Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Mar 2011 07:18

Ramana garu,

You can get entire SrimatBhavatam from here http://te.srichaganti.net/SrimadBhagavatam.aspx

It is an awesome pravachanam on entire Bhagavatam by the same person (Sri Chaganti Koteswara Rao). You can also get a speech on entire Ramayana and other puranas from that site.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2011 07:28

Speaking of that site on Mahabharatam, are the files annotated? I downloaded the whole collection and dont know which is which!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2011 07:30

I have heard Krishna avatar to the Earth is to bring the eternal vrindavan down here. He replicated everyone of the gopis including the animals of the eternal world here, who only knew one thing that is love to krishna. To test this creation brahma stole all the gopis and animals, and to check on what krishna does, and they were astounded every time they steal, a replica was recreated automatically. A wonderful concept for self configuration systems.

krishan avatar is to tell people that he is the devine, the driver, and omni present force that is everywhere. he is gopi and he is the maya. Radha is a mystical gopi from eternal world again to depict pure love. With love alone, one can achieve anything in this world.

Krishna saved rukmini since she loved krishna so much, else she would commit suicide since her brother - kamsa's friend wants her get married to sisubala. Krishna need not love Radha, cause she and him are one and the same for the story from the eternal vrindavan. Rukmini's story is largely told when mayavic radha disappears. I don't see the story telling where Krishna, Radha and rukmini are together.

So, we have no clue where Radha went once rukmini came. all maya.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Mar 2011 07:34

No Ramanaji, they were not annotated.

The files were named 01-nnn in the order of the speech.

The Bhagavatam generally goes like one story at a time, unless a story is big and took a couple of days.

I covered them book by book during the long drives.

A strong recommendation for all Telugu people. Sri Ch.Koteswara Rao garu did lot of research and gives cross references from Puranas, and other books. Very insightful.

By the way, the site also has a 7 part series on Marriage ceremony.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 08 Mar 2011 07:56

^^^i've listened to Ch.K.Rao garu's Sundara Kanda, Ramayana, and parts of Bhagavatam. the man must be a voracious reader. the amount of stuff he quotes from so many sources with perfect memory is amazing. though, i guess, he could have some notes with him...

also, as fyi, Rao garu first got initiated into deep learning by Sriman Sri Bhashyam Appalacharya. he has passed away now. but his speeches are on several sites. i personally like his Srimad Bhagavad Gita lectures.

http://www.pravachanam.com/

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 08 Mar 2011 09:17

devesh wrote:SwamyG: Krishna didn't force Rukmini, whereas Ravana did. Rukmini happily went with Krishna whereas Sita tried her very best to resist.

i feel like you should clarify your position, seriously, not good for your Karma account if you're comparing Krishna-Rukmini relationship to what Ravana did...

Yes Rukmini happily went after all they were "lovers". But Krishna still had to fight out her brother, so he used forced; and he is supposed to have "abducted" Rukmini against the wishes of her brother. This is what I alluded first when talking about force. Yes, it is not the same as Ravana abducting Sita. Force or violence was not an abnormal thing in the primitive and early societies.

Bji: Edwin Francis Bryant, calls the Krishna-Rukhmini marriage as raksasa style of marriage.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 08 Mar 2011 15:06

Rukmini proposed to Krishna and urged him to abduct her. When rukmi wants to marry her off with Shishupaal, Rukmini sends a letter along with her trusted priest to Dwarika... In fact, the letter from Rukmini to Krishna is the "first" documented love-letter in Indian history..

The plan is made of rukmini herself. She "instructs" krishna to be present near the particular window of the goddess temple in Kaundinyapura (in today's Amaravati district of Vidarbha) on particular day at particular time and blow his "shankha". Krishna merely followed the plan. A huge army of Dwarika under management of Balaraama was standing on the borders of Vidarbha to provide "back up" to Krishna. This was the only contribution of Krishna to this elopement plan.

and BTW, going OT, but this is also the first reference to a "temple" which I have read in scriptures. The concept of temples seems to be not popular in India until later Guptas I think. the Ayodhya ASI report shows this too. the site was in use for religious purpose since 1500 BC but the massive temple came only in 700s-900s AD.

