Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 2010)

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somnath
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

^^^IMO the point on access to capital is pertinent...It is a fact that risk capital is a scarce commodity in India, less scarce today than was the case 20 years ago, but scarce still..As a result, businesses that need large upfront capital commitments are typically dominated either by existing business groups or crooks :twisted: ....Businesses that require comparatively less capital upfront are more conducive for start-ups..Which is why IT/Biotech etc have so many of them..

The key difference that emerges between Indian business groups and (say) US PE funds is IMO singular - brand...The Indian family businesses have built up brandnames that have household appeal..therefore new businesses, even when they are in unrelated areas, use the same brand...For example, the Cholamndalam brand of the AB Subbiah group...the individual companies are all run by professionals, but most companies use the Chola brand...Ditto for the Tatas...In fact barring Ratan Tata (and to a limited extent Noel Tata), there is no one from the "family" there...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

From twitter
http://twitter.com/#!/yvessmith
Sleaze Watch: NY Fed Official Responsible for AIG Loans Joins AIG As AIG Pushes Sweetheart Repurchase to NY Fed http://bit.ly/gL4pBe
And this ain't the first such instance either. Have posted umpteen times on the revolving door nexus between wall st, the federalized banking cartel, regulators, lobbyists and the executive branch of govt. Here's one examplef from '09:SEC Names Goldman’s Storch as Enforcement Unit Operations Chief
Oct. 16(Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission named Adam Storch, a 29-year-old from Goldman Sachs Group Inc.’s business intelligence unit, as the enforcement division’s first chief operating officer.

Storch, who joined the SEC Oct. 13, was named to the newly created post of managing executive in the enforcement unit, charged with making the division more efficient, the SEC said today in a statement. At New York-based Goldman Sachs, he had worked since 2004 in a unit at that reviewed contracts and transactions for signs of fraud.
William Buiter used to call it 'regulatory capture' until the events following sept 2008 forced him to reassess the situation to 'state capture' [by the financial establishment]. BTW, here's an interesting titbit about sri Buiter himself:
In November 2009, Buiter joined Citigroup as Chief Economist, replacing Lewis Alexander who vacated the position to work with the United States Treasury eight months prior. In an April 2009 blog post, Buiter described Citigroup as "a conglomeration of worst practice from across the financial spectrum"
And so on.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Arjun wrote:Also - any statistics on % of households where neither partner is earning? There may be a need for some resetting of expectations regarding having a double income for all families.
Will have to dig around. What we do know now is that 1 in 7 Americans rely on food stamps today (WSJ).
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by paramu »

Hari Seldon wrote:From twitter
http://twitter.com/#!/yvessmith
Sleaze Watch: NY Fed Official Responsible for AIG Loans Joins AIG As AIG Pushes Sweetheart Repurchase to NY Fed http://bit.ly/gL4pBe
And this ain't the first such instance either. Have posted umpteen times on the revolving door nexus between wall st, the federalized banking cartel, regulators, lobbyists and the executive branch of govt.
...and we have people who shout loudly that the solution to current problems is more regulations.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

paramu wrote:...and we have people who shout loudly that the solution to current problems is more regulations.
Err, why throw the baby out with the bathwater, eh? It's not as if regulation per se hasn't worked at all anywhere or anything like that.

The problem is this cozy system with ghar jamais from the TFTA TBTF banks embedding themselves in regulatory agencies and vice versa.

No wonder that our very own ex-CEC sri Gopalaswami proposed at least a 2 year moratorium on retired gubmint servants working in the private sector the day after retirement only. Conflict of interest referred to ain't trivial in such cases only.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

^^^That moratorium is already in place...For any public servant to work before the 2 year moratorium, a special dispensation needs to be approved by the govt...Obvsiouly, for the "chosen" few, these dispensations are given!

There is a lot of merit is having a seamless throughput of talent across pvt sector, academia and the govt...It keeps the entities fresh, and new ideas can come in...The attendant conflicts of interest issues are also very pertinent, and need to be tackled through strong institutional mechnisms..
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

paramu wrote:...and we have people who shout loudly that the solution to current problems is more regulations.
Its always going to be a continual battle of wits between regulators and those who seek to go around the regulations.

