like the T90 can be better protected with the same weight by shifting armor from the front to the top :| They cant even fit an APU because there is no place to put it!
I am not saying that T 90 is "better protected than Arjun" what I have said is that, T 90 and Arjun would be both roughly equally vulnerable from top-attack, thus to an extent negating Arjun's advantage in frontal armor in a scenario where top attack proliferates.

That is all.

However T 90 does have a variety of active countermeasure already, and seems to rely more on a hybrid approach (although not in Indian version) which in philosophy appears to be the route many tanks will take in future, esp considering that making the tank more bulked up is not going to help (as seen by IDF as well)
Last edited by Sanku on 28 Feb 2011 15:20, edited 1 time in total.
Sanku
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

vina wrote: Sanku Maharaj. I usually dont respond to your posts because it is simply beyond any point to apply logic and reason to you, but let me try again.
:eek: :shock:

That was tsarkar's post, which I only x-posted to talk about the ISSUES involved in design and DRDO forces relationship.
:-?

You really need to actually read and be informed rather than put opinions not grounded in reality. Well worded but nevertheless not real.

Do start reading with a open mind. There is hope.
Last edited by Sanku on 28 Feb 2011 15:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

Tanaji wrote:
MUST ALWAYS DO MULTI_VENDOR != YOU ARE NOT STOPPED FROM MULTI_VENDOR.
I agree.. but MoD/ IA in their wisdom did not follow the multi vendor process. No laws were broken for sure, but the fact remains that a HUGE contract was given without competitive bidding.... just like the C17. So there is precedence for awarding single vendor contracts, one laid down by MoD itself.

If its kosher for Russians, it is kosher for Americans :P
NO the rules have changed 2002. NOW It is not Kosher for Israeli's even (pun intended) strictly speaking.

:P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by negi »

I can understand newbies posing questions or raising a thing or two which for rest of us here might be a done and dusted stuff, however can someone explain what is this logic behind old timers like d_berwal digging up old issues and re posting them, moreover Sanku ji has too joined the party ? And now we have C-17 and LCA too being discussed here. Jai Ho indeed.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Sanku wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
May dear good sir, you're displaying your ignorance here.

AUCRT is for an inducted system - Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials -to understand the logistics requirement of the type. It is user trials which are conducted prior to induction of the tank. AUCRT is a different set of test all together which happens after the system is inducted.

However, T-90 was okayed for induction by the Indian Army before their trials in Indian conditions. It was asked to conduct trials in Indian conditions before taking a call...and guess what, it passed. All this is documented in the Parliamentary Standing Committe on Defense Reports. Tanks don't pass AUCRT before getting green signal for induction.
My good Sir,

AUCRT is not necessarily a post induction test, all it needs is that the system be ready for induction if needed.


I have posted link many times before, and can do so again.

I have claimed, and will claim based on the same reports you talk of, that AUCRT for T 90 were done BEFORE the contract was signed. While PNC was ongoing to be exact. This was exactly where

1) Russian TI was rejected.
2) Shotra was rejected.
3) Remaining components were verified.

AUCRT for T 90 -- tests in Rajasthan and Punjab/Haryana on various parameters.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Now, this really takes the cake. You're insulting the intelligence of the people here. Please ask your T-90 fanboy buddy, d_berwal, what AUCRT is? You believed him on other inputs - I think you'll believe him on this one as well.

AUCRT is after induction and not prior to that - IA did AUCRT of Arjun after it was inducted and passed user trials. Similarly, the russian systems were rejected in user trials and not in AUCRT.

BTW, it was PNC which asked for trials in India after IA had okayed the induction of system based on trials in Siberia.

Read this from Business-Standard:
In fact, the army has already accepted the Arjun for introduction into service, based upon its driving and firing performance over the years. After firing trials in summer 2006, the trial report (written by the army) said: "The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt."

The ongoing trials in Pokhran that the army is citing are Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT). In these, two Arjun tanks were run almost non-stop for 3,000 kilometres, not to judge performance, but to evaluate the tank's requirement of spare parts, fuel and lubricants during its entire service life
AUCRT happens after induction - please stop this BS.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

negi wrote:I can understand newbies posing questions or raising a thing or two which for rest of us here might be a done and dusted stuff, however can someone explain what is this logic behind old timers like d_berwal digging up old issues and re posting them, moreover Sanku ji has too joined the party ? And now we have C-17 and LCA too being discussed here. Jai Ho indeed.
Yes, I plead guilty to that. We are rehashing old stuff. I guess every time there is no news/possible worry about Arjun, a spate of bloodletting happens.

