2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

[Amber G.]

Shivji - Actually .. I did not miss the joke /smile/ (I have read your posts for years).

My first instinct, after I ed was to keep quiet... then to suggest that you read that NTLH method.... but then decided why not make the reply serious.. will not do any harm /smile/

Anyway - am I in the right ball figure per your medical references? .Are radiation therapy doses (calculated to full body dose) in India and in hospitals you know are consistent with the numbers I put.

Guru Prabhu - You (and Chankayaji) probably noticed that 100nGy radiation rate which was being mentioned in that paper is very close to 1bed..

While 1000 mSV dose of my post above ("Thresh hold" for some of those extreme NTLT methods) is equivalent to about radiation from a string of 20,000 Km long banana..!

[chaanakya]

Death toll tops 10,000

The official death toll from the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami topped 10,000 on Friday, while around 240,000 people continue to seek shelter in some 1,900 evacuation centers.
According to the National Police Agency, more than 27,000 people had been confirmed dead or missing as of noon Friday, comprising 10,035 deaths and 17,443 unaccounted for.

<snip>

Police in Miyagi Prefecture meanwhile believe the sea will yield more bodies.
Damage to buildings and roads is estimated at between ¥16 trillion and ¥25 trillion.
Miyagi police have posted information on their website about more than 2,000 recovered bodies, including details of clothing, in hopes of identifying them.

With the number of bodies collected far exceeding the authorities' capacity to cremate them all, Miyagi and Iwate prefectures are forgoing tradition and have started burials. In Higashimatsushima, Miyagi Prefecture, nearly 100 bodies have already been buried.

In Iwate, Miyagi and Fukushima prefectures, autopsies have been completed on some 9,890 bodies, of which 6,890 have been identified and 6,320 returned to their families.

While highways and ports in the disaster-hit areas have reopened, part of the bullet train service on the Tohoku Shinkansen Line remains suspended with no clear time frame for resumption. In addition, 55 sewage plants remain disabled.

Meanwhile, aftershocks have continued to jolt survivors of the disaster, and the Meteorological Agency is forecasting a 20 percent chance of an aftershock with a magnitude of more than 7.0 striking through Sunday.

<snip>
The nuclear crisis, meanwhile, led authorities to issue temporary warnings in Tokyo, as well as cities in Fukushima, Ibaraki, Chiba, Saitama and Tochigi prefectures on Thursday calling on people not to give tap water to infants due to contamination from radioactive iodine.

Tokyo has lifted its warning.

[Amber G.]

A situation summary from the World Health Organisation put the death toll from the 11 March earthquake and tsunami at over 8800 confirmed dead with more than 12,600 still missing. More recent reports now put the cost at over 10,000 lives.

In total almost 320,000 people have been evacuated, with over 130,000 of these from Fukushima prefecture for reasons of both the tsunami and the nuclear emergency.

Over 220,000 homes are still without access to electricity, notwithstanding the non-operation of nuclear and fossil power plants. Gas supplies are disrupted to almost 440,000 homes. Some 1700 roads are damaged with many of these closed. More than 50 bridges are down.

KI distribution:

Japanese authorities have reported to the IAEA after examining the thyroid glands of 66 children, including 14 infants. The results 'had no big difference from the level of background and was at the level of no problem in the view of the Nuclear Safety Commission.'

NPP - after two weeks:

Tokyo Electric Power Company has been criticised over yesterday's exposure to workers operating in ankle-deep water, but continues to make progress towards stabilising the site two weeks after the natural disasters of 11 March.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency has told the company to improve its radiation monitoring and the controls protecting workers that are bringing systems back online at Fukushima Daiichi.

It is of course understandable that the lower part of the turbine building of unit 3, in which three workers were installing cables, had not been fully checked. But it is thought that contractors ignored alarms from their dosimeters, while ankle-deep in contaminated water for about three hours. They received doses of 170-180 millisieverts and seem to have suffered shallow burns to their skin from beta radiation.

The International Atomic Energy Agency said that 17 personnel have now received radiation doses of over 100 millisieverts. This level remains below an international standard of 500 millisieverts for emergencies, as well as a temporary limit of 250 millisieverts allowed by authorities in the current situation.

Investigations are now underway into the unexpectedly high level of contamination in the water, particularly as the basement of the turbine building is not a recognised radiation area. One theory is that there is a leak from the reactor circuit, but pressures in the reactor vessel indicate this must be elsewhere in the loop.

