Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Feb. 12, 2011

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Mar 2011 06:41

shyamd wrote:
SUSHANT SAREEN, a key Pakistan expert at India’s premier strategic think-tank Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), believes only a credible engagement with Pakistan’s military will bring peace in the region. He even ridicules dependence on the civil society of Pakistan for raising a constituency of peace. According to Sareen, what goes as civil society in Pakistan is really a fringe group of around 1,000 people, which, if one is very charitable, can be raised to 5,000.

Get ready for some liberal outrage about how India is weakening age old democracy in Pakistan by talking to the army.

You have highlighted a lot of sentences, but left out the most sensible and truthful of the bunch....

Which actually means the rest are suppressed minorities and fanatic barbarian animals, so there is no point in talking to the rest. Just offer asylum to the 1,000 when time comes and nuke the rest..

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Mar 2011 06:44

Karna_A wrote:
It's surprising that even the most anti-US spokesperson keep CENTCOM on such pedestal.
Training with CENTCOM would be more beneficial to CENTCOM than to Indian Army.

Indian Army has much better experience in fighting South Asian wars and militancy than CENTCOM would ever have, and it's in Unkil's interest that they take training with IA to fine tune their Land, jungle and mountain warfare capabilities.

OTOH, US F-16s matched against Indian fighters can be more beneficial to IAF and overall preparedness.

Who is the "most anti-US spokesperson"
US support to PA is shown in the form of CENTCOM interaction for the last 30 years. If CENTCOM changes it stand it changes the balance/allegiance against PA.
That is all you have to read in this maneuver. It is not about what they learn in the training. PACOM already trains with Indian Army.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Mar 2011 06:51

When it comes to culling animals in Pakistan, even wind seems to love it...

Wind storm kills 10

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Mar 2011 06:53

ShyamD, You need to elaborate on the pressures and demands on TSPA which make it weak and overstretched. Not many know this aspect.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Mar 2011 06:54

Meanwhile, Pakbaians, tired of using rifles and bullets in target killings, which waste a lot of time, now take to grenades...giving hopes the process of culling the impure can be speed up...

Grenade attack on PPP office

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Mar 2011 07:00

Just occurred to me that the roughly 50% Pakistanis who are under 21 cannot be rightly held responsible for Pakistan - they are too young to have had a say.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Mar 2011 07:01

A_Gupta wrote:Just occurred to me that the roughly 50% Pakistanis who are under 21 cannot be rightly held responsible for Pakistan - they are too young to have had a say.

That is it. Just the generation which saw the defeat of 1971 when they are gone the country can be changed forever. 79% of the pop was born after 1971

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Mar 2011 07:06

Qadri was one of the post 71 generation...it is better to call them post-Zia generation...with them TSP's future is bright indeed..

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Mar 2011 07:14

Suppiah wrote:Qadri was one of the post 71 generation...it is better to call them post-Zia generation...with them TSP's future is bright indeed..

2011 - 21 = 1990. Zia gone 1988. Really - to get permanent change in Pakistan this generation must be captured.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Mar 2011 07:17

A_Gupta wrote:
Suppiah wrote:Qadri was one of the post 71 generation...it is better to call them post-Zia generation...with them TSP's future is bright indeed..
2011 - 21 = 1990. Zia gone 1988. Really - to get permanent change in Pakistan this generation must be captured.

Zia gone but the systems and processes he put in place is breeding barbaric animals and let them infiltrate the military is active and functioning even today, let alone 1988. BTW Qadri was reported as 26, not 21.

This generation of Pakbarians must be captured - yes. Captured and sent to a lunatic asylum.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Mar 2011 07:17

A_Gupta wrote:
Suppiah wrote:Qadri was one of the post 71 generation...it is better to call them post-Zia generation...with them TSP's future is bright indeed..
2011 - 21 = 1990. Zia gone 1988. Really - to get permanent change in Pakistan this generation must be captured.

They are mostly socially eng generation but really never fought war or af-pak war. Their first war is really US war on terror and UD drones striking inisde their country.

India is an image of hatred but inside their house it is world of bollywood.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Mar 2011 07:54

A_Gupta wrote:
Suppiah wrote:Qadri was one of the post 71 generation...it is better to call them post-Zia generation...with them TSP's future is bright indeed..
2011 - 21 = 1990. Zia gone 1988. Really - to get permanent change in Pakistan this generation must be captured.

