2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

[GuruPrabhu]

Boss BC is an expert, no amount of spewing venom at his person is likely to change that.

Saar, just a few pages ago you were making fun of experts.

[Sanku]

Boss BC is an expert, no amount of spewing venom at his person is likely to change that.

He is an expert I agree, but not in nuclear science.

Well guess what, in real world its not physicists to get to be experts in how physics it be be used. The experts needed for use of technology should not be technologist since there is conflict of interest.

He is expert in the field of Nuclear matters, he does not have to peer through an electron microscope to do that.

Also incidentally he has pretty much all of whose who of Indian nuclear establishment (those who are not serving and hence can speak openly) behind is assertions as shown by prior posts.

[Sanku]

Boss BC is an expert, no amount of spewing venom at his person is likely to change that.

Saar, just a few pages ago you were making fun of experts.

No making fun is only for those whose currency of debate is limited to Lalchix and Bananas. I merely mentioned the issue of conflict of interest and the need to look at multiple opinions including those of experts whose views are contrarion to the main stream church (the money making Industrial complex experts)

[arnab]

Well guess what, in real world its not physicists to get to be experts in how physics it be be used. The experts needed for use of technology should not be technologist since there is conflict of interest.

He is expert in the field of Nuclear matters, he does not have to peer through an electron microscope to do that.

Also incidentally he has pretty much all of whose who of Indian nuclear establishment (those who are not serving and hence can speak openly) behind is assertions as shown by prior posts.

Fair enough. But when you need to think about improving and designing safety features in a nuke plant, you need a physicist / engineer (as was the case in Chernobyl). BC can make a point about whether or not nuke agreement with the US make strategic sense. Unfortunately he conflates this with opinions about nuke energy itself not being a good idea because of Tsunami, water requirements etc etc. He should stay in his domain no? Why make absurd assessments about wind energy and nuke energy?

I'm not sure whether he does not have any conflicts of interests in the matter. Afterall, as a reporter he did publish details of operation blue star even though GOI had requested all reporters not to do so. This did precipitate a huge NRI backlash. So one must wonder if he unequivocally bats for India on all occassions.

Your last bit is obviously unsubstantiated. How can a 'horse' and 'grass' be friends? If he is anti nuke power - he is anti DAE, notwithstanding disgruntled elements.

[amit]

Ramana-ji; these are exactly the detailed reports I have been posting in a flurry, primarily to make sure some of these articles get archived and linked before they get yanked off in the cover up which will certainly happen.

Every bit of information related to Fukushima is coming out from the Japanese who have been commended for being so candid. Whether its radiation levels, or the alleged defect in reactor containment vessel which Hitachi suppressed, all reports are of Japanese origin. Yet our friend here is convinced that a cover-up will start soon and only his valiant efforts to archive articles from the likes of Daily Star will preserve the history of Fukushima for the coming generations.

It's a pity that folks sit on judgment over others - which leads to the supreme confidence that the Japanese will undertake a cover-up. Are they so stupid that they couldn't do that from the very beginning if they so wanted to?

Such comments, IMO, show a gross insensitivity to the enormous human tragedy faced by the Japanese. And also negates the wonderful qualities of calmness, humanity and candidness they have shown in facing these tragedies.

Rags which sell on sensationalism will always selectively pick up nuggets of information and blow them up. But it is up to normal intelligent people to be able to shift through that and understand fact from fiction.

I'd rather believe what Yukio Edano says about radiation than what some breathless TV anchor says or some journalist in some newspaper claims.

Who knows, maybe I'll be considered a part of the cover-up team?

[chaanakya]

First pictures emerge of the Fukushima Fifty

The darkness is broken only by the flashing torchlight of the heroes who stayed behind. These first images of inside the stricken Fukushima Dai-Ichi power plant reveal the terrifying conditions under which the brave men work to save their nation from full nuclear meltdown. The Fukushima Fifty - an anonymous band of lower and mid-level managers - have battled around the clock to cool overheating reactors and spent fuel rods since the disaster on March 11.