Despite this disappointment, steady progress continues to be made on site. Instrumentation is being recovered at units 1, 2 and 4 and lights are on in the control rooms of units 1 and 3. Power connections have reached all the units and checks are underway before normal systems can be re-energised. The shared pond for used fuel pond has now been reconnected.

Freshwater is replacing seawater for injection to the reactor systems of units 1 and 3. This is to prevent salt accumulation and damage to main pumps, which Tepco hope to bring back into operation once checks are complete. Preparations are underway to use freshwater at unit 2 as well with all the supplies coming from Sakashita Dam.

Water injection work has continued to the fuel ponds of units 2 and 4 using the pool cleaning and filtering systems, while unit 3 was sprayed by fire trucks. Tepco is maintaining a watch on all the fuel ponds and will continue to spray and inject as necessary.

The residual heat removal system of cold shutdown unit 5 is now back in operation after a trip two days ago, although the loss of this did not threaten the reactor's cold shutdown status. External power for units 5 and 6 comes from diesel generators brought back into service.

Source:
h[url]ttp://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Fukushima ... 03111.html[/url]

[GuruPrabhu]

Guru Prabhu - You (and Chankayaji) probably noticed that 100nGy radiation rate which was being mentioned in that paper is very close to 1bed..

I was critiquing that paper purely on the basis of its statistical treatment of data. Medical researchers are notorious for being clueless about statistical analysis. They may be brilliant in some other things but given 5 marbles, they make a theory and the 6th marble confirms it. A typical lecture on analytical snafus uses a paper from a medical journal as an example. This may be OT, so I will not bore you with details/examples.

However, 100 nGy was not the rate -- 100 nGy/hour was the rate. And they probably assumed thousands of hours of exposure. I know that the total dose will still be miniscule, but that point is easily lost in the noise.

[chaanakya]

Guru Prabhu - You (and Chankayaji) probably noticed that 100nGy radiation rate which was being mentioned in that paper is very close to 1bed..

While 1000 mSV dose of my post above ("Thresh hold" for some of those extreme NTLT methods) is equivalent to about radiation from a string of 20,000 Km long banana..!

In case you did not notice, 1000 mSV used to be statutory safe limit in 1927. Regulatory warnings prompting decisions to jump out of windows are based on such statutory limits. Currently it is 1 mSV.( annual limit)

And for doses to quote

"The primitive erythemal dose threshold arguments together with the development of the physical-energy-based units-- rad, Gray etc.--gave limits for external dose based on a model which involved so much energy transfer with a 70 kg.
sack of water called a `reference man'."

"one cup of boiling water at 100 degrees centigrade contains the same energy, the same number of Joules, as a bucket of water at the temperature of twenty degrees. An energy transfer to a person of one waterthrow unit could encompass either a cupful of boiling water in the face or a bucket of water at room temperature: more information is needed before the health consequence can be assessed."

"the use of external doses to calculate cancer risk (as the ICRP do) is like comparing warming oneself by the fire with eating a hot coal."

But I guess you already know.

(Again - by no means the above means that doses less than 1000mSV is safe (or will not cause cancer).. it is just we can't say positively (in statistical way) that it will - we go on side of caution.. normal safe level, even for nuclear plant workers, are in the range of 50 mSV. )

[chaanakya]

Drastic' ideas eyed for power crisis

The government will come up with a drastic plan by April to deal with a major electricity shortage expected this summer from the loss of two nuclear power plants damaged by the quake and tsunami in Fukushima Prefecture.


Teamwork: Ground Self-Defense Force personnel search for people in Onagawa, Miyagi Prefecture, on Friday. KYODO PHOTO
Options being considered include the introduction of daylight-saving time, known locally as "summer time," and a hike in electricity charges, although nothing has been decided yet.

When electricity use peaks to escape the heat and humidity this summer, it is expected to create a shortage of around 10 million kw — or nearly 20 percent of total available power — Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said upon emerging from an emergency meeting on the problem earlier in the day.

"There needs to be a drastic and immediate measure that may affect industrial business activities and people's lifestyles to fill in the gap" between supply and demand, Edano said.

[chaanakya]

equivalent to about radiation from a string of 20,000 Km long banana..!

Which variety poovan or rasthali?

[chaanakya]

Tsunami floods 500 sq km

The area affected by the massive Tsunami along the coastline of eastern Japan extends as far as
500 square kilometers according to satellite image data.

Pasco, a geospatial company in Tokyo, analyzed satellite images of coastline stretching from Aomori to Ibaraki Prefectures taken between March 11th and 20th.

