Libyan War

[shiv]

our Gandhian netas are too interested in unleashing rapist goons on their citizens and chunks on dossiers on their enemies while pontificating on "moral high ground".

Continuing with an OT reply, the philosophical point here that must not be missed is that when you release your armed goons on some other country it is seen as admirable and honourable. But when you use them on your own countrymen it is a shame. Maybe that is why our netas thought Gadhafi was on to a good thing and protested meekly when the west attacked?

[anishns]

So, true and we will be "invited" to sit on the high council as permanent members because GoI is on a ganja induced "moral high ground"

Heard quite a few callsigns "BOLAR xx" going to Aviano on the ATC chatter - I guess quite a few C5A Galaxies shuttling with war materiel to Italy.

This would have been a good opportunity for IAF to participate in an expeditionary mission but then our Gandhian netas are too interested in unleashing rapist goons on their citizens and chunks on dossiers on their enemies while pontificating on "moral high ground".

[VinodTK]

Attack near Indian embassy in Libya

[Craig Alpert]

an overview of the allied operations in 2011 military intervention in Libya

[Singha]

the rebel forces appear too lightly equipped and unschooled to fight dug-in regime loyalists holding on to key towns.
they attack in full enthu but a stout defence drives them back in disarray. ... like a pack of horsemen of old without much strategy.

methinks if the idea to empower the rebels to advance up the coast to tripoli , four things are needed
- police the coastal highway to prevent regime reinforcements from west or movement from city to city [ western SF units to vector airstrikes ]
- use the rebels to attack and draw out defensive positions and hit with tactical air [ again western SF needed to pinpoint and guide ], teach them how to bypass positions using alternative routes through the desert, while leaving a small siege in place
- give the rebels heavier weapons like LAW, RCL, mortars and RPG liberally via egyptian border..make this the elite unit staffed solely with army veterans who defected..embed some 'contractors' to guide and manage them
- encourage the southern commanders and tribes in places like Sheba to defect and open another line of pressure from south to tripoli, cut off his back door route to niger and chad

if the idea of "no boots on ground" is applied strictly the rebels cannot win this. even in afghanistan the northern alliance with veteran fighters would have had a hard time in places like shomali plains if not for the B52s and their handlers.

with all four factors in place, maybe the rebels can take tripoli in 2 months time, but it will be a hard slog without any western infantry on the ground.

rumours say the MEU currently afloat offshore is a emergency reserve landing force should the regime start massacres in some coastal city.

[Austin]

Looking at the entire video (Bulgarian TV crew I think), it looks like it was an engine flame out.
There was no visible SAM contrail, and no AAA visible or audible.

I'm surprised at the time it took for the pilot to eject. Trying to get out of the area, and left it till too late?

Yes that is what I said and looked to me initially , there is no visible SAM contrail. The other hits could be from Ack Ack guns , there were couple of Zu-23-2 guns firing at the aircraft saw it on another video.

So I think it could be a 23 mm bullet hit causing fire or a engine flameout. Pilot could be trying hard to save his aircraft and could have felt short on time.

[rsharma]

Looks like a MANPAD hit.
In the pic above, the fire seems to be emanating from the entire starboard side, right from the duct upto to the exhaust.

In any case, highly unlikely that the a/c suffered a flame out. Flame-out won't result in such a fire.

Just my tuppence though.

[Klaus]

Gaddafi's forces f**king up and buckling under pressure. Reports state that a kamikaze attack has claimed Khamis, the Colonel's sixth son.

[Singha]

kamikaze as in a rebel plane? or soocide truck?

the spirit of the bushido lives again!

[Klaus]

A Libyan Air Force pilot has crashed his plane into one of Gaddafi's barracks, but this claim is denied by the government. Coalition forces state that it was their cruise missiles which have claimed Khamis.

Link.

Only an analysis of the debris can confirm the claims.

[Viv S]

This one still cracks me up -

DATE:16/01/07
SOURCE:Flightglobal.com

Libya 'to order 13-18 Dassault Rafale fighter jets', rejecting Eurofighter, French press reports

By Justin Wastnage


Libyan leader Col Muammar al-Gaddafi has reportedly selected the Dassault Aviation Rafale fighter jet to re-equip the country's air force ahead of the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Libya is reportedly close to finalising an order for between 13 and 18 Rafales in a deal worth as much as €2.5 billion ($3.24 billion), French Sunday newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche says.

