Indian Education System

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 04 Mar 2011 04:01

http://www.hindu.com/2011/03/04/stories ... 521200.htm

When expelled Samajwadi Party leader Naseem Usmani argued that modern education had no place in Darul Uloom, he was roundly rebuffed by the rest: “Do you even know that ilm [knowledge] is the third most recurring word in the Koran? Find us the passage in the holy book that tells Muslims not to broaden their horizon.” I raised the Modi issue and was instantly put down: “We are not saying that Muslims should forgive Modi or forget 2002. But all of you in the secular media want the Gujarati Muslim never to get out of his grieving. Hindu or Muslim, the Gujarati is a businessperson, and that is what Vastanvi was trying to say.”

The words stung but they were true. The Congress and the secular media wanted the Gujarati Muslim forever to fight Mr. Modi but neither was there to protect him. In any case, unbeknown to most of us, the debate seemed to have progressed beyond the rights and wrongs of supporting Mr. Modi. I had a long chat with young Shahnawaz, a student at the Deoband seminary.

Mr. Shahnawaz worshipped the new mohtamim, who even without announcing major reforms, had shown that some things could easily be done, such as building a dining room for the talaba (students). Plate in hand, and waiting in serpentine lines, they currently made a pathetic picture. A brand new filtering system would provide clean drinking water. In time, and given the space he needs, Mr. Vastanvi would also introduce vocational courses.

There are some student firebrands who make a lot of noise, but “most of us have tired of the jalsa-jaloos [procession-protest] politics of the Muslim leadership,” Mr. Shahnawaz said. He was awfully proud of his cousin Saba Karim, who was training to be a pilot in Patna — the first to do so in two decades. “There is no disputing that deeni taleem [religious education] is the foundation of Darul Uloom. But being computer illiterate or not knowing English is not the solution. Right now we cannot even fill up a form,” said the young man, who made a stunning parting remark: “Do you know the Islamic revelation started with the word, iqra, which means to read?”

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 04 Mar 2011 04:46

Aditya_V wrote:Losers wasting thier life joing a course where supply is aldready too High.

AMIE, CA, ICWA ityadi used to have very low pass out rates. Unlike the science and engineering colleges, where you had to go through an entrance exam first and then surf happily through the college years; these professional streams allowed all ram, robert and rahim to study and take the group exams. Only the disciplined, hard working, committed & brilliant folks passed out.

Did things change, for you to make that kind of statement?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Mar 2011 12:40

SwamyG wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Losers wasting thier life joing a course where supply is aldready too High.
AMIE, CA, ICWA ityadi used to have very low pass out rates. Unlike the science and engineering colleges, where you had to go through an entrance exam first and then surf happily through the college years; these professional streams allowed all ram, robert and rahim to study and take the group exams. Only the disciplined, hard working, committed & brilliant folks passed out.

Did things change, for you to make that kind of statement?

Inbetween they did, the CA final Pass % increase dramtically from May 2004 attempt to May 2010 atempt with May 2006 having a 34% pass in May 2006 from the from say 3-5% range in 2000.

I think the % is now around 15%. I think ACS pass epercantages have also increased.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2011 08:26

After Beijing, University of Chicago plans centre in Delhi

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/after ... hi/765094/

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Mar 2011 06:42

^^^^
I am one of the folks who opposed the move to allow foreign universities into India, fully. Just wait till Indians start learning about India and Hinduism from folks like Wendy Doniger.

Along the lines of what the newly-established centre of UChicago in Beijing hopes to achieve, the proposed centre here will serve as a bridge to also be able to “pursue ideas for the sake of ideas”. Academics like Prof Chakrabarty feel that this pursuit, and a push for the study of languages and Humanities, is vital to allow democracies to flourish and grow.

Next we will have Witzel like folks teaching Sanksrit.

We are just fvked up onlee.

Foreigners should not control Indian Education. Period. It does not matter if they are NRIs, PoIs, India friendly or what not. Period.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Mar 2011 07:02

^^^How does entry of foreign unis "control" Indian education? Sounds similar to "entry of foreign companies will control India's economy" - it panned out a bit differently, didnt it?

Indian higher education across the board is in dire need for 2 things - 1) autonomy and 2) fresh expertise...Even at our elite institutions, the IIMs and IITs, while autonomy is reaonably well-guarded, the need for a fresh perspective today is higher than ever before..

People forget that the initial batch of IIX were all set-up with active and deep collaboration of American unis - to boot, they were funded substantially by American money too (which is a separate long story)! IIT-Kgp: Caltech, IIM-C: MIT, IIM-A: Harvard - over the years, these relationships have withered...Time to rejuvenate them...

And there is little to fear from foreign unis even on humanities - after all the best indology departments in the world are all outside India!

I would in fact argue differently...Set up a super regulator for education that screens every foreign uni application...So allow only the Chicago, MITs, not the University of Dakota or University of Dublin....

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 23 Mar 2011 07:46

This government is bent on taking the lazy approach to things. Foreign universities are being brought in because it is easier to score an end-run around local laws by setting up a putative "new" system than trying to deregulate education or reform the existing affirmative action laws.

If the government is serious about improving education, let it deregulate education and allow Indian as well as foreign institutions to set their own curriculum, their own tuition fees and hire the best faculty they can from around the world. The government sponsored regulator would be tasked with ensuring minimum standards are met, and also conducting the various entrance tests. This will put local universities on a level playing field with any foreign university.