[amit]

Your last bit is obviously unsubstantiated. How can a 'horse' and 'grass' be friends? If he is anti nuke power - he is anti DAE, notwithstanding disgruntled elements.

Given the flow of his posts in this thread and the Indian nook thread regarding Fukushima, I would like to ask Sanku if he's now also become anti-nuclear?

After all only a soothsayer could say if any reactor (LWR, PHWR etc) would have survived intact the combination of a 9.0-9.1 Richter scale earthquake and 12 meter high tsunami.

[amit]

First pictures emerge of the Fukushima Fifty

Thanks for posting these.

I'd like to point out that these wouldn't have come out if operation cover-up was in progress or was being contemplated.

These videos are not part of a sting operation done by some enterprising or heroic journalist bent finding the truth.

[Sanku]

Why make absurd assessments about wind energy and nuke energy?

Because he has data points from various sources to do that plus enough expertise to put it together. This is how the world works in all cases.

Celebrating silo thinking is very infra-dig btw.

[Sanku]

TEPCO officials speaking on behalf of TEPCO sponsored actions == transparency?

Jai ho.

what parts of

"Independent committee of experts drawn from all over the world working directly under a multi-national command" is so difficult?

[amit]

"Independent committee of experts drawn from all over the world working directly under a multi-national command" is so difficult?

And why exactly can you explain to me should we have an independent committee of experts under a multinational command to look into what is clearly still a localised problem? That is of course assuming that you don't believe what some rags have written about Fukushima radiation surfacing in Iceland. Or it could be you don't trust little Asian to do the right thing and there should be a few Goras sitting in judgment to supervise the clean-up by stupid Japanese.

Beside the problem is still on going and you want this "committee of experts" to sit on judgment already? This is very similar to your comment the other day that they should have used concrete to entomb the reactors the within the first few days itself.

[amit]

TEPCO officials speaking on behalf of TEPCO sponsored actions == transparency?

The radiation reports are being given out by Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary, who is the govt's points man for this crisis. Is he an employee of TEPCO?

Are all these reports of lax measures, insufficient safety measures, faulty reactor vessels etc, all coming out of TEPCO? If they are I must say they are the most open commercial entity in the whole world and really Jai Ho to them

And of course Jai Ho to you too.

[chaanakya]

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201103230214.html

The government has advised people not to eat spinach, broccoli and some other vegetables grown in Fukushima Prefecture after radioactive substances at higher than acceptable levels were detected in samples.

Although the official government view is that consumption of the contaminated vegetables will not lead to immediate health problems, health experts, even within the government, are showing more concern.

Officials attributed the high radiation levels of those vegetables and milk samples to the leak of radioactive substances at the quake-stricken Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant in Fukushima Prefecture.

Prime Minister Naoto Kan on Wednesday instructed Fukushima Governor Yuhei Sato to tell prefectural residents not to consume those vegetables, including komatsuna green leaf, cabbage and cauliflower, for the time being.

Kan also told Fukushima Prefecture to instruct farmers not to ship turnips, as well as the produce whose intake is restricted.

Ibaraki Prefecture was told to refrain from shipping parsley and milk.

The shipment restrictions came on top of those on spinach and kakina leaf grown in Fukushima, Ibaraki, Tochigi and Gunma prefectures and milk in Fukushima Prefecture.

Officials said farm cooperatives had already stopped shipping vegetables grown in open fields in Fukushima Prefecture.

"The vegetables will cause no immediate health problems even if temporarily eaten now," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told a news conference Wednesday.

"But regrettably, this situation is expected to continue for a long time," he said. "So it is desirable, as a precautionary measure, for producers to refrain from shipping them from an early stage and for consumers to eat as little of them as possible."

Edano stressed that eating the vegetables with the highest radiation levels for 10 days will bring the total to only about half of natural radiation exposure for an entire year.

"It will not lead to a radiation amount that will affect the health in the future, not just immediate problems," he said.

But a health ministry official said the same day that the intake restriction was taken because "continuing to eat (the vegetables) could lead to radiation exceeding the permissible yearly level for ordinary citizens."

