2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

[arnab]

The former has obviously been analysed by UNSCEAR.

No.

Check this out.

In the International Chernobyl Project organised by the IAEA (IA91), field studies were undertaken in the latter half of 1990 on the permanent residents of the rural settlements with a surface caesium contamination of greater than 555 kBq/m2, and on control settlements of 2 000 to 50 000 persons, using an age matched study design. Seven contaminated and six control settlements were chosen by the medical team of the Chernobyl Project. Since all persons could not be examined, representative samples were taken from various age groups. In all, 1 356 people were examined, and the aim was to examine about 250 from each of the larger settlements. Three medical teams each spent two weeks conducting medical examinations to provide the data for these assessments.

The medical examinations were quite comprehensive, and the general conclusions reached were that there were no health abnormalities which could be attributed to radiation exposure,

http://www.oecd-nea.org/rp/chernobyl/c05.html

[shiv]

Perhaps this is why some are more susceptible than others. Older folks who have fewer cell divisions are less affected than infants who have numerous growth changes ongoing. Maybe some can live in a high radiation zone without to many problems until they get very sick and the body has to go through massive tissue repair and cell division making them vulnerable.

Better not to get into this. Once you commit to being in the medical field - every year you find out how little is actually known. Older people do have fewer cell divisions. But then why do they get most of the cancers normally? There is one heck of a lot that is not known. And wonder of wonders! How are cancers treated? By ionizing radiation. Increasingly. Masha allah! Doctors, including myself are so cock sure of ourselves with the little we actually know.

[Theo_Fidel]

field studies were undertaken in the latter half of 1990 on the permanent residents of the rural settlements ,

Just 4 years after accident.

[shiv]

Homoeopathy is being driven out of the UK by utter contempt because the techniques of homoeopathy do not fit in with research that is modelled to prove things in "modern science". I am no homoeopath but I have read that the principle used to cure illness is to deliver to the patient in small doses the very noxious substances that supposedly cause the manifestation of the illness so that he can build up resistance.

Does that sound like suspicious snake oil?

If so listen to this. And its called modern medical science.

"Ionizing radiation causes cancer and we will tell you how much is the limit. But hey if you do get cancer, we may choose to treat you with the same damn ionizing radiation in humongous doses far far higher than those we have earlier recommended as safe"

You have to believe it because your doctor tells you. Your doctor will also tell you that he is taking every possible precaution to stop your "fast duplicating cells" in your bone marrow and intestine from being exposed to radiation. but hey when the intestine or bone marrow is in the path of radiation he uses, he tells you "It's OK. There will be some damage but "we" have to accept that"

[GuruPrabhu]

The Banana dose garbage I see on the news is particularly foolish. K40 is naturally present and our bodies have developed ways to keep amounts of it under strict control.

Saar, banana may be foolish -- it was meant to be funny.

But, you Saar, have a prize-e-noble coming your way for this "strict control" discovery. Wow!! The body has developed a radioactivity sequestration mechanism? Have you published this in Nature yet? Patent it fast before someone reads BRF and gets a clue.

I am not asking you for links because that would negate the prize-e-noble criteria.

[shiv]

But, you Saar, have a prize-e-noble coming your way for this "strict control" discovery. Wow!! The body has developed a radioactivity sequestration mechanism? Have you published this in Nature yet? Patent it fast before someone reads BRF and gets a clue.

I am not asking you for links because that would negate the prize-e-noble criteria.

GuruPrabhu ji. Be careful when you say such things because you will be made to eat your words. If you edit/delete your post i will delete mine. You are wrong. The body can and does sequester radioactive elements of certain types. Never mind the mechanism - it is actually stupidly simple when you learn about it. Assuming you don't already know.

[GuruPrabhu]

Shiv saar,

I am confident of my assertions. Please post how the body sequesters RADIOACTIVE isotopes preferentially. The body works on chemistry and not nuclear physics. If you were to drink a glass of heavy water rather than regular water, your body will not know the difference. So, please be careful yourself about what you claim.

case in point -- body may treat potassium in a certain way. But there is no way it distinguishes between K-39 and K-40.

