2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

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GuruPrabhu
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by GuruPrabhu »

chaanakya wrote:
According to the Nuclear Information Resource Center (NIRS), this plutonium-uranium fuel mixture is far more dangerous than typical enriched uranium -- a single milligram (mg) of MOX is as deadly as 2,000,000 mg of normal enriched uranium.( not sure if this is correct, ahh sorry for using color , point doesn't become strong or facts correct just by being in black)
Must be wrong, absolutely. Why should I trust NIRS which I don't even know what it stands for.
uh, oh! Chanakya-ji has declared fatwa on MOX! There goes the famed "3-cycle" which was being touted as "safer" by some folks :rotfl:
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

GuruPrabhu wrote: uh, oh! Chanakya-ji has declared fatwa on MOX! There goes the famed "3-cycle" which was being touted as "safer" by some folks
Just contacted Deobandi VC for ratification.
On a side note

This WHO report puts things in perspective on radiation hazards, not only nuk accidents but all sorts vis a vis other toxins


http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_248.pdf
Last edited by chaanakya on 22 Mar 2011 23:36, edited 1 time in total.
Amber G.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

It was already posted by Suppiah but this is a good reference to put radiation doses in perspective:
http://xkcd.com/radiation/
(The source has given the permission to reproduce/copy the information and repost it - It is also available in many languages. The references are in the link)
http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/radiation.png
(Removed the inline image and posted the url, but please take a look)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Sorry, if posted earlier.. little different perspective than most reports...
Why Fukushima made me stop worrying and love nuclear power
You will not be surprised to hear that the events in Japan have changed my view of nuclear power. You will be surprised to hear how they have changed it. As a result of the disaster at Fukushima, I am no longer nuclear-neutral. I now support the technology.

A crappy old plant with inadequate safety features was hit by a monster earthquake and a vast tsunami. The electricity supply failed, knocking out the cooling system. The reactors began to explode and melt down. The disaster exposed a familiar legacy of poor design and corner-cutting. Yet, as far as we know, no one has yet received a lethal dose of radiation.
<snip>
..If you care to notice, quantitative numbers pretty consistent with what I and (and others too) have posted here.. eg:
..It shows that the average total dose from the Three Mile Island disaster for someone living within 10 miles of the plant was one 625th of the maximum yearly amount permitted for US radiation workers. This, in turn, is half of the lowest one-year dose clearly linked to an increased cancer risk, which, in its turn, is one 80th of an invariably fatal exposure. I'm not proposing complacency here. I am proposing perspective.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by SureshP »

The meltdown that wasn't

How a handful of operators at a crippled reactor averted a greater catastrophe at the Fukushima plant.

Geoff Brumfiel


The magnitude-9.0 earthquake rocked Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station at 2:46 p.m. on 11 March, but the real emergency began an hour later. A wall of water swept across the site, washing away power lines and the fuel tanks for the emergency backup generators designed to take over if grid power failed. Inside the control room of the unit 1 reactor, the lights went out and the 1970s-vintage analogue gauges drifted to zero.

It will probably be years before anyone knows exactly what happened inside the three reactors at Fukushima Daiichi that seem to have partially melted down in the wake of the tsunami. But from press reports, public statements and interviews with experts, it is possible to work out the most likely scenario. And already it is clear that decisions made in the initial 24 hours by the handful of operators in the control room probably averted a much greater nuclear catastrophe than the one that now faces Japan.

In the moments after the power was lost, the operators "would have literally been blind", says Margaret Harding, a nuclear engineer in Wilmington, North Carolina. Harding worked for two decades with General Electric, which designed Fukushima's boiling-water reactors, and she witnessed a similar outage in 1984 during a safety test at a boiling-water reactor in Switzerland. "Basically the emergency lights came on and all the panels went black," Harding says.

During the Swiss test, the power returned in 5 minutes. At Fukushima, batteries ran a handful of emergency lights in the control room and a few instruments tracking the reactor's vital signs, such as the pressure inside the core.

The core was next door. Inside a large, cube-shaped building, enclosed in a heavy concrete containment vessel, sat a thick, steel capsule filled with around 50 tonnes of uranium. Until an hour previously, that fuel had been pumping out 460 megawatts of power, but the reactor had automatically shut down immediately after the earthquake. Boron–carbon control rods driven between the long columns of fuel had soaked up neutrons and halted the nuclear reactions.

Model response

That didn't mean the reactor was cold. Radioactive by-products of the fission reactions still generated heat — some 7 megawatts of it, preliminary computer models by the National Nuclear Laboratory in Sellafield, UK, suggest. The fuel still needed to be actively cooled.

Without power, operators could use steam from the reactor's pressure vessel, plus minimal amounts of battery power, to drive a pump that would keep the cooling water circulating. What they probably didn't know was that the cooling system had sprung a leak. The leak caused water levels inside the core to drop, allowing the fuel to heat up, which generated more steam and raised the pressure inside the steel vessel. The emergency cooling system was unable to cope, according to a press release from the Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO), the plant's operator. At 7:03 p.m. a state of nuclear emergency was declared. Less than 2 hours later, evacuations began within a 2-kilometre radius of the plant.

By 4:00 a.m. the pressure inside the thick steel vessel of unit 1 had reached 840 kilopascals (kPa), more than twice the operating limit, according to the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, the Japanese nuclear regulator. Radiation levels at the front gate of the site had begun to rise above background, although they were still far from dangerous. At 5:44 a.m. the evacuation cordon was expanded to 10 kilometres.

At some point, the falling water levels must have left the fuel exposed. In a reactor such as unit 1, the uranium pellets are enclosed in long, skinny pipes made of zirconium alloy, chosen because it does not inhibit the neutrons needed to drive the fission reactions. As temperatures rose above 1,000 °C, the steam in the pressure vessel began to oxidize the zirconium, probably releasing hydrogen gas. Meanwhile, fuel pellets, liberated from their shell, began to fall to the bottom of the reactor. The meltdown had begun.

This was the crucial moment. If the operators at unit 1 could not stem the meltdown, the fuel would gather at the bottom of the vessel. The uranium pellets, now in close proximity, could begin exchanging neutrons and resume their heat-producing nuclear reactions. Slowly, the pile could build towards a 'critical mass' that would restart the nuclear process normally used to generate electricity.

Turning point

Nobody can be sure about this sequence of events because there has never been a full meltdown in a boiling-water reactor. Harding says that she thinks it's unlikely that the nuclear processes would have reignited. Even if they did, the worst case, in her opinion, is that the fuel would have burned through the steel pressure vessel and splattered onto the 'base mat', a thick concrete slab that would have spread out the fuel, extinguishing any fission reactions.

But even that might have been catastrophic. The volatile hydrogen gas generated by the zirconium was safe inside the steel pressure vessel, but it was liable to explode if exposed to air in the outer containment vessel. If the blast were big enough, it might have breached the outer vessel's thick, concrete walls.

This scenario is highly unlikely, but had it happened, the workers struggling to save the plant would almost certainly have received a lethal dose of radiation, says Malcolm Sperrin, a medical physicist at the Royal Berkshire Hospital in Reading, UK. Citizens near the plant could have been at higher risk for cancer later in life, he says. And the contamination would have made emergency operations much more difficult at the other reactors, which were also in trouble. The situation could easily have spiralled out of control.