The newspaper cites industry sources and government insiders as saying Gaddafi chose the French offer over a refurbishing of and unspecified number of the country's mixed RSK MiG fleet of Mig-21s, -23 and -25s. Proposals from China and Russia were also considered, the report continues.
If true, the deal would be the first export order for the Rafale.
The deal is expected later this year, once technical discussions with Dassault have been completed, it continues.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... press.html

[chetak]

the rebel forces appear too lightly equipped and unschooled to fight dug-in regime loyalists holding on to key towns.
they attack in full enthu but a stout defence drives them back in disarray. ... like a pack of horsemen of old without much strategy.

methinks if the idea to empower the rebels to advance up the coast to tripoli , four things are needed
- police the coastal highway to prevent regime reinforcements from west or movement from city to city [ western SF units to vector airstrikes ]
- use the rebels to attack and draw out defensive positions and hit with tactical air [ again western SF needed to pinpoint and guide ], teach them how to bypass positions using alternative routes through the desert, while leaving a small siege in place
- give the rebels heavier weapons like LAW, RCL, mortars and RPG liberally via egyptian border..make this the elite unit staffed solely with army veterans who defected..embed some 'contractors' to guide and manage them
- encourage the southern commanders and tribes in places like Sheba to defect and open another line of pressure from south to tripoli, cut off his back door route to niger and chad

if the idea of "no boots on ground" is applied strictly the rebels cannot win this. even in afghanistan the northern alliance with veteran fighters would have had a hard time in places like shomali plains if not for the B52s and their handlers.

with all four factors in place, maybe the rebels can take tripoli in 2 months time, but it will be a hard slog without any western infantry on the ground.

rumours say the MEU currently afloat offshore is a emergency reserve landing force should the regime start massacres in some coastal city.

obama's second term is at stake.

The us of a just cannot afford another f***up on top of iraq and afghanistan.

[Singha]

a huge collection of libya war pics, updated continuously...
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... and-Videos

looking at the std of dress and people in rebel 'army' it seems to span a wide variation:
- really old people with white beards but inshallah still defiant and able to fight for their rights, true patriots out for revenge
- silent looking trans-national jihadi types
- urban well fed youngsters in sneakers, nautica jackets and jeans out for a lark and a spot of loot and shooting
- deserters from libyan army , ill equipped and mixed up with the rabble or perhaps they were rabble units to start with
- a few scary looking people - grizzled with age, unknown battles and survivalist outdoor living, wielding machine guns or RPGs as personal weapons...could be full time hermits from up in the mountains, rice n fish types who had too much sun...either way quite mean and hair-trigger dangerous in a unpredictable kind of way...the kind who would drive 200 miles with a enemy's head tied to his bumper
- enthu rageboys armed with staves, pickaxes and pen knives , street cats out to claw anyone they can, maybe rob a bank on the side
- their armed columns consist of comandeered cars and pickups with hardly anything suitable for X-country work (unless its a recaptured libyan army gear). no sign of any AL Stallion type 4x4..probably the first war in human history where armoured division consists of old honda civics and toyota corollas.

now whipping this rag tag lot into shape, melding them into disciplined fire teams, keeping them motivated and well paid to be on the march for a month or two is a serious challenge imho. this kind of 'unit' is more like armed mob - quick victories will swell its ranks fast, a hard defeat will lead to a instant contagion of panic we have seen this - a headlong rush turns into a mad retreat in moments.

if any real military man is in charge of the rebels they need to separate out the ex-army and survivalist types into separate elite units and give them the real tasks and best weapons / fuel / food. give them a name, a identity, a motto and respect. instill some pride in the boys. call them "Fakhr-e-Khamsin" or something. catch hold of desert dwelling nomads as guides to find alternate routes...

[Multatuli]

I think it's certain that the US/UK/France have inserted special forces to cue the air strikes. With such a fluid situation on the ground it's impossible for pilots to distinguish between neutral civilians, armed rebels, unarmed rebels, Libyan troops (regulars) and militia loyal to Gadhafi. We saw this in Iraq/Afghanistan where American and British attack helicopters and aircraft would frequently kill civilians, they even attacked ambulances.