[GuruPrabhu]

And wonder of wonders! How are cancers treated? By ionizing radiation. Increasingly. Masha allah!

Subhanallah! Radiation is a funny animal. Most folks are scared of it but are very willing to use it if their life is under threat.

I realize that folks are posting complaints against me and Ramana saar has cautioned me. So, I am indeed careful.

[Theo_Fidel]

Potassium level is strictly controlled by the body. Doesn't matter how many banana's you eat your K-40 level stays the same, meaning your 'dose' never actually increases.

The discrimination between C-12 & C-13 in many many biological processes springs to mind. And I vaguely remember that D2 is rejected by the DNA or was it RNA strand. Many many others. I'm a long way removed from biology classes.

[arnab]

field studies were undertaken in the latter half of 1990 on the permanent residents of the rural settlements ,

Just 4 years after accident.

Report presented to UN by UNSCEAR in 2010

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/ ... penElement

Although much new research data has become available, the major conclusions
regarding the scale and nature of the effects of radiation on health were consistent
with the Committee’s reports of 1988 and 2000.

The Committee observed that it was often difficult for the public and the
media to appreciate that radiation risks, while serious for some exposed groups,
were, for the general population, not as significant from a health point of view as
they were often represented to be. With the exception of the early deaths among
emergency workers, which were clinically attributable to acute radiation syndrome,
and the small proportion of thyroid cancers that were fatal, the Committee found
that it was not possible to attribute any specific deaths to irradiation from the
accident.

[GuruPrabhu]

Potassium level is strictly controlled by the body. Doesn't matter how many banana's you eat your K-40 level stays the same, meaning your 'dose' never actually increases.

That is obvious. K-40 levels as a fraction of total K levels are the same in your body, my body, the moon, Andromeda and far away quasars.

that is elementary physics.

What is this "strict control" you talk of that the body has developed?

Even then you are off base. if you eat more bananas, your body is exposed to the decays of K40 while the bananas are in your stomach/intestines. It is only after the K is absorbed, that the level control mechanism kicks in.

[Theo_Fidel]

your body is exposed to the decays of K40 while the bananas are in your stomach/intestines.

K-40 has half life of ~ 1 Billion years. Stays in body less than 8 hours.

There are many isotope levels the body does not strictly control. These tend to accumulate. Mercury for one. In our context Strontium & maybe even Caesium.

Arnab,

Your link doesn't work.

What you should search for is what happened to the birds living long term in the area.

[shiv]

Shiv saar,

I am confident of my assertions. Please post how the body sequesters RADIOACTIVE elements preferentially. The body works on chemistry and not nuclear physics. If you were to drink a glass of heavy water rather than regular water, your body will not know the difference. So, please be careful yourself about what you claim.

case in point -- body may treat potassium in a certain way. But there is no way it distinguishes between K-39 and K-40.

No the body does not sequester radioactivity preferentially. I apologise for trying to stop you from making a semantic point when you made the following statement

Wow!! The body has developed a radioactivity sequestration mechanism? Have you published this in Nature yet? Patent it fast before someone reads BRF and gets a clue.

But the body does sequester certain elements preferentially and if they happen to be radioactive the radioactive element will be sequestered. When I eat - I try to eat food. But if my food is contaminated with shit, I will be eating shit. But I am not specifically seeking out shit to eat.

I could say with equal claim to accuracy

"Wow. I have developed a shit selection mechanism in lieu of food. Need to publish in Nature before BRF". But it does not solve the problem that I am eating shit only because the food is contaminated. Not because of preference.

The body sequesters Iodine preferentially in the thyroid gland. Potassium Iodide is given to saturate the Thyroid with iodine so that it does not try and grab any radioactive iodine that comes its way. Calcium, Phosphorus and heavy metals tend to get preferentially sequestered particularly in bone. Radioactive Phosphorus has been used in the treatment of some bone marrow disorders because of this and the fact that its radioactivity is short lived.