According to the results of a health ministry survey released early Wednesday, the highest radiation level was detected in a sample of kukitachina green leaf of Motomiya, Fukushima Prefecture, about 60 kilometers from the plant. It showed 82,000 becquerels per kilogram of radioactive cesium, or 164 times the permissible level.

The ministry reported that higher-than-acceptable cesium levels were found in 25 samples from Fukushima Prefecture, including spinach in Tamura, at 80 times the safety limit, shinobu-fuyuna leaf from Kawamata, at 56 times, santosai leaf from Nishigo, at 48 times, and broccoli from Iitate, at 27.8 times.

High levels of radioactive iodine were found in 21 samples, including shinobu-fuyuna from Kawamata, at 11 times the safety limit, and spinach from Tamura, at 9.5 times.

In Ibaraki Prefecture, iodine 5.7 times higher than acceptable levels was discovered in milk in Mito, and iodine 6.0 times higher in parsley grown in greenhouses in Hokota and Namegata.

Children are especially vulnerable to iodine, which can concentrate in the thyroid gland and cause thyroid cancer if taken in large quantities.

The permissible level of iodine exposure is 1 millisievert per year at normal times. But during emergencies, the Nuclear Safety Commission of Japan sets the maximum level for iodine concentrated in the thyroid gland at 50 millisieverts per year.

The levels of iodine in shinobu-fuyuna in Kawamata, at 22,000 Bq per kilogram, correspond to exposure at 7 millisieverts per year for adults, 33 millisieverts for young children and 62 millisieverts for infants.

This means an infant who consumed 800 grams of this vegetable would have already reached the permissible level for a year.
( ouch color....sorry for that) Looks like one doesn't have to consume tonnes of milk and spinach and banana ( sorry sanku couldn't resist) before crossing limits meant for years in few days. Radioactive substance , Besides being accumulative in nature, its half life is less understood and t much maligned concept. I means period withing which it decays to half of its original mass. That means , if you get 10 mg of caesium after 30 years you will be left with 5 mg radioactive caesium unless body finds a way to excrete it . This does not include additional ingestion which may take place due to contamination)
After the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in the former Soviet Union in 1986, many children developed thyroid cancer after drinking iodine-polluted milk for a long time.

"Infants and young children are especially vulnerable to the impact of radioactive substances, compared with adults, because of the active metabolism in their bodies as they grow up," said Masamichi Nishio, director of the Hokkaido Cancer Center and a specialist of radiology. "Those 40 years or older do not have to worry about thyroid cancer because their metabolism is slow."

Meanwhile, cesium in kukitachina from Motomiya was measured at 82,000 Bq per kilogram, corresponding to radiation exposure at 1.31 millisieverts per year.

That means intake of 3.8 kilograms of the leafy vegetable would exceed the annual limit of 5 millisieverts set by the Nuclear Safety Commission.

Much of the cesium taken into the body is discharged, but it has a long half-life period of two to 30 years.

Did some one say Risk vs benefit and the informed consent for acceptable risk determined and willingness to take that risk to avail the benefit. Some important elements are missing in Radiation business.

[amit]

^^^^^

Don't necessarily agree with the points made by Chaanakya here. But I'll let that pass for now since I'm rushing for time.

However I do like to point out that none of these details have come out of TEPCO, which leaves the following postulate hanging in the netherworld, where the sun never shines.

TEPCO officials speaking on behalf of TEPCO sponsored actions == transparency?

[Lalmohan]

No making fun is only for those whose currency of debate is limited to Lalchix and Bananas. I merely mentioned the issue of conflict of interest and the need to look at multiple opinions including those of experts whose views are contrarion to the main stream church (the money making Industrial complex experts)

or its used as a means to diffuse the matter if one party thinks the other is not actually debating from a clear point of view but is thoroughly muddying the waters. forum rules sometimes prevent us from being forthright

[Sanku]

No making fun is only for those whose currency of debate is limited to Lalchix and Bananas. I merely mentioned the issue of conflict of interest and the need to look at multiple opinions including those of experts whose views are contrarion to the main stream church (the money making Industrial complex experts)

or its used as a means to diffuse the matter if one party thinks the other is not actually debating from a clear point of view but is thoroughly muddying the waters. forum rules sometimes prevent us from being forthright

Well you should leave that task to the moderators then. Also if you think anyone is muddying the waters you should just post counter facts.