But, this generation has already been captured by a variety of Islamists, ranging from right wing politico-religious parties, sectarian tanzeems, to jihadi outfits. This is indeed the problem of Pakistan. Even if one were not a madrassah-educated bigot, the pernicious concepts have seeped into mainstream education as well. In circa 1960, Jama'at-e-Islami formally integrated extremism into mainstream politics by taking the help of Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt. Till then, the chief ideologue, Maududi, was not into violence and terrorism though he led the anti-Ahmedi riots of c. 1953. However, the Muslim Brotherhood had extraordinary experience in marrying violence and terror and politics and JI took their assistance. There has been no going back since then as the explosive mix of ideology and terrorism was inextricably linked. The violence by the Muslim League during pre-partition time was not based on deep Islamic ideology as the Muslim League's Islamism was shallow. Maududi, on the other hand, was one of the two thinker-pillars of Islamism in 20th century (the other being Sayyid Qutb of Egypt).

Even though, as many point out, JI does not win elections (from the beginning, Maududi was not too enamoured of contesting and winning democratic elections and this inertia persists), it can mass-mobilize emotions and sway public opinion. The GoP and the PA are influenced by statements from the JI headquarters.

It is therefore my opinion that even if Pakistan were to suddenly turn a normal country, it will still take three or four generations before the positive effects of that would be felt by us. However, there is no such possibility one sees in the horizon and OTOH we only see more Islamism of a purer variety overwhelming and overrunning the country.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Mar 2011 08:17

SSridhar wrote:
It is therefore my opinion that even if Pakistan were to suddenly turn a normal country, it will still take three or four generations before the positive effects of that would be felt by us. However, there is no such possibility one sees in the horizon and OTOH we only see more Islamism of a purer variety overwhelming and overrunning the country.

The state apparatus will have to support the new de toxified generation with new laws and allow non sharia based system in the country. This will take a long time.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2011 08:39

Acharya wrote: They are mostly socially eng generation but really never fought war or af-pak war. Their first war is really US war on terror and UD drones striking inisde their country.

India is an image of hatred but inside their house it is world of bollywood.

Acharya that is an interesting point.

I find it difficult to say the following because it can be criticized on so many counts - but every time India avoids war with Pakistan while Pakis kill each other, or are killed by Americans - the idea that India is the enemy is going to get more and more difficult to reinforce. One war with India is needed to imprint on generations for the next 30 -40 years that India is the enemy. If that war should occur Inda should plan to break up Pakistan so we do not have an intact Pakistan with anti-India people cooking for the next 30 years.

Of course war with Pakistan would be easier the weaker the Paki military is relative to India.

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 Mar 2011 08:41

Apparently Dr. Shireen Mazari is not persona non grata at the Nation reportedly because the owner of the Nation, the rabidly Sunni Mohammaden bigot Majid Nizami, discovered that she had recently changed sect to the Shia form of Mohammadenism

A duplicitous state: An orphaned nation

Savour the Jalebi served up.

saip · Post by **saip** » 20 Mar 2011 08:50

arun wrote:Apparently Dr. Shireen Mazari is not persona non grata at the Nation reportedly because the owner of the Nation, the rabidly Sunni Mohammaden bigot Majid Nizami, discovered that she had recently changed sect to the Shia form of Mohammadenism

A duplicitous state: An orphaned nation

Savour the Jalebi served up.

It is indeed an irony that the “liberals”, who have been against Shariah, are now applauding the Diyat law, which allowed Davis to be set free!It is indeed an irony that the “liberals”, who have been against Shariah, are now applauding the Diyat law, which allowed Davis to be set free!

The real irony is that the religious bigots who fought for this Shariah are now condemning its use in Davis case.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Mar 2011 08:52

^^ That is not true...the pure will deny that the release was in accordance with Shariah...they are not against it. And they are probably right..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Mar 2011 08:58

shiv wrote:I find it difficult to say the following because it can be criticized on so many counts - but every time India avoids war with Pakistan while Pakis kill each other, or are killed by Americans - the idea that India is the enemy is going to get more and more difficult to reinforce. One war with India is needed to imprint on generations for the next 30 -40 years that India is the enemy.

Shiv, your statement is true to some extent. Pakistani 'establishment' realizes that. In Kargil, India did not avoid war but other powers intervened and the drubing was so severe that political support within Pakistan itself waned and a full-fledged war could not result. They now know that there are limits to their ability to thrust a war on India unlike earlier times and India should be provoked into launching one unilaterally. They also realize that this may not happen for several reasons. That is why, they have the Yahud-Hunud-Nazara conspiracy which LeT also dubs as Brahminic-Tulmadic-Crusader conspiracy. All Drone, Taliban, sectarian attacks (except on Ahmedis for which they take credit) are therefore conveniently dumped on one of these evil people which then sticks to the other two equally. Mumbai, Parliament, Chotisinghpura-type attacks were dubbed as self-inflicted wounds by RAW which was then attributed to Pakistan by the evil Hindus. A sustained propaganda of water theft by India can cause even more damage than a war and Pakistan is engaged in that too. Look at the amount of money and efforts that they are consistently spending on Baglihar and Kishenganga knowing fully well that they have (had) no case there. Any misfortune that befalls Pakistan is a candidate for Yahud-Hunud-Nasara mischief and the Pakistani 'establishment' does not let go of this. Recent flooding, campaign for polio-vaccination are examples. The avenues are many. The hatred and enmity are thus maintained. But, I agree with you that a war will certainly take the hatred a few levels up.

saip · Post by **saip** » 20 Mar 2011 09:00

Despite the double murders, the evidence of espionage and possession of illegal weapons, the criminal Davis has been set free by a wrongful use of the Diyat provision in Pakistani law

She claims it is wrongful use!