We should hold our breaths and hang on, but then the entire forum must exercise self restraint, not just us oldies.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

Sanku wrote:
In which case you should send a mail to admins of the forum and put this matter up for collective consensus of all mods.

Kindly consider it seriously.
i plan to do that, but how do i approach admins what is the email
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

rohitvats wrote: AUCRT is after induction and not prior to that - IA did AUCRT of Arjun after it was inducted and passed user trials. Similarly, the russian systems were rejected in user trials and not in AUCRT.

BTW, it was PNC which asked for trials in India after IA had okayed the induction of system based on trials in Siberia.
Let me get this?

"User trials" happened but not "Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials" is that what you are saying?

So you agree that IA carried out "User trials which were not Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability trials" trails in 1999 in Rajsthan and Haryana?

Please let me know if I understand you correctly?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

d_berwal wrote:
Sanku wrote:
In which case you should send a mail to admins of the forum and put this matter up for collective consensus of all mods.

Kindly consider it seriously.
i plan to do that, but how do i approach admins what is the email
There is a contact webmaster link on BRF, webmasterATbharat-rakshakDOTcom Please correct the email, you can use this. Or use the forum feedback thread, or report your own post and ask it to be submitted to ALL mods for consideration.

On the few occasions that I have done this, I have done all the above, just to be safe and make sure the message did not get lost in the noise.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

All I'm saying is that AUCRT happened after the user trials and induction of the tank into service in Indian Army.

It cannot happen before user trials and both are not one and the same.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

rohitvats wrote:All I'm saying is that AUCRT happened after the user trials and induction of the tank into service in Indian Army.

It cannot happen before user trials and both are not one and the same.
As far as is known information, for T 90 the user trials included reliability tests. I had posted links before, and I will look for them again.

In which case whether they were user tests and reliability test, or formal AUCRT is merely a nomenclature issue.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

Sanku wrote: There is a contact webmaster link on BRF, webmasterATbharat-rakshakDOTcom Please correct the email, you can use this. Or use the forum feedback thread, or report your own post and ask it to be submitted to ALL mods for consideration.

On the few occasions that I have done this, I have done all the above, just to be safe and make sure the message did not get lost in the noise.
posted in feedback thread, hoping admins will allow it
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Sanku, it is not nomenclature.

AUCRT is done for a specific reason - no one is testing the accuracy of the gun or the ability of FCS to withstand heat in Indian conditions or the accuracy of the ATGM or fording capability.....they are testing the logistic requirement (spare parts and POL requirement) of the system. The two are vastly different things.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

d_berwal wrote:
Sanku wrote: There is a contact webmaster link on BRF, webmasterATbharat-rakshakDOTcom Please correct the email, you can use this. Or use the forum feedback thread, or report your own post and ask it to be submitted to ALL mods for consideration.

On the few occasions that I have done this, I have done all the above, just to be safe and make sure the message did not get lost in the noise.
posted in feedback thread, hoping admins will allow it
send an email to the webmaster. few admins/mods check the feedback thread regularly.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

rohitvats wrote:Sanku, it is not nomenclature.

AUCRT is done for a specific reason - no one is testing the accuracy of the gun or the ability of FCS to withstand heat in Indian conditions or the accuracy of the ATGM or fording capability.....they are testing the logistic requirement (spare parts and POL requirement) of the system. The two are vastly different things.
I believe they are linked/overlap, in usage and reliability trials as well as AUCRT, they ALSO (apart from what you said) test, the functionality (such as gun accuracy) after extensive use.

Say -- How many rounds can I fire before gun needs replacement or accuracy deteriorates (due to barrel damage) -- this will be part of reliability trials in both modes. AFAIK.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by chackojoseph »

d_berwal wrote:Now for all of you who believe in the propaganda that T-90 TI sight is worthless and does not work, please keep on doing so:.... As it makes it easier to get headlines and get more hits on their blogs, Most of them just recycle the previous reports and lack the credibility.

If you read some posts back, the russian minister while ordering the French TI sights has admitted that the Russian ones are not good. So, the russian minister is also filling up his blog?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by chackojoseph »

I just re-read the entire thing as well as the links he posted for permission.

It sounds that "if there are no blow out panels, Arjun has same risk as T-90."