The two objections to doing this that I have heard relate to the difficulty of staffing teaching faculty as well as the time required for newer institutions to find their bearings. For the first one, with the cutbacks in education everywhere, there is an ample supply of junior faculty in foreign universities that can be poached to get things off the ground. The second one is mitigated by the telecommunications revolution, which has made collaboration far easier than in the days that Harvard or even the IITs were set up.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Mar 2011 08:15

somnath wrote:^^^How does entry of foreign unis "control" Indian education? Sounds similar to "entry of foreign companies will control India's economy" - it panned out a bit differently, didnt it?

Indian higher education across the board is in dire need for 2 things - 1) autonomy and 2) fresh expertise...Even at our elite institutions, the IIMs and IITs, while autonomy is reaonably well-guarded, the need for a fresh perspective today is higher than ever before..

People forget that the initial batch of IIX were all set-up with active and deep collaboration of American unis - to boot, they were funded substantially by American money too (which is a separate long story)! IIT-Kgp: Caltech, IIM-C: MIT, IIM-A: Harvard - over the years, these relationships have withered...Time to rejuvenate them...

And there is little to fear from foreign unis even on humanities - after all the best indology departments in the world are all outside India!

I would in fact argue differently...Set up a super regulator for education that screens every foreign uni application...So allow only the Chicago, MITs, not the University of Dakota or University of Dublin....

There are similarities and differences. When foreign companies come in, if they are not regulated and given total leeway they will do what please their pockets, and not what is good for the country. You might ask, won't domestic companies do the same? Yes, but we will have more control. Even now, we have foreign diplomats and politicians influencing how we run our country.

I am not sure how it has panned now. Or maybe you are pointing to all those nuclear deals signed by us helping the foreign countries sell their snake oil here, or are you talking about the weapons and ammunition India buys from them?

Handing over our education to foreign entities, even when controlled, is doing what British and Missionaries tried to do for ages - Macaulay.

You need fresh perspective, young blood, different blood, white skin, yellow skin, red skin, brown skin or black skin, hire them as consultants. IPL has shown that for the right money, people will come to India and dance in front of our crowds. So will the academics or anyone else.

Collaboration with foreign entities is one thing - a different animal, and then inviting them to setup their shops. Is India going to control their syllabus? Science and Math might not pose any problem. But arts, humanities, language ityadi sure will be different.

And there is little to fear from foreign unis even on humanities - after all the best indology departments in the world are all outside India!

Here is a good book for you. Invading the Sacred. Ever hear of Wendy's Children? Seriously, that sentence should be in the humor dhaaga.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Mar 2011 08:41

SwamyG-ji,

The issues are different and multiferrous..

1. Regulation and participation are two different concepts...When an enterprise sets up shop in India, it doesnt matter if it is owned by a brown coloured Indian or a white-soloured gora, he plays by the rules as he sees it...And those rules are a function of regulations...In education, one can safely say that lack of regulations (and enforcement) has only engendered a mediocre quality setup (peddled at obnoxious prices) by the Indian pvt sector! Admirably promoted by politicians

..

It cant be anyone's case that Indian industry today is weaker than what it was 20 years back when foreigners were first allwoed "free entry""...

2. Syllabus...We have had 60 years of syllabus formation dictated by a bunch of decrepit chaps sitting at central non-acadmic places like State Education Boards, NCERT, UGC...And these setups, staffed by people way behind the times an typically beholden to a bunch of politiicans, make syllabi that re outdated - with the only change ever being a fetish with history and rewriting of the same...Guess what the brightest spots in our IIXs are? IMO, the freedom of the teacher to set his own courseware and evaluation methodology...Therefore, if foreign unis come here and set their own syllabi, it will be a step in the right (not metaphorically

) direction..

3. Technical collaboration with Indian unis is fine as a start...Most of the top unis around the world themselves would like to come-in via that route...At some stage though, it has to mean real stakes on the ground...A Caltech isnt going to be willing to lend its name to just a collaboration initiative...For it to commit larger resources, it will need a say in setting up of the project being envisaged - undergrad, post grad or doctoral...I would in fact make t mandatory for foreign unis selected to be entering into collaboration with elite indian unis...So a John Hopkins can set up a specilised school with AIIMS, MIT can setup a specialised finance school with IIM-C, Caltech can set up a post-grad tech-school with IIT-Kgp and so on..And these schools will stem the flow of Indian students going abroad for these very courses!

finally, I am not an Indology-enthusiast, so I wont comment on the specific cases - maybe you know better...But hat really not the point...

vera_k wrote:The two objections to doing this that I have heard relate to the difficulty of staffing teaching faculty as well as the time required for newer institutions to find their bearings.

VEra_k-ji, faculty is a HUGE issue...Even our best paying schools, the IIX, struggle to fill up faculty positions...If anything, entry of foreign unis will bring back a lot of Indians teaching abroad and help the local unis - especially if the new schools are JV efforts...

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 23 Mar 2011 09:13

^^^

I had the ISB model in mind. The IIX are not really going to be in the same league as they are constrained by GoI rules.

There is a surplus of PHds being minted abroad - not considering those just looking for career advancement - that can be enticed to work as faculty if the pay and autonomy is right. The issue is what this will cost in terms of tuition fees. On this I suspect that tuition fees are not that far off from being able to support expat hires to bootstrap departments especially when the NRI and capitation fees are thrown into the mix. What is missing is regulation to make the fees collected go to education rather than be diverted for other uses.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Mar 2011 09:25

^^^ISB hasnt turned out to be a great model of a university IMO...A first class teaching shop, yes..A uni? not at all..Despite all that funding, it remains a place where a 1-year post grad programme (an oxymoron IMO) is run primarily on guest faculties...A uni cant be made on guest faculties...