Dont see where the banana's come in.

[somnath]

Did some one say Risk vs benefit and the informed consent for acceptable risk determined and willingness to take that risk to avail the benefit. Some important elements are missing in Radiation business

Chanaakya-ji, a couple of points..

1. The concept of "acceptable" risks in this case is a big HUGE red herring...The way you are looking at it seems to be as if these risks are "inherent" to nuke power plants...Fact is that these data (and I will come to it in the next point) are a result of a debilitating double whammy natural disaster - a black swan scale at that...Would release of MIC in Bhopal in the air constitute "acceptable risk"? No, right? But we havent gone ahead and closed every chemical plant in India, and indeed the world? Studies apparently show lasting effects of the disaster on health and environment even today..So lets not confuse the fallout of an accident with "acceptable risk norms"...

As to BAU scenarios, I think enough material has been posted here by various people to show how almost all energy sources have their issues, some more than nuclear power...

2. The doomsday data being quoted by the media...First, governments in these situations would always be cautious, and take an extreme conservative view...Two, the media would be looking for the "worst" data points -thats what sells...Therefore to conclude right now on the merits of nuke power or otherwise (or even more bizarrely, which I dont think you do, to announce that LWRs are riskier than PHWRs) based on running data now makes no sense...A few months later, when the crisis has blown away, there is sure to be extensive analysis of the data to find out what happened, what was dangerous and what wasnt..It will continue for decades...Till then, whats the point in arriving at definitive conclusions?

[Pratyush]

First pictures emerge of the Fukushima Fifty

Thanks for posting these.

I'd like to point out that these wouldn't have come out if operation cover-up was in progress or was being contemplated.

These videos are not part of a sting operation done by some enterprising or heroic journalist bent finding the truth.

Arnt you aware that thing should be hidden in plane sight. This is a perfect example of coverup by the Japanies govt.

[somnath]

This is what the US EPA says about the so-called massive radiation leakage all the way upto the US coast!

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Resourc ... 300885635/

The radiation levels detected on the filters from California and Washington monitors are hundreds of thousands to millions of times below levels of concern," the agency said in a statement

[Sanku]

http://www.sify.com/news/japan-nuke-dis ... dccaf.html

Japan nuke disaster affects search for missing in Fukushima

Self-Defense Forces personnel said it was possible that bodies had been left behind, as they faced difficulty in entering the area under evacuation orders because of crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

Would it be safe to say that the number of people who could not be reached in time due to evacuation orders are essentially victims of Nuclear disaster?

[Lalmohan]

no, they are victims of nuclear hysteria

[Sanku]

no, they are victims of nuclear hysteria

I see so according to you the Japanese govt got hysterical without a reason in implementing the exclusion zone. No doubt Bramha Chellany's article shook them up and made them error prone in their jitterness.

[amit]

I have to repeat what I said before. Posts such as the ones above show crass insensitivity to the humanitarian tragedy we are witnessing in Japan.

The tragedy that prevents rescurers to collect dead bodies due to the tsunami becomes another issue to score debating points.

Jeez...

[chaanakya]

Acceptable risk vs benefits is a valid point .
Govt has done right thing in being conservative in this matter. Don't want to leave things to pronouncement of few experts an some "Valid Data points"

Media may be looking for sells but the statement itself points to existence of "worst data points"

Radiation is indeed dangerous that is why there is safe limits imposed legally. Did you see anywhere having safe limit imposed on how much rice one should take? ( nice change from banana)

Black swan scenario ( nice terminology at that) is infinitely unlikely to happen but then it happened.
And conclusion is still out on the damages and extent.


You are right , I have no idea about safety of nuclear reactors in the debate between LWR vs PHWR, though I can educate myself. I found Ravi Karumanchiri's comment in another thread very apt. I have not checked up if someone has countered his point. But again we have both point and counterpoint.

I admit again that you are right when you say "what is the point in arriving at definitive conclusions". Same holds for for others telling that radiation is good because we eat banana.