[GuruPrabhu]

K-40 has half life of ~ 1 Billion years. Stays in body less than 8 hours.

Half-life is not the issue, activity is. One BED is one BED, period.

There are many isotope levels the body does not strictly control. These tend to accumulate. Mercury for one. In our context Strontium & maybe even Caesium.

Sorry, the body *does not* control isotope levels. Body controls chemical levels. You are spreading misinformation and if I get "reported" for calling you on this, so be it.

[Theo_Fidel]

Sorry, the body *does not* control isotope levels. Body controls chemical levels.

Again C-13, D2, etc.

[GuruPrabhu]

No the body does not sequester radioactivity preferentially. I apologise for trying to stop you from making a semantic point ...

You got it. the chemistry stuff is obvious.

[GuruPrabhu]

Sorry, the body *does not* control isotope levels. Body controls chemical levels.

C-13, D2, etc.

eh? explain please? i just stated that the body does not know the difference between D2O and H2O.

to spell it out further, chemistry is controlled by electrons not nucleons. adding or subtratcing a neutron to/from a nucleus does not change chemistry.

[shiv]

Let me come out in support of Theo_Fidel because he is, in my view unable to express the reason why life survives on the planet despite the radioactivity of Potassium 40 and is managing to put foot in mouth trying to explain that.

Potassium is so fundamental to life that all living organisms aeons ago that were dying early due to K40 died out selectively leaving those life forms that by chance developed mechanisms to survive despite the radiation of Pot 40. All current theories of selection and survival work this way and the best argument against this science is creationism. However those surviving living organisms can be selectively damaged by the ingestion of radioactive Isotopes that are not naturally occurring in the environment and sequestered in the body.

The exact level of risk is not clearly known or predictable in the current state of knowledge. Those of us who are in science are doing more bullshitting than we give ourselves credit for. We don't know why girls seem to be growing tits early and suspect it may be plastics. We say hormonal imbalances may cause cancer. We don't know if our plastic eating, tit growing daughters and grand daughters will get more cancers as a result.

We guess and reassure people. In our current state of knowledge we think that the body cannot differentiate isotopes. If research later shows that this is possible then it will only show what we have seen time and again - that "current state of knowledge" is still far from complete. We do not yet understand the sub atomic level interactions that accept or reject certain atoms and molecules.

[sanjaykumar]

Enzymes do in fact discriminate between isotopes, not wholly but the area has not been
comprehensively studied.

[GuruPrabhu]

Potassium is so fundamental to life that all living organisms aeons ago that were dying early due to K40 died out selectively leaving those life forms that by chance developed mechanisms to survive despite the radiation of Pot 40.

of course, this is also pure conjecture just like the tit-story. I doubt that you can present any physical evidence for this claim. But as claims go, this is cool so I will not argue with it.

[Theo_Fidel]

Half-life is not the issue, activity is. One BED is one BED, period.

Not true. Assumption of 1 year exposure made for commonly used Banana value of 0.01 mrem. Should be 1/1000th of that or less.

And despite your claim Half life absolutely matters. Radioactive Iodine is 30 million times more radioactive than K-40. So, much easier to accumulate to dangerous levels.

[GuruPrabhu]

Enzymes do in fact discriminate between isotopes, not wholly but the area has not been comprehensively studied.

A believer in bacterial decomposition of waste? Please point me to a study of this phenomenon of enzymes discriminating between isotopes. I am not challenging it - just want to learn more.

[GuruPrabhu]

Half-life is not the issue, activity is. One BED is one BED, period.

Not true. Assumption of 1 year exposure made for commonly used Banana value of 0.01 mrem. Should be 1/1000th of that or less.

And despite your claim Half life absolutely matters. Radioactive Iodine is 30 million times more radioactive than K-40. So, much easier to accumulate to dangerous levels.

Saar, you win. (but if you get a chance look up activity versus half-life for the fundamental issue of radiation. Activity incorporates half-life already.)