Krishna did not abduct Rukmini. Rukmini "eloped" with Krishna. Thus, it is not a rakshasa style marriage.

the actual marriage per se happened in Dwarika. If I remember correctly, Balaraama did the kanyadaana for Rukmini (as her parents weren't present in the wedding). Thus it is logical to assume that the couple consummated the marriage after this ceremony and did not have sex before. Thus it is not a Rakshasa marriage, but a normal one similar to what almost all of us have had. The reason I emphasize on this is because, had it been otherwise, it would have been mentioned.

Krishna's marriage with "kaalindi" is of this nature. He sees her bathing in Yamuna and is attracted towards her. When he confronts Kalindi, she says she yearns to be wife of krishna. Krishna tells her about his identity and then has sex with her then and there. Later when he returns to camp with the woman, he informs everyone that he married to her in "gandharva" style. Everybody accepts.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Mar 2011 17:01

Krishna Marrying Kalindi as per Srimad Bhagvatham

SB 10.58.16: A crew of servants carried to King Yudhiṣṭhira the slain animals fit to be offered in sacrifice on some special occasion. Then, feeling thirsty and tired, Arjuna went to the bank of the Yamunā.

SB 10.58.17: After the two Kṛṣṇas bathed there, they drank the river's clear water. The great warriors then saw an attractive young girl walking nearby.

SB 10.58.18: Sent by his friend, Arjuna approached the exceptional young woman, who possessed beautiful hips, fine teeth and a lovely face, and inquired from her as follows.

SB 10.58.19: [Arjuna said:] Who are you, O fine-waisted lady? Whose daughter are you, and where do you come from? What are you doing here? I think you must be looking for a husband. Please explain everything, O beautiful one.

SB 10.58.20: Śrī Kālindī said: I am the daughter of the sun-god. I desire to get as my husband the most excellent and munificent Lord Viṣṇu, and to that end I am performing severe penances.

SB 10.58.21: I will accept no husband other than Him, the abode of the goddess of fortune. May that Mukunda, the Supreme Personality, the shelter of the helpless, be pleased with me.

SB 10.58.22: I am known as Kālindī, and I live in a mansion my father built for me within the water of the Yamunā. There I will stay until I meet Lord Acyuta.

SB 10.58.23: [Śukadeva Gosvāmī continued:l Arjuna repeated all this to Lord Vāsudeva, who was already aware of it. The Lord then took Kālindī onto His chariot and went back to see King Yudhiṣṭhira.

SB 10.58.29: The supremely auspicious Lord then married Kālindī on a day when the season, the lunar asterism and the configurations of the sun and other heavenly bodies were all propitious. In this way He brought the greatest pleasure to His devotees

Where does this sex then there come from? the Source for Krishna Avataram is Bhagvatam and it does not mention it?

If you belive the Hindu Scriptures, Man is there on earth for Millions of years in different cycles. There are 14 planetary systems and Universe lasts long really long. Brahma's life is 411 trillion and 40 billion years.

there is no belief in this 1500 BC etc

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Mar 2011 17:11

Krishna's Marriage to Rukmini

Srimad Bhagvatham

SB 10.52.18: King Parīkṣit said: The Supreme Lord married Rukmiṇī, the beautiful-faced daughter of Bhīṣmaka, in the Rākṣasa style — or so I have heard.

SB 10.52.23: Hearing of the beauty, prowess, transcendental character and opulence of Mukunda from visitors to the palace who sang His praises, Rukmiṇī decided that He would be the perfect husband for her.

SB 10.52.24: Lord Kṛṣṇa knew that Rukmiṇī possessed intelligence, auspicious bodily markings, beauty, proper behavior and all other good qualities. Concluding that she would be an ideal wife for Him, He made up His mind to marry her.

SB 10.52.25: Because Rukmī envied the Lord, O King, he forbade his family members to give his sister to Kṛṣṇa, although they wanted to. Instead, Rukmī decided to give Rukmiṇī to Śiśupāla.