Just metres away was a vast reservoir of sea water. It could stop the reactor's meltdown, but operators had no way to pump it into the core. Emergency generators could not be hooked into the system, for reasons that are still unclear.

At some point, somebody on the site realized that fire engines were essentially giant portable pumps with their own power supplies. "The fire trucks were brilliant," Harding says, "I'm not sure I would have thought of that." Engines were rushed to the plant and hooked into the lifeless emergency cooling system. Yet there was still a problem: the pressure in the core was too high for the engines' pumps to force in the sea water.

Around 2:30 on Saturday afternoon, operators began to vent pressure from the containment vessel. An hour later something sparked the gas that had built up inside the outer building during venting. The entire top of unit 1 was blown away, and four workers were injured, although the sturdy concrete containment vessel below seems to have survived the blast.

Chain reaction

The explosion, broadcast around the world, was the first of a series of setbacks at the reactor complex. In the ensuing days, reactors 3 and 2 followed a similar path to unit 1 (see 'An unfolding crisis'); each was rocked by a massive hydrogen explosion. In units 3 and 4, the pools for storing used fuel lost their cooling water and it is believed that the rods began to melt, emitting more explosive hydrogen along with powerful radiation.

At the time of writing, radioactive material from Fukushima Daiichi continues to blow across Japan at levels high enough to cause concern for Sperrin — although he says that they are not immediately dangerous. In the coming weeks and months, the government, TEPCO and safety authorities are likely to face heavy criticism. People will ask what went wrong.

Still, at unit 1 the immediate crisis has passed. With the pressure down, fire engines began to flood the reactor with sea water at 8:20 p.m. on 12 March, allowing the fuel to slowly cool to a safe temperature. The response at unit 1 also provided a model for stabilizing the other two reactors. And day by day, the radioactive decay in the reactor cores is ebbing. It could be days or weeks before the reactors are truly safe, but for now things remain stable.

As for the operators at unit 1, says Harding, "I think they really did respond pretty well."
Nature
Last edited by ramana on 22 Mar 2011 23:04, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added bold. ramana
Amber G.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

chaanakya wrote:..... Gyanis living in unkilland can check and tell us mango abdul if this is false...
.
FWIW Chaanakyaji: Some Gyanis in unkilland learn from textbooks written authors like "Roy and NIgam" ..(That was the text book used when I was a grad student, and I still see it being used places like "MIT", which you mention later in that article....)

Point being..no one has to depend on others to find the truth..Any good book or resource will do as long as one is not lazy enough to do simple math and basic checking..

For example:
...radiation related deaths and effects on unborn child in Sweden . Results were reportedly published in American Journal of Industrial Medicine. Apparently busts the myth of no deaths attributed to radiation,
With Internet, one does not even need to be near a good University to check out the actual report ( vs taking their word that 'it was reportedly published').. to see if it indeed bursts the myth..of course one also has to pay little attention ..like the report was talking about radiation effects in general, or radiation which came from Chernobyl..

Obviously after TMI (30 years ago) and Chernobyl (20 years ago) there are plenty of scientific studies.. and published results..just read them and make up your own mind.
But I would surely get worried if a plant come up in my neighbourhood.
And you should be! This is why you ought to get the facts best you can.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Lalmohan »

gyanis living in unkil land are normally quoting newspaper articles that are 24-36 hrs sometimes 48 hrs behind what is being reported on TV in continents further east...

always check the iaea website in the morning ;)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Lalmohan wrote:gyanis living in unkil land are normally quoting newspaper articles that are 24-36 hrs sometimes 48 hrs behind what is being reported on TV in continents further east...

always check the iaea website in the morning ;)
IAEA website is nice..

But it is still is not preventing them (I mean US gyanis) to make wrong, silly, and irresponsible analysis..last night I saw a US senator talking about how difficult it is to "grab the gandma and get the hell out for 20 million people" from that dangerous radiation.

Backdrop behind was first footage from tsunami (not the NPP - though the segment was "know your nukes" or something like that).. which changed to map of NY (centered at Indian Point and a circle of 80K radius showing New York in that 80KM radius (hence 20,000,000 people)... with bulletin about "very high radiation reading and what not".

Few Japanese physicists watched that on American TV.. while we were speechless...

The obvious point(s):
- The 20Km evacuation zone around Fukushma is not the same thing as 80 Km red circle around Indian Point.. Why put that graphic (and spend all the time discussing that) instead of actual news report and radiation readings at Fukushma :evil:
Last edited by Amber G. on 23 Mar 2011 02:13, edited 2 times in total.
GuruPrabhu
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Amber G. wrote:..last night I saw a US senator talking ...
old one liner regarding politicians and science: "Revenge of the C students" 8)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

AmberG, There is a need to restore confidence in US about how well off we are. And show others are in deep doo doo. Its called disaster leadership. show we are still leader and call the shots. Akin to the massive air strikes while pretending to be following the lead of France and UK.

I heard Bob Schieffer on 60 Minutes waxing eloquent about hoe US experts were more open and candid about the Fukushima disaster implying Japanese are not. It avoids he question that the Japanese were fighting for their lives on 4 reactors long with the spent fuel pool draining at to of them and not just one as in TMI or Chernobyl. And the US experts were throwing facts like the kitchen sink and grandma's shorts!

----------------

GP. I had to delete two reports on your posts. If you want to contribute to the thread stop one liners and smileys.

I don't want to issue warnings and lose you.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Amber ji, I think that Journal is subscription based and not available on internet. May be will check through springer. Partly it was quoted by Mr Ritt which related to Radiation related deaths caused by Chernobyl radiation reaching that little sweden village and also talked about effects on unborn child. Scary indeed.

DO you want to say that those studies are either wrong or quoted out of context by the journo?

In case you lay your hand on those studies or if you have a link, do put it here or give me a pointer. Unfortunately I don't have much spare time to visit university and look up the journal, though I will try.

WHO report generally takes the position as you are advocating. Since it is a scanned one just can't reproduce without lengthy typing effort.

It talks about acceptable risk in radiation and also underlines the importance of health education programme for general public who may not be privy to what Ray and Nigam had to say.

To me it appears that studies are available aplenty after 30/20 years of TML and Cher supporting both contentions. One might support or blame pro or anti nuk lobby and that leaves ordinary people confused. One can't really rely on so called expert studies either way since there are conflicting conclusions . Best course ,then appears to be preventive or precaution, that is no nuk in my backyard.

MIT report also ack that waste disposal is one of the biggest worry. USA also doesn't want RW in their backyard and scouting for sites in Africa . Despite construction being started on UTAH dispoal facility it is no where near complete. At least you can try to sink carbon , but sinking RW is near impossible, only containment is possible. And god forbid if it fails.

Though it would be unfortunate if option is foreclosed without consideration. No one wants that.