The IIX have a better chance - the autonomy they have is quite substantial...Pay is an issue, and they are trying to dela with that..JV schools with the like of Caltech, MIT etc will ensure people come in - the IIX have the brand and sheer student pool to attract...No self respecting PhD will come to teach in Akola Engg college, even if the pay was good!

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 23 Mar 2011 09:42

The first step should be to get the deemed universities to upgrade their standards. They have substantial infrastructure to the extent that many of them have university towns built around them. The IIX would have a shot if the GoI would stay out, but I am skeptical about this. What is likely to happen is that the IIX become the provider of education for the underprivileged. In fact, with high quality options available elsewhere, the class of student that decamps for "higher education" today (e.g. Sachin Pilot) will self select out of the IIX just as they do today.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Mar 2011 09:55

^^^Deemed unis are a scam...Most of them have minimal infrasructure - in fact cant think of a single deemed uni worthy of being even a good uni - happy to be corrected though...I think IITs have deemed uni status now, if yes, then only them...

People like Sachin Pilot dont have enough in the upper story to get into the IIX..Yes, these guys self select out..the route these days is standard - IB school - SAT - go abroad and continue! dont know what you mean by "underprivileged", the IIX encapsulates the vry best that India has to offer each year...Which is precisely the reason for their brand equity, and why they should front the foreign uni effort...

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 23 Mar 2011 10:16

I can name at least two (Manipal , Amity) that have good infrastructure that they can build on. There's quite a few more similar ones out there. The point is that the government's job should be to help the better ones improve by holding them to high standards.

On the IIX, I am saying their future mission will be different from their past. Their USP today is that they provide the best education in the country. This will not hold true in the future if and when foreign universities - the better ones - come in, as the IIX will instantly become the 2nd tier choice for anyone who cannot afford to pay or academically qualify into the foreign university run program.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 23 Mar 2011 13:50

Vera, the fact is that the IIM's especially, have done very well to move out of the constraints of GoI, or at least work their way around most of them. There is no doubt in my mind that the IIM's are gearing up for a good fight ahead (which is a very good thing).

Take for example IIM Calcutta. IIMC established a Finance Lab two years ago which is doing very well. The Finance department hosted the International Finance Conference recently, only the second edition, in which a number of papers were presented and discussions held. Similarly, IIMC also hosted an International Marketing Conference, well attended by marketing faculty and industry experts from the world over. At least IIMC has taken its research to a much higher level - more papers, more faculty participation in international events, increase in number of Fellows, greater industry participation etc. When you talk of collaboration, you'd be surprised at the number of foreign professors who teach courses in the IIM's and vice versa.

I think a lot of people in India have a lot of misconceptions about the IITs and IIM's, which I think is mainly because they do not market themselves. People get all their news about these institutions from the media, and the Indian media reports garbage half the time.

Your last point can be debated to death. Will a Harvard Business School, Hyderabad campus have the same charm as going to a Harvard Business School, Cambridge campus? For many students, half the attraction for going abroad is the exposure and lifestyle they'll get to experience, and for many others, its easier to get into a good American university for engineering/management than into an IIX. The biggest assumption we are making is that we are taking it for granted that students will flock to these India campuses. And if these campuses charge like crazy, take in as many as they can, than how different is an Indian campus of a good b-school from an IIPM? Will the job prospects be similar to their main campuses? All this remains to be seen.

As for the deemed universities, most of them in this country are run by politicians to rake in the G's. Its visible to all that so few of them are actually serious. BUT, they fill the big void in higher education that the established higher education system has not been able to fulfil, hence the fact that millions of students study in them.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Mar 2011 16:53

Vasu wrote:IIMC established a Finance Lab two years ago which is doing very well.

This is what got a 20 crore grant in the Budget this year...

When the foreign unis come in, they will actually find it easier to come in and set-up collaborative schools rather than stand-alone campuses...It gives them a ready pool of students, teachers and infrastructure to work off...

But really, the question isnt just about the technical areas like engg and finance...It is also about humanities...For a country with such a long and abiding tradition in the arts, philosophy, which Indian uni has made a name in liberal arts? Maybe JNU to a certain extent? Why shouldnt Indian students have a chance of studying history in Yale, or Cambridge setting up campuses in India? Why should we be afraid of new syllabi that cuts through the rubbish that passes through successive generations of UGC and State Education Boards?

IMO we should be boldly going out and attracting unis to come and set up shop here...But only the best - the Yales and the MITs, not the University of New South Wales

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 23 Mar 2011 17:07

Somnath, very good point. Other than JNU/DU (specific colleges within), i can't really point to any other university in India famous for its social sciences and/or humanities and/or liberal arts program, which is very sad.

Our own attitude shows that this is part of our inherent thinking, that kids just arent going to non-medical/engineering/commerce streams, mainly for this belief of lack of opportunities. I do not know how big a factor any foreign university will be in this issue.

A revolution is needed in medical education. There is an appalling shortage of medical seats in the country, thus resulting in a huge corrupt industry where medical seats are sold for many lakhs, and of course the fact that India is woefully short of doctors.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 23 Mar 2011 17:47

Have not read all the posts above, but two points in relation to inviting foreign universities into India-

1. While recognizing the benefits of improving standards of university education in India through getting in established overseas brands- the other central objective of the whole exercise should be for Indian leaders to emerge in this space who can then go global. Whether these will be the IIXs or private institutions such as Manipal / Amity or new ones who emerge from the competition should not matter - but if the end result is that overseas brands land up getting preference over Indian ones by the brightest in India - that will not be a happy end-result for the country. The whole exercise should therefore be structured in a manner where the competition forces Indian firms to take their game to the next level and Indian leaders emerge on an equal footing with overseas brands.