[mahen]

My First Post: Hello

Thanks for a very informative discussion. Learnt a few things here. Some points i would like to make and queries to put in:

I was on board a ship of Japan's NE coast around 200 km from the epicenter. Personally did'nt feel a thing because Tsunami wavelength at deep sea is several kms, rising in amplitude only near the rising continental shelf. Few hours on i was coasting between Hokkaido and Honshu's north, so was not affected a bit.

Radiation levels in the air are pretty much low and there's been more scare IMO than there should be. Primarlily due to lack of understanding on radiation levels, nuclear plant construction/ workings, risk analysis etc. But all coverage is centered around for safety of people living onshore and not on millions that live off shore for a living. As an Engineer myself i do understand the chances of the containment being breached are low, however i understand they've been using sea water to directly cool the fuel rods. Thus the highly radioactive elements would have passed on to the sea water which in turn has been pumped into the Pacific..(?) as i understand.

That sea water is used on board our ships for coolers, generating Fresh water through reverse osmosis etc including mundane activity like cleaning weather decks etc. As we intend our voyage from China presently to the US to pass through these areas..what possibly are the risks associated with the use of such water on board a ship at sea? Would like opinions on that.

There's also a radioactive cloud i see from the NY Times graph chart all over off the Kuril, Bering Sea right upto the US (the route i'll be taking next couple of weeks). Any hazards or precautions that could be taken by those on board?

Thanks.

[Amber G.]

Amber et al -- with all due respects...
<snip>
This is going to far far worse before it gets better.

Sir, You may be right that "things may get far far worse", (particularly about quality of brf discussion), but I did notice that at this time you did not grossly misquoted, or edited/interpreted like you did the last time. For that I am glad. But let me, for the sake of accuracy cut and paste one of your previous post which you posted.

when posts like this start coming ...<snip>

And yes Russian experts are Zaid Hamid (the fact that he works for Austrian govt now as their expert probably missed totally) he has to be how can he be not? After all only GE experts on this are to be believed.

Pathetic is the word that comes to mind

No wonder call for people to be "torn apart" (exact words!) were issued.

Folks, let me state clearly; I do not and did not diss Russian experts. I have been hosted by Russian Scientists, have hosted them and have a very high regard for them. Will not name drop, but some source of the information about Chernobyl was a physicist I know.. I don't know about 'Austrian govt' but the guy lived in Russia, (and later on) won Nobel Prize and I certainly thought he knew what he was talking. The Zaid Hamid comment was about the 'expert' whose Austrian govt connection I missed. I stand by that comment I made about silliness of the said expert.

I also noticed, Sanku obfuscation, for the simple question I asked which raised his fury. (How many deaths have taken place so far due to radiation?).

I have also noticed, one liners like "Banana spin" and " banana- nonsense".

I am glad that this time (the message I am replying to) has many lines, but after trying to read his analysis since he has graciously described, what I took time to write, and write it in clear terms, as 'pathetic' 'spin' and 'nonsense' let me return the compliment. I think some may have missed my point but Sankuji's analysis of my "flawed argument" was brilliant and scientific... I have not seen brilliance since that paper on Jinn Thermodynamics.

For those who like, please read, reread my earlier posts (I tried to write it clearly) or other sources .. and not to be afraid to learn new things. I will post some more. I am sure it will not help everyone but I do hope that it will be helpful to some

[Amber G.]

Those who are issuing fatawa's against "Banana nonsense", IMO, are missing two important points:

1. Simple math is important:

2 banana + 2 banana = 4 banana also means it is not a nonsense to question some one if some one tells of 2 apples + 2 apples = 500 apples.. just because an apple is not a banana!

What is relevant here:
2 rem + 2 rem is 4 rem and is NOT 500 rem

And what is REALLY need to be understood.

A radiation dose of 500 rem, will likely (more than 50% chance that you will die, if not treated, within 60 days) kill you.

While a dose of 4 rem - No one knows but There is NO measurable effect (on provable increase risk). (Cancer risk from smoking, or >100 rem exposures are much better understood)

Since no one knows, we side with caution. We don't take x-rays, if we don't have to.. but
avoiding x-ray because you are scared of nuke bomb is not healthy.