This is analogous to the situation between virus creators and the anti-virus makers in technology...Do you think that race is EVER going to come to an end? Or would you rather propose that the computer industry be disbanded ?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

somnath wrote:The key difference that emerges between Indian business groups and (say) US PE funds is IMO singular - brand...The Indian family businesses have built up brandnames that have household appeal..therefore new businesses, even when they are in unrelated areas, use the same brand...For example, the Cholamndalam brand of the AB Subbiah group...the individual companies are all run by professionals, but most companies use the Chola brand...Ditto for the Tatas...In fact barring Ratan Tata (and to a limited extent Noel Tata), there is no one from the "family" there...
Yes, but I do think it would be healthier if over a period of time - like in the US, the firm identity gets delinked from the group identity. This will probably start happening more and more, as groups start exiting businesses as well - as much as starting them. The firm's ownership may shift from one group to another or to a PE, which is why its identity needs to remain distinct from the original shareholders / family which might have set it up.

Also while the list of business families and billionaires in India has changed quite significantly from the 80s or 90s - and a fair amount of new blood has come in - it would be beneficial for the country for the percentage of new blood to be much higher.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

If people haven't figured out why silver prices are going up, please watch this video.

Apple Inc. Vs. Physical Silver:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Abhijeet »

Arjun wrote:You have to distinguish between firms and shareholders of the firms. In the case of two firms that are owned either fully or partially by the same set of shareholders- as long as their CEOs and organization structures below the CEO do not overlap, and they are separate legal entities - absolutely they are separate firms! The board of directors may be the same - but that is in the realm of the shareholding of the company.
This seems like a rather fine difference, and I honestly don't think that even you would believe that. Take a look at the businesses under the Reliance ADA group: http://www.relianceadagroup.com/ada/index.html. They span quite a range: from financial services, to cell phone providers, to electricity generation, to healthcare, to DTH connections. Do you honestly believe that all these are separate companies that Anil Ambani just happens to have invested in? Or are they companies that have been conceived, started and run by the Reliance monolith?

There are obviously examples in the US as well: Berkshire Hathaway and GE are two of the biggest, and Philip Morris is another. The difference is in whether these diversified conglomerates are exceptions like in the US, or the norm like in India.

If you honestly believe that the Indian business houses are like VC/PE firms, I'm not sure what would convince you otherwise.
But lets take the case of retail - which has only recently opened up to big houses in India. Who's setting up the large retail chains in India ? Its Reliance, Tata, Birla, Goenka...
As I mentioned, this is happening in India precisely because of lack of risk capital.
My contention is that if a traditional sector such as retail were to be suddenly opened up in the US without any existing dominant players (ie no Walmart, Sears etc) - you would find existing billionaires from other industries setting up retail firms and putting in the required capital for expansion.
This is hypothetical. Can you provide an example of a rich country whose economy is dominated by large family-owned conglomerates? This is a genuine question, I'd like to know if your belief has any empirical basis.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

http://www.businessinsider.com/book-exc ... rse-2011-3

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Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/book-exc ... z1HRt80Muv
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

Abhijeet wrote:If you honestly believe that the Indian business houses are like VC/PE firms, I'm not sure what would convince you otherwise
Its not there yet, but thats exactly what is happening...Look at the biggest daddy of all Indian families - Tatas...The search is on for Ratan Tata's replacement, and chances are it will be a non-family guy...I have quoted the AB Subbiah group earlier...
Abhijeet wrote:This is hypothetical. Can you provide an example of a rich country whose economy is dominated by large family-owned conglomerates? This is a genuine question, I'd like to know if your belief has any empirical basis
Lots! Korea is dominated by he family-owned chaebols - and they are conglomerates...The Japanese companies are substantiall family-controlled...The largest companies in HK are family owned conglomerates(Li Ka Shing :wink: )...Its an Asian trait really...BTW, even in the US, some of the largest companies are family-owned - Walmart, Ford, Cargill....It is said 40-50% of the US Forbes big companies list is family-owned..
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by paramu »

Arjun wrote:
paramu wrote:...and we have people who shout loudly that the solution to current problems is more regulations.
Its always going to be a continual battle of wits between regulators and those who seek to go around the regulations.
Nope. When the people who demand more regulations do not demand prosecution of those who violated existing weak regulations, their demand becomes bogus. I don't see demand for prosecution from the people who demand more regulations.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Suraj »

Family owned cos in industrialized nations:
Korea: Samsung, LG, Hyundai
Germany: BMW, Bosch, Porsche, Aldi, Bertelsmann, ThyssenKrupp

In addition, these countries exhibit cross holdings or relationships among major companies and even organization, e.g. Porsche and Volkswagen, the Thyssen heiress being the Aga Khan's spouse, etc. While they may not dominate the economic landscape so openly in the way the Ambanis et al do, there still remain vast 'old money' ties between major corporations and entities in the US, Europe and the NIEs of Asia.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