2. Hard sciences should definitely be the first priority. Humanities courses are not required - and even if they are allowed at a later stage - contentious areas of study such as history, sociology, religion, political sciences should either be off-limits for the overseas players or their curriculum and course content would need to be supervised and controlled.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 23 Mar 2011 18:21

^^^Indian schools, the better ones are going to benefit..The Ivy League schools will themselves tie-up with the IIXs for various reasons listed earlier...Not sure about AMity/Manipal though - they are little more than teaching shops, no pedigree..

There is nothing to fear on humanities either...If anything, any uni base out of India will be ultra sensitive to Indian sensibilities...Who knows, we might be able to attract the likes of Amartya Sen and Naom Chomsky to teach the next generation of our students!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Mar 2011 18:24

Somnath
Syllabus: I rather have our politicians and dumb wits dictating the syllabus in humanities than some foreigner. Period. It is like let us dumb heathens govern India the way we see it than the English Queen. It is our land, our culture, our people. Let us do it the way we see it. Science & Math should not be a problem. Unless someone introduces "Intelligent Design" as a course

I have views, right or wrong, on some of the way things are run in this World be it Economics or Medicine. I see you are active in the Economics dhaaga, and reading your posts I assume you are far qualified and knowledgeable than me in that field. So you must have seen the evolution of Economics thoughts over decades. Right now, the Chicago School of Economics focusing on "rational humans" or "rational economics" is being challenged. The point is the Economics model developed in the West has historical and cultural background set in Europe and America.

Some Western scholars have shown some interest in linking Buddhism and Economics. During the initial days of the Economics meltdown perspective dhaaga I became infatuated with a Dharmic Economic model. I thought I hit a brilliant idea, only to discover that our Purusharthas had long ago laid out the model as Artha and Kama earned under the umbrella of Dharma. So there are great Indic homegrown economic models. Alas, they have not been well developed for the 21st century. Not many commentaries. Essentially, Indic models have been ignored.

Next the Medicine field. We have a tendency to ape the West, because whatever happens in the West we think is the best. Yoga, meditation and alternative medicines have caught their fascination now. And I am sure India will follow suit. But we already had these for centuries.

Political and social studies. India has a rich collection of literature on these subjects, not much is taught about them. We continue to study Aristotle.

Eventually, our society is going to imbibe what is being taught in the Universities,no? We are already more Westernized than the West.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 23 Mar 2011 20:47

somnath wrote:^^^Indian schools, the better ones are going to benefit..The Ivy League schools will themselves tie-up with the IIXs for various reasons listed earlier...Not sure about AMity/Manipal though - they are little more than teaching shops, no pedigree..

Everything starts out as a teaching shop. They have to be upgraded from where they start out. By some standards, the IIX are not much better than teaching shops themselves (how many Nobels, Turing awards do they have?).

Vasu wrote:Your last point can be debated to death. Will a Harvard Business School, Hyderabad campus have the same charm as going to a Harvard Business School, Cambridge campus?

India is status concious as well as price sensitive, so they'd do quite well if its the same degree. The same questions were asked when the first private colleges were set up to compete with the government colleges. In any case, the Ivy League itself is setting up remote campuses and getting into distance and online education.

Vasu wrote:As for the deemed universities, most of them in this country are run by politicians to rake in the G's.

Both goals do not have to be mutually exclusive. Many of these universities started out from rented rooms in some existing college. If they have come this far, they can go further. In a way, you can see some upgradation already if the increasing number of MS/postgraduate degrees on offer is any indication.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Mar 2011 21:07

somnath wrote:IMO we should be boldly going out and attracting unis to come and set up shop here...But only the best - the Yales and the MITs, not the University of New South Wales

Why not learn from them and replicate their positive things here, instead of handing over the keys to our Godrej bureau to them?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Mar 2011 06:45

^^^Its hard becoz rich people who are also visionaries is hard to come by (only the Tatas come to mind). Rest are all too busy in using education as another means to earn a quick buck.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Mar 2011 06:46

vera_k wrote: By some standards, the IIX are not much better than teaching shops themselves (how many Nobels, Turing awards do they have?).

Its a valid point - the IIXs have been lacking in research output (though I wouldnt take the Nobel as the touchstone - how many non-Caucasians have won the Nobel?)...they have been trying to rectify the situation...And opportunities of greater collaboration with foreign unis would goa long way..

SwamyG wrote:Eventually, our society is going to imbibe what is being taught in the Universities,no? We are already more Westernized than the West

SwamyG-ji, dont know what you mean by "more westernised than the west"...By what measure? In fact one of the sociological trends observed in recent times (caveat - I am NOT a sociologist, just going by what people like Ashihs Nandy etc have been writing) is that Indians settled abroad are more conservative than Indians in India!

Anyways, back to the point, when Macdonalds came to India, they said that Mac will change India's eating out behaviour...What happened? India changed Macdonalds! The entire menu had to be redone (in fact the flagship items on the Indian menu is unquely Indian)...And a new business model, of having a door-to-door delivery service had to be created as well (which they now have in a few other countries)!