SB 10.53.51-55: Rukmiṇī appeared as enchanting as the Lord's illusory potency, who enchants even the sober and grave. Thus the kings gazed upon her virgin beauty, her shapely waist, and her lovely face adorned with earrings. Her hips were graced with a jewel-studded belt, her breasts were just budding, and her eyes seemed apprehensive of her encroaching locks of hair. She smiled sweetly, her jasmine-bud teeth reflecting the glow of her bimba-red lips. As she walked with the motions of a royal swan, the effulgence of her tinkling ankle bells beautified her feet. Seeing her, the assembled heroes were totally bewildered. Lust tore at their hearts. Indeed, when the kings saw her broad smile and shy glance, they became stupefied, dropped their weapons and fell unconscious to the ground from their elephants, chariots and horses. On the pretext of the procession, Rukmiṇī displayed her beauty for Kṛṣṇa alone. Slowly she advanced the two moving lotus-whorls of her feet, awaiting the arrival of the Supreme Lord. With the fingernails of her left hand she pushed some strands of hair away from her face and shyly looked from the corners of her eyes at the kings standing before her. At that moment she saw Kṛṣṇa. Then, while His enemies looked on, the Lord seized the princess, who was eager to mount His chariot.

SB 10.53.56: Lifting the princess onto His chariot, whose flag bore the emblem of Garuḍa, Lord Mādhava drove back the circle of kings. With Balarāma in the lead, He slowly exited, like a lion removing his prey from the midst of jackals.

SB 10.53.57: The kings inimical to the Lord, headed by Jarāsandha, could not tolerate this humiliating defeat. They exclaimed, "Oh, damn us! Though we are mighty archers, mere cowherds have stolen our honor, just as puny animals might steal the honor of lions!"

SB 10.54.35: Lord Kṛṣṇa tied up the evil-doer with a strip of cloth. He then proceeded to disfigure Rukmī by comically shaving him, leaving parts of his mustache and hair. By that time the Yadu heroes had crushed the extraordinary army of their opponents, just as elephants crush a lotus flower

SB 10.54.59: The kings and their daughters were totally astonished to hear the story of Rukmiṇī's abduction, which was being glorified in song everywhere.

SB 10.54.60: Dvārakā's citizens were overjoyed to see Kṛṣṇa, the Lord of all opulence, united with Rukmiṇī, the goddess of fortune.

So a forced marriage is basically no marriage at all, Rakshhasa is where Bride and Groom elope with each other rather than waiting for parents to marry them off.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 08 Mar 2011 18:10

Aditya_V wrote:Krishna Marrying Kalindi as per Srimad Bhagvatham

SB 10.58.16: A crew of servants carried to King Yudhiṣṭhira the slain animals fit to be offered in sacrifice on some special occasion. Then, feeling thirsty and tired, Arjuna went to the bank of the Yamunā.

SB 10.58.17: After the two Kṛṣṇas bathed there, they drank the river's clear water. The great warriors then saw an attractive young girl walking nearby.

SB 10.58.18: Sent by his friend, Arjuna approached the exceptional young woman, who possessed beautiful hips, fine teeth and a lovely face, and inquired from her as follows.

SB 10.58.19: [Arjuna said:] Who are you, O fine-waisted lady? Whose daughter are you, and where do you come from? What are you doing here? I think you must be looking for a husband. Please explain everything, O beautiful one.

SB 10.58.20: Śrī Kālindī said: I am the daughter of the sun-god. I desire to get as my husband the most excellent and munificent Lord Viṣṇu, and to that end I am performing severe penances.

SB 10.58.21: I will accept no husband other than Him, the abode of the goddess of fortune. May that Mukunda, the Supreme Personality, the shelter of the helpless, be pleased with me.

SB 10.58.22: I am known as Kālindī, and I live in a mansion my father built for me within the water of the Yamunā. There I will stay until I meet Lord Acyuta.

SB 10.58.23: [Śukadeva Gosvāmī continued:l Arjuna repeated all this to Lord Vāsudeva, who was already aware of it. The Lord then took Kālindī onto His chariot and went back to see King Yudhiṣṭhira.

SB 10.58.29: The supremely auspicious Lord then married Kālindī on a day when the season, the lunar asterism and the configurations of the sun and other heavenly bodies were all propitious. In this way He brought the greatest pleasure to His devotees
Where does this sex then there come from? the Source for Krishna Avataram is Bhagvatam and it does not mention it?

If you belive the Hindu Scriptures, Man is there on earth for Millions of years in different cycles. There are 14 planetary systems and Universe lasts long really long. Brahma's life is 411 trillion and 40 billion years.

there is no belief in this 1500 BC etc

thank you for original citations. I stand corrected on Krishna-Kaalindi marriage. I thought it was gandharva vivaha. If you can, please check this incident in Harivamsha as well. I will do it, by this weekend. I remember reading the gandharva vivaha of krishna and kalindi. I personally like Krishna's portrayal in MBH and Harivamsha, rather than in SrimadBhagvatam. Krishna is more human in former than in latter where everything is leela onlee..

