MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Mar 2011 21:22

Rule Change: I will now only buy mithai if the GOI selects Rafale/Typhoon.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 14 Mar 2011 21:52

Rakesh wrote:Rule Change: I will now only buy mithai if the GOI selects Rafale/Typhoon.

connotation u won't be buying any mithai

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 14 Mar 2011 22:00

....I dont understand this bias against US and it is especially evident in the MMRCA competition...
Unless we were planning to fight US or any of its European allies I dont see why we should try to stay away from them...
After all havent we already bought so much stuff from US and one of its fronts - Israel...So whats the big deal about MMRCA..

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Mar 2011 22:02

oh ho! lalchix time
pass the popcorn please!

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 14 Mar 2011 22:18

Since Mr. Anthony is that cautious about speaking to the Americans before the winner is anounced; I guess we can congratulate Boeing for the next big ticket deal this year.
I hope some of them Shornets come as Growlers.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 14 Mar 2011 22:19

RSoami wrote:....I dont understand this bias against US and it is especially evident in the MMRCA competition...
Unless we were planning to fight US or any of its European allies I dont see why we should try to stay away from them...
After all havent we already bought so much stuff from US and one of its fronts - Israel...So whats the big deal about MMRCA..

Thing is when we see around we find unkil ji never hesitate to screw even closest and oldest of its allies for its interest.

Not long back in history.. after the budha smiled second time in pokharan.. unkil seized everything related to lca, even the code developed by Indian scientists at Lockheed Martin labs. As a result our little tejas wasn't able to smile for many many coming years.

Now if things continue to go the way they are moving, unkil will continue to be our besti for many years to come, but then its also for sure if one fine morning some Nixon 2.0 become president and unkil & panda become bestis then unkil won't think for a second before abandoning us. We will be feeling the same way the pakis are feeling right now.. every now and then getting news of unkils eagerness to offer there arc rival India everything that can/will kick pakis a$$.. P8I, F-18/F-16, Apache, harpoon!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Mar 2011 22:29

VinodTK wrote:US friendship faces ‘St Antony’ test

I don't think its as serious a matter as the Telegraph is making it out to be.

Sure the US Defence Secretary wanted to lobby on behalf of the Teens but that should hardly be a new experience for the MoD. You had the Cameron and Merkel come over and lobby for the EF, Sarkozy for the Rafale and even a half-hearted attempt from Medvedev for the MiG-35.

It is possible though that the MoD has zeroed in on one or two MRCA finalists and wouldn't like to entertain any any lobbying in the final stages, even if the product being pushed has not been selected.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 14 Mar 2011 22:30

Times change..Now they need us no less than we need them...
Changing with times is essential...
And all countries do the same as USA does...
In fact I wouldnt even mind F16 winning the MMRCA competition...
Its cheap, single engined with very good radar amd weapons in contrast to uber expensive Rafael and Eurofighter.
..Rememebr France has been trying to fleece us on Mirage upgrade deal
..Germany has decided not to sell pistols to police forces in India...
Dont see why venom should only be reserved for US of A.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Mar 2011 22:35

RSoami wrote:Times change..Now they need us no less than we need them...

Other than fleecing us and controlling us, what else do they really need us for? Do Enlighten Us.

RSoami wrote:Changing with times is essential...
And all countries do the same as USA does...
In fact I wouldnt even mind F16 winning the MMRCA competition...
Its cheap, single engined with very good radar amd weapons in contrast to uber expensive Rafael and Eurofighter.

F-Solah has hit the end of its development life. There is nothing left to squeeze out of it.

RSoami wrote:..Rememebr France has been trying to fleece us on Mirage upgrade deal
..Germany has decided not to sell pistols to police forces in India...
Dont see why venom should only be reserved for US of A.

And u think the Amreekis will not fleece us when it comes time to upgrade the Shornet or the Viper? What planet are you on?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Mar 2011 22:40

i wonder if amreeki agints are hiring drones to infiltrate this dhaaga?!

thats two jhanda-wavers for LM within short space of time

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 14 Mar 2011 22:43

1. When we got into this we agreed to the terms and conditions. Are you trying to tell me that Germany and France wont try to fleece us if we choose their planes...Either we build our planes or ...
2. F 16 is cheap, has a good radar and good weapons.
2. My question is.. why this venom reserved for US of A ???