2. Understand that "EM" of "REM" stands for "equivalent (in) men"


Yes sodium in banana is different than Tc from NPP .. the energies (not to mention type) of radiation is different but we are not talking of taste of banana we are talking about the radiation effects in human body
Since different radiation damage human body differently, scientists use rem (vs rad - raw radiation) so that (with complicated formula between rad and rem) one can measure
"how damage it will due to human body"

IOW when one says 1 Rem (from Banana) is same as 1 Rem (from Cs) what one means

The radiation danger (in human body) from them is same.


(As I have been VERY careful in my previous posts... I posted the radiation in Banana is from K40 -- AND is .01 mRem)

So while banana is not the same as NPP, and K is not the same as Tc -- we were taking about radiation danger..
bed is just a unit of radiation not the kind of banana

Hope this helps.

[mahen]

Another query: As i understand (very basic) the fuel rod is encased in a zircanium alloy coating. The cooling is done by de-mineralized water in a closed loop circuit that is cooled by Sea water. The sea water is treated and then discharged. I might be wrong here but the 'impression' i have gathered is that demineralized water has evaporated and the primary and secondary coolant used has been sea water. I have no report if the sea water used for cooling (tons of it per minute?) has been treated during the emergency. As i am not aware of the workings of the BWR the above might be pure speculation and misreading. If anyone has an idea please do share. Becasue if SW is in contact with the neutron transparent alloy coating it must be highly radioactive. If it has been pumped out without treatment it will be a cause of worry for ships transiting off that area.

[Amber G.]

On the side note APS meeting - Have had dinner with Japanese physicist. Virtually no talk about NPP.. ( Other aspects of Earthquake/Tsunami much bigger concerns).. There was a session on "Mass destruction..." like in many other meetings..

[Lalmohan]

mahen - the radioactive material concentration is expected to be broken up quickly by the ocean, however, it appears that most of the radioactive material has been escaping as steam into the air and not into the ocean (i stand to be corrected)

[Amber G.]

Sanku and Theo, No one is advocating complaceny (sitting on our haunches waiting for tsunami). What we are saying is not to lose prespective. Hence the banana, milk, spinach etc.

....

No only not to lose perspective, but not to be afraid to learn and be educated..
Bharat Bharti talked about why Bharat declined .. because lack of respect for knowledge..

"Sriman Siksha de unhe to Shrimati Kahati yahee"
"Ghero na lalla ko, Hamre Naukari Karnee nahi"
"Sikshe tumara naash ho, tu Naukuri ke hit bani"
"Le Murkhate Jivaat rahe, rakshak tumhare he dhani"

(Don't bother our children with education...education is just to get meager living..down with knowledge .. long live ignorance! (Rich and powerful people are rakshaks of ignorance))

Don't bother us with facts... Scientists don't know anything....

/SIGH/!!!!

[Amber G.]

. Watch for bone cancers to increase dramatically in Northern Japan for the next 500 years or so.

Well this is what UNSCEAR has to say after a 20 year study of the Chernobyl incident

http://www.unscear.org/unscear/en/chernobyl.html

Notwithstanding the influence of enhanced screening regimes, many of those cancers were most likely caused by radiation exposures shortly after the accident. Apart from this increase, there is no evidence of a major public health impact attributable to radiation exposure two decades after the accident. There is no scientific evidence of increases in overall cancer incidence or mortality rates or in rates of non-malignant disorders that could be related to radiation exposure. The incidence of leukaemia in the general population, one of the main concerns owing to the shorter time expected between exposure and its occurrence compared with solid cancers, does not appear to be elevated. Although those most highly exposed individuals are at an increased risk of radiation-associated effects, the great majority of the population is not likely to experience serious health consequences as a result of radiation from the Chernobyl accident.