[Lalmohan]

managing the militia is indeed the next challenge
their only hope of victory is if the remaining units around gaddafi fold - possibly on the death of saif
as per praveen swamy's article, there is no opposition leadership as such - it will take a senior level defector to lead the movement
increasingly partition seems to be a likely outcome
as ever the arab league are prevaricating
meanwhile, the coalition airforces would be wise to take a back seat and let qatari mirages be seen to be 'policing the skies'

[Jeff Lira]

US is now considering to hand over the command of military operation in Libya to either UK, France or NATO, though RAF Typhoon was used to patrol the region, Britain is now sending more and more planes to the base in Italy after this news to take over the command.
US to Hand Over The Command of Military Operation in Libya to UK, France or NATO

[Singha]

twitter kursed: Strike on Ghardabiya Airfield soaked up three complete B-2 loads and more than 1/3 of the first night's 124 TLAM : http://j.mp/fJoSsj

--
if this be true, that means 40 heavy JDAMs and 40 Tomahawks....there aint going to be much left there useable after 80 hits.

[Singha]

http://cencio4.wordpress.com/2011/03/22 ... ned-day-3/

[Singha]

keep one eye on acig forums too. tomC has gone active.

[vivekmehta]

15:40 PM Just in: US warplane crashes in field in Libya. Details awaited.

[SureshP]

F15E crash in a field due to mechanical failure. Pilot safe in hands of rebel forces. One pilot safe other in process of recovery.

[Singha]

well so its atleast proven that F-15E's are active...Unkil was acting very coy about it.

[Pratyush]

keep one eye on acig forums too. tomC has gone active.

Unable to access the forum am getting error message

[Singha]

BBC

Britain steps up Libya no-fly zone mission
Typhoon takes off from Gioia del Colle airbase The RAF's Typhoon - or Eurofighter - is primarily used in air-to-air combat


Britain's contribution to efforts by coalition forces to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya is being stepped up.

The operation to move British aircraft to a base in southern Italy ready for missions is nearly complete, after the arrival of about a dozen planes.

RAF Typhoon fighters have taken part in their first mission to patrol the zone.

It came as Armed Forces minister Nick Harvey said it was unclear how long the mission would take, adding that using ground troops "could not be ruled out".

He told the BBC: "We don't know how long this is going to go on for, we don't know for example... whether this might arrive at a state of stalemate or whether in a sense it will be possible to degrade his military capability relatively fast.

"Ask me again in a week, perhaps we'll have a clearer picture of what sort of scale of campaign we're in for."

His comments followed disagreement over whether Col Gaddafi himself could be targeted under the UN resolution 1973, after the head of the armed forces, Gen Sir David Richards, said it "absolutely" did not cover such an eventuality.

However, this was later disputed by government sources, who said, if there was evidence that Col Gaddafi was involved in violence against civilians, he could be a legitimate target.

Former head of the Royal Navy, and former security minister, Lord West told the BBC's Today programme there had "clearly been some confusion within government" and they were "a little bit muddled".

"We need to be extremely careful. We're not into a campaign where part of it is to try and find him and hunt him out and kill him, which is the image that we will be given.

"And that will make it very difficult for the coalition if there was any feeling that that was part of it."

Meanwhile, amid a third night of missile strikes, a government motion to support action in Libya won a majority of 544 votes in the House of Commons.

The debate focused on resolution 1973, which was passed by the United Nations Security Council last week.

This authorises "all necessary measures", short of bringing in an occupying force, to protect Libyan citizens from the Gaddafi regime, which has been fighting rebel forces.

The Commons motion - which was backed by 557 MPs and opposed by 13 - followed continued US-led action in Libya, with Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's sprawling Bab al-Aziziya complex, in the capital Tripoli, among the locations hit.

Libya's government has said more civilians have been killed in a third night of air and missile strikes by coalition forces.

Libyan government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim told a news conference that Monday's air and missile strikes had caused "numerous" civilian casualties, especially at the "civilian airport" in Sirte.


The RAF now has 10 Typhoon and four tornado jets at the Gioia del Colle base in southern Italy, which is about an hour from Libya by air.

The Tornados were initially being launched from RAF Marham in Norfolk, but are now being based in Italy along with the Typhoon jets.

The Chief of Defence Staff's spokesman, Major General John Lorimer, said the Typhoons had on Monday flown their first ever combat mission in relation to the no-fly zone.

"Coalition forces' action has, over the weekend, stopped Colonel Gaddafi's forces from seizing control of [rebel held] Benghazi," he said.

"GR4 Tornados left RAF Marham in Norfolk this afternoon on an air reconnaissance mission over Libya as part of Operation Ellamy.

"The Tornados have now landed at Gioia del Colle which will be their new base of operations, as we had planned," he said.

The action is in support of a UN resolution imposing a ban on all flights in Libyan airspace, excluding aid flights, to "protect civilians".

The UK is part of an international coalition, also including the US and France, trying to protect civilians from attacks by forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi.