Abhijeet wrote:This seems like a rather fine difference, and I honestly don't think that even you would believe that. Take a look at the businesses under the Reliance ADA group: http://www.relianceadagroup.com/ada/index.html. They span quite a range: from financial services, to cell phone providers, to electricity generation, to healthcare, to DTH connections. Do you honestly believe that all these are separate companies that Anil Ambani just happens to have invested in? Or are they companies that have been conceived, started and run by the Reliance monolith?
Reliance ADA is a mix of acquisitions and buildout:

- Reliance Entertainment was built largely through acquisitions (They acquired Adlabs and rebranded it as Reliance Entertainment. Anil was also looking to acquire MGM last year, and you probably know about his investment deal with Spielberg for producing Hollywood movies)
- Reliance Capital is largely built out from scratch, with some parts acquired (Quant Capital - institutional broking piece and several exchanges in India and overseas)
- Reliance Mobile is largely built from scratch. However Reliance Global Communications firm is a rollup of 4 different overseas acquisitions: Flag telecom, Yipes, Vanco Group & eWave.
- Reliance Infrastructure was acquired. It used to be known earlier as BSES (Bombay Suburban Electric Supply)
- Reliance Power has been setup greenfield

What difference do you see between Reliance ADA and Carl Icahn's group where he has a majority stake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Icahn)?

The only two differences are that ICahn does not brand his firms under a common brand identity, and secondly it is true that in looking at buy vs build, Anil Ambani has built somewhat more and Icahn has bought more...but these are just differences of degree. If you look at the Hinduja group for example - it has been 100% built on acquisitions.
This is hypothetical. Can you provide an example of a rich country whose economy is dominated by large family-owned conglomerates? This is a genuine question, I'd like to know if your belief has any empirical basis.
There are a number of issues with your question...

- Who do you define as a conglomerate? GMR, GVK, Apollo Hospitals - are these conglomerates ? Are you suggesting that any promoter with shareholding in more than one firm would be defined as a conglomerate ? Not sure what your benchmark is.

- Depending on your benchmark for conglomerate, what makes you think that the Indian economy is dominated by them? Getting the largest 500 firms in India (by revenue or market cap) is easy - how many of them would you define as being conglomerates?

- Shareholding of firms in the US as in any other country has to be dominated by the top billionaires. In some cases they are investing directly (like Carl Icahn - for some reason you are not calling it a conglomerate then) and in most other cases they are investing through an intermediary vehicle known as a Private Equity fund. Just the fact that they are investing through a PE fund rather than directly is not really a fundamental difference.
Last edited by Arjun on 24 Mar 2011 09:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

paramu wrote:When the people who demand more regulations do not demand prosecution of those who violated existing weak regulations, their demand becomes bogus. I don't see demand for prosecution from the people who demand more regulations.
Nobody here is against prosecution...strongly for it. Question is why is the prosecution not happening - is it (a) current laws are enough but either government or private stakeholders are refusing to act or (b) current laws are NOT enough for prosecution and they need to be upgraded. My personal opinion - it is more of (b).
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Arjun wrote:Nobody here is against prosecution...strongly for it. Question is why is the prosecution not happening - is it (a) current laws are enough but either government or private stakeholders are refusing to act or (b) current laws are NOT enough for prosecution and they need to be upgraded. My personal opinion - it is more of (b).
IMHO, its vastly more (a) than (b). Vastly so.

One example from the one successful prosecution for financial fraud we have had in recent times - the Madoff scam - itself reveals the intent and extent of regulatory turpitude in the infamous Harry Markopolis case. Here's some background Madoff whistle-blower: ‘No One Would Listen’

The less said about systematic and widespread fraud in the liar loans, ARMs and other madness that enveloped retail sales of mortgages to people with neither willingness nor ability to repay, the deliberate repackaging and securitization of such deadbeat loan 'assets' into CDOs etc etc is the story of enormous fraud going essentially unpunished and unreformed. Nothing has changed.

Here're are a list of links from just one site - naked capitalism - among many that are systematically chronicling the very profitable and apparently riskless financial fraud business:
Rule of Law Versus Bank Profits: Mortgage Fraud Edition
In the last two years, local attorneys working for the small minority of borrowers who contest foreclosures have reported a wide range of what in spin doctor land would be called irregularities. These reports were so widespread and consistent as to suggest that malfeasance was endemic, but without corroborating evidence that these abuses were happening on an institutionalized basis, it was easy to dismiss them as anecdotal.