**

Conclusions
The accident at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant in 1986 was a tragic event for its victims, and those most affected suffered major hardship. Some of the people who dealt with the emergency lost their lives. Although those exposed as children and the emergency and recovery workers are at increased risk of radiation-induced effects, the vast majority of the population need not live in fear of serious health consequences due to the radiation from the Chernobyl accident. For the most part, they were exposed to radiation levels comparable to or a few times higher than annual levels of natural background, and future exposures continue to slowly diminish as the radionuclides decay. Lives have been seriously disrupted by the Chernobyl accident, but from the radiological point of view, generally positive prospects for the future health of most individuals should prevail.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks .. For some doesn't matter what UNSCEAR says /sigh/
100,000 deaths , 850,000 deaths ... 57 deaths ... whom to believe /sigh/

But can one seriously take 850,000 deaths ? seriously????

/SIGH/

[mahen]

mahen - the radioactive material concentration is expected to be broken up quickly by the ocean, however, it appears that most of the radioactive material has been escaping as steam into the air and not into the ocean (i stand to be corrected)

This is what i want to know more about. Whether the radiation seeping into the atmosphere has been more or whats been absorbed by water. Assuming it has been untreated sea water (highly rich in minerals) that has been absorbing the decay heat from the fuel rods all along the emergency. I thought they used de-mineralized water as primary coolant specifically for the purpose to reduce radiation due to minerals being present in 'normal' water. I stand to be corrected in all the assumptions. Many ship board systems too use demineralized water as primary coolant and sw as secondary coolant. There are emergency provisions for cooling with sw if the primary option fails. So i might be drawing wrong analogies here as far as BWRs go..but if sw has been used as a primary coolant and a secondary coolant, it should be contaminated to quite a degree. Possibly more than vented hydrogen carries through to the atmosphere (?)

[Amber G.]

Another query: As i understand (very basic) the fuel rod is encased in a zircanium alloy coating. The cooling is done by de-mineralized water in a closed loop circuit that is cooled by Sea water. The sea water is treated and then discharged. I might be wrong here but the 'impression' i have gathered is that demineralized water has evaporated and the primary and secondary coolant used has been sea water. I have no report if the sea water used for cooling (tons of it per minute?) has been treated during the emergency. As i am not aware of the workings of the BWR the above might be pure speculation and misreading. If anyone has an idea please do share. Becasue if SW is in contact with the neutron transparent alloy coating it must be highly radioactive. If it has been pumped out without treatment it will be a cause of worry for ships transiting off that area.

Have not all the posts.. sorry to be brief..
(From what I know)
- Cleaning up the water (Removing radioactive Cs etc.. really bad stuff like U, fortunately does not dissolve in huge quantity..) will take years (5, 10 or even more) (normal routine process) but it is not health concern... (water is not discharged, it will be treated etc but not right away)
- Venting less problem (Most gases, short half life)
- Some (Cs, etc) has leaked in sea water ..

IAEA site or MIT site have good information. If questions are specific, and I know the answer I will take a stab at it.

[Lalmohan]

the IAEA announced today that measurements are being taken at sea, please check their site. it mentioned low readings at the plant outlet, and now the japanese government will start taking more systematic measurements further out to sea
sea water has been injected into the reactors, i have not read anything that says it is being circulated - clearly with the pumps out of action, nothing is being circulated. therefore leakages apart, most of the water is inside the reactors and/or pools and is evaporating where it can

[Amber G.]

We just do not know how many people died in Nuke related incident, or will die..

I don't know who is "we" here.. If you read the source Chaanayka gave one KNOWS that the number is 850,000 due to one accident alone.
For TMI I have heard all sort of numbers...Official numbers are 0.

Tepco web site has this:

Two Tepco employees have minor injuries.
Two contractors were injured when the quake struck and were taken to hospital, one suffering two broken legs.
A Tepco worker was taken to hospital after collapsing and experiencing chest pains.
A subcontract worker at an "important earthquake-proof building" was found unconscious and was taken to hospital.
Two Tepco workers felt ill whilst working in the control rooms of Fukushima Daiichi units 1 and 2 and were taken to the medical centre at Fukushima Daini.
Four workers were injured in the hydrogen explosion at Fukushima Daiichi 1. They were all taken to hospital.
Eleven workers (four Tepco workers, three subcontract workers and four members of Self Defence Force) were hurt following a similar explosion at Fukushima Daiichi 3. They were transferred to the Fukushima Daini plant. One of the Tepco employees, complaining of pain in his side, was later transferred to hospital.
The whereabouts of two Tepco workers, who had been in the turbine building of Fukushima Daiichi unit 4, is unknown.
Only one casualty has been reported at the Fukushima Daini plant. A worker in the crane operating console of the exhaust stack was seriously injured when the earthquake struck. He subsequently died.