Which is untrue.

I have said this few posts back. Arjun crew sits inside the turret, which is insulated. its ammo boxes are insulated.

In T-90, the crew does not sit inside the turret, but, directly above the ammo. if penetrated, a blow can kill the crew. Both ammo canister and the partition of T-90 has insulation, but, the problem is that the crew sits directly above the ammo box.

Arjun crew has more chances of surviving.

If there is a blow out panel, Arjun Crew will have more and more chance of surving.

I will keep a query to morrow if Arjun has blow out panels or not. But, irrespective, the above logic means that Arjun crew has more chances of survival.

=== added later

Arjun has integrated fire explosion and suppression system. Does T-90 has it? Just ask around.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by d_berwal »

chackojoseph wrote:I just re-read the entire thing as well as the links he posted for permission.

It sounds that "if there are no blow out panels, Arjun has same risk as T-90."

Which is untrue.

I have said this few posts back. Arjun crew sits inside the turret, which is insulated. its ammo boxes are insulated.

In T-90, the crew does not sit inside the turret, but, directly above the ammo. if penetrated, a blow can kill the crew. Both ammo canister and the partition of T-90 has insulation, but, the problem is that the crew sits directly above the ammo box.

Arjun crew has more chances of surviving.
Both the crew sit inside the turret.

In case of T-90 22 rounds of ammo are in auto loader which is protected by an armored plate, on top on this crew sits.
- If the turret is penetrated two things can happen:
1) penetrating round hits AL (yes ammo will cook off) (probability of this is same compared to ammo storage in turret compared to other mbt's except M1A2)
2) penetrating round does not hit ammo in AL (ammo will not cook off)
- Ammo outside the AL is containerized. (20 Rounds) (except m1a2 all other have 30-40% ammo in turret same as T-90)

now the point of contention is:

a) are all the 39 round of ammo of arjun mk 1 under enough protection that they offer higher probability of crew protection in case of turret penetration.

- I believe not all, i dont have the exact number so the probability is same. (if some one has more info pls let me know, so i correct my self)
- Arjun MkII with containerization of all Ammo stored will achieve higher probability of crew survival.

Arjun has integrated fire explosion and suppression system. Does T-90 has it? Just ask around.
yes T-90 has this.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by chackojoseph »

^^^^ As i said, I will keep the query tomorrow and get an answer. It might take some time if needed.
chackojoseph
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by chackojoseph »

Nat geo, Mission Army: Anyone saw Arjun going full speed for a brief time?
Sanku
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

chackojoseph wrote:
d_berwal wrote:Now for all of you who believe in the propaganda that T-90 TI sight is worthless and does not work, please keep on doing so:.... As it makes it easier to get headlines and get more hits on their blogs, Most of them just recycle the previous reports and lack the credibility.

If you read some posts back, the russian minister while ordering the French TI sights has admitted that the Russian ones are not good. So, the russian minister is also filling up his blog?
Chacko -- there was never Russian TI on T 90 in India

N E V E R

It was always a Thales one, since IA during its pre-purchase test found that Russian ones dont work.

Hope that helped.
Anujan
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Anujan »

Sanku wrote:Case in point – K series missiles – http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/11/ma ... ssile.html
K series missiles are DRDO staffed but Navy managed while Agni series are DRDO staffed and managed. Comparing the Navy run Shourya length 10.22 meters diameter 0.74 meters weight 6500 kg with DRDO run Agni 1 length 15 meters weight 12000 kg offering same throw weight and range (~700 km). Also, Shourya is built of maraging steel while Agni uses composites.
This is just BS being peddled around. My question is, would Shourya be possible at all without the decades of experience being built up using the Agni? This is like comparing Brahmos with Prithvi!! When Agni and Prithvi were designed, not even (decent) cars were being manufactured in India!

The Shourya is not even a "pure" ballistic missile! How did we gain knowledge about the atmospheric conditions, the temperature and the thermal conditions during the re-entry regime, and aspects like guidance to pull of something like the Shourya? Do you know why Agni has a comparatively "pathetic" performance when compared to newer missiles? (Hint: Do you know how Indian capability to make rocket motor casings evolved over the years? And our achievement in making case-bonded motors?)
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Vivek K »

Anujan, one of these days we will learn to treat Indian trolls like we treat the Chinese versions. Don't feed the troll. He is not here to debate the point to improve his understanding. He and others like him are here to reprogram this forum so that the views of the procurement mafia are not challenged by "boys with toys". The corruption in our society is so deep rooted that it has become a part of our character. And sometimes this vice in all our characters blurs the boundary between corruption and treason.