That is why on Maharashtra CM announced that no Nuke plant if there are safety concerns. Villagers, unless assured, would protest and it would be difficult to ignore. As you may be knowing that decision is not only technical, economic or energy requirement based , but also political and social and environmental. So communication is the key. I agree with lalmohan that there are issues but option should be open.Consent of villagers should be informed one and not forced one.

This issue is very topical and of relevance to us. Therefore there would be a full review , I can guarantee as much.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Meanwhile recent update .. though less widely reported here in US than radiation levels in the sea..
Three large earthquakes strike off Japan
THREE earthquakes greater than 6.4-magnitude rocked Japan last night ....
All three large earthquakes hit off Japan's eastern cost between 7:18am and 9:44am GMT
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Some numbers --
Radiation trends in Japan
Food samples show raised radioactivity
And iaea site where one can find recent updates..
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsu ... ate01.html
And TEPCO site (official plant site)
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-co ... 218-e.html

Sorry if already posted.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

SureshP - Thanks for the post . The article gives some data which has not been seen in news reports before. (many assumptions I made, about quantity and type(s), and quick back of the envelop type calculations were right in the ball park.)

Ramana - FWIW I too don't want to lose GP either. I find many of his posts to be quite informative.

Chaanakya - If you can make your questions precise and put them in Physics thread, I will try to respond. By precise, I mean, which article (link), what statement(s). etc.

The science of predicting/understanding health effects of low level (less than 100 mSv) of radiation is more statistical.. any good book will help. Check out google for" Linear No Threshold Hypothesis" the main method many use. Just for perspective 'ANS concurs with the following Position Statement on “Radiation Risk
in Perspective” issued by the Health Physics Society.
(see eg: http://www.ans.org/pi/ps/docs/ps41.pdf)
“In accordance with the current knowledge of radiation health risks, the Health Physics Society recommends against quantitative estimation of health risks below an individual dose of 5 rem1 in one year or a lifetime dose of 10 rem in addition to background radiation. Risk estimation in this dose range should be strictly qualitative accentuating a range of hypothetical health outcomes with an emphasis on the likely possibility of zero adverse health effects. The current philosophy of radiation protection is based on the assumption that any radiation dose, no matter how small, may result in human effects, such as cancer and hereditary genetic damage. There is substantial and convincing scientific evidence for health risks at high dose. Below 10 rem (which includes occupational and environmental exposures) risks of health effects are either too small to be observed or are non-existent.”
1 The rem is the unit of effective dose. In international units, 1 rem = 0.01 sievert (SV)


(This is not to diss LNTH method but to get the right perspective when you read these reports based on LNTH)

DO you want to say that those studies are either wrong or quoted out of context by the journo?
Sorry, unless I see these studies, I can't say they are wrong..(Don't get me wrong but I really don't want to see all those reports..honestly I lose interest in reports where someone is claiming 1,000,000 deaths just like when I see reports of 7,000,000,000 army troops in Kashmir /smile/)
One can't really rely on so called expert studies either way since there are conflicting conclusions


One shouldn't quickly dismiss these reports either. One TMI study, for example was ordered by US President, and had experts from all the sides.. (US has fairly big anti-nuclear lobby too), This, and every other study, has not found a single case of radiation cancer in 20+ years which they can directly link to TMI. There are no 'conflicting conclusions' , at least, in the case of the TMI study.
This issue is very topical and of relevance to us. Therefore there would be a full review , I can guarantee as much.
Agree 400%.

Folks: One issue, IMO, is our instruments are very sensitive and one can really measure very low level of radiation. Again, just to put in layman's term, if one drops a bucket full of I-131 in ocean at Juhu beach, I can find some of those atoms in a cup I pick up out from sea in California. Radioactivity detection equipments are very sensitive. One can EASILY detect a 1986 wine because of high radioactivity absorbed by grapes in Italy (or Califonia) from Cs which spewed out in Chernobyl.

(Wine made in 1950-60 era (lot of atmospheric testing) and 1986 stand out. As I have said in a previous post, actually all wines sold in US by law have to be radioactive to be sold .)

All people (unless they have been dead for years) emit easily measurable dose (about 0.4 mSv/yr) too. (mostly due to K40)

We have all heard or did calculation in our high-school science class - every breath you take has many (hundreds!) air molecules which came out from the dying breath of Aurangjeb. (or Tipu Sultan for that matter) :shock:

Think about that for a moment /smile/
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by arnab »

I think the statement on nuclear energy being ‘nudge nudge wink wink you don’t need to know’ is complete nonsense. On the forum enough posts and references have been put up for members to learn and form an informed opinion if they were interested. Amber G’s seminal contribution to this thread must be acknowledged.

The issue here is this – some folks want to be ‘reassured’ along the lines of the CM of Maharashtra or the villagers. Then it is no longer a question of science lessons. It is a question of managing the politics of the issue. It really does involve holding their hands and telling them – ‘it is all right’. They do not pretend to understand nuclear science. For them the word ‘nuclear’ conjures images of a mushroom cloud. If that is indeed the case here, why pretend you understand the science and comeback with breathtaking statements like – ‘PHWR is safer than LWR’ and ‘3 stage cycle will prevent such accidents’?

If you don’t understand the science and neither do you want to learn yet have an opinion and feel that is a good enough replacement for facts, then I’m afraid you are in the wrong place. Opinions are fine in a political discourse. In which case let us have a thread on the ‘politics of nuclear energy’. It will give us fine insights into why good policies sometimes fail and sometimes bad ideas get a lot of traction.

However in this forum, the words of Einstein should resonate more– ‘Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler’. For that bit you are expected to put in a little amount of work yourself. It is really a choice between ‘Daily Star’ reports and IAEA reports.

As an aside, if you google ‘risk of vaccinating children’, you will learn that no vaccination is perfectly safe. Children have and will die because of vaccination (actually more have died because of vaccines than because of nuke radiation). Many mullahs advocate not giving vaccination to children because they view it as a conspiracy. Simple query – have you had your child(ren) vaccinated? (or say did your parents get you vaccinated, if you do not have a child)

So in the realm of nuke energy- yes please do review processes. Do make improvements as you go. Learn from previous mistakes – but please, please do not insult our intelligence by making statements like it is a ‘conspiracy by MMS to bring in risky LWRs from the US to replace the safe indigenous PHWR’
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by amit »

arnab wrote:I think the statement on nuclear energy being ‘nudge nudge wink wink you don’t need to know’ is complete nonsense. On the forum enough posts and references have been put up for members to learn and form an informed opinion if they were interested. Amber G’s seminal contribution to this thread must be acknowledged.

The issue here is this – some folks want to be ‘reassured’ along the lines of the CM of Maharashtra or the villagers. Then it is no longer a question of science lessons. It is a question of managing the politics of the issue. It really does involve holding their hands and telling them – ‘it is all right’. They do not pretend to understand nuclear science. For them the word ‘nuclear’ conjures images of a mushroom cloud. If that is indeed the case here, why pretend you understand the science and comeback with breathtaking statements like – ‘PHWR is safer than LWR’ and ‘3 stage cycle will prevent such accidents’?