The admission by GMAC that it produced improper affidavits, followed by suspension of foreclosures by GMAC, Chase, and Bank of America in 23 judicial foreclosures states, is the tip of the iceberg of widespread foreclosure abuses. Yet comparatively few members of the media have asked the right question: why would servicers and law firms engage in fraudulent activity on such a widespread basis?
Well, one reason is that they could get away with it or so they figured and it seems, they weren't that far off the mark. So far. Further:
The ugly answer is that just as the front end of the mortgage securitization pipeline broke down, with originators increasingly simply pumping any deal through in the interest of pulling out fees, the same behavior spread to the back end.
Banks Enabling Fraud Against Retail Customers

NY Fed Under Geithner Implicated in Lehman Accounting Fraud Allegation
... stunned and frustrated at the refusal to investigate what was almost certain accounting fraud at Lehman. ... a newly-released examiner’s report by Anton Valukas in connection with the Lehman bankruptcy makes clear. The unraveling isn’t merely implicating Fuld and his recent succession of CFOs, or its accounting firm, Ernst & Young, as might be expected. It also emerges that the NY Fed, and thus Timothy Geithner, were at a minimum massively derelict in the performance of their duties, and may well be culpable in aiding and abetting Lehman in accounting fraud and Sarbox violations.
And so on and on.

And no, taking a few names like Martha Stewart and Ken Lay doesn't cut it. A swallow doesn't a summer make, or some such thing. There are massive conflicts of interest in taking action against erring elitemen because of a web of mutual dependencies and vulnerabilities that ties the elite together. Perhaps. Anyway, we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg in the information age. Other times, it would have been ruthlessly and easily suppressed and none would be any the wiser. Who knows, eh?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

Hari Seldon wrote:IMHO, its vastly more (a) than (b). Vastly so.
A market-driven system should have the right checks and balances, where if there is suspected fraud- the victims of fraud have the ability to file for prosecution. To the extent this is not happening - the system needs to be corrected.
....the infamous Harry Markopolis case. Here's some background Madoff whistle-blower: ‘No One Would Listen’
It would have been good if the SEC could be successfully prosecuted for its negligence in Madoff case...but as this Time article points out...the other angle to this is this would discourage any serious interest in a regulatory job: After Its Madoff Report, Can Victims Sue the SEC? At the least, some heads should roll at SEC over this.
The less said about systematic and widespread fraud in the liar loans, ARMs and other madness that enveloped retail sales of mortgages to people with neither willingness nor ability to repay
The investors in MBS and CDOs should be suing the securitizers for negligence, and the securitizers should in turn be suing the originators for misrepresentation. Is this happening? If not, why not? Why has the system of checks and balances failed?
Foreclosure & Retail banking fraud
The regulations seem to be weighed against the consumer in these cases...eg the stipulation that the case has to be filed by the consumer within 6 months. That is partly what I meant by change in regulation to make loans / mortgages more consumer-friendly. At the same time - some defaulters also see this as a recourse to blame the system for fraud - so one needs to keep that in mind while making sure that genuine consumer issues are addressed.
The checks and balances seem to be working in this case....N.Y. AG sues Ernst & Young over Lehman’s collapse
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by kmkraoind »

China says has helped Europe by buying debt

The next economic crisis would start only when unemployment and unrest shoots up in China or west should be bankrupt enough to stop spending. Till that time vendor financing game will continue and influence of China will grow.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by devesh »

why is china buying European debt? if there ever was a ticking time bomb, it's the Euro debt. German people will lose patience long before the debt black hole is cleared away. or the ppl in respective countries themselves will take to streets in uncontrolled violence that will ensure that somewhere somehow one country will get a govt staunchly nationalistic and stop bending to EU/ECB/Franco-German pressure/bankers, etc.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

devesh wrote:why is china buying European debt? if there ever was a ticking time bomb, it's the Euro debt. German people will lose patience long before the debt black hole is cleared away. or the ppl in respective countries themselves will take to streets in uncontrolled violence that will ensure that somewhere somehow one country will get a govt staunchly nationalistic and stop bending to EU/ECB/Franco-German pressure/bankers, etc.
Buying the western debt will make sure that the current western system will survive. Things are still undefined for the future in the financial world but they hope to cover the gap as they go forward. This is the biggest gamble they are taking bcus the alternative is a forced decompress and downside.
What is the dates they are looking - 2012 or 2014 or 2018. At these years one or all the components of this architecture will collapse and will create a re order. war and shut down will happen to fix the problem.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by devesh »

are you seriously suggesting a global scale war by the Western imperialists in cahoots with their satraps like PRC?

so, china is basically spending its peoples' savings on waste paper. that is enough evidence to show that PRC is nothing more than a Western poodle and the whole US vs. PRC nonsense is fabricated to divert the focus from real issues.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Abhijeet »

Korea and Japan are well-known special cases where enlightened governments actively pursued a policy of encouraging "national champions", leading to conglomerates dominating the economy. I remember reading that something like 60% of South Korea's GDP is generated through chaebol-owned companies.