It seems that the procurement mafia is intent on taking BRF away from sawdeshi to videshi. And so the number of trolls is not going to decrease. It will only increase.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by jai »

Sanku wrote:


Chacko -- there was never Russian TI on T 90 in India

N E V E R

It was always a Thales one, since IA during its pre-purchase test found that Russian ones dont work.

Hope that helped.[/quote]

Per Chaiwalas, there was pressure on IA brass to ensure that T 90 also appeared to be cheaper than Arjun, and hence, a lot of critically required equipment was not ordered, and teams were asked to try out local jugads - Air conditioning systems etc etc which are a key requirement for sensitive equipment like TI to work in our summer conditions in the desert where the temp exceeds over 60*C inside the tanks.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

Anujan wrote: This is just BS being peddled around. My question is, would Shourya be possible at all without the decades of experience being built up using the Agni?
Well this is tsarkar's post, and I did raise the exact same issue with this on LCA thread, however, he replied that his point was restricted to pointing out
1) The impact of forces oversight on program
2) The choice of later system using steel (and in his opinion non-fancy tech) rather than going for composites for the sake of "its a better tech so it helps"

Just for the record. You can directly engage him on this issue on LCA thread, where he, as expected, is already debating that with others.

I must say for the record, although I dont agree with exactly what he said in all aspects, the overall points he raise are definitely worth a important perspective, and we should not be development centric without understanding how forces think about the development. I believe silo thinking has been the failure of our mil-ind complex in India and at least we on BRF should not further it, we can understand various perspective without having a ego position on them as the direct participants maybe.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

jai wrote: Per Chaiwalas, there was pressure on IA brass to ensure that T 90 also appeared to be cheaper than Arjun, and hence, a lot of critically required equipment was not ordered, and teams were asked to try out local jugads - Air conditioning systems etc etc which are a key requirement for sensitive equipment like TI to work in our summer conditions in the desert where the temp exceeds over 60*C inside the tanks.
I think that is mere demagougry, primarily because in 10 years of T-90, there is no major equipment added on which was available in 1999, when prices were fixed.

Also the brass does not need to show that T 90 is cheaper than Arjun. What for? They were not competing in purchase decision!!

Also what does that has to which TI was fitted on T 90 ab-initio? From the very first package and included in the earliest purchase prices?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Austin »

This is a TI image of French Leclerc from other Leclerc thermal , this baby uses a 1500 hp diesel engine so it shows up ( via MP.net )

TI Image Leclerc
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by SaiK »

our forces normally think on the lines of:
Indian made firang maal!
any counter acting on these lines? then you are bashing the existing deep rooted networks and setup.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by negi »

d_berwal wrote: In case of T-90 22 rounds of ammo are in auto loader which is protected by an armored plate, on top on this crew sits.
- If the turret is penetrated two things can happen:
1) penetrating round hits AL (yes ammo will cook off) (probability of this is same compared to ammo storage in turret compared to other mbt's except M1A2)
This should be nominated for 'Golgappa' post of the year, firstly the armor plate you talk about is not something new to T-90 it has been there since the time of the T-72 itself but the issue is the plate does not encapsulate the whole carousel the latter is exposed from the sides for 'replenishment', and if you ever paid attention no one here is even talking about vulnerability of a MBT to top attack munitions the basic scenario is protection from hits in the horizontal plane and it is in that regard these 22 rounds with their respective charges arranged in a nice floral pattern below the turret offer a target that has a high probability of being hit from 360 degrees, and we are not even talking about the extra ammo stored in the same compartment.

The Leo2A4 family in contrast only stores the rounds to the left of the driver behind the glacis plate and below the turret, all the other rounds are stored behind the turret in the bustle and those have blow off panels.
2) penetrating round does not hit ammo in AL (ammo will not cook off)
- Ammo outside the AL is containerized. (20 Rounds) (except m1a2 all other have 30-40% ammo in turret same as T-90)
This applies for other tanks which have the ammo inside the compartment isolated in a corner be it the M1A2, Leo2 or even the Chally-2 , the T-xx infact is constructed around the cylindrical carousel that spreads those 22 rounds and their respective charges in a circular fashion hence the probability of anything that penetrates the turret missing the carousel and its contents is low.
a) are all the 39 round of ammo of arjun mk 1 under enough protection that they offer higher probability of crew protection in case of turret penetration.
They are not even stored inside the turret, they are actually stored to the left of the driver protected by the thick glacis plate in the front and the turret itself sit on the top.