If you don’t understand the science and neither do you want to learn yet have an opinion and feel that is a good enough replacement for facts, then I’m afraid you are in the wrong place. Opinions are fine in a political discourse. In which case let us have a thread on the ‘politics of nuclear energy’. It will give us fine insights into why good policies sometimes fail and sometimes bad ideas get a lot of traction.

However in this forum, the words of Einstein should resonate more– ‘Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler’. For that bit you are expected to put in a little amount of work yourself. It is really a choice between ‘Daily Star’ reports and IAEA reports.

As an aside, if you google ‘risk of vaccinating children’, you will learn that no vaccination is perfectly safe. Children have and will die because of vaccination (actually more have died because of vaccines than because of nuke radiation). Many mullahs advocate not giving vaccination to children because they view it as a conspiracy. Simple query – have you had your child(ren) vaccinated? (or say did your parents get you vaccinated, if you do not have a child)

So in the realm of nuke energy- yes please do review processes. Do make improvements as you go. Learn from previous mistakes – but please, please do not insult our intelligence by making statements like it is a ‘conspiracy by MMS to bring in risky LWRs from the US to replace the safe indigenous PHWR’
Good post Arnab, you put things in very good perspective.

However, if appeals to reason and logic worked then we wouldn't have this kind of "doomsday has already started" kind of posts especially after all reports indicate that things are stabilizing at Fukushima Daiichi. I guess you just can't get rid of ambient noise.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by somnath »

Found this interesting article on "mini nukes" on my Bloomberg - posting it in full as not many members here would have BBG access..

A question arises - we seem to have obtained a degree of "mastery" over the 220 MW reactors - how does that design compare with the new mini-reactors coming on stream, from cost and safety perspectives?
Meltdown-or-Not Future for Nuclear Seen in Diminutive Reactors
2011-03-22 21:00:23.0 GMT


By John Lippert and Jeremy van Loon
March 23 (Bloomberg) -- Nuclear engineer Jose Reyes jolted awake at 4:45 a.m. on March 11 when his son called to warn him that a massive earthquake had unleashed a tsunami that rocked Japan. Giant waves were heading for the Oregon coast, about an hour from Reyes’s Corvallis office.
As news poured in during the next 12 hours that the cooling system at a Tokyo Electric Power Co. nuclear plant had been damaged, Reyes’s anxiety grew. People were using the words “potential meltdown” with alarming frequency.
Reyes, 55, who founded NuScale Power Inc. in 2007 to design a slimmed-down, 45-megawatt reactor, contemplated the blot on the already beleaguered nuclear industry -- and the prospects for his nascent company, Bloomberg Markets magazine reports in its May issue.
“We’ve been hard-pressed but not crushed,” he says.
“Stopping the progress being made would be a mistake.”
Convinced that today’s large nuclear projects are burdened by too much financial risk, NuScale is designing and testing a 60-foot-high (18-meter-high) reactor encased in a thermos-like metal sheath. It would cost about $200 million and could be used to light and heat villages, desalinate ocean water or be strung together side by side to form a midsize power plant -- virtually free of carbon emissions. With some investors on board, Reyes plans to ask the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission for a license in late 2012.
“More and more people see small nuclear as a green technology,” he says.

Nuclear Revival

Decades after accidents at Three Mile Island and Chernobyl poisoned attitudes and the environment, Reyes and a cadre of scientists, engineers and investors have been betting that small-scale reactors can spark a nuclear revival.
Hyperion Power Generation Inc. in Santa Fe, New Mexico, is working on 25-megawatt, refrigerator-sized designs for $50 million each that could power remote locations or be used in hospitals and factories. By 2020, Russian nuclear company Rosatom Corp. expects to sell seven barges equipped with twin 35-megawatt reactors for the Arctic and Africa. In Argentina, the government of President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner is clearing ground in the central grasslands for a 25-megawatt prototype planned for 2014.
Microsoft Corp. co-founder Bill Gates is backing a more powerful, 500-megawatt reactor designed by TerraPower LLC in Bellevue, Washington. Its traveling-wave technology uses
uranium-238 to fuel a reaction in what functions like a 13-foot- tall candle.

‘Valuable Offering’

“If it works, it’s hard to think of a more valuable offering in the energy space,” says Izhar Armony, a partner at Waltham, Massachusetts-based Charles River Ventures, which invested in TerraPower.
As improbable as it may sound amid the devastation in northeastern Japan, the nuclear accident may increase the appeal of innovative, small-scale reactors, says Chris Gadomski, a Bloomberg New Energy Finance analyst in San Francisco.
“We’re seeing a knee-jerk reaction saying, ‘get rid of nuclear,’ but that’s not going to happen in the long run,” he says. “There is no other good solution if you want to decarbonize the energy sector. As far as small reactors go, these events in Japan will strengthen their hand as opposed to weakening it.”
U.S. Energy Secretary Steven Chu, who won the Nobel Prize in physics in 1997 for using lasers to study atomic particles, has requested $97 million for small-reactor development in fiscal 2012, which begins on Oct. 1. Chu said on March 16 that President Barack Obama’s administration will press ahead with efforts to expand loan guarantees for new reactors.

Nuclear and Coal

Maurice Gunderson, a partner at San Francisco-based CMEA Ventures, invested in NuScale four years ago. He predicts he’ll raise an additional $200 million by June 1, even after the Japanese disaster.
Anti-nuclear sentiments inflamed by leaking radiation at the Fukushima plant may subside over time, he says. More crucial, he says, is that the world has few good options to replace the one-seventh of its electricity that’s produced by nuclear reactors.
“Powering a society as large as the one we have means using nuclear power and coal,” he says. “Nothing else we have at the present time is big enough to do it in a sustained way.
And coal means lopping off mountaintops, air pollution and mining deaths. It’s tremendously hazardous.”
Burning petroleum spews carbon into the air, and rising prices ripple through the global economy. From Dec. 17, when riots erupted in Tunisia and spread to oil-rich nations in the region, Brent crude for May settlement surged 26 percent to $115.70 a barrel in London on March 22.

No Pumps, External Power

Reyes says his preliminary data show that his reactor would have survived the Japanese earthquake -- and held up under one that shook the ground even harder. NuScale’s reactor core is housed inside a vessel that’s 10 times stronger than the one in Japan, he says, and that’s placed in a pool of water and buried underground.
More important, his design doesn’t require pumps or external power to cool the reactor. Fukushima Dai-Ichi reactors, of which Toshiba Corp. was among the builders, overheated when power sources failed and pumps couldn’t deliver cooling water.
NuScale’s design relies on so-called passive safety systems that take advantage of natural circulation created by the heating and cooling of water inside and outside the reactor.
NuScale’s design, which uses about 5 percent of the amount of fuel of the big models, produces less heat after it’s idled.
“Keep your core covered with liquid -- that’s the rule of thumb,” Reyes says.