I am not really into man being there for millions of years.. its ok as a story to impress a point in minds of masses that time is cyclical. Rather its use is that it creates cyclical image of time instead of linear which what is impressed upon minds of westerners. And how important is time's cyclical image for sustainability, I have discussed in deracination thread.

There is a huge degree of historicity in our stories and scriptures (especially Ramayana and Mahabharata) and that historicity is not as romantic as it is portrayed in our scriptures. I sometimes wonder if Indics are ready to face and digest the actual research in history. There is a reason why itihaasa is so rosy and perfect, one of the reasons is that it has been made perfect by our ancestors. Of course in the course of finding out the truth, the marxist-historians go to another extreme and distort the history even more in an opposite end, thereby making the picture even more blurred.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Mar 2011 19:44

devesh wrote:^^^i've listened to Ch.K.Rao garu's Sundara Kanda, Ramayana, and parts of Bhagavatam. the man must be a voracious reader. the amount of stuff he quotes from so many sources with perfect memory is amazing. though, i guess, he could have some notes with him...

also, as fyi, Rao garu first got initiated into deep learning by Sriman Sri Bhashyam Appalacharya. he has passed away now. but his speeches are on several sites. i personally like his Srimad Bhagavad Gita lectures.

http://www.pravachanam.com/

Yes. I listened to many of his speeches (Sundarakanda, complete Ramayana, Siva Purana, Lalita Sahasranama, Saundarya Lahari, Bhagavatam etc).

It looks like MahaBharat and Ramayana are told like a story. If one wants to know why a character did what it did, one has to look for their past karmas and lives in Puranas.

Many people think Bharat got its name from Bharata of Sakuntala/Dushyanta. That is not correct. The Bharata name came from a king called Bharata who later became as "Jada Bharata" as he was inert to all worldly activities.

For a long time I wanted to summarize few of Bhagavata stories for us here. But time didn't permit, and I am not a good story teller.

And then there is the story of Kardama and Devahuti; parents of Kapila Maharshi, founder of Samkhya. Kardama did penance for an interesting cause. He wanted to find a suitable wife and wanted to start family and did his penance for that. Bhagavan Vishnu appreciated this so much that he wanted to be a son of Kardama.

Multiverses:
After marriage Kardama creates a parallel universe where he and his wife spend on Honeymoon for a long long time. The same concept appears in one of Draupadi's past lives as Indrasena and Maudgalya. The same concept appears in a story in Vasista Darsana.

, Some random thoughts...

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 08 Mar 2011 19:53

Narayana is overcome with joy when Kardama requests for a good Dharmic wife who he can share his worldly activities with. it is also said that manasa sarovar formed during this event b/c Narayana literally cried with joy and his tears became the Manasa Sarovar.

the above story is generally cited as an example of the importance of Grihasthashrama. marriage > Grihastha Ashrama > Worldly duties.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 08 Mar 2011 20:44

Ramana sir

http://en.srichaganti.net/GajendraMoksham.aspx

same site as RamaYji told. Guruji you should listen to this and other things in this site. One of the best and getter than 100 times of Ushasri whom I always thought as the best. Now a days he is speaking on Ardhanareswara thotram of Shankara Bhagavadpada in Maa Tv.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Mar 2011 21:21

ramana ji,
it is observed in my circles too. This is a possible very old Indic (and perhaps therefore "Aryan") tradition which had symbolic and ritual significance, and need not mean a subtext of social memory of violent marriages. The knotting/tying of arms, thumbs, wrists, waists of both the bride and the groom together appears in old Celtic, Roman, proto-German, Ukrainian, and of course in one form or another in almost all corners of SD in India.

But specifically binding or tying only the bride is specific to certain Brahmins and some BrahmaKshatris and ancient Romans it seems within this IE spectrum! (It seems to be a common practice in the Italian peninsula among the pre-Roman tribes - like Etruscans). In some cases there were real competitions where the bride was tied up publicly and the men fought or competed etc - whoever won would get to untie the knot. Whatever it was, the "knot" or tied bride was symbolic of a "protected/covered" virgin which the groom "uncovers/unties". The symbolism should be obvious.