Arjun has integrated fire explosion and suppression system. Does T-90 has it? Just ask around.
yes T-90 has this.
In those cramped quarters the crew's best chance is to crawl out of the tank, for they might run out of O2 if the fire suppression system kicks in. :lol:

--changed from right to left of the driver
Last edited by negi on 01 Mar 2011 00:34, edited 1 time in total.
Rahul M
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

Sanku wrote:Chacko -- there was never Russian TI on T 90 in India

N E V E R

It was always a Thales one, since IA during its pre-purchase test found that Russian ones dont work.

Hope that helped.
which didn't work either ! must be the magic touch of T-90 ! :lol:
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by chackojoseph »

Rahul M wrote:which didn't work either ! must be the magic touch of T-90 ! :lol:
Some people who don't know if HESH was produced for Arjuns, what AUCRT stands for etc are trying to exhibit the fact that they know a bit of the matter. So please allow them to exhibit their little knowledge they have.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by rahulm »

SaiK wrote:our forces normally think on the lines of:
Indian made firang maal!
any counter acting on these lines? then you are bashing the existing deep rooted networks and setup.
I met a serving tanker Lt.Col from a tank regiment in the Western sector recently. We sat in a regiments officers mess lawns shunning beer but drinking sweet milky tea instead. And I brought up the Arjun. Here is the summary:

I: Sir, I want to discuss the Arjun because there seems to be controversy in the news. Why is this sir?
He: No issues, Rahul. Its easy, because, the tank is not suited to our needs.

I: Sir, is the entire tank unsuitable or some aspects?
He: [Pauses now] Logistics are an issue, we can't move it around easily. Its also heavy.

I: Could you please explain sir.
He: When mounted on railcars, the thing just chops signal posts down. Its impossible to move it by rail.

I: I see, sir. So how do you transport it now?
He: By road! How else? And this takes time and is not efficient. As I said, it is a huge logistical issue.

[So far, I was thinking and feeling my way on how far can I and should I take this without upsetting him or breaking rapport. A bit like Tom Cruise before he goes for broke in the court at Anthony Hopkins in a "Few good men" :-) ]

I: I see sir. Sir, you mentioned earlier that Arjun is not suited for our needs and also it is heavy. But was not the Arjun developed to an IA GSQR?
He: [Gives me a look. I can feel he is revisiting whatever opinion/impression he had of me at the beginning of this conversation] Well, we wanted an Indian tank. The Arjun is not indigenous [This is the actual answer in response to my question!]

I: I see sir. Does the Arjun not have any indigenous content?
He: Well,it does [and in response to my probe] say about 50%.

[I decide to go for broke - What the hell!]

I: Sir, What % of the T-90 is indigenous?
He: [There is a thundering silence and I was not going to break it. I had asked a question and I was going to wait until the good Lt.col. answered it. Eventually, to his credit, he does] I don't think there is much if any at all.Maybe, some bits of pieces]

I: Sir, but I have never heard the IA complain about the indigenous content about the T-90. Why?
He: OK. I see the point you are trying to make.

I: Sir, also, based on newspaper reports the Cathrine TI in the T-90 is not up to the mark.Is this not critical equipment and why do we not hear more about this from the IA?
He: See, all new equipment has teething issues and we sort them out. Its a continuous process.

I: Sir, don't you think Arjun's teething issues also will get sorted out the same way as the T-90's.?
He: Does not respond except with an contemplative look. [I can tell he is thinking; what, I don't know]

I: Sir, is there anything good about the Arjun at all?
He: It has a very good suspension, rides well. Its a comfortable tank.

[Till now, I focused on facts. I now decide to go for my closing arguments]

I: Sir, you are an expert and a serving officer and as a layperson with interest in Armour, I can never hope to match your knowledge and experience.

However, its my perception and my opinion, from what I have read over the years that in the past when there was a distinct possibility that Pakistan would acquire the Abrams, the IA floated a GSQR for a western style heavy tank. Now, the Abram's threat no longer exists and it would appear that the enthusiasm for Arjun has waned.