Last Bit of Hope

The accident in Japan is hurting Toshiba. The company’s shares have dropped 17 percent in the days after the earthquake and tsunami to 406 yen on March 22. On March 16, China suspended approval of new nuclear projects and said it would conduct safety inspections of all plants under construction. China has chosen the AP1000 from Toshiba’s Westinghouse unit as its flagship, with the first one set to go online in 2013.
Mycle Schneider, a Paris-based nuclear industry analyst who has advised the governments of Belgium, France and Germany on atomic energy, says small reactors would have been vulnerable to the twin forces of Japan’s earthquake and tsunami.
“The industry has lost the last remaining bit of hope,”
he says. Nuclear proponents can’t recover by painting rosy views of a carbon-free atomic future, Schneider says. “This was a big one for the nuclear industry,” he says.

Consuming Nuclear Waste

New reactor models will arrive too slowly to make a dent in global warming, while used fuel stored in pools of water is a prime terrorist target and safety risk, he says. Permanent waste disposal solutions mean digging into granite or salt and leaving radioactive material for thousands of years.
In the face of such dire predictions, nuclear power has been growing as countries strive to slake mankind’s appetite for energy.
The world has 441 reactors, including those at Japan’s Fukushima Dai-Ichi facility, with a total of 375,000 megawatts of capacity, the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency said in September 2010. That provided about 14 percent of the world’s power last year. Another 60 reactors are in the works, and output may reach 445,000 megawatts by 2020, the IAEA says.
By 2025, the world could add 36 small reactors, each with 400 megawatts of capacity or less, according to the IAEA. Of the
38 reactors of this size operating today, 34 were built before 1990 and use traditional technology rather than new designs.

TerraPower

TerraPower, the company Gates is backing, aims to build a sodium-cooled reactor by 2020. It would consume spent fuel from conventional plants and generate less waste of its own, addressing a problem that has dogged the industry. TerraPower has spent tens of millions of dollars on research and will need several billion dollars more for a prototype, CEO John Gilleland says.
Toshiba is planning a 10-megawatt model that, if approved, may supply the Alaskan village of Galena. Older, larger Toshiba reactors overheated amid the earthquake when backup systems failed to keep them cool. Toshiba declined to comment on the impact of the accident on its small-scale program.
Babcock & Wilcox Co., Reyes’s main competitor in small models, has lined up a customer -- a crucial step before seeking NRC approval for its technology. The Tennessee Valley Authority, a federally owned utility in seven states, may build six small Babcock reactors to provide power for 4,800 Department of Energy researchers in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, says Andrea Sterdis, TVA senior manager for nuclear expansion. Terry Johnson, a TVA spokesman, says it’s too soon to say how the Japanese accident may affect small-scale reactor development.

Babcock and TMI

Babcock, which supplied boilers for New York’s first subways, also built the reactor for the stricken Three Mile Island nuclear facility near Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. In 1979, a commission appointed by U.S. President Jimmy Carter criticized the company for, among other things, failing to notify customers that the kind of coolant valve that caused the Pennsylvania accident had already failed nine other times. Babcock declared bankruptcy in 2000 as a result of legal claims for exposure to asbestos in its power-generating equipment. The company emerged from bankruptcy six years later.
Babcock’s new, 125-megawatt reactors would cost about $500 million each and become available as early as 2018, says Christofer Mowry, CEO of Babcock’s B&W Modular Nuclear Energy unit. He declined, through a spokesman, to comment on the Fukushima accident.

‘Icing on the Cake’

Ben Landy, an analyst at Baltimore-based T. Rowe Price Group Inc., says that Babcock already builds reactors for the U.S. Navy and that the company’s boilers and pollution-control equipment for coal plants are competitive strengths.
“If small reactors become a big market, that’s icing on the cake,” Landy says.
With 14.4 million shares, T. Rowe Price is Babcock’s biggest investor. Babcock shares rose 52 percent from Aug. 2, when the company was spun off from McDermott International Inc., to $35.09 on March 10, the day before the earthquake. The stock has dropped 9.8 percent since then, to $31.65 on March 22.
Landy says negative publicity over Fukushima may impede large U.S. reactors already fighting to raise money. Buyers may view Babcock’s small models as safer, partly because they’re buried in the ground, he says.

NRC Gears Up

The NRC has been marshalling resources for when applications for mini-reactors start rolling in, NRC Chairman Gregory Jaczko says. The commission has 50 people who will determine whether the models need the same personnel, security and insurance as big designs and whether operators should pay similar licensing, disposal and decommissioning fees.
The NRC is familiar with NuScale’s basic design and is likely to certify it, BNEF’s Gadomski predicts. Hyperion’s 8- foot-tall models present a tougher security challenge because they’re intended for remote locations. Common thieves probably couldn’t steal them, but a rogue government could -- and then may convert the uranium into weapons, he says.
Even as Republicans in Congress attacked Obama’s energy plan, they left most nuclear programs intact. After Japan’s woes, Democrats may be less likely to support the administration’s nuclear agenda.
The day after the earthquake, Representative Ed Markey, a Democrat from Massachusetts, called for a moratorium on new plants in seismically active areas until additional safety reviews could be completed. Senator Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut, an independent who heads the Senate’s Homeland Security Committee, sought a pause until the Japan accident could be analyzed.

Evaluating Risk

The U.S. nuclear industry is already growing more slowly than those of China, Russia and India. Nuclear generating capacity may jump by 77 percent in the Far East, including China, by 2020 compared with 12 percent in North America, the IAEA says. Capacity in Western Europe may drop 24 percent in that period, the agency says.
Most U.S. utilities still see too much risk. Constellation Energy Group Inc. abandoned a five-year quest in October for a third big reactor in Lusby, Maryland. Chicago-based Exelon Corp., the largest U.S. nuclear operator, with 17 reactors, is reassessing a $3.65 billion plan to raise output at its nuclear plants because the company expects safety reviews by the NRC, CEO John Rowe said on March 16. Marilyn Kray, vice president of nuclear development, says if utilities need power, and can be convinced that small reactors are cost-effective, they may build them at existing nuclear or coal sites, which already have transmission lines and permits.

1,000 Alarms

That thinking meshes with Reyes’s plans for NuScale.
Seated in his office near Oregon State University, where two paintings by Austrian artist Friedensreich Hundertwasser lean, unhung, against the wall, Reyes recalls how living through the worst U.S. nuclear accident taught him about scale.
He was working as a safety analyst at the NRC during the partial core meltdown at General Public Utilities Corp.’s Three Mile Island plant in 1979. He studied how operators of the Babcock reactor were baffled by 1,000 alarms going off simultaneously. Today, a plant’s key diagnostics fit on one computer screen, he says.
“Simplicity matters,” Reyes says.
Reyes began forming his idea for NuScale after he got a DOE grant to develop reactors for emerging markets. He built a mock power plant that resembles a 12-foot-tall chimney to troubleshoot his designs in a four-story garage at Oregon State, where he’s on leave from his job as a tenured professor. He decided to commercialize the technology and filed 18 patent applications.

‘Right Way to Go’

Reyes, who holds a Ph.D. in nuclear engineering from the University of Maryland, used similar equipment to convince the NRC in 2005 that a $6 billion, 1,117-megawatt behemoth designed by Toshiba’s Westinghouse unit was safe partly because, like NuScale’s, it relies on passive safety systems. China later adopted Toshiba’s design for its future reactors.
“After reviewing all these events in Japan, people may decide that these passive plants might be the right way to go,”
Reyes says.
Reyes had been struggling to raise money even before the Japanese crisis. His woes worsened in January, when the U.S.
Securities and Exchange Commission filed a lawsuit against his biggest backer, Francisco Illarramendi, claiming that Illarramendi transferred money among investment accounts without telling clients.