However, the Indic tying up could be a similar remnant from an earlier tradition of such competitive marriages or it could be a Brahmin reformation of the more violent warrior phase of the custom. [I consider "Brahminism" as a movement that rose against militarism in certain forms at a certain stage rather than a "caste group"] but which was transformed into a symbolic "that which is protected/cherished/unpolluted/firm in commitment" in the person of the bride.

A lot of significance has been woven into the rites - like viewing Saptarshi, Arundhati in pair, going round the fire "knotted" in seven circles, etc.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 08 Mar 2011 21:38

RamaY: I use this site for some children as the language is simple but it is one of the best explanations of Bhagwatham, I have found online.
http://www.bagavatham.org/

Part of the problem for the deracinated kinds is they need the texts written in a language and at comprehension levels (fifth grade English) to understand things.

We need more works which can be comprehended by the masses.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2011 22:04

Devesh,
I downloaded the Mahabharatam discourse onto my phone and listen while driving to work thru the cable. Its awesome. I will do the same with Gajendra Moksham. My elder bro can recite the whole episode from Potanna's Bhagvatam. I was English medium and lost out some

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 08 Mar 2011 22:25

^^^ regarding language and memorization, imo, things are most easily remembered by kids when they are made to recite after elders or somebody else. even just blindly listening to stuff day in and day out can imbibe learning. i have seen this happen with none other than yours truly. grandfather made me memorize entire Vishnu Sahasranama of 108 slokas and purva peethika and uttara peethika when i was 9. various other Suktas of Sri Vaishnavite tradition, i simply learned by hearing the same thing over and over for years. my younger brother is even better at it than me.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Mar 2011 22:42

Another good source for telugu people is Surasa.net

Please listen to Kathopanishad speech by Sri Sundara Chaitanyananda. It is exceptional.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2011 23:02

Edwin Francis Bryant, calls the Krishna-Rukhmini marriage as raksasa style of marriage.

Okay here is my disagreement thought:-

Ravana forcefully taking Sita away from her wishes is an abduction, within the scope of Ramayana reasoning.

Krishna forcefully taking Rukmin to satisfy her wishes and save her forceful marriage with Shisubala can't be termed as abduction in the scope of cause and effect reasoning.

So, question to all modern thinkers. How would you save your GHQ not forcefully eloping if she says, will rather commit suicide and not marry someone else other than you. And, you will say your answer only if you ever loved your GHQ in the first place. ?

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 08 Mar 2011 23:58

SaiK wrote:
Edwin Francis Bryant, calls the Krishna-Rukhmini marriage as raksasa style of marriage.
Okay here is my disagreement thought:-

Ravana forcefully taking Sita away from her wishes is an abduction, within the scope of Ramayana reasoning.

Krishna forcefully taking Rukmin to satisfy her wishes and save her forceful marriage with Shisubala can't be termed as abduction in the scope of cause and effect reasoning.

So, question to all modern thinkers. How would you save your GHQ not forcefully eloping if she says, will rather commit suicide and not marry someone else other than you. And, you will say your answer only if you ever loved your GHQ in the first place. ?

I have given my two paisa..Elopement is not Rakshasa Vivaha. And Krishna-Rukmini is example of GHQ eloping with her BF to eventually marry him. However, the term popularly used to describe this episode which is also there in MBH is "Rukmini Harana". Harana comes from word root "har" which means "to snatch".. (har har mahadev is actually a prayer asking mahadeva to snatch the life of enemy after you have done your karma of hurting him).

Now, Rukmini Harana has to be literally translated as "abduction of Rukmini"..

Now same term is used for "Seeta-Harana" which has negative connotations.

If the problem is negative connotations associated with the term "abduction/Harana" then, all we need to understand is there is a contextual difference. The proposal and the elopement plan, everything was Rukmini's design. Krishna mostly just followed the instructions. Since there is same term associated with two different episodes, one has to be careful while making judgements.

I think people understand this. There are many "vratas" which unmarried girls undertake. One of them is worshipping Lakshmi on fridays (vaibhav-lakshmi vrata). Many girls are advised by the astrologers to recite this episode (of Rukmini harana) every friday so that they will get a good husband. I haven't seen such social attestation to any other episode of abduction..