These are not good examples for India to follow, since the Indian government is largely incompetent, and incapable of the type of oversight that such a policy demands. It is in our interest to not have the same few groups -- whether they behave like PE firms or not -- dominate many unrelated sectors of the Indian economy.

As I had written earlier, it is currently possible in India to buy a Tata Indica car, buy electronics at the Tata Croma retail chain, have a Tata Sky TV connection at home, use the Tata Docomo cell phone service, get your Internet service through Tata Indicom, get your electricity through Tata power, get loans from Tata Capital, and get insurance through Tata AIG. There are probably a few other areas I'm missing.

There are some examples of such groups in the US, but the difference is whether they are an exception or the norm like in India.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

Hari Seldon wrote:The less said about systematic and widespread fraud in the liar loans, ARMs and other madness that enveloped retail sales of mortgages to people with neither willingness nor ability to repay
Came across some articles on MBS investors who have started prosecution - the ones to feel the pinch will be the originators and servicers. Only fair, given their central role in precipitating the crisis...

Banks are under assault from buyers of mortgage securities

Document flaws may lead investors to fight MBS deals
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

devesh wrote:are you seriously suggesting a global scale war by the Western imperialists in cahoots with their satraps like PRC?

so, china is basically spending its peoples' savings on waste paper. that is enough evidence to show that PRC is nothing more than a Western poodle and the whole US vs. PRC nonsense is fabricated to divert the focus from real issues.
War may be due to problem of not able to sustain current system. They will try foremost to keep the current system
when PRC started buying US treasuries from 1994 it was the start of PRC coming inside the system.
1972 - China US relationship with Nixon visit
1978 - China US trade relationship
1985 - China US nuclear treaty
1992 - China in NPT
1994 - China fixes currency to the dollar and expands trade world wide
1998 - China takes over from other south east asian countries moving the mfg to mainland
2000 - China in WTO
2002 - China buys more 1$T Us bonds to keep its currency and export intact
2005 - China in massive commodity trade worldwide
2008 - China is hit by global demand slump
2010 - China use internal stimulus
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

So whats the story of Portuguese debt? I heard the govt resigned and they have a boatload of debt to renegotiate.
And right on cue we have

Euro Collapse not unthinkable:Buffet

Is he scare mongering or stating facts?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by VikramS »

devesh wrote:are you seriously suggesting a global scale war by the Western imperialists in cahoots with their satraps like PRC?

so, china is basically spending its peoples' savings on waste paper. that is enough evidence to show that PRC is nothing more than a Western poodle and the whole US vs. PRC nonsense is fabricated to divert the focus from real issues.
deveshji:



Those savings which China is wasting came about because the Americans were willing to buy Chinese. For the Chinese it provided a way to take hundreds of millions out of poverty and make their economy the second biggest in the world. Even if China loses some of its savings the hundreds of millions of Chinese who have been bought out of generational poverty will be worth it for them. It is not that China is suffering because of a lack of capital because their savings were not invested properly.

Incidentally, the Chinese have shortened the duration of their holding significantly, making them much less immune to rise in interest rates. They are not dumb idiots or poodles as you make them out to be. They made out like bandits on their longer duration bonds during the crisis (see a chart of TLT over the past few years).
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

devesh wrote:so, china is basically spending its peoples' savings on waste paper. that is enough evidence to show that PRC is nothing more than a Western poodle and the whole US vs. PRC nonsense is fabricated to divert the focus from real issues.
Very much in line with what China has done for the last two decades....their firms have always been very liberal with vendor financing - and the CPC has taken vendor financing to a whole new level of inter-country relationships. China finances the US and Europe and the consumers in these regions continue to buy Chinese goods and maintain Chinese growth.

Rather than naively blaming the Chinese for being a Western poodle, the alternative conclusion is that China has a far higher belief in globalization and the benefits of trade and mutual global interdependence.

This is kind of analogous to the debate on Austrian economics that has so dominated this thread. The Austrians' central emphasis is on 'savers' who are extremely careful with their funds - net result is that while this minimizes individual risk - it results in lower growth rate for the economy as a whole. What goes around comes around.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

ramana wrote:So whats the story of Portuguese debt? I heard the govt resigned and they have a boatload of debt to renegotiate.
And right on cue we have

Euro Collapse not unthinkable:Buffet

Is he scare mongering or stating facts?
He isnt scare mongering at all..It is plausible..the whole concept of a common currency without a common debt market is a bit of a contradiction in terms...Sovereigns under stress today cannot take recourse to standard policy tools to counter the same - devaluation, interest rates the works...the only real option is someone coughing up the money to plug the hole..Germany has been doing it till now, but for how long no one can say...Someone put it succinctly, Euro is a socio-political compact, not a currency union...That is very true...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Very much in line with what China has done for the last two decades....their firms have always been very liberal with vendor financing - and the CPC has taken vendor financing to a whole new level of inter-country relationships. China finances the US and Europe and the consumers in these regions continue to buy Chinese goods and maintain Chinese growth.
Vendor financing? Much like what Lucent and Nortel were doing during the heady years of the tech bubble, eh?
/Sorry, couldn't resist.