Worth Billions

Illarramendi, principal owner of Michael Kenwood Group LLC in Stamford, Connecticut, pleaded guilty in March to what the SEC described as a multiyear Ponzi scheme. He could face up to 70 years in prison, prosecutors say. John Gleason, his attorney, declined to comment.
In January, when the lawsuit temporarily froze NuScale’s bank account, CEO Paul Lorenzini fired 30 of 100 employees and hundreds of contractors and cut pay by as much as 50 percent.
One potential investor, Ray Rothrock, who works in Palo Alto, California, for venture firm Venrock Associates, says he passed on NuScale because no one can predict whether or when the NRC will approve its design. The Fukushima accident magnifies the uncertainty, he says.
“This will slow things down, cost money and require the regulatory people to opine on it,” Rothrock says. If NuScale passes its regulatory hurdles, he says, the company will be worth billions of dollars.

Nuclear Batteries

About 1,450 miles (2,333 kilometers) from Reyes’s Oregon lab, in Santa Fe, Hyperion CEO John Deal has been working on what he calls “nuclear batteries” that hospitals, remote communities and oil companies can use for power and heat. Each reactor is designed to run for eight years before Deal retrieves it and drops off a new one.
Deal, 47, worked at Los Alamos National Laboratory, where he says he got the idea to commercialize small nuclear technology, as “resident entrepreneur.” By 2020, Hyperion aims to have a prototype that can operate at 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit
(538 degrees Celsius), 400 degrees hotter than water-cooled designs. Hyperion’s lead-bismuth model and sodium-cooled versions from other companies could generate electricity as well as heat for refining bitumen into crude oil or for warming the maternity ward of a hospital.
Deal says his “batteries” offer advantages over the reactors in Japan. They’d spread out power generation rather than concentrating it; they’d be a fraction the size of traditional models; and they’d be buried inside reinforced bunkers designed to withstand earthquakes. Cooling would work by gravity, without pumps.

‘Get Out of Berkeley’

“If there is a worst, worst, worst case, all contamination, if any, should be very local and remain in the ground inside the vault,” Deal says.
People are likely to accept such security, especially if lack of power means they don’t have basic necessities such as clean water, Deal says.
“You have to get out of Berkeley to realize how badly people need electricity,” he says, referring to the California college town that has long been a protest hotbed. If the NRC moves too slowly to license his reactor, Deal says, he’ll build it overseas.
The planet has 40 years to slice carbon emissions in half or suffer a deadly rise in temperatures, according to the International Energy Agency, which advises the governments of 28 countries, including the U.S.
Nuclear proponents say meeting this challenge requires a cascade of inventions, including reactors that are smaller, safer and cheaper -- even after the crisis in Japan.
“There is still a need for clean energy and for getting away from fossil fuels,” Reyes says. “That part of the equation doesn’t change.”
ramana
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

Somnath, Indian 220MW are PHWRs and wont be advocated as they use heavy water and are not proliferation resistant.

BTW the <50MW units are based on Star Wars technology. There was need for power sources in deep space applications.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by somnath »

^^^?? The Canadians the peddling the same CANDU tech world over aren they? How is PHWR any more or less proliferation resitant than LWR?

the point is why cant the 220MW Indian CANDU design not be a competitor in the mini-nuke space - after all according to some it is the cleanest, most earthquake-resistant and cheapest design available!!:)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by vina »

the point is why cant the 220MW Indian CANDU design not be a competitor in the mini-nuke space - after all according to some it is the cleanest, most earthquake-resistant and cheapest design available!!:)
Hmm. Your background is social "science" and not real science isnt it. Ok, CANDU produces humongous amounts of Pu , which is a big proliferation problem. Hundreds of Poo producing reactors in remote locations is a perfect thing for terrorists and rogue nations to get their hands on. In building a Noo Clear Bum, what is most difficult is getting the materials. With that mini reactors everyewhere, you make getting the Pu (the hardest to get material) a walk in the park! Even if not able to make a bum, Poo is nasty stuff, one of the most poisonous things known to man. Best thing to do is not to produce it all in the first place.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

somnath wrote:^^^?? The Canadians the peddling the same CANDU tech world over aren they? How is PHWR any more or less proliferation resitant than LWR?

the point is why cant the 220MW Indian CANDU design not be a competitor in the mini-nuke space - after all according to some it is the cleanest, most earthquake-resistant and cheapest design available!!:)
Somnath< even the Canadian plants are proliferation prone. Basically the PHWR/CANDU(they are both same) generate Poo as bye product. The particular isotope depends on power generation. Low power is more weapon grade.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by GuruPrabhu »

vina wrote:Hmm. Your background is social "science" and not real science isnt it.
Saar, your background is questionable as well, isn't it? I had promised to stay away from this thread but let' see how it stacks up.
Ok, CANDU produces humongous amounts of Pu , which is a big proliferation problem.
unsubstantiated claim. every reactor produces Poo. What is "humongous"?
Even if not able to make a bum, Poo is nasty stuff, one of the most poisonous things known to man. Best thing to do is not to produce it all in the first place.
peacenik, ok? but, what will satisfy the jingoes on BRF?
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by somnath »

vina wrote:Hmm. Your background is social "science" and not real science isnt it. Ok, CANDU produces humongous amounts of Pu , which is a big proliferation problem. Hundreds of Poo producing reactors in remote locations is a perfect thing for terrorists and rogue nations to get their hands on. In building a Noo Clear Bum, what is most difficult is getting the materials. With that mini reactors everyewhere, you make getting the Pu (the hardest to get material) a walk in the park! Even if not able to make a bum, Poo is nasty stuff, one of the most poisonous things known to man. Best thing to do is not to produce it all in the first place.
Vina-ji, I will ignore the bits about my "background" (how is it relevant in any case?!), but clearly, regrdless of your background, you are WAY behind the times on proliferation...

To start with, do LWRs not produce Pu? If not, can you point which part of science tells us that?

The conventional wisdom of LWRs being somehow proliferation resistant went out of the window many years, in fact decades back...The entire premise was that if you set up LWRs without enrichment facilities then it would be easier for IAEA and assorted entities to figure out in case fuel (or waste) was being diverted for reprocessing..the favoured model in fact was "All in, All out" (remains so now)...Problem is, no one, crtainly not the "problem" states wants an "all in all out" solution...Infact there is almost never an "all out" solution....Plus, reprocessing facilities have become smaller, more efficient and easier to hide..Classic case? Iran...It has quite plausibly claimed that all its reprocessing was part of its LWR programme! The old proposal of the South koreans giving 2 LWRs to NoKo in return for a shutting down of the nuke programme at least partialy got nixed because of proliferation concerns (raised by NPAs, who else?) on the LWRs...

The CANDU design is a heavily marketed affair (by the Canadians) - dont see that as a show stopper for any Indian plans to market it as well!