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 20 Mar 2011 09:02

damn you arun....beat me to it

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 Mar 2011 09:08

Bagged the hag this week

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 Mar 2011 09:09

Joel Brinkley writes in the San Francisco Chronicle that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a very poor investment for the US with little to show for the some USD 22 Billion of American charity expended so far.

What Mr. Brinkley fails to understand is that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan does not view this US largesse as charity as he does but instead views this largesse as the divinely sanctioned payment of Jaziya by the Kaafir Crusader Infidels of the US to the sole Islamic nuclear power and world’s first IEDological Muslim State:

What does Pakistan do for the United States?

Since 2001, this country has given Pakistan at least $22 billion in aid, so Americans certainly should expect something in return. That's nearly enough money to erase California's long-standing budget deficit or fund the state of Missouri for one year. ……………………

What does Pakistan do for the United States?

Steal our money, threaten and imprison our people, loathe and abuse us. Why can't anyone in Washington ever seem to figure this out?

Read it all:

Pakistan a bad investment for U.S.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 20 Mar 2011 09:13

The following article on CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/ ... index.html

Causing big big H&D issue on deaf and dumb fora

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2011 09:14

saip wrote:
Despite the double murders, the evidence of espionage and possession of illegal weapons, the criminal Davis has been set free by a wrongful use of the Diyat provision in Pakistani law
She claims it is wrongful use!

Well if you have a "system of justice" in the form of a jury system and several levels of courts of appeal then it is possible to argue all the nuances of such a case. Neither sharia nor Pakistan have that level of leeway to argue all aspects of a case. Pakistan is the frigging country where BB gets shot and the scene is hosed down. The hag who wrote that article Shireen Mazari is a ludicrous old lump of lard well beyond its use by date who is being sidelined into the back alleys of ignominy where she rightfully belongs. Pthoooh.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2011 09:18

Suppiah wrote:
shyamd wrote:
SUSHANT SAREEN, a key Pakistan expert at India’s premier strategic think-tank Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), believes only a credible engagement with Pakistan’s military will bring peace in the region. He even ridicules dependence on the civil society of Pakistan for raising a constituency of peace. According to Sareen, what goes as civil society in Pakistan is really a fringe group of around 1,000 people, which, if one is very charitable, can be raised to 5,000.

Get ready for some liberal outrage about how India is weakening age old democracy in Pakistan by talking to the army.
You have highlighted a lot of sentences, but left out the most sensible and truthful of the bunch....

Which actually means the rest are suppressed minorities and fanatic barbarian animals, so there is no point in talking to the rest. Just offer asylum to the 1,000 when time comes and nuke the rest..

Good catch Suppiah. The article is archivable just on this data point

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Mar 2011 10:40

SSridhar wrote:
Bit, this generation has already been captured by a variety of Islamists, ranging from right wing politico-religious parties, sectarian tanzeems, to jihadi outfits. This is indeed the problem of Pakistan. Even if one were not a madrassah-educated bigot, the pernicious concepts have seeped into mainstream education as well. In circa 1960, Jama'at-e-Islami formally integrated extremism into mainstream politics by taking the help of Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt. Till then, the chief ideologue, Maududi, was not into violence and terrorism though he led the anti-Ahmedi riots of c. 1953. However, the Muslim Brotherhood had extraordinary experience in marrying violence and terror and politics and JI took their assistance. There has been no going back since then as the explosive mix of ideology and terrorism was inextricably linked. The violence by the Muslim League during pre-partition time was not based on deep Islamic ideology as the Muslim League's Islamism was shallow. Maududi, on the other hand, was one of the two thinker-pillars of Islamism in 20th century (the other being Sayyid Qutb of Egypt).

Very important
The Muslim Brotherhood has a link to the US and US influence in the future of the MB and its derivatives.
US has a link to the Maududi and has influenced the evolution inside Pakistan from the early decades

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Mar 2011 10:57

Meanwhile:
The CIA Drone Program in Pakistan

Bandari airfield at Shamsi, Balochistan.

Even as Kiyani huffs and puffs and wags a finger at the US over the drone strikes being carried out in pakistan, a cursory look at this one airfield tells a different tale. The facilities on this base have been continuously expanding over a period of time. All this angst expressed by the Pakistani politicians and now Kiyani himself is all for the abduls on the streets of Pakistan.