The firm says that the flooded area encompasses 470 square kilometers. Miyagi Prefecture is the most affected with 300 square kilometers of flooded land. Fukushima Prefecture follows with 110 square kilometers, while Iwate Prefecture has about 50 square kilometers damaged by the Tsunami.

In southern parts of Miyagi, there was some improvement as the latest image taken on March 24th indicates the area affected by flooding shrank.

However, 70 percent of it is still under water.
Saturday, March 26, 2011 04:22 +0900 (JST)

[chaanakya]

Fault line shifted up to 30m

Japan's Meteorological Agency says the recent massive earthquake off the Pacific coast of Northeastern Japan occurred due to a fault line shift of up to 30 meters.

The agency said at a news conference on Friday that it discovered this while analyzing how the quake occurred based on seismometer data it obtained in Japan and abroad.

The findings show the breakdown of the fault started in waters off Miyagi Prefecture. The northern portion of the fault line stretching 200 kilometers off Iwate Prefecture and the southern part stretching 150 kilometers had moved.

Immediately after that, about 100 kilometers of the southern part of the fault line moved toward waters off Ibaraki Prefecture.

All this shows that the 450-kilometer fault line shifted a distance of up to 30 meters in just 3 minutes. This caused a massive quake with a magnitude of 9.0 and a tsunami 10 meters high which hit the Pacific coast of Japan.

The meteorological agency says it will continue its analysis of huge earthquakes and aftershocks to help improve disaster response.
Saturday, March 26, 2011 04:22 +0900 (JST)

[chaanakya]

Consultation service for foreign students in Japan

This is really thoughtful of them. Such measures are needed.

Japan's Ryugaku Kyokai, or Study Abroad Support Council, has started providing a consultation service for foreign students in Japan affected by the March 11th earthquake and tsunami.

The nonprofit organization will help those affected find temporary shelters, change schools, extend visas and make other necessary arrangements.

The service is available by telephone or by e-mail.

The telephone line is open from 9:00 AM to 5:30 PM on weekdays and the number is 03-5282-8600.

The e-mail address: [email protected]
Friday, March 25, 2011 20:27 +0900 (JST)

[GuruPrabhu]

"There needs to be a drastic and immediate measure that may affect industrial business activities and people's lifestyles to fill in the gap" between supply and demand, Edano said.

I agree. It is only reasonable to shut down all NPP in India. DAE should be dissolved. Can't have enough of drastic and immediate measures. I am feeling nervous about ISRO too. It is not cool to have rockets dropping out of the sky. Is that safe, I ask? Shut it down, pronto!

[ramana]

GP. Calm down. This is the Japan thread. Thanks.

[GuruPrabhu]

Saar, I am calm onlee. Just trying out the new debating skills I have learned lately. But yes, I will take a break.

[chaanakya]

From Radioactive frogs I am reminded of

There were Radium-containing general tonics, hair restorers, toothpastes and cures for all ills from arthritis
to infertility. A hearing-aid was marketed with the magic ingredient, `hearium'. One most popular and widely used preparation was `Radium water', often referred to as 'liquid sunshine'.

and..

The dial-painters kept their paint-brushes pointed by licking the tips. Although Radium was known to be highly radioactive, the amounts used in the paint were truly tiny, and it was assumed that the procedure was safe. The underlying assumption, of course, was that the energy transfer was very small. It was also believed, on no evidence, that any Radium ingested would pass straight through the body in a short time.

Don't know what happened to consumers. X-men...

[GuruPrabhu]

"one cup of boiling water at 100 degrees centigrade contains the same energy, the same number of Joules, as a bucket of water at the temperature of twenty degrees.

see we learn fascinating facts, such as 1 bucket = 1.25 cups approximately (373K/293K).

Now, does anyone think that Chanakyaa ought to defend that claim or simply say, "I am no physicist, or bucketician, or cupologist" and get away with this claim?

[chaanakya]

"one cup of boiling water at 100 degrees centigrade contains the same energy, the same number of Joules, as a bucket of water at the temperature of twenty degrees.

see we learn fascinating facts, such as 1 bucket = 1.25 cups approximately (373K/293K).

Now, does anyone think that Chanakyaa ought to defend that claim or simply say, "I am no physicist, or bucketician, or cupologist" and get away with this claim?

Where did you learn that?

Given total amount of energy ,Sp Heat and temp. change of 100 deg or 20 deg from 0 deg, assuming, you would require five times more amount of water. so lets say here he could be meaning 1 bucket from 0 deg to 20 deg = 1 cup from 0 deg to 100 deg and would require same amount of energy transfer assuming 1bucket=5 cups. that is what it appears. Wait to see more qualified statements. ( alternatively you can work out amount of energy needed to change the temp from 0 deg to 100 deg for 1000 g of water vis a vis 5000 g of water from 0 deg to 20 deg, that is a matter of physics thread anyway)

And talk about ambient noise.