Anyways, I guess the discussion is going OT...
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by krishnan »

Search for LWR and PU
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Okay this is BAD

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/radia ... er/766192/

Radiation detected in Tokyo water
That amount is more than twice the recommended limit of 100 becquerels per litre for infants, the most vulnerable segment of the population.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Amber G. wrote: Chaanakya - If you can make your questions precise and put them in Physics thread, I will try to respond. By precise, I mean, which article (link), what statement(s). etc.

The science of predicting/understanding health effects of low level (less than 100 mSv) of radiation is more statistical.. any good book will help. Check out google for" Linear No Threshold Hypothesis" the main method many use. Just for perspective 'ANS concurs with the following Position Statement on “Radiation Risk
in Perspective” issued by the Health Physics Society.
DO you want to say that those studies are either wrong or quoted out of context by the journo?
Sorry, unless I see these studies, I can't say they are wrong..(Don't get me wrong but I really don't want to see all those reports..honestly I lose interest in reports where someone is claiming 1,000,000 deaths just like when I see reports of 7,000,000,000 army troops in Kashmir /smile/)
One can't really rely on so called expert studies either way since there are conflicting conclusions


One shouldn't quickly dismiss these reports either.
This issue is very topical and of relevance to us. Therefore there would be a full review , I can guarantee as much.
Agree 400%.
Amber, links are there in previous posts. The journo , Mr Ritt has quoted from Scientific study. Unless I read that in whole can't much comment on that but he certainly doesn't claim 1,000,000 deaths etc. I am not dismissive of reports, frankly , I lose interest when the absolutist position is taken " I am right and others are wrong" type. Truth may lie somewhere in between. What is told as scientific facts are sometimes hypothesis forced upon gullible masses on someone's authority ,who may be the conflicted party.

I will take the liberty to requote few sentences produced by Mr Ritt.
According to a 2006 Swedish study published in the American Journal of Industrial Medicine, it appears Sweden experienced approximately a thousand excess cancer fatalities because of Chernobyl, the number expected to increase, the cases concentrated proportional to the levels of radioactive exposure. As might be imagined, there were other health effects as well, such as effects with an impact on unborn children.

A 2007 study performed by the National Bureau of Economic Research, a prestigious Cambridge Massachusetts-based think-tank, examined the cognitive effects of Chernobyl's radiation on Swedish children. It found evidence that "fetal exposure to ionizing radiation damages cognitive ability at radiation levels previously considered safe".
I am reading all your posts and, frankly, I find them informative, and somewhat feel better when I eat banana or spinach.

Due to cognitive dissonance one may tend to overlook the sentences
As you may be knowing that decision is not only technical, economic or energy requirement based , but also political and social and environmental. So communication is the key
Afterall the study concludes
It found evidence that "fetal exposure to ionizing radiation damages cognitive ability at radiation levels previously considered safe".
How can I blame the nuclear experts. One can always take shelter in this report if found wrong at a later date , esp nuk experts .

And That is why people tend to compare different things together, like if you accept vaccination you should also accept radiation risk because in both people die. The question of acceptable risk is relevant. Amber has pointed out two different but competing hypotheses. and he also agrees that
This is not to diss LNTH method
Right perspective is important.

People take radiation through x-ray or CT pr PET. or even vaccination or train /plane travel. Safety precautions are there and people know and accept the risk.Whereas when you draw 30 km radius circle, did you ask people to accept the risk beforehand. People matters as they are the affected party. Jaitapur is the same question. And technology is not politics neutral. One doesn't prevent scientists do the work in labs.

I am not sure if I said PHWR is safe or better vs. LWR. or if 3-stage cycle is safe. Putting words where it is not there is inappropriate at least in this context. That is entirely a different discussion. Safer alternatives ( if one points to this ) mean different things. In fact Japan has such coal tech which meet stringent environment standards and produce power at 40 % efficiency and 100% PLF. Only Unkil is somewhat nearer at 35% efficiency. We have 18-20%.No Ultra super critical tech as yet.But, then it is not the point to discuss here else people would complain of ambient noise as in ambient background radiation, which interfere with correct reading of radiation level, which incidentally reduces as a square of the distance from the source.

IAEA's entire existence is premised upon existence of Nuclear industry and manned by people who have stake in it continuance. While not dissing their reports I would tend to be circumspect. Has anyone wondered why there is no ICEA (International Coal Energy Agency) to manage and control those technology?

Tsunami and quake has opened the debate. But we have bigger lessons to learn from these disasters. How Japanese have managed the disaster for which they prepared very long and hard and how they are coping with post tsunami rehabilitation.It would also give lessons for tech improvements in nuk industry. In this nuk brouhaha that is being lost.
Last edited by chaanakya on 23 Mar 2011 12:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by VikramS »

Somnat:
http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid ... RwWo_XQ5xo

What do you pay the $2000pm for??

The temperature in the reactors is rising above normal operating temperatures.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/reacto ... es-celsius
There were short cuts taken during when the containment dome was being manufactured.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/fukush ... e-bomb-exp
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by somnath »

VikramS wrote:Somnat:
http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid ... RwWo_XQ5xo

What do you pay the $2000pm for??
:) Good find - dont use BBG internet at all! Why $2000, well, there's a lot more to BBG than news is all I can say :wink:
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Amit, Arnab et all - Thanks.. some times every one feels like an old saying..
(No diss intended on women or any one else... it is just a saying)
You can read a book to a daughter, but can't make her think..
(There is other saying, , with a little different words../smile/)
All should try to read and discuss.. we can't convince everyone.. nor are we going to be convinced by everyone.

Anyway, my hope is people, at least some people, would read what I am posting... and think.. So I will be posting a few more posts.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Chaanakya - I did glance at the Mitt article. I have no interest, let alone time, or expertise, to review it in details but let me point out three things which jumped out for me. (I could have probably chosen many others). I hope you and others do read it carefully.

(Gentle readers, I am trying to be brief, so please read the original link given by Chaaankya to get the Context etc)

1) - About the figures 100,000 deaths (it also quotes other reports which gives figures 985,000 ) It also reports “a thousand excess cancer fatalities because of Chernobyl” and it quotes “The IAEA has stated that only "up to four thousand" fatal cancers will result from Chernobyl. .”