[shiv]

Potassium is so fundamental to life that all living organisms aeons ago that were dying early due to K40 died out selectively leaving those life forms that by chance developed mechanisms to survive despite the radiation of Pot 40.

of course, this is also pure conjecture just like the tit-story. I doubt that you can present any physical evidence for this claim. But as claims go, this is cool so I will not argue with it.

Exactly. Arguing with it will get you more of same. That is all we think we know. It may or may not be correct. You too may or may not be correct. You are correct insofar as your knowledge and biases go. So much for dogma. Sarcasm about publishing in "Nature" lays open the fact that your much admired "Nature" publications may have to do serious downhill skiing as "knowledge" increases.

[GuruPrabhu]

You too may or may not be correct. You are correct insofar as your knowledge and biases go. So much for dogma.

Yes, Saar. I bow to your wisdom. Some folks have an inside track to knowledge and can post whatever they want. Others only represent dogma. Thank you.

[It is not "Nature" that is important but the peer-review process. BRF has no peer-review as such, except the court of jingo-opinion.]

[Theo_Fidel]

Saar, you win. (but if you get a chance look up activity versus half-life for the fundamental issue of radiation. Activity incorporates half-life already.)

I'm multi-tasking for a deadline hence the one liners. Fascinating conversation.

I'm assuming activity means decay rate. Which essentially should give the particles per second? Correct me if I'm wrong. Long time from Dr Laxmi and my Physics class.

The idea is that a speck of Radio-Iodine 1/30 million the size of a banana will produce the same number of particles. In the area around that speck radiation levels will be 1/30 million times that around the banana. Of course it could also be smeared into a volume the size of the banana but the danger exists if concentrated...

Also I'm very certain the body selectively refuses to use Carbon-13 Isotope and prefers C-12. Also Deuterium is toxic at certain levels due to its nuclear properties of weight and bonding strength.

[GuruPrabhu]

I'm assuming activity means decay rate. Which essentially should give the particles per second? Correct me if I'm wrong. Long time from Dr Laxmi and my Physics class.

correct

The idea is that a speck of Radio-Iodine 1/30 million the size of a banana will produce the same number of particles. In the area around that speck radiation levels will be 1/30 million times that around the banana. Of course it could also be smeared into a volume the size of the banana but the danger exists if concentrated...

why is area important? The mean free path of a gamma ray in the body is what is important.

Also Deuterium is toxic at certain levels due to its nuclear properties of weight and bonding strength.

bonding strength to what? if it is chemical bonding it is determined by the solitary electron. The nuclear weight does not enter the picture.

[shiv]

[It is not "Nature" that is important but the peer-review process. BRF has no peer-review as such, except the court of jingo-opinion.]

Absolutely true. So what was the need for the following comment that brings a connection between BRF and "Nature"?

Wow!! The body has developed a radioactivity sequestration mechanism? Have you published this in Nature yet? Patent it fast before someone reads BRF and gets a clue.

[GuruPrabhu]

Absolutely true. So what was the need for the following comment that brings a connection between BRF and "Nature"?

"need" is a funny thing. Ask yourself if you can defend the "need" for every comment you make. In my case, it was a mechanism to highlight the absurdity of the claim. Does that satisfy the "need" police?

[vina]

You have to believe it because your doctor tells you. Your doctor will also tell you that he is taking every possible precaution to stop your "fast duplicating cells" in your bone marrow and intestine from being exposed to radiation. but hey when the intestine or bone marrow is in the path of radiation he uses, he tells you "It's OK. There will be some damage but "we" have to accept that"

Shivji, your post is poignant. One of my class mates was diagnosed with leukemia a couple of months back and he underwent chemo and the prognosis was good.Zero cancer cells after the chemo etc. They were looking for a bone marrow donor /PSBC donor , but just last week, he died from an infection he caught . He leaves behind a wife and 2 children , was just about 40, and in a director level position in an gloabal embedded systems IT/Vity company.