PRC has the 'luxury' of appropriating at will its people's savings. And partly hence, we see all those nice shiny infrastruc projects and manufacturing powerplay on display. Who can say whether the alternate investment avenues the CPC has chosen for the appropriated funds will prove worthwhile investments or not, eh? Well, time will tell, for sure. All we can do is wait and watch. And perhaps, hope and pray also. That pain for mango people the world over is minimized in the coming dislocations only.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Arjun wrote:The investors in MBS and CDOs should be suing the securitizers for negligence, and the securitizers should in turn be suing the originators for misrepresentation. Is this happening? If not, why not? Why has the system of checks and balances failed?
Foreclosure & Retail banking fraud
The regulations seem to be weighed against the consumer in these cases...eg the stipulation that the case has to be filed by the consumer within 6 months. That is partly what I meant by change in regulation to make loans / mortgages more consumer-friendly. At the same time - some defaulters also see this as a recourse to blame the system for fraud - so one needs to keep that in mind while making sure that genuine consumer issues are addressed.
The checks and balances seem to be working in this case....N.Y. AG sues Ernst & Young over Lehman’s collapse
Well, well, just in time perhaps, here's a very recent piece in Bloomberg by Jon Weil (no relation to Sandy Weil, I presume :))
Moral for CEOs Is Choose Your Fraud Carefully
And that's because the regulators have amply shown there're certain types of fraud they won;t touch and which are hence, essentially, riskless only.
Of all the stories to come out of the 2008 collapses of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, this one may be the most incredible: To this day, neither company has admitted that any of the numbers on its financial statements that year were wrong.

It seems the Securities and Exchange Commission won’t be doing anything to challenge that pretense, either, and that this may be by design. The SEC for years has been bending over backward to avoid accusing major financial institutions of cooking their books, even when it’s obvious they did. So much for upholding financial integrity.
When FASB FAS 157 was armtwisted into existence itself this financial integrity nonsense took pretty much a fatal blow. That it was later rationalised and now essentially institutionalized makes it even more happy, eh?
There’s a pattern here. When the SEC in 2009 accused former Countrywide Financial Corp. CEO Angelo Mozilo of securities fraud, it claimed the lender’s management foresaw as early as 2004 that the company would suffer massive credit losses on the home loans it was making. The SEC’s complaint accused Mozilo of “disclosure fraud” for hiding such information from investors.
Accounting Violation

Yet if the SEC’s allegation were true, it would mean Countrywide had been overstating its earnings for years, by delaying the recognition of losses long past the point when management knew they were probable. That would be an accounting violation. The SEC never made that connection in its complaint, though, and clearly had made a decision not to. Mozilo later paid $67.5 million to settle the suit, without admitting or denying the regulator’s claims.
IMO Matt Taibbi made this powerful point about how the worst the worst of the financial org ofenders could expect was a piddly settlement without even having to admit guilt. Such is the hold of wall st over regulation in the land of the free and the home of the brave. What that implies for the 'independence' of regulators elsewhere including in our own corruption-free country is staggering, to say the least.
And they [Fannie and Freddie] did it all in broad daylight with the full knowledge and approval of their regulator, the Federal Housing Finance Agency. That helps explain why the SEC is trying to dig up something other than accounting misdeeds as it tries to build cases against former Fannie and Freddie executives. The toughest challenge for the SEC will be finding violations that the government didn’t know about while they were going on.

The biggest beneficiaries of the SEC’s see-no-accounting- evil approach are the Big Four accounting firms. Freddie Mac is audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP. Deloitte & Touche LLP audits Fannie Mae. KPMG LLP audited Countrywide. Ernst & Young LLP audited IndyMac.
Always ask, who benefits? And who benefits from who benefits? And so on and on.