Now one does not need privy to Roy and Nigam text book, or secret sources.. I just did a google on “death toll Chernobyl” and right at the top, was this link:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 563041.ece

It is a Times article with sources.. and it points out all the reports (including that Greenpeace had condemned the IAEA report) but at least let us see what the report is (to see how accurately Ritt is reporting these reports)

You will notice, (If you really read the article)… (All figures are according to the report.. I obviously don;’ vouch for that)

- “up to 4,000 fatal cancers” estimate was made at the time of accident.. final figure is 57 total deaths. (Out of 4000 serious cases, which they initially thought are doomed., 9 actually died. Ritt at the minimum ought to have at least clarified that the 4000 figures he was mentioning was earlier estimate. My leaning from that data was “We have learned a lot about treating thyroid cancers and radiation sickness” (99% of the patients which we thought would die, we were able to save them )

So Chaankya, if you don’t dismiss 100,000 or 985,000 figures , I don’t doubt you. For me I also look at other number 57 .. truth may be somewhere in between. Those 100,000 numbers , to me at least, looks like claims of 7000,0000,000 troops in Cahemere along with 500,000,000,000 raw agents in Karachi. …

2. I almost ROTFed when I read:
[In northen sweeden] …There was a high level of cesium-137. When we went there and waved our Geiger counters about the counters maxed out - it was that bad
Am I supposed to be impressed? Experts generally talk in quantitative terms.. fever was 102F.. voltage spike was 13.2V ..radiation was x rem/hr.. Specially when one is discussing “fetal exposure to ionizing radiation damages cognitive ability at radiation levels previously considered safe … in sweeden” this sounds like a quote from ScFi movie:
Due to radiation, our dog even though 24,00 Km away from point zero, had so many puppies that vet could not count them as he ran out of fingures
(Seriously, why can’t one (specially if it is a “prestigious” this and that) get the right radiation meter (or more likely put it on the right scale) to actually measure the dose!!!)


3. I was also surprised that the article also gives the same NYT report about tainted milk. I and others have posted it and put the numbers in perspectrive. Sankuji have posted it multiple times in multiple threads after that. And now it is being refered again in the Mitt article. Just read the article it self (where it says drinking it for a year will be equivalent ot 1 CT scan etc,,()
Okay ..Ld50 dose is 100 times worse (from 150000 tons to 1500 tons).. that’s why Japan is taking precautions… but

100,000 deaths??? (because experts don't understand and lie) … Really???

Doubting those numbers (100,000 or 985,000 deaths) a “hypothesis forced upon gullible masses..??????
Last edited by Amber G. on 23 Mar 2011 20:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

23.6-meter-high tsunami triggered by March 11 quake
tsunami wave that hit a coastal city in Iwate Prefecture after the March 11 massive earthquake is estimated to have reached 23.6 meters in height, a government-commissioned field survey by the Port and Airport Research Institute showed Wednesday.

The tsunami wave measured in the city of Ofunato was lower than the domestic record of 38.2 meters marked in the 1896 Meiji Sanriku Earthquake Tsunami, and 34.9 meters logged in the wake of the 2004 earthquake off the Indonesian coast of Sumatra.

However, Kazuhiko Toda, a researcher at the institute, said the height of the March 11 tsunami was marked under the condition where breakwaters and other counter-tsunami facilities have been set up, so it may have been greater in power than the one in 1896.

According to the Japan Meteorological Agency, tsunami waves higher than 2 meters can destroy timber houses. Concrete buildings can withstand tsunami up to 4 meters or so, but would also be destroyed if it exceeds 16 meters.
Amber G.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

^^^ The design/safety criteria for NPP for Tsunami was 6 meters..(per some reports)
ramana
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

AmberG its the proverbial 100 year or even 500 year tsunami!. The report implies but for breakwaters the 3/11 tsunami would have exceeded the 1896 tsunami.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

Vina, Please don't make personal remarks on other members. Consider this a caution. I believe you already have your share of warnings. Making remarks on somnath's background is uncalled for.

BTW all, remember the test for harassment. If the person percives it then it is harassment.

Admins will be forced to go on the escalatory path: admonishement, cautions, warnings and ban.

Everyone is here because they choose to be here. If not they will be on some other forum or blogs.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Amber I think you go through the journalist's report. He doesn't endorse 1,000,000 deaths by radiation claim from Greenpeace and 985,000 from a book Chernobyl: Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment.

The reporter says these are claims (meaning these are not facts) I doubt these claims as they may be equally conflicted party, which I mentioned.

However he quoted the swedish study which is is a supposedly scientific study published in a scientific journal and with a contrarian conclusions and if you have read it do post a link available.

So obsession with 1,000,000 deaths to dismiss the other side of story is certainly not in order.

His conclusions are moderate
if nothing else, it would appear nuclear power is not the "clean, safe, inexpensive and reliable" energy source some claim. As to what nuclear power is, Fukushima could well prove its defining moment.
Your other point is much appreciated.
My leaning from that data was “We have learned a lot about treating thyroid cancers and radiation sickness” (99% of the patients which we thought would die, we were able to save them )
Yes that's a good point. I entirely agree.

I didn't quote other points which are not claimed to be scientific study such as NYT report . All this may hurt his credibility but need to verify that research, which could be one off. Anyway I have placed request for that study.

btw I feel such exchanges are always informative. At least I learn from them. In discourse, one agrees to disagree if not convinced but that does not mean barbs and side comments are welcome. That do not add to the decent exchange of ideas.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Amber G. wrote:^^^ The design/safety criteria for NPP for Tsunami was 6 meters..(per some reports)
Do you think it was appropriate to design for 6 mts when record was at least for 38 mts?
Another report says that oil tanks for backup generators were washed away in the waves of tsunami hence they could not have operated backup even otherwise.

Here whatever I read indicated that everything that could fail failed.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

Sanku wrote:Okay this is BAD

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/radia ... er/766192/

Radiation detected in Tokyo water
That amount is more than twice the recommended limit of 100 becquerels per litre for infants, the most vulnerable segment of the population.
As bhaskaracharya said in surya-sidhanta calculation is very important..mistakes are as sinful as 'brahmin-hatya' ../smile/ So hopefully no mistakes in my calculation..

Recommended limit (per above) 100 beq/Kg for water (for babies)
Twice that 200 beq/Kg
For typical banana - 130 beq/Kg
Just for perspective... (Don't believe me just use your own dosimeter)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

Actually the enterpising members can design and market personal dosimeters in a choice of colors as designer ware and make a killing.

Can call it iDosi!

Instead of :((

:mrgreen:
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Gov't to support children orphaned by quake, tsunami


I think Indian experience in dealing with post tsunami orphaned children and their rehabilitation would be much useful to them in handling this. One would be amazed to see the transformation of orphaned children at Cuddalore and how they have embarked on new life. Indian NGOs and TN govt welfare agencies expertise would be useful to them. We should offer it pronto.
he welfare ministry decided Wednesday to find out how many children lost their parents in the devastating earthquake and tsunami in Japan and to support them by dispatching caseworkers to the afflicted areas, ministry officials said.

While it is estimated that more than 100 children became orphans as a result of the 1995 Great Hanshin Earthquake, ''the latest disaster has caused wide-scale damage and we are concerned that a greater number of children have lost their parents,'' a Health, Welfare and Labor Ministry official said.

Municipal governments on the coast severely damaged by the quake-triggered tsunami have lost the ability to function properly and are incapable at present of checking the situation regarding orphaned minors, according to the ministry.

Around 400 experts at 55 local governments have applied to be dispatched, but it will take time to fully launch the mission and find care homes or foster parents for such children due to damage to transport links and a fuel shortage, a ministry official said.

The National Police Agency said, meanwhile, the number of dead or unaccounted for following the March 11 disaster topped 25,000 as of 9 p.m. -- 9,487 dead and 15,617 missing, making it the biggest natural disaster since the 1923 Great Kanto Earthquake, which is believed to have resulted in 105,000 deaths.
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