Everything, including history, needs to be refreshed with new ideas and thoughts...Our current structure (outside the IIxs) dont really allow for tht - the same old doddering idiots write the books, year in and year out...If its not Nurul Hassan, then its MM Joshi! Fundamentally no difference...Theoretically, we can try and imbibe the best practices from others - we should indeed try to do so...But that will take time...Till then, get the "best" guys in, let them set up new schools, preferably in collaboration with our elite schools- it will change the face of Indian higher education..

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 24 Mar 2011 07:28

somnath wrote:Everything, including history, needs to be refreshed with new ideas and thoughts...Our current structure (outside the IIxs) dont really allow for tht - the same old doddering idiots write the books, year in and year out...If its not Nurul Hassan, then its MM Joshi! Fundamentally no difference...

No debate here. But this is done by the government on purpose, as the current structure is very good for pushing down their ideological biases. There may also be an element where the generation that was so enamoured of central planning hasn't passed on yet.

somnath wrote:Theoretically, we can try and imbibe the best practices from others - we should indeed try to do so...But that will take time...Till then, get the "best" guys in, let them set up new schools, preferably in collaboration with our elite schools- it will change the face of Indian higher education..

The best guys can work for our schools just like any other expat does for Jet or Infosys. Where is the problem, except the government's insistence to control and centralize education with an iron fist?

To be sure, I don't dispute that foreign universities can have a role. But why set up two separate systems by pushing off the hard work of reforming education for domestic players?

VenkataS · Post by **VenkataS** » 24 Mar 2011 08:15

somnath wrote:^^^ISB hasnt turned out to be a great model of a university IMO...A first class teaching shop, yes..A uni? not at all..Despite all that funding, it remains a place where a 1-year post grad programme (an oxymoron IMO) is run primarily on guest faculties...A uni cant be made on guest faculties...

ISB is not a great university yet, but it is not right to claim that it is nothing other than a teaching shop.
ISB now has a sizable resident faculty base as well. I think on last count they had 42 resident faculty members (a decent number), accumulated over the 10 years since ISB came into existence. Here is the link to their resident faculty page:
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/ResidentFaculty.aspx

Remember it is much harder to attract established research driven faculty unless you have a PhD program in place.
For whatever reason ISB has been late in starting its PhD program, I guess it has to do with the fact that they are not accredited yet. They chose (wisely I think) not to go through the AICTE route for accreditation. They are however mid-way through a 5 year evaluation period for AACSB accreditation.

In the meantime they have started a program titled "Fellow Program in Management" this year which according to them grooms students for faculty positions around the world (while paying them an annual stipend of Rs 700,000). Once they are an AACSB member I assume they will start a full fledged PhD program as well. This is going to help them with further faculty recruitment. If by 2020 they have ~80 resident faculty members along with an established Phd program I am sure ISB would be counted as one of the premier business schools in Asia.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 24 Mar 2011 08:58

That was just frustration, like saying holier than Pope

You don't see the difference between a company selling a product for consumption versus inculcating a particular education? Yea, good things take time. After 1991, we have been growing faster than previously, no? Things are changing for both good and bad. We don't want people like Witzel or Wendy Doniger to teach Indians Sanskrit and our own History. Our History already has been written from Westerners for ages now. Our Indic traditions have been analyzed from the Western perspective for centuries now. And now, you want them to come right in and do the same more? Why saar why?

Let me give you a good example. I am tamilian, and having been schooled in Kendriya Vidyalaya, I was never taught my own mother tongue. I had to pick it up on my own interest, reading magazines and going to an after school class for an year. I can read short stories and jokes. More than that, the head refuses to read further. Now I have not been able to read tamil epics which are celebrated and very noteworthy. So that is one thing, the next in the Central School system, the South Indian history is almost taught as an after thought. Now all the history I know is again from my own interest reading internet and spending thousands of rupees on books. Why saar why?

I do not mind people being taught virtues and ethics pondered by the Greek Philosophers; but who will teach them our own Purusharthas? Who will teach them the nuances between Manu Smriti, Mahabharatam and Arthasastra on the role of King and State? Who will teach the management lessons from Bhagvad Gita? Who will research on the benefits of Yoga, Meditation, Ayurveda, Siddha Vaidyam to name a few? Are we going to wait till Western Universities "invent"/"discover" them, apply for patents and then "transfer" knowledge to heathens in India?

You might correctly ask, but our Universities are not doing that now, no? Yes. But there are some that are starting, but I have no hopes of a Chicago or Beijing based University getting into these areas.

Does it hurt to have some kind of courses in Vedic Mathematics? Or have Lilavati of Bhaskarcharya as a study material say for a term project? How about Kerala School of Mathematics & Astronomy for fun or just awareness?

I want our people to learn the best too saar. I want them to prosper just like you desire. But there is certain things that we should not hand over to outside entities. One is the cultivation of our mind.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Mar 2011 09:50

Dont know if this was discused before, but here is the draft NATIONAL COMMISSION FOR HIGHER EDUCATION AND
RESEARCH BILL. It is designed to take over the regulatory funcitons of a host of bodies like the UGC and AICTE - and be a sort of a supra regulator of education...

http://www.education.nic.in/uhe/NCHERAct-2010.pdf

A bad idea IMO...What we need in India is not more centralisation of higher education, but greater decentralisation..Selectively, institutions need to be let go to further their own destinies...DU for example, needs to be able to set curriculum according to its own requirements...

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Mar 2011 03:45

SwamyG, KVs were conceptualized for kids of central government personnel so unfortunately no one gets to learn his/her mother tongue (Hindi being an exception). Your other grievances are genuine but you see if NCERT would have incorporated those education wouldn't have been secular, no ?