The Q still remains why the SEC chose not to act? Or was forced not to act? Which was it, actually? Yves provides some answers here:

The regulator has been kept resource starved. Under Arthur Levitt (hardly the most aggressive of SEC chiefs) any effort at enforcement led to threats from Congress of budget cuts (Joe Lieberman was particularly aggressive). Chris Cox was put in charge, as far as I can tell, to make sure the agency did at little as possible. So the SEC only knows how to do insider trading cases, and on any other type of action, it seeks to get a settlement, when a trial in some cases might have more value as a deterrent (plus you don’t get to be good at litigating if you never litigate).
Chalo, work beckons. Have a nice day, all.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

Hari Seldon wrote:Well, well, just in time perhaps, here's a very recent piece in Bloomberg by Jon Weil (no relation to Sandy Weil, I presume :))
Moral for CEOs Is Choose Your Fraud Carefully
And that's because the regulators have amply shown there're certain types of fraud they won;t touch and which are hence, essentially, riskless only.
Lets not leave all responsibility for litigation on the SEC- the beauty of the American capitalist system is the market and individuals' ability to prosecute for their rights.

Your article goes into the question of accounting fraud at the GSEs, Countrywide & Indymac. Each of them have had class action suits filed against them by former investors (in the case of Countrywide a sum of $600 Mil has already been reached as settlement).....all the class actions charge key executives of improper disclosures and running the companies to the ground. The market is making the firms and the executives pay. If there was any way the auditors could be sued as part of these class-action lawsuits - believe me the legal counsel for the investors would not have let that pass....Essentially both the SEC and investors are charging the firms with not disclosing the extent of risk - but whether the risk should have been reflected in the balance sheets is definitely not an open and shut case, as you are probably aware.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

Euroad to Nowhere
Euroad to Nowhere

We’ve spoken a great deal about oil in the last few weeks, but new items are emerging on the economic radar that require discussion, so we’re shifting focus for the time being.

The first issue is European sovereign debt.

Under the cover of NATO bombing the ancien regime’s assets in Libya and the Japanese earthquake and its devastating aftermath, European fringe bonds have sold off in manic fashion. We’re talking about Ireland and Portugal specifically – though not exclusively. Greece, too, has seen growing waves of selling and Spain is looking more the dog daily.

But Portugal is now in the center ring of the ongoing European circus. The Iberian pauper was thrown to the debt dogs after its minority government stated it could no longer govern. The cause of the resignation was refusal of opposition parties to endorse an austerity plan that would have avoided triggering a European bailout. But now that tax hikes and spending cuts have been voted down, Portuguese bond yields are screaming higher, and it appears the peninsula dwellers will now be forced to accept terms dictated by their European overlords a la Ireland and Greece. Either that, or go bankrupt.

A Zoo of Debt

The scene now shifts to Brussels, where those same lords and ladies are meeting to decide how best to show the world that Europe is not a joke that has morphed from funny to grotesque, and that earlier blowups in Greece and Ireland have now seen their end in Portugal.

How that show goes is anybody’s guess, but for our part, it appears that well-fed Europeans living in la-la land for the better part of a century will now have to deal with the proverbial chickens coming home to roost. When you live too high off the hog for too long on other people’s money, you eventually forget how to work and save. And when you can no longer pay for your feed, and no one wants to give you anything without loan shark rates attached, you eventually to learn to live within your means. Upshot is: no matter how you slice it, countries like Portugal, Ireland and Greece will ultimately decree upon themselves austerity whether they like it or not.

Until they get it together, however, the lords of Germany and France will have to pay for the periphery states to borrow at cheaper rates, one consequence of which will be strong headwinds in the face of the German and French economies.

Do Not Invest In Europe

While Europe may look like a soggy souvlaki in a bun, Japan is indescribably less appetizing from an investment perspective.

Take a look at this:

Japan had been counted upon (along with China) to help the EU support the European periphery by soaking up those countries’ new debt issuance. Japan is plainly not in any position to continue in that role at the moment, as they’re now preparing to turn to global capital markets to finance their own reconstruction.

And as the above chart shows, Japan is literally ‘off the charts’ in terms of its national debt to revenue ratio, with a current reading of better than 1900% (!), and in the process of expanding appreciably. With new financing needs about to explode and tax receipts expected to plummet, that country will be years in the recovery, and won’t be in the lending game in any appreciable way for gawd knows how long.

Around the World in 80 Words

In the meantime, Egypt’s market sold off (again) and is down 6% as of this writing, with tanks parked outside the Cairo Exchange. Libyan tanks, too, are active against that country’s rebels. And Moody’s just downgraded 30 Spanish Banks, leading Euro pessimists to view Spain as the next continental domino to fall. (Spain has 20+% unemployment and a rocky real estate outlook.) Globally, automakers are due to run out of microchips, sensors, rubber and other necessary parts due to the disaster in Japan. Look for plant shutdown to begin shortly.
When it’s time to make money…

Best to make it in U.S. dollars. There’s not going to be any great appetite for yen for the next few months, despite the recent rally and premature calls to buy the dip. Nor will the latest push higher in the Euro last much longer. There’s simply nothing underpinning either move, save inertia.