June 20, 2003

July 2, 2004

March 30, 2007

July 12, 2010

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Mar 2011 11:19

Gaganullah, that is amazing compilation!!!

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Mar 2011 11:32

Gagan has shown what it takes to be a Mullah as opposed to just a suicide bummer mujahid...I hope someone in IA sees this..and more importantly someone can post this in every paki forum for the abduls to get even more mad at their bangle-wearing generals. (hope the courier has reached Assfcuk by now)

Talking of fora, wanted to register for defndumb but got rejected (no response)

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Mar 2011 11:38

What's all this bakwaas that the ISI has spinned, that the PAF has taken to the skies and will shoot down any drone in the sky.
If the pakistanis are so badly opposed to the drone program.

The point is why take the takleef of shooting down the drones from the sky.

Why not prevent them from taking off hain ji?

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Mar 2011 11:45

From D&D

I am just wondering after US leaves Afghanistan, who will hire Pakistan Army. they need the contract money coming so there is no disruption in their comfortable life

...lol

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Mar 2011 11:49

The angst against the Pakistani Army amongst the abduls in pakistan is fast approaching the levels after Dec 16, 1971.

LOL, who knows maybe something 'interesting' might happen.

But a word of caution: The Pakistani Army is under tremendous pressure right now. We all know how this pressure gets relieved, a good old distraction - creating a national level threat to Pakistan that will distract the abduls might be getting the green light just about now.
The ISI will most likely give the go ahead to the LET / 313 brigade to conduct a major terrorist strike on India.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 20 Mar 2011 12:11

After water and air, now it is the turn of gas (methane) to cull Pakis

http://www.dawn.com/2011/03/20/explosio ... uetta.html

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Mar 2011 12:17

Gagan, fantastic piece of work. All this investment has not gone waste for PA. May be they didn't even invest, it was all done by the Americans anyway. I am sure that Pakistan will get drones if not the technology.

partha · Post by **partha** » 20 Mar 2011 12:24

SSji,

Any idea in whose control is Shamsi airbase? I was of the opinion that it is operated *only* by CIA. Or is it jointly operated by PAF and CIA? If uncle is the sole operator, then PAF may not benefit since uncle may leave the base lock stock and barrel after it's goals are met.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 20 Mar 2011 12:39

But USN's UCLASS RFI indicates US is prepared to cut and run and continue drone operations in the eventuality (2018?) that pak army denies them those bases. I esp. like the "contested airspace" requirement. Maybe UCLASS also has applications in Iran.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 20 Mar 2011 12:41

If US cuts and run with its tail in between its legs , how will it get the ground intelligence ?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Mar 2011 12:56

Intel gathering is not a zero sum game.
Information is collected from all available sources and then analyzed and put in perspective.

The possible sources are:
1. ISI, other pakistani intel agencies, officers in the Pakistani army, GHQ pindi.
2. RAW
3. Other intel agencies. ANY intel agency.
4. Information bought from locals, terrorists (who want to bitch about their opponents). Most intel agencies maintain contacts will terrorist groups.
5. Field agents
6. SIGINT and electronic intel. The US NSA can sitting in Maryland tap ANY public telephone across the world, the satellites can tap any wireless communication in the world, the US can filter almost any byte of data on the net should it choose to.

etc etc.

Pakistan is not a military power that the US is concerned about its military preparedness, it is only the nukes that Pakistan has that the US keeps a close watch on. The rest of the military preparedness is probably just run of the mill orbat maintainence.

Intel gathering NEVER withdraws from a country. The more hostile a country is, the more aggressive is the intel gathering and covert ops setup. And Pakistan is today the SINGLE MOST HOSTILE NATION from the US's POV.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Mar 2011 13:10

partha wrote:Any idea in whose control is Shamsi airbase? I was of the opinion that it is operated *only* by CIA. Or is it jointly operated by PAF and CIA? If uncle is the sole operator, then PAF may not benefit since uncle may leave the base lock stock and barrel after it's goals are met.

Partha, I have no idea but it would be inconceivable for PAF to have completely abdicated the air strip to the Americans. Even if they would have, we can expect the Americans not to demolish all the construction if and when they leave. At least, Pakistanis would request and the Americans would concede. My information is that when the Americans left Badaber Airbase after the U2 ugly incident, they left behind everything save the U2s and some sensitive equipment.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Mar 2011 13:14

Most of the US hangers we see are Air conditioned, tents and prefabricated hangers that can be dismantled and transported out.

Even if the base is in the US's hands, there has to be both a PAF and a PA liason officers physically present on the premises to smoothen things out. The perimeter security might even be with the PA / PAF (or atleast the outermost ring of security).