Many problems occur because we have partially lost our roots. The problem is partial loss because, complete loss won't make this a big deal. we feel something, but lack the data which the rooted people possess. This is the price which India has paid since 1835.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 09 Mar 2011 01:20

In the above video, around time index 2:50, Balu mentions about something called "Avadhana". He says this was/is prevalent in Karnataka, Andhara Pradesh and Tamilnadu. Can some one familiar with this "Avadhana" provide online links for further exploration?.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 09 Mar 2011 01:26

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avadhanam

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 09 Mar 2011 02:28

Atri wrote: ...
Now, Rukmini Harana has to be literally translated as "abduction of Rukmini"..

Now same term is used for "Seeta-Harana" which has negative connotations.
...

Atri, isn't "Rukmini harana" used for "abduction of Rukmini", but "seeta apaharana" used for Sita's abduction? "apaharana" is defined as "stealing"

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Mar 2011 02:34

I have seen both these words used for the same meaning. However, I have a zero sanskrit brain.

partha · Post by **partha** » 09 Mar 2011 03:03

Sushupti wrote:
In the above video, around time index 2:50, Balu mentions about something called "Avadhana". He says this was/is prevalent in Karnataka, Andhara Pradesh and Tamilnadu. Can some one familiar with this "Avadhana" provide online links for further exploration?.

Watch all 4 parts. A discussion between Balu and Shatavadhani R Ganesh. I have attended a couple of his Avadhana programs.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 09 Mar 2011 06:06

Avadhana is a progamme where is a set of people normally 8 give problems etc to the person doing the programme and normally they include - Samasya poornam, no of bells ringing, filling poems providing distrantion, nishidhakshari and so on. 8 kinds are tasks will be there normally in any avadhanam which is called as Ashtavadhanam. Many times it goes 100 people asking questions etc at the same time. The programme is considered as a great test for any pundit of Telugu. I do not know about other lingos.
Any gurus can better elabarate. I have been to many programmes and it is great entertainment also.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 09 Mar 2011 06:08

It is Rukmini Kalyanam gurus not harana or something like that. hanana is also ok I guss because it is taking a girl from her father without his permission.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 09 Mar 2011 06:17

putnanja wrote:
Atri wrote: ...
Now, Rukmini Harana has to be literally translated as "abduction of Rukmini"..

Now same term is used for "Seeta-Harana" which has negative connotations.
...
Atri, isn't "Rukmini harana" used for "abduction of Rukmini", but "seeta apaharana" used for Sita's abduction? "apaharana" is defined as "stealing"

No, AFAIK.. This is the one-verse Ramayana (Eka Shloki Ramayanam)

आदौ राम तपोवनाधिगमनं हत्वा मृगं कांचनं
वैदेही हरणं जटायुमरणं सुग्रीव संभाषणं
बाली निर्दलनं समुद्रतरणं लंकापुरी दाहनं
पश्चाद्रावण कुम्भकर्ण हननं एतद्धि रामायणम्।

(First Rraam left for exile where he killed a golden deer
then Seeta was abducted, jatayu died and raam allied with Sugrina
Vaali was killed, Ocean crossed and Lanka burnt by Hanuman
Thereafter Ravan and Kumbhakarna were slain, thus ends the Ramayana)...

Vaidehi haranam is used and not apaharanam..

Hanan means to kill...

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 09 Mar 2011 17:58

Narayana Rao wrote:It is Rukmini Kalyanam gurus not harana or something like that. hanana is also ok I guss because it is taking a girl from her father without his permission.

Besides, Sri Krishna also blew his conch Panchajanyam as soon as Rukmini came aboard his chariot to make his presence felt throughout the kingdom, especially to King Bhishmaka, Crown Prince Rukmi and Shishupala. So it is not an abduction or kidnapping of any kind.

Whereas, Ravana came disguised and did not intend to leave any evidence of his presence. There is intent of malice in the latter which is simply absent in the Krishna-Rukmini case.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 09 Mar 2011 18:03

Gurus, a newbie question:

From approximately when did the practice of shaving/removal of all facial/head hair of the son take place during funeral ceremony of family members? Are there historical records kept for this practice? I would also like to know the geographical spread and significance of this practice.

Thanks in advance!