The dollar’s gonna rise, folks. Play it with DXY options perhaps. Long dated calls may be the best bet.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Airavat »

Spain Poses Big Test: WSJ

On Wednesday, investors sent the euro reeling after the Portuguese parliament rejected a budget-cutting plan that prompted the resignation of Prime Minister Jose Socrates. Despite Wednesday's turmoil, traders have long suspected Portugal would require an international bailout. However, eyes are shifting to Spain, the world's 12th largest economy. While Spanish stock and bond prices rose in the wake of Portugal's news, questions continue to shroud the euro zone's fourth largest economy.

According to estimates from the Bank of International Settlements, Spanish banks are the most exposed to possible losses in Portugal, as they account for $109 billion out of $322 billion in total exposure of foreign banks in the country. "Spain is a very big deal and it needs to be firewalled," said Kevin Hebner, currency strategist at J.P. Morgan Chase in New York. "It's one thing with smaller peripheral countries, but there's nothing peripheral about Spain."
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

Union Organizer Stephen Lerner Defends His Plan To Crash The Stock Market
Stephen Lerner, a veteran union organizer, wants collective bargaining for homeowners that owe money to the big banks.

And this week, he was caught on tape talking about a "mortgage strike" against the big banks. He suggested that a large number of homeowners stop paying their mortgage until the banks agree to negotiate and modify loans.
...

it was very funny in a number of discussions that I've had, I say to people well if you got a billion dollars in free money and then loaned it out at 3% would you make any money? Everybody said, yeah I'd make money, I'd say, well you're a brilliant banker.
:rotfl:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/ ... 9V20110325
U.S. closes small bank, bringing 2011 total to 26

WASHINGTON | Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:38pm EDT
(Reuters) - U.S. authorities closed the Bank of Commerce of Wood Dale, a small Illinois bank on Friday, bringing the total number of foreclosures in 2011 to 26.

The Illinois bank had about $163.1 million in assets, the FDIC said. Advantage National Bank Group of Elk Grove Village, Illinois, will assume the failed banks' deposits.

In 2010, 157 banks failed following 140 failures in 2009. The bulk of the failures have increasingly been smaller institutions, those with less than $1 billion in assets, as large banks have recovered more quickly from the 2007-2009 financial crisis.

FDIC Chairman Sheila Bair has said the agency expects the number of failures to drop in 2011.

Community banks continue to be hit hard by the weak economy and the amount of bad loans on their books, particularly in the commercial real estate sector.

In the FDIC's most recent quarterly report, released on February 23, the agency said the number of banks on the "problem list" grew to 884 from 860.

Most of these institutions will not fail but the list provides an indication of how many banks are struggling and it illustrates the problems facing small institutions.

When releasing the latest quarterly results, however, Bair said the outlook for the industry as a whole is improving including for small institutions.

In its quarterly update the FDIC reported that banks had combined earnings of $21.7 billion in the fourth quarter of 2010, marking the fourth profitable quarter in a row.

But statistics showed lending continued to contract, down 0.2 percent or $13.6 billion for the quarter, and Bair warned it would have to pick up for the industry to take the next step in its recovery from the 2007-2009 financial crisis.

(Reporting by Dave Clarke and Roberta Rampton; editing by Sofina Mirza-Reid)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ldev »

Somnath wrote:....the whole concept of a common currency without a common debt market is a bit of a contradiction in terms...
And would you agree with the statement that *the whole concept of a reserve currency without an overwhelming share of global GDP is also a contradiction in terms* i.e. US share of global GDP has fallen in half since the original Bretton Woods Agreement in 1944.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

ldev wrote:
Somnath wrote:....the whole concept of a common currency without a common debt market is a bit of a contradiction in terms...
And would you agree with the statement that *the whole concept of a reserve currency without an overwhelming share of global GDP is also a contradiction in terms* i.e. US share of global GDP has fallen in half since the original Bretton Woods Agreement in 1944.
Reserve currency is a question of a few factors, not one:

1. Size of economy
2. Size of global trade (merchandise and services)
3. Size of capital markets
4. Quality and stability of ccy policy

On all four, US stands taller than any other country in the world, by far....At an integrated level, no one comes even close...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by devesh »

one salient feature of US treasuries market is that it is very liquid. this is a required feature for any reserve currency. US treasury window is very liquid. i've heard that even amounts upward of $1 Trillion can be cashed in by customers in a single day without any problems. it is the most liquid currency trading market in the world by many, many miles. that cannot be denied. and no country, even PRC, is nowhere close to achieving such a level of liquidity and smooth transactions for its currency.
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