[mahen]

Cleaning up the water (Removing radioactive Cs etc.. really bad stuff like U, fortunately does not dissolve in huge quantity..) will take years (5, 10 or even more) (normal routine process) but it is not health concern... (water is not discharged, it will be treated etc but not right away)

Amber Sir-whether the water is being treated i am unsure of. Thats why i was more concerned about contamination due to water or rather minerals in the water (sw in this incident) getting contaminated..as i assume pure water is neutron 'transparent'. Why i am not sure it's being treated is that tonnes of water is required per minute to cool the overheating rods. I might have read wrong, but it's within some containment (the 2nd or 3rd that got blown off) that the treatment chamber is in. I have seen no reports that the treatment system is intact (may have missed out also). But as i read (or misread) cooling requirement is several tonnes per minute and this emergency has lasted 10 days, then there would be a very large amount of water to be treated. From the reports and media hysteria it seems people were focussing more on the atmospheric part of contamination.

[mahen]

the IAEA announced today that measurements are being taken at sea, please check their site. it mentioned low readings at the plant outlet, and now the japanese government will start taking more systematic measurements further out to sea
sea water has been injected into the reactors, i have not read anything that says it is being circulated - clearly with the pumps out of action, nothing is being circulated. therefore leakages apart, most of the water is inside the reactors and/or pools and is evaporating where it can

Thanks, will check on the IAEA site. Any specific links will also be appreciated. If the above is true it seems that the treatment units are intact and have worked well despite the double whammy of EQ and the Tsunami.

[Amber G.]

Well this is what UNSCEAR has to say after a 20 year study of the Chernobyl incident

Well, in that case I suggest you move to Chernobyl and take possession of a 1000 Sq Km's of land. That has to be the ultimate test, did the report convince you enough to move there.
Talk is cheap.

I don't plan to move to Chernobyl (I still has some responsibilities due to my work where I live but I have visited a NM site where radiation rate is comparable to that Chernobyl site...I have close relative who has had radiation treatment (doses much..much..much higher).. have had Tc scan from Tc which came from a nuclear reactor.

And no, I don't believe that 850,000 deaths in Chernobyl either. /smile/

[Amber G.]

Cleaning up the water (Removing radioactive Cs etc.. really bad stuff like U, fortunately does not dissolve in huge quantity..) will take years (5, 10 or even more) (normal routine process) but it is not health concern... (water is not discharged, it will be treated etc but not right away)

Amber Sir-whether the water is being treated i am unsure of. Thats why i was more concerned about contamination due to water or rather minerals in the water (sw in this incident) getting contaminated..as i assume pure water is neutron 'transparent'. Why i am not sure it's being treated is that tonnes of water is required per minute to cool the overheating rods. I might have read wrong, but it's within some containment (the 2nd or 3rd that got blown off) that the treatment chamber is in. I have seen no reports that the treatment system is intact (may have missed out also). But as i read (or misread) cooling requirement is several tonnes per minute and this emergency has lasted 10 days, then there would be a very large amount of water to be treated. From the reports and media hysteria it seems people were focussing more on the atmospheric part of contamination.

Mahen - I don't know what you mean by neutron transparent.. (pure water slows neutron.. act as a moderator.. see water is 90+% water anyway..)
Water is mixed with Boron (Shipments of tons of boron is being rushed from different places) just in case...

For cooling water for Spent fuel rods and core is different quantities.. for spent fuel pool the water needed is of the order of thousands of tons!

Water treatment, and other cleanup is very long term process .. TMI it took about 20 years..very costly too... but very little health danger. Contrary to media reports the scientists and NPP workers do know their job..