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 09 Mar 2011 21:04

Basically I think it is for health reasons. Cutting hair, taking bath and thing like that may have been developed a measure of hygiene. This custom is there among Hindus every where. I still remember people shaving their head when King Birendra was murdered all around Nepal. But immediately after death the head will be shaven and one small hair bit will be kept and after the Karma is performed say 10, 12 or 15 days as per the local and community customs the entire hair will be shaven in the last days.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Mar 2011 21:43

In SD, death is considered as end of one phase and beginning of a celestial phase. The karma associated with that journey is also a yajna (Pitru Yajna, Pitru Karma); and is considered as the best karma a human can do (there are ashta-dasa karmas = 18 karmas during the life of a human - Namakarana, Annaprasana, Aksharabhyasa, Upanayana, so on...) post life (jeeva). This is the only karma a soul relies on others to do. Kind of puts things in perspective w.r.t relationship between soul and body. Body is the vehicle to do jeeva yajna; thru Dharma, Artha, and Kama in that sequence. Moksha is the objective that releases the soul from this samsara.

It is said (AFAIK) that during the first 12 days after death, the soul lives in a plane where every one hour in that plan equals to 1 day in our time. During this time, the soul is in a confused state is looking for its body/relatives. It is said to rotate between (1) Place of death (2) Place of dahanam (sivasthan) (3) Karma karta (generally the first son) (4) Vayasa (crow that take the pinda=food). This is the reason behind 12 days of karma kanda.

During the next state, the soul separates itself from this plane and moves to the next plane of journey; during which 1 day of that plane is equal to 1 month in jeeva plane. This is the reason behind Masika karma (monthly ritual) in the fist year. The soul is doing an yajna and will eat only once a day.

In the next phase the soul is said to delve in a even higher plan where every 1 day in that plane is equal to 1 year in Jeeva plane (earth). That is the reason behind Pitru Dinam that comes every year. Agian the soul takes food only once a day during this phase.

The karma continues upto 3 generations at any given point. For example my father passed away. So on his anniversary, he visits our family his father and his grand father. In case of mother's anniversary, mother, her mother-in-law, and her mother-in-law are invited. That is the logic behind girls getting their family name and gotra changing to their husband's after their marriage. This is the reason why kanyadana is considered one of the most divine danas.

The fourth generation soul either moves on to another life or moves ahead in its liberation (I guess). That is the reason behind our grand parents' wish to see son of their grand son while alive. As that would ensure the liberation of their soul from this samsara.

This entire yajna is done in a sober mood and in silence. There is no sorrow but the realization of limitation of life; and ones Dharma to carry their forefathers on their shoulders while showing way for their offspring. This is the foundation of Hindu family system.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2011 21:48

And also the purohit invokes Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva in the three generations while doing the annual.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Mar 2011 22:42

i've been to some of those end time rituals, but never paid much attention to the theory behind it. perhaps b/c the last i attended one of them was when i was very young. very informative.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Mar 2011 22:48

also Kanya Dana performed with the right procedure is said to make sure that 21 generations (or maybe 108?) before and 21 generations after do not enter hell. also said that if you don't have a daughter, but still want to perform a Kanya Dana, then you can do so as part of Srinivasa Kalyanam or Sita Rama Kalyanam. to get the real experience, you have to take a deeksha for a matter of 3 days and on the assigned good day perform the Kalyana while acting as the parents of the bride (Sri Padmavathi or Sita devi). not sure if Rukmini Kalyanam or Lakshmi Kalyanam or Andal Kalyanam are done for this purpose too.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Mar 2011 22:51

^ One can download Sri Chaganti Koteswara Rao garu's speech in Telugu on Marriage ritual and the philosophy behind it from

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 10 Mar 2011 03:25

RamaY ji and Narayana Rao ji, thanks for the informative posts!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Mar 2011 03:50

I think Atri can collect the Sanskrit slokas for Vaidik marriage, and death-rites, and repost them here. I think everyone should look at these slokas again. They can be taken at three levels - (1) beautiful or rather exquisite poems (2) indication of customs at the time they were codified [a snapshot of society and norms] (3) philosophy behind it which can be the real juicy bit to see what motivated the framers of the sloka and to encode what as a core? It is that latter part that can serve as a re-exploration point and see what the essence is that which we should revive - and not necessarily literally.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Mar 2011 04:50

I had lost my father in 2010 August and had to perform the rites as I am the only male child. From what i understand from the them is that they are mainly intended to bring peace to his atma and send it to heaven. I must admit though I was not trying hard to understand with all the fire cold water baths and all relatives etc around and my monther and sisters weeping.