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 14 Mar 2011 22:45

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 14 Mar 2011 22:51

RSoami wrote:Times change..Now they need us no less than we need them...

Yes and that's why they are offering us everything shiny and bright.
But I am worried of time when they won't be needing us.

National policies are not derived for instantaneous advantages, instead for long term national interest.

RSoami wrote:Changing with times is essential...
And all countries do the same as USA does...In fact I wouldnt even mind F16 winning the MMRCA competition...
Its cheap, single engined with very good radar amd weapons in contrast to uber expensive Rafael and Eurofighter.

I won't mind seeing 200 F18's in IAF, no matter what anybody says truth is it will scare the shit out of pakis and make the panda sweat.

But there will be too many strings, too many compromises and too many future uncertainties.

RSoami wrote:..Rememebr France has been trying to fleece us on Mirage upgrade deal

Well if u study little deeper, neither are we asking cheap things. We want the best possible, french didn't offer any discount and the bill became $2billion. Same is the case for Gorki.. people cry foul that price is increased three folds etc, but then they ignore how many folds of additional work has been done.

RSoami wrote:..Germany has decided not to sell pistols to police forces in India...
Dont see why venom should only be reserved for US of A.

German declined for some states with poor human rights record like AP. They will sell it to GOI. And as far as i know talks are on for that.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 14 Mar 2011 22:58

1. By the time they stop needing us, its likely we wont be needing them either...You are just too scared...
``National policies are not derived for instantaneous advantages, instead for long term national interest.``
Exactle my point..There is little chance that US of A will stop needing us in near future and so we should keep that in mind.
2. Too many strings...Yes but only if we wanna fight USA or its allies..none if we fight a terrorist or communist state.
3.If they can raise the human rights bogy for AP then why wont they for GoI vis a vis Kashmir...

....My question is...why this venom reserved for US of A

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Mar 2011 22:59

Rakesh wrote:Rule Change: I will now only buy mithai if the GOI selects Rafale/Typhoon.

Sounds like it came direct from chai-biskoot wala's mouth.

dhoti shiver mode for the europeans now.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 14 Mar 2011 23:11

RSoami wrote:1. By the time they stop needing us, its likely we wont be needing them either...You are just too scared...

If you start reading wiki-leaks, u'll be scared square.
You should learn something from the lessons of England, Pakistan and "Al Qaida". There is just one surety in unkil's friendship.. it will end with you getting screwed.

RSoami wrote:``National policies are not derived for instantaneous advantages, instead for long term national interest.``
Exactle my point..There is little chance that US of A will stop needing us in near future and so we should keep that in mind.
2. Too many strings...Yes but only if we wanna fight USA or its allies..none if we fight a terrorist or communist state.

How about war with a "Major Non-Nato Ally"!!

RSoami wrote:3.If they can raise the human rights bogy for AP then why wont they for GoI vis a vis Kashmir...

....My question is...why this venom reserved for US of A

Its about calling a "bully" a bully!
We do the same when Russia try to empty our wallet.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 14 Mar 2011 23:21

..England is doing farely well...After second world war they were never in contention to be a world power so they are doing really well playing second fiddle to US of A.
Pakistan is in shit not because of US of A but becuse of its inherent porkiness..cant blame US for it...ditto for Qaeda
....Pakistan is no ally...Americans wouldnt be selling all kind of military hardwares to us if it were...major non NATO ally are just empty words...as everyone is now coming round to understand...
....US of A is a bad citizen of the world...but why worry if its a friend ???

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Mar 2011 23:24

RSoami wrote:Times change..Now they need us no less than we need them...
Changing with times is essential...
And all countries do the same as USA does...
In fact I wouldnt even mind F16 winning the MMRCA competition...
Its cheap, single engined with very good radar amd weapons in contrast to uber expensive Rafael and Eurofighter.
..Rememebr France has been trying to fleece us on Mirage upgrade deal
..Germany has decided not to sell pistols to police forces in India...
Dont see why venom should only be reserved for US of A.

National interest never change.

All tech offered by US to India are atleast 30 year old designs.
All other countries support us in the global forum taking our sides even against our rivals.