Col Gaddafi has ruled Libya for more than 40 years. An uprising against him began last month after the longtime leaders of neighbouring Tunisia and Egypt were toppled.

[Singha]

Italy has not used any Typhoon and no plans to - on paper far superior to the tornado
Spain has not used any Typhoon and no plans to - on paper far superior to the F-18 it sent
UK has sent typjoon but seems clear that will be used for a2a only.
germany is not there.

this for an a/c that attained FOC around 2006 albeit with many things demanded by IAF typically in mk1, pushed out to future "tranches"

the jury to me is clear - the typhoon is unlikely to be a2g capable as the F18/F16/Rafale without serious indian money over and above whatever is the unit cost.

if we are to pay a high unit cost - maybe better to get the F18 or Rafale for whom the capabilities already seem paid for and exist than start a years long indian investment into gaps which member nations are not interested to fill and now have no cash for.

and we have no idea what those new capabilities would do to change the typhoon performance, while we can see firsthand on demand what f18/rafale does on such roles.

[SaiK]

The new capabilities funded by indian money, (of course as a future partner - equal share of profit), may exceed MKI A2G features. But, the exact life cycle cost, and cost reduction based on being a partner needs to be known first.


low flying

[SureshP]

Typhoon appear to be be for show only. Real action is undertaken primarily by Rafael F18's F15E's and just a bit by the tornados

[Pratik_S]

F15E crash in a field due to mechanical failure. Pilot safe in hands of rebel forces. One pilot safe other in process of recovery.

15:40 PM Just in: US warplane crashes in field in Libya. Details awaited.

Both pilots safe, one rescued by a USMC Osprey while other by the rebels and is now safe in american hands.
http://www.ksdk.com/rss/article/250760/ ... cts-safely
http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... ilots.html

[Surya]

even Rafaels I have my doubt - they probably launched some standoff stuff (understandable as it is expensive asset0


Real mud moving is all khan planes and myabe m2ks

So maybe George welch was right - the europeans are a long way from any real capability.

[ManuT]

I guess, in the desert, devoid of features, all UN mandated forces have to ensure, while degrading pro Gadha-fi assets, is  prevention of movement and resupply in Libya, to the point their internal cohesion breaks down. That should even out the odds for the rebel forces. It might a little longer but Kosovo model of 'no boots on the ground' could work.

Blue helmets would need to be deployed, in such a situation, in accepting the surrender and dismantling of the Gadha-fi regime leading to elections. 

India, for its part, might want to start thinking about its participation or non-participation in such an eventuality.  

[Manish_Sharma]

Why is US using F15s and 16s for strikes and SH is missing from the action altogether? Wouldn't it be more convenient for SH to fly from nearest carrier to libya, fly strike and come back?

[shiv]

Why is US using F15s and 16s for strikes and SH is missing from the action altogether. Wouldn't it be more convenient for SH to fly from nearest carrier to libya, fly strike and come back.

Af-Pak. The 15s and 16s are in European bases I guess.

[Manish_Sharma]

^^Ok so italy being near libia, NATO countries pools their jets in their bases and strike from there. Thanks.

[Singha]

Old but still a patriot - got to respect this guy...he is at grandpa's age but maybe the regime made his family suffer.
http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/7522/800xa.jpg
alley cats out for a claw claw
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/1468/800xce.jpg
grizzled 'veterans' of many a war it looks like
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/8863/800xq.jpg

[Singha]

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3426/800xh.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1434/800xwf.jpg
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/662/800xpv.jpg
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4814/800xfb.jpg
a grave danger to anyone nearby
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3508/800xdt.jpg

as I mentioned in a longish post earlier in this thread, whipping and melding this ragtag lot together is a true challenge in organizational dynamics and HRD. even the feared Ibn Khalid or The Khan of Khans or Napolean himself would have trouble managing this lot in a serious campaign.

[ramana]

Folks this thread is for military technical details. Any political or policy matters in strat forum. GD need to keep reminding folks as you are the thread minder.

[SureshP]

Video of the crashed F15E including the aim120C with serial nos and seeker.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12819132

[shiv]

Video of the crashed F15E including the aim120C with serial nos and seeker.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12819132

Also AIM-9 at 1 min.

[Singha]

AA defence
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l21/josip25/ccc.jpg
http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/6118/800xv.jpg
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1389/800xy.jpg

[Multatuli]

Singha posted:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1434/800xwf.jpg

My God, Does she feel empowered or what. That is one women liberated woman there!

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/662/800xpv.jpg

The Libyan Che Guevara.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4814/800xfb.jpg

Jeehard!