Yeah, think of it. He didn't die from the cancer which was nearly "cured", but because of the side effects of the treatment (which destroyed the bone marrow and left him defenseless against infections)! A sure case of treatment being worst than the cure I suppose. It was a terrible tragedy and brings a lump to my throat as I write about it.

Anyway. OT.

Point is this radiation is serious business. But to scare monger it and push falsehoods and go over the top is another thing altogether! No one knows exactly how one gets leukemia! Could he have got it from the auto exhaust he probably inhaled on his commute to work, well maybe, who knows? That exhaust has more carcinogens (just count the number of vehicles and amount of petroleum fuel burnt in bangalore alone) dumped into the atmosphere than all the nuclear accidents and tests/explosions in human history will ever will, but we dont see that scare on a scale anywhere close to the Nook word even when all of us are breathing known carcinogens this very instant! How many of us are going to stop using our vehicles right now or going to turn off all electrical appliances becuase of carcinogens from burning coal and the radioactive nature of the fly ash?

[shiv]

Absolutely true. So what was the need for the following comment that brings a connection between BRF and "Nature"?

"need" is a funny thing. Ask yourself if you can defend the "need" for every comment you make. In my case, it was a mechanism to highlight the absurdity of the claim. Does that satisfy the "need" police?

Well it satisfies my need to know whether you are actually able to communicate politely or not. Knowing that you are unable to communicate politely is important to me when I decide which parts of your posts I need respond to cause takleef over semantics

Clearly you have confused opinions on BRF with a peer reviewed journal but are unable to say it without making a mess of it. It was fun while it lasted. Thank you for providing me that opportunity. I am out of this particular discussion. Until I find the need to see if I can provoke some other OT reaction from an OT post.

[Sanku]

Wow! They had a history of ignoring problems and not reporting the data.

Ramana-ji; these are exactly the detailed reports I have been posting in a flurry, primarily to make sure some of these articles get archived and linked before they get yanked off in the cover up which will certainly happen.

[chaanakya]

do not have interest or even time to go through that article line by line.

This what scares ordinary people. When contra reports are dismissed on the ground of lack of interest or time just because they find it concluding against technical wisdom where much uncertainty exists.

[GuruPrabhu]

Well it satisfies my need to know whether you are actually able to communicate politely or not.

politeness is a two-way street. I have studied your posts for nearly a decade. Don't pat yourself on the back just yet.

Clearly you have confused opinions on BRF with a peer reviewed journal but are unable to say it without making a mess of it.

Clearly, you were unable to back up your preposterous ideas with a scientific study and are now indulging in piskology to save echendee.

It was fun while it lasted. Thank you for providing me that opportunity. I am out of this particular discussion.

can't say it was fun, but no loss for me to see the last of you.

[Sanku]

do not have interest or even time to go through that article line by line.

This what scares ordinary people. When contra reports are dismissed on the ground of lack of interest or time just because they find it concluding against technical wisdom where much uncertainty exists.

The current behavior reminds me of the situation of Galileo and the Church.

[arnab]

The current behavior reminds me of the situation of Galileo and the Church.

Galileo was referring to DDM to make his point?

[Sanku]

The current behavior reminds me of the situation of Galileo and the Church.

Galileo was referring to DDM to make his point?

DDM stands for Desi Dork Media, so basically you are wrong yet again (how do you manage?) since the reports here are from all over the worlds including Nuclear safety experts from Nuclear fields.

Clutching at straws...

[arnab]

DDM stands for Desi Dork Media, so basically you are wrong yet again (how do you manage?) since the reports here are from all over the worlds including Nuclear safety experts from Nuclear fields.

Clutching at straws...

I know. I did consider using 'DM' but somehow it lacked the zing of DDM I'm sure the DM is referencing 'experts' some of the time (and sometimes even BC types become nuke experts). But the issue is that they are doing it selectively so as to make it newsworthy.

[Sanku]

Boss BC is an expert, no amount of spewing venom at his person is likely to change that.

[arnab]

Boss BC is an expert, no amount of spewing venom at his person is likely to change that.

He is an expert I agree, but not in nuclear science.