Comming to marriage the Kanyadan is there from the down of time. In valmiki Ramayana it is the olny rite wherein Janaka gives Sita Devi to Sri Rama before the Sacred fire. There is no mangan suthram etc things as they are now. I think all the other things developed later. Further During Kanyadam girl as Lakshmi is given to Sri Hari and not to any mortal. In any event we are not understanding what we are doing and we do not know most of the time whey our elders started all these things.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 10 Mar 2011 04:52

From Kamakoti.org

Varaha Deva told Bhu Devi about the significance of Pitra Yagna stating that it was Sage Nimi who started the practice of the Last Rites when the Sage lost his son, Sage Atreya. Nimi could not overcome the grief for three consecutive days and nights.Thereafter, he decided to surmount the sorrow by performing the last rites on the twelfth day ie the day of the ‘Asuchi’ or impurity after the death. He performed the rituals of Shraddha on one day which would have taken a week normally.He also executed ‘Pinda Daan’by donating cereals, vegetables and fruits and with his hands along with kusa grass pointing to South recited the departed soul of his son’s name and Gotra. On that day, he invited Brahmanas and gave them a feast along with those food delicacies which his son would have liked to enjoy. But the sense of grief and guilt tormented Nimi who even contemplated a bid on suicide. Meanwhile Maharshi Narada arrived and assuaged the intense feelings of Nimi and confirmed that whatever was being performed was quite in consonance with the regulations approved by Brahma. As the person whose custody was being taken by Yamaraja and followers should be transferred to a kusha mat while chanting the Mantra ‘OM’and Divya Gayatri and quikly wrap up over the body a ‘Madhuparka’with the Mantra: Om Gruhana chemam Madhuparkamaadyam Samsaranashanakaram Tvamrutena Thulyam Narayanena Rachitam Bhagavatpriyanam Daahecha Shantikaranam Suraloka pujuyam (Om, take this Aaadya madhuparakam; this discards Samsaarik connections and connects with Amrit or eternal ties inspired and loved by Narayana Himself; your thirst would be quenched and grants Peace and is adorable in Devaloka!). After applying scented materials and oils, the permanent shine of the body and face be brought once and for all, place the head down towards Ganga and other Tirthas available and perform bathing, arrange head towards north and feet towards South on the ‘chita’ and whoever is the Kartha(s) should invoke Agni reciting the Mantra:’Krutva Dushkaram Karma jaanatha vaapyajaanatha, Mrityu kaala vasham praapya Narah Panchatva maagahatah / Dharmaadharma samayuktho Lobha moha samaavrataha, Daheyam Sarva gaathraani Divya lokaani gatcchatu’ / ( Either knowingly or unknowingly, this person’s soul may have committed sins and right now is in the grip of Mrithyu (death) and has been absorbed in ‘Pancha Tatvas’; this body with Lobha ( greed) or moha ( attachment) as also Virtue or Vice is being consigned into flames and its Soul be transferred to Divya Lokas!). Having said this and made ‘Pradakshina’, the Kartha(s) should look at head down to Agni Deva and after taking bath return home.Since then as ‘Ashuchi’ commences and Deva karyas should not be carried out. This Procedure of ‘Antima Samskar’ (Last Rites) is applicable to all the Four Varnas. On the Third Day of the death, the Kartha(s) should take bath in a River or running waterbody and along with three‘Pindas’ give away three ‘Jalaanjalis’. On the fourth, fifth and sixth days, only one Pinda and three ‘Jalanjalis’ be repeated. On the Seventh and Eighth days the same be executed but at another place. On the Ninth day, those Brahmanas who were commissioned for the Pitru Karya should recite Puranas without taking cooked food; they would eat only on the thirteenth day. On the Tenth day, the Kartha (s) should have the head tonsured and wear new clothes. On the eleventh day, all the Sagotris take bath with oil and on the twelfth day would be performed ‘Ekodishta Shraddah’. Pinda-Pradan is to be done as per procedure; the Pindas need to be considered as the departed souls themselves with unmitigated reverence and selflessness.On the Thirteenth day, a feast is arranged to Brahmanas, relatives and friends; ‘Daanas’are also performed to liberate the deceased Soul and donations are made too in the form of cereals, umbrellas, and dakshina.Besides other Danas, Go-daan indeed acquires significance.The procedure is to be carried out every month till the arrival of the same day a year hence and till that time, the departed soul is not freed from the ‘Pretavastha’. Thereafter, the Annual ceremony becomes a regular feature as long the Kartha lives.