[Pratyush]

Being a total nuke bozo and upon reading this thread, I will ask the experrts on this thread, whether I should end my life, now that the sky is falling on the Japanies or should go on with my life in blissfull ignorence that no serious harm will come to the japanies due to this slow motion nuke emergency.

Bliss to guide me, am so konpused onlee.

I see that we have moobed from bananas to cups of water, this is adding to my Konphusion onlee......

[Gerard]

Quake Rips Apart Japanese Road, Japanese Repair It in 6 Days

[GuruPrabhu]

Where did you learn that?

The location of my madarsa is not relevant. However, I am impressed. It is one thing to not know science, but it is quite another to have the chutzpah to flaunt it. I post your statement again:

"one cup of boiling water at 100 degrees centigrade contains the same energy, the same number of Joules, as a bucket of water at the temperature of twenty degrees.

As I said to someone else before, just get a pencil and paper and do the calculation. The number of joules is the total internal energy of the water. You can get the formulae here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_energy

Or, I can make it easy for you and say that for thermal energy, U is proportional to T (and recall the Kelvin scale for temp).

And talk about ambient noise.

Saar, it is way past talking about it. And, it is OT as well.

[Amber G.]

equivalent to about radiation from a string of 20,000 Km long banana..!

Which variety poovan or rasthali?

Stating the obvious - See the reply to Shivji - when one says 1 Horse power is about 700 watts, one need not ask which type of horse.

And "20,000 Km" is just to make people think who gets terrified by larger numbers.

Hth.

[Amber G.]

In case you did not notice, 1000 mSV used to be statutory safe limit in 1927. Regulatory warnings prompting decisions to jump out of windows are based on such statutory limits. Currently it is 1 mSV.( annual limit)

And for doses to quote
<snip>

Folks: Please read what I actually said.. also FWIW disclaimer in the front of that simple chart...

1000 mSV was NOT claimed to be coming out from any "statutory safe limit or ..Regulatory warnings" it was just based on 50 years of data, doctors who treat radiation sickness.. etc... it just means (and that too as a guide) a dose of 1000 mSv (whole body dose) is unlikely to make you sick (or any other symptoms).. risk of cancer in later part is there but that is much less than (again measured by 50+ years data).. I will let others look it up.

It was a number I would use. What would you use?

Chaankayaji, It will be helpful if you tell us what is the risk? (In quantitative terms)?
Also, For Chernobyl, since you have studied it well, what are the numbers?

57 .. 10,000, 850,000 ?? Instead of mocking me, why don't you put the numbers here to educate people?

TIA

..."the use of external doses to calculate cancer risk (as the ICRP do) is like comparing warming oneself by the fire with eating a hot coal..."

Not really, what I was trying to say, and I am now pretty sure that except for 1 or 2 people, others are getting it, ti is more like calculating how much coal one would need for our energy needs..No one is talking about eating a coal any more than "horse power" says anything about eating grass...

the use of external doses to calculate cancer risk (as the ICRP do)

Can you quote those in numbers, here please, that would be helpful.
Just put those numbers (Like a guide I put in the message for reference)
(like what mSv threshhold you will use to make a decision between running/driving in a car.. and staying if the warnings are issued.)

That will be much more helpful than getting annoyed at me.

[Bade]

Lot of reading to do catchup (though did skip over many poorly written reports, too many of them to read), but need to thank Amber and GuruP to keep sanity on the technical statements made here.

Since we are making statements about safety of site location, definitely BARC/Trombay is not safely sited for sure. The shape of the bay will channel the energy and increase wave height locally, but thankfully I do not recall seeing any hills nearby like around Miyagi (from TV reports) where the high hills probably even channeled it further in with inundation levels locally being high, hence the 38 mts reported.

Isn't there a major fault in west eastern coast of africa, pushing the horn of Africa away from the rest of the continent. There seem to be areas there where the underground lava is even visible in some places. So one can imagine a large displacement to the water column by some rapid movement, like all non-active faults, as they keep building stress over long periods of time.