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 26 Mar 2011 16:57

VenkataS wrote:
somnath wrote:^^^ISB hasnt turned out to be a great model of a university IMO...A first class teaching shop, yes..A uni? not at all..Despite all that funding, it remains a place where a 1-year post grad programme (an oxymoron IMO) is run primarily on guest faculties...A uni cant be made on guest faculties...
In the meantime they have started a program titled "Fellow Program in Management" this year which according to them grooms students for faculty positions around the world (while paying them an annual stipend of Rs 700,000). Once they are an AACSB member I assume they will start a full fledged PhD program as well. This is going to help them with further faculty recruitment. If by 2020 they have ~80 resident faculty members along with an established Phd program I am sure ISB would be counted as one of the premier business schools in Asia.

The Fellow Program is the PhD program. Even the IIM's technically do not award PhD's, but Fellowships. Its all due to the technicalities in Indian laws in higher education. Since These institutions are not universities, they can't award degrees, only diplomas. So IIM's, ISB award Post Graduate Diplomas, not MBAs. Similarly the Fellowship program, which is the same as a PhD program. According to the ISB site, the program will replicate the entire PhD program at INSEAD.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 07 Apr 2011 07:54

Educating India

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110405/ ... 2024a.html

Subha Chakraborty has hardly left the lab in three months. His master's research in micro-scale systems is running into the early hours almost every morning, and "that is not the right time to go back to your room and sleep", he says. So he bunks on a makeshift bed under his computer and cooks on a toaster in the corner of the lab's common room.

Chakraborty isn't alone: most of the lab's ten postgraduate students follow a similar schedule. "There's some kind of charm here," says one of them, Anindya Roy, who has decided to officially surrender his dormitory room.

These students at the banyan-tree-lined campus of the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) in Kharagpur are among India's luckiest and best: once they have completed their degrees, they will end up working at top universities and private research hubs in India and around the world. But the optimism and drive are ubiquitous. "When you go to the rural parts of the country you meet extraordinarily bright kids who just have to be given the opportunity," says Chintamani Rao, chief scientific adviser to India's prime minister. There are a lot of them — around 90 million between the college-going ages of 17 and 21, rising to an estimated 150 million by 2025. And they are hungry, starving even, for an education (see 'Technology levels the educational playing field'.

Brain drain

But can India feed that hunger? The government has pledged to make it a priority, but faces tremendous obstacles. Most of the elite science and engineering graduates opt for high-paying jobs in industry rather than independent research. Other students far too often end up in high-priced commercial diploma-mills that deliver little real education. Many, many more young Indians don't even get that far: the country's 500 universities and 26,000 colleges have space for only about 12% of its eligible youth. And the population is growing by 1.34% a year, more than twice the rate of growth in China (see 'A double explosion').

But if India cannot meet this challenge, it could miss out on becoming one of the world's great innovation hubs, says Rao. "There is a very large population out there that is extremely qualified and they end up in second or third-rate institutions," agrees Pradeep Khosla, dean of engineering at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and a graduate of IIT Kharagpur. "A lot of talent gets wasted."

On the surface, India seems to be in the middle of an educational renaissance, thanks largely to its booming economy. After decades of economic stagnation under the socialist policies that followed the country's independence in 1947, Indians enthusiastically embraced a series of business-friendly reforms that began in the early 1990s. The result has been economic growth that currently averages more than 8% a year, with only a slight and temporary slowdown during the global financial crisis that began in 2008. That growth, in turn, has created a flourishing market for qualified graduates in everything from construction to information technology and health care.

"There are a lot of stories of successes — from rags to riches — of Indians who made it just on the basis of good education," says Pawan Agarwal, author of Indian Higher Education: Envisioning the Future (Sage; 2009). "This is creating high aspirations among Indians about higher education."

Those ambitions, along with the population growth, have fuelled an eight-fold increase in science and engineering enrolment at India's colleges and universities over the past decade, with most of the growth occurring in engineering and technology — fields in which jobs are especially plentiful. The low cost of doing business in India and the large crop of English-speaking graduates has made it a global hot spot for investment in research and development (R&D).

"In 2003, 100 foreign companies had established R&D facilities in India," says Thirumalachari Ramasami, head of the government's Department of Science and Technology. "By 2009, the number had grown to 750." Those companies include technology and communications firms such as IBM, General Electric, Cisco, Motorola, Oracle and Hewlett-Packard, all eager to get a foothold in the fast-growing information-technology hub around Bangalore.

Small wonder, then, that the 15 IIT campuses nationwide have roughly 300,000 applicants every year, or that the students who make it in are very, very good: IIT acceptance rates are about 2% (see 'Only the best'), compared with around 7% at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, an emblem of US elitism. "Statistically, out of a billion people there must be a Michael Faraday," says Rao. "There must be a number of talented people."

Look closer, however, and it becomes apparent that there are serious cracks in the system. For example, the vast majority of India's science and technology graduates immediately head for high-paying jobs in industry. Only about 1% of them go on to get PhDs, compared with about 8% in the United States. "Internally the brain drain is quite high," says Rao. "All the talent goes into sectors that make money but produce very little in terms of creative things for the country."

What makes this problematic, adds Rao, is that the country's rising economic tide is largely the result of its myriad outsourcing centres and the computer industry. If India cannot broaden its economy — and make better use of its brightest scientific minds — it will have little chance of solving its challenges in areas such as poverty, food, energy and water security.