US cannot do that for India now or in the future.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 14 Mar 2011 23:34

Acharyaji, Your statements were so sweeping that my bolti was shut up...
...Particularly this one -
```US cannot do that for India now OR IN FUTURE.```

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Mar 2011 23:47

He He. That is the way I do it.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Mar 2011 01:06

Acharya wrote:All tech offered by US to India are atleast 30 year old designs.

Acharya wrote:All other countries support us in the global forum taking our sides even against our rivals.

US cannot do that for India now or in the future.

The US might be the only one willing to take your side against China. I'm not saying they will (insert joke about China owning US here), but there is zero chance of anyone else doing it.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Mar 2011 01:38

RSoami wrote:
....My question is...why this venom reserved for US of A

This must have been answered a million times here. They gift free weapons to Pakistan, in addition to keeping their economy afloat. Selling expensive weapons to India is a nice way to recover the money they pour down pakistan (literally) isn't it? When we don't have a choice, like in the case of the C-130, C-17 and M777, we can't help but buy from them. In this case we have multiple choices. All fairly equal in capability.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Mar 2011 01:46

GeorgeWelch wrote:The US might be the only one willing to take your side against China. I'm not saying they will (insert joke about China owning US here), but there is zero chance of anyone else doing it.

That is a load of horse shit with just a sprinkle of fairy dust to make the shit smell good. Alas the GOI has bought that fairy tale story. We deserve mediocrity.

No country is going to support India in a war against China. India is on her own. Making speeches expressing solidarity with India (in an Indo-China War) is different from actually supporting us militarily in a war against China. And lets be realistic, the US is not about to destroy its relationship with its second largest trading partner to support us. Not about to happen.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 Mar 2011 02:19

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Acharya wrote:All tech offered by US to India are atleast 30 year old designs.

Acharya wrote:All other countries support us in the global forum taking our sides even against our rivals.

US cannot do that for India now or in the future.
The US might be the only one willing to take your side against China. I'm not saying they will (insert joke about China owning US here), but there is zero chance of anyone else doing it.

Talking is easy but the last 63 years of 'support' will show you why is that.
US China trade is so much and the US treasury notes held by PRC will not allow US for much change in policy.

The funds for PRC for its military is based from trade with US.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Mar 2011 03:49

Rakesh wrote:Making speeches expressing solidarity with India (in an Indo-China War) is different from actually supporting us militarily in a war against China. And lets be realistic, the US is not about to destroy its relationship with its second largest trading partner to support us. Not about to happen.

The relationship is just as, if not more, important to China. If they suddenly weren't able to sell all their goods to the US, that would put a massive hurting on their economy.

I could easily see a situation where the US supplies arms to India while trade continues as usual because neither side can really afford to cut it off.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Mar 2011 05:03

case in point how the US supplies arms to Pakistan while trade with India continues as usual...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Mar 2011 07:05

Rakesh wrote:Rule Change: I will now only buy mithai if the GOI selects Rafale/Typhoon.

Also 15 tons is easier than 5000 tons

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Mar 2011 07:30

Acharya wrote: the last 63 years of 'support' will show you why is that.

We'd have a more productive discussion if we focused on the next 63 years.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 Mar 2011 07:48

Victor wrote:
Acharya wrote: the last 63 years of 'support' will show you why is that.
We'd have a more productive discussion if we focused on the next 63 years.

There is always time for the future . India has been trying to get the colonial vestige out of itself for so many years that it is looking towards the future without any baggage. Before that another pretend power come along

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Mar 2011 08:53

Since we are discussing about rule change, here is one:

http://www.hindu.com/2011/03/15/stories ... 061100.htm
Pro-U.S. tilt in Cabinet shuffle

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 15 Mar 2011 09:07

nachiket wrote:
RSoami wrote:
They gift free weapons to Pakistan, in addition to keeping their economy afloat. Selling expensive weapons to India is a nice way to recover the money they pour down pakistan (literally) isn't it?

...They dont gift free weapons anymore...They sometimes give super dangerous Soyabeans instead...Also they are keeping them afloat only till they need them...
...And we need to have the foresight to see that this Puki alliance is not going to last...

my first quote attempt gone wrong

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 15 Mar 2011 09:10