Sir, it would appear, perhaps, wrongly but still, it appears to people on the outside looking inside there is leniency and flexibility shown to an import whereas the Arjun is held to a different benchmark. I can't say if this is true on the inside but that's how it appears from the outside. Its a collaborative positive problem solving "how can we fix this" approach for ia 100% import and a confrontational negative "it does not work approach for the 50% indigenous, using your figures, approach for the Arjun.

Sir, the T-90 may indeed be far better than the Arjun or not, the point as I see it is, it does not do the IA any good to have these perceptions in the civilian space. Times have changed sir, and the average citizen is more aware than perhaps 20-30 years ago. The IA cannot live in a shell anymore, is not insulated from public opinion and needs to have the public on its side.

Whatever, the story of the Arjun, the IA side of the story appears partial to imported products. I am sure sir, the IA is impartial but it also has to been seen as being impartial. Sir, the IA answers to a civilian government and therefore to the tax payer who funds it all and every tax payer is entitled to ask any questions and s/he through the government deserves a full and complete answer. [Yes, I actually said this].

The Lt.Col. nods his head and we sit in comfortable silence [to his credit]. The sweet milky tea was long over.

He: Well, actually, The Arjun is not that bad. We can put it to use but the logistical issues remain. [Wow and perhaps logistics is really an issue after all.] :-)

I consciously move the conversation to golf and movies and then a short while later we part, I am quite sure, as friends [he gave me his contact details].
Indranil
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Thank you Rahul. I think you did our country a good service.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by Sanku »

chackojoseph wrote:
Rahul M wrote:which didn't work either ! must be the magic touch of T-90 ! :lol:
Some people who don't know if HESH was produced for Arjuns, what AUCRT stands for etc are trying to exhibit the fact that they know a bit of the matter. So please allow them to exhibit their little knowledge they have.
Actually Karan M's link only shows that DRDO developed HESH in 2002, I had posted a link in 2007 in this forum that the HESH shells were developed but not produced in any numbers. (Yes IAs fault onleee) the reason I did not say this is because I wanted to repost that with the exact link, Since unlike others I do not post my opinions as facts without supporting evidence. However your attack on me after I demonstrated how multiple points you made were so wrong as to be bizzare, you have taken to nasty personal attack, so I had to make this post. I will look for link for HESH production and post it again.
Rahul M wrote:which didn't work either ! must be the magic touch of T-90 ! :lol:
Rahul dont you think as a forum mod you should leave the task of making one line flame baits based on massively outdated information to some others?

The Catherine TI has been working fine for over 6 years now.
rahulm wrote: I: Sir, is the entire tank unsuitable or some aspects?
He: [Pauses now] Logistics are an issue, we can't move it around easily. Its also heavy.

I: Could you please explain sir.
He: When mounted on railcars, the thing just chops signal posts down. Its impossible to move it by rail.

I: I see, sir. So how do you transport it now?
He: By road! How else? And this takes time and is not efficient. As I said, it is a huge logistical issue.
If the forum can some how get itself out of the knee jerk reflexive defensiveness; and discuss Arjun without getting into paroxysm of blame game -- the above is a very serious issue. It may be A, B or C's fault, never the less IF the above is true, that would be a huge spanner in the works. That means the Arjun's would need to be permanently deployed in active areas, and can not be held in reserve in interior parts. Also this means that the BRD and all other infra for Arjun would need be made in front areas (maybe at two or more points)
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Post by sum »

IF the above is true, that would be a huge spanner in the works. That means the Arjun's would need to be permanently deployed in active areas, and can not be held in reserve in interior parts. Also this means that the BRD and all other infra for Arjun would need be made in front areas (maybe at two or more points)
Sorry but if IA was really so concerned about transporting the tank, W(hy)TF did they issue a GSQR for a tank of such dimensions and then whine that it cannot be carried on existing rails?

The developed following the GSQR is being held to blame for following the GSQR spec? :-? :-?
Is the DRDO also supposed to upgrade IR networks as a complementary feature to get IA to induct the Arjun? Shouldnt the IA have checked on that before asking for a tank of the given size or atleast work with the IR/DRDO/martians/whoever to ensure that such a network is in place ASAP? If they cant do it, they can at least scrap the requirement for Arjun type tank and say that their GSQR was a mistake which should have been scrapped when the Pakis didn't get their Abrams.
Last edited by sum on 01 Mar 2011 10:30, edited 1 time in total.
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