"Everyone's just making computers faster, and our computers are pretty fast already," agrees Manu Prakash, who graduated from the IIT in Kanpur — and who, like many Indians with academic ambitions, elected to pursue his education elsewhere. He earned his PhD from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge, and now runs his own biophysics lab at Stanford University in California.

Prakash says that although the IIT system does attract superb students, it is institutionally broken because it doesn't value creativity. "You have a brilliant mathematician coming into an engineering course and then taking a nine-to-five job with a company," he says. "There is something wrong there."

Quantity versus quality

Whatever its flaws, the IITs remain out of reach for millions of eager, ambitious Indian students. The higher-education system is expanding pell-mell to accommodate them — with the burgeoning private sector filling around 90% of the demand. "We will need another 800–900 universities and 40,000–45,000 colleges within the next 10 years," says Kapil Sibal, India's minister of human resources and development. "And that's not something the government can do on its own."

For-profit colleges and universities are popping up around the country by the day — nearly 4,000 of them in 2010 alone. The road leading out of Chennai in southern India, like many around the country, is crammed with hundreds of private engineering colleges. The government has struggled to maintain any kind of standard. "The big challenge is that when you move to grant more access [to education], that the access must come with quality," says Sibal.

“We are spoon-fed. The teachers dictate and the students write down what they say.”
Many private institutions have only a few hundred students each and offer little in the way of laboratory or practical training, because labs are expensive. Curricula are outdated and there are crippling shortages of teaching staff, thanks to the allure of higher-paying industry jobs. "The younger generation is completely disillusioned with pursuing higher education with the intention of going into teaching," says Agarwal. Sibal estimates that at least 25% of academic posts are vacant and more than half of professors lack a postgraduate education.

Rahul, who prefers that his real name not be used, studies information technology at a private college an hour outside Delhi. "We are spoon-fed," he says. "The teachers dictate and the students literally write down what they say."

Rahul's parents paid hundreds of thousands of rupees up front to get him into the institute after he scored poorly on entrance exams. He says that about 30% of his peers entered in the same way, and at other colleges the informal 'management quota' can be as high as 40–50%.

This year, tuition at the institute cost 85,000 rupees (US$1,900): more than three times that charged by the IIT system. And the payments at many private colleges don't stop there, says Rahul. "A few days before [exams] you can pay 1,000 rupees for a copy of the paper, and you can pay another couple of thousand rupees if you didn't get the right marks," he says. "Then, if you don't attend classes or labs, you can pay 5,000 rupees to fulfil your attendance quota. Education here is based entirely on money. And to think, my institute is one of the best in the area."

There are more than 600 colleges affiliated with one university in his province alone, and every college has 5–6 branches, with 60–120 students each. "That's lakhs [hundreds of thousands] of students passing out of these colleges per year," says Rahul.

Moreover, many of the students are graduating with abysmal literacy and numeracy skills. Employers' surveys suggest that up to 75% are unemployable.

"You can pay to get in, you can pay to get good marks and you can pay for your attendance, but you can't pay to get into a good company," says Rahul. "There are people at my college who don't even know how to say 'how are you?' in English" — the working language of most companies.

Rahul's experience is not unusual. Geeta Kingdon, who studies education, economics and international development at the University of London's Institute of Education, points to allegations of widespread corruption in how Indian institutes and universities are accredited. "Even those who have got the relevant accreditation only got it because they paid the relevant bribe," she says. Many don't bother. A government crackdown on unaccredited institutions in 2010 left more than 40 universities and thousands of colleges in court.

Corruption has even reached the august halls of IIT Kharagpur. Last October, a handful of the institute's top engineering professors were accused of running a fake college called the Institution of Electrical Engineers (India) from the campus. The scheme allegedly involved the use of forged documents bearing the IIT logo to lure in students, who were charged 27,000 rupees for admission, roughly what the IITs charge per year. The IIT Kharagpur has launched an inquiry into the incident. "But there will always be another scandal down the road," says Srinivasan Ramanujam, a mechanical engineer at the institute. "Students are desperate to get into a college and people exploit this mentality."

With all these desperate but half-baked graduates, India's hopes of becoming a global centre of innovation are being compromised. Too often, the corporate R&D model sweeping through India treats science graduates more as grunt workers than true innovators, says Ramasami. "Just availability of scientifically talented people does not provide scientific breakthroughs. For the discovery process you need ambience and creative people."

India's government is working hard to change the trend. In January 2010, for example, it pledged to ramp its investment in R&D up from the current 1% of the gross domestic product to 2%, but this will happen very slowly, says Rao. The government's budget for 2011–12 included a one-third increase in its annual higher-education investment, to a total of 130 billion rupees. And it has approved a new funding agency, the National Science and Engineering Research Board, which is expected to become operational this year, and will have an initial budget of around US$120 million, says Rao.

By 2014, says Ramasami, the hope is that such measures will raise the number of science and technology PhDs awarded each year from the current 8,900 — less than one-third that of the United States or China — to at least 10,000. By the end of the decade, he says, the target is 20,000 PhDs a year.

Overseas input

The government is also counting on an injection of money and expertise from foreign academic institutions. With enrolment rates waning abroad, many universities are looking to India as a new academic market — including US institutions such as the University of California, Berkeley, and Carnegie Mellon University.

US President Barack Obama's trip to India last November highlighted the growing interest: included in his delegation were three presidents of US universities and senior representatives of several more. During the trip, Obama and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh announced that they would hold a US–India summit on higher education this year to help encourage collaborations.