No free weapons anymore? Since when is anymore? P-3 orions, atgms, attack helicopters all dont classify ?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Mar 2011 09:34

Prasad wrote:No free weapons anymore? Since when is anymore? P-3 orions, atgms, attack helicopters all dont classify ?

Add F-16s, Perry class Frigates, M109 howiters, WLRs... RSoami, you have to realize that every weapon system that Pakistan buys from the US is directly financed by US aid to pakistan even if it is not ostensibly "free". The US is basically paying pakistan to buy US weapons. Without this generous help, the beggar nation would have had to either drastically reduce its defense budget or watch it's economy go belly up as it tried to maintain parity with the Indian military.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 15 Mar 2011 09:53

...They are keeping them afloat till they need them...Once US withdraws from Afghanistan I think this nautanki will stop and then US of A will need India to keep tab in things around here...
...I am only saying that we should have the foresight to see that they are going to need us(against China and terrorism) for a long time and in this context buying an American plane is not that bad...Or in fact aligning with US of A is not a bad option....
We have this mentality of trying to be friends with everyone rather than aligning with a few according to changing strategic scenarios...
Regards

koti · Post by **koti** » 15 Mar 2011 11:15

nachiket wrote:
Prasad wrote:No free weapons anymore? Since when is anymore? P-3 orions, atgms, attack helicopters all dont classify ?
Add F-16s, Perry class Frigates, M109 howiters, WLRs... RSoami, you have to realize that every weapon system that Pakistan buys from the US is directly financed by US aid to pakistan even if it is not ostensibly "free". The US is basically paying pakistan to buy US weapons. Without this generous help, the beggar nation would have had to either drastically reduce its defense budget or watch it's economy go belly up as it tried to maintain parity with the Indian military.

Seeing it from a different perspective, Does anyone think that this act of balancing(?) is good for the neighbourhood?

And suggest a more relevant thread.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 Mar 2011 11:24

RSoami wrote:.
...I am only saying that we should have the foresight to see that they are going to need us(against China and terrorism) for a long time and in this context buying an American plane is not that bad...Or in fact aligning with US of A is not a bad option....
We have this mentality of trying to be friends with everyone rather than aligning with a few according to changing strategic scenarios...
Regards

This the not the change India wants to align with deeply which is against Indian interest.
Just by being indifferent to American alignment India can influence the future of the global order. US is constrained not by lack of sufficient power but by lack of global cooperation. India is needed but they are unwilling to give what India needs
Mentality of being friends with everyone is the correct strategy in the new century. Indian interest is the most important.

The emerging powers cannot dictate the shape of the coming era, but they can block and complicate U.S. initiative. From its new position, the United States confronts not a rigid bloc of emerging powers, but complex and shifting coalitions of interest. The greatest risk lies, not in a single peer competitor, but in the erosion of cooperation on issues vital to U.S. interests and a stable order. U.S. power is indispensible for that purpose, but not sufficient.

When historians assess America's role in the world after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, they will judge the early failures in Afghanistan, and weigh the costs of the Iraq war against its eventual outcomes (still uncertain). They will balance the deepening of the strategic relationship with India against the deterioration, and eventual reset, of relations with Russia.

They will surely debate this question: did American overstretch amplify the impact of the rise of the "emerging powers?

The emerging powers cannot dictate the shape of the coming era, but they can block and complicate U.S. initiative.

U.S. power is indispensible for international order, but not sufficient. No longer the CEO of Free World Inc., the United States now holds a position akin to that of the largest minority shareholder in Global Order LLC.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... r?page=0,0

koti · Post by **koti** » 15 Mar 2011 11:50

^^ You seem to be from operations department sir. Am I right?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 Mar 2011 11:52

koti wrote:^^ You seem to be from operations department sir. Am I right?

Not really. I have been trained to think. I have to thank a strategy prof for this.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 15 Mar 2011 12:10

Nahi sirjee,
I disagree...Being friends with everyone is the wrong strategy...1962 must have taught us that...And I am saying that when talking of national interest...
By being friends with everyone we are making ourself vulnerable to be left in the lurch at crisis times by everyone and ....that when we are surrounded by two hostile neighbours....
I guess I am stretching my luck by typing all this in MRCA dhaaga..So i will stop..
By the way, would not mind seeing F16 being bought at all...
Regards
Have fun
Ta

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 Mar 2011 12:15

May be 10 F16 will be good. For every lost plane India will buy a F16. That is a good plan