So far, Indian law has restricted foreign universities to forming partnerships with Indian institutions, says Sibal. But a Foreign Educational Institutions Bill being considered in India's parliament would allow them to build full-blown campuses of their own. Sibal takes it as a sign of what India could become. "Top-quality institutions of the United States and around the world are actually knocking at our door," he says. "The India of tomorrow will be an India that provides solutions not just for itself, but also for the rest of the world."

But that is only if India's rising youthful generation can break out of its current job-based mentality — not easy in a developing country.

One evening late last year, Shirsesh Bhaduri, a fourth-year biotechnology student at IIT Kharagpur, visited Tikka — a makeshift café in the shade of a banyan tree, where students and faculty members catch up over cups of 3-rupee tea and samosas. But just over the campus's whitewashed walls is the reality of West Bengal state and most of India: unruly fields, shanty villages, water buffalo and jungle.

"In other countries, people may choose their career according to their interests," says Bhaduri, who has just been to an interview with London-based bank Barclays. "But here the industries that pay the maximum attract the maximum applications. Most people do a master's in business administration after the IIT — and that is the aim of most people out here. Everything is money-oriented."

Anjali Nayar is a freelance writer based in Nairobi.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 07 Apr 2011 15:03

Talking of higher education, there has been an interesting development on the IIMs.

A committee led by RC Bhargava and Ajit Balakrishnan was set-up to suggest a roadmap for the IIMs...They brought out their report recently..
http://www.education.nic.in/tech/IIM-Re ... mittee.pdf

Its resulted in a fierce firestorm amongst faculty members...The IIM-C faculty has already put up a position paper criticquing the proposals..
http://www.iimcal.ac.in/IIMC-Restructur ... -Paper.pdf

Its an interesting debate - what i good however is how key statekholders (faculty, students) of the IIMs (and IITs) take their independence so zealously and protect it...

On the proposals themselves, some good, some bad..But to me the most pernicious is the one on giving pvt companies "equity stakes" in IIMs...This is just not acceptable..We cant have any Tom, Dick and Harry "buying" a stake in India's most elite schools...Imagine, tomorrow someone like Balwa or Anil Agarwal buying a stake in one of the IIM?!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 16:28

but I hope they are allowed to donate buildings and labs with their marble statues or portraits displayed in the lobby! win win for both.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 07 Apr 2011 17:41

Singha wrote:but I hope they are allowed to donate buildings and labs with their marble statues or portraits displayed in the lobby! win win for both.

I would have a problem with that too..Imagine a bust of Vijay Mallya in the lobby!

Funding isnt a huge issue anymore for the IIXs...student fees have gone up, the existing corpuses are large, MDPs are failry lucrative and alumni contribuitions are going up....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 19:02

I was thinking for engg and medical colleges and the large univs. all have some really rich alumni somewhere. what better ego boost than a entire building named after you with a statue or bust in front.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 08 Apr 2011 21:12

Why India's demographic dividend will lag China's

A sustained and massive investment in education, an increase from the current 3.8% of GDP to 5%, is necessary to improve both basic literacy and skills though given the budget deficits at the national and state levels, it is not clear how this can be done. Vocational education is imperative to move unproductive farm workers to productive industrial workers. The country needs tens of thousands of qualified trades-people like electricians, carpenters, plumbers, bricklayers, masonry workers, HVAC contractors, IT and security contractors, and so on for all the infrastructure that is expected to be built.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 11 Apr 2011 08:59

somnath wrote:Funding isnt a huge issue anymore for the IIXs...student fees have gone up, the existing corpuses are large, MDPs are failry lucrative and alumni contribuitions are going up....

So why is this joke repeated year after year? Somewhere there is a lack of resources preventing expansion of the system leading to demand outstripping supply.

4.8 lakh aspirants for 10,000 IIT seats

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Apr 2011 09:09

The current infra isnt good enough even for the OBC-quota related expansions...

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Apr 2011 09:38

If they have so much funding, then IITs need to demand a separate pay structure for their faculty. That will go a long way in attracting top talent back to them from massa etc. The 2008 depression did cause a temporary supply of such people back to the IITs I believe but now with things looking up a bit (despite D-and-G in e-khan-no-money dhaaga

)and hiring for good candidates going strong, that probably wont happen.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 11 Apr 2011 13:36

vera_k wrote:Why India's demographic dividend will lag China's

A sustained and massive investment in education, an increase from the current 3.8% of GDP to 5%, is necessary to improve both basic literacy and skills though given the budget deficits at the national and state levels, it is not clear how this can be done. Vocational education is imperative to move unproductive farm workers to productive industrial workers. The country needs tens of thousands of qualified trades-people like electricians, carpenters, plumbers, bricklayers, masonry workers, HVAC contractors, IT and security contractors, and so on for all the infrastructure that is expected to be built.

The discussion on this thread itself should be an indication of what we view as important. We are talking of the policy intricacies of the IIMs and IITs where only a minute percentage of the entire student population of India studies.

Vocational training has a very blue collar connotation in our society. A carpenter will remain a carpenter despite whatever qualifications he may have. I know a gentleman who was telling me he turned out an opportunity to get an engineering degree many years ago and chose a diploma in carpentry from an ITI. My own distant relative turned down joining IIM A/B/C many years ago because he wanted to work in the industry! such days are well past us.

Anybody living in India will probably have experienced shoddy work from say a regular carpenter, fabricator, plumber or mason, for the simple reason that their only training is limited to what they learn from their employer and learn on the job. The ITI's were big many years ago, but seem to have disappeared from the national psyche completely now!