[Lalmohan]

IAEA update today

on marine contamination

A vessel from the Japan Agency for Marine-Earth Science and Technology (JAMSTEC) collected water samples at eight points 30 kilometres from the coastline and found measurable concentrations of iodine-131 and cesium-137. The iodine concentrations measured were about at Japanese regulatory limits, and the cesium levels were well below those limits.

so, i am not sure where reports of x 1200 higher levels of radioactivity came from

Bade-mian; the East African Rift Valley is a major fault line, runs the length of Africa upto the Arabian peninsula. Also, note the earthquake in Myanmar yesterday... the Eastern coast is also not immune

[Amber G.]

Bade - Thank you. Appreciate that.

[vina]

Actually, all this talk about Tsunami and stuff, esp with stuff related to India has got me thinking.

So this is what I propose. I am willing to give anyone here a "Tsunami Protection" Option for India. It goes something like this. For every Tsunami event over the next 40 years, the typical life of a nuclear plant (you can pick the starting date, or even conveniently the date at which the plant is commissioned), I am willing to write a contract with anyone, that if a Tsunami hits either of the Indian coasts and the recorded Tsunami wave height is 2 metres and above (to avoid reflected Tsumai waves from Packfic or some very miniscule no effect Tsunami resulting in a claim), I will pay you the full face value of the contract of Rs 100 . To keep the contract alive, you need to pay me Rs 5 per year as premium for the contract.

How many folks are willing to sign up for the new contract,the " India Tsunami Protection Option" ?

Who says Stock Markets and stochastic math are not relevant here ? Lets see the scare mongers put money where their mouth is and buy the option. I am willing to put my money on the line here.

Hint : Given that there was a Tsunami in the Indian ocean in 2004, the conditional probability that there is going to be a Tsunami in the next couple of centuries is very small indeed, given the overall very low probability of a Tsunami happening in the Indian ocean. So please, please, buy these options and make me rich! This could be my get rich quick scheme!

[somnath]

^^^Thats a good option to "write"...I am willing to write a third party insurance on top of it...If any tsunami hits the West coast and causes damage to the Tarapur BWRs (as according to most naysayers our PHWRs are miraculously designed and therefore safe!), I am willing to pay 1000 rupees for every human fatality caused by that nuke accident...The premium for this (sticking to a 40 year period) option would be 5 rupees a year...

[vina]

Isn't there a major fault in west eastern coast of africa, pushing the horn of Africa away from the rest of the continent.

That is the rift valley that goes up via Kenya and the lakes there and then via the fork of the red sea that separates Sinai from Saudi (the Isreali port of Eilat is located there) and goes on via the that to the Dead Sea .. But the major portion of that fault is mostly inland.

There is a more dangerous siesmic area off the southern iran/baluchistan coast where the Arabian, Iranian and I think some other 3rd plate are in some tri junction and that is a bigger risk I think.

There seem to be areas there where the underground lava is even visible in some places. So one can imagine a large displacement to the water column by some rapid movement, like all non-active faults, as they keep building stress over long periods of time.

You seem to be referring to the Reunion hotspot and in fact, India passed over that hotspot on its way before colliding with Asia.

Yeah, something like a Minoan eruption in ancient greece or Krakatoa in Indonesia is possible , though it should be said that the records then indicate very marginal effects and Tsumani waves from something as gigantic as Krakatoa on the east coast of India.

And actually for the record, it does seem that a Tsumani in the west coast occured in 1945.

"Mekran Earthquake (Magnitude 8.1). 12 to 15 m wave height in 27th November1945 Ormara in Pasi (Mekran coast) Considerable damage in Mekran coastin Gulf of Cambay of Gujarat wave heights of 11-11.5 meter was estimated. Damage report from Gujarat coast was not available. The estimated height of waves at Mumbai was about 2 meters, boat boats were taken away from their moorings and causality occurred " .. All this per some doc I googled up.

All said and done, it seems that the latest 2004 earthquake and the Tsumani it unleashed caused the most havoc and loss of life.

[Bade]

Vina, was referring to the Afar one in Ethiopia that saw on the science channel. Was not aware of this till recently. It was quite mind boggling, to see that in a desert region and I thought had looked quite flat and uninteresting.

Scientists are busy studying these ruptures in the Earth’s crust at Afar, which sits along the 3000 km-long East African Rift marked by mountain ranges dropping precipitously into deep-lying basins. The magma forcing its way up from thousands of kilometres(???) beneath the surface here is gradually splitting the African continent in two. Be prepared to see more of this part of the world’s explosive nature.

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/ec ... -flow/3772

Added later:

This one seems to be a better link with a map of the plate boundaries in the region.
http://geology.com/articles/east-africa-rift.shtml

[Amber G.]

From TEPCO:
Result of the investigation on exposure to radiation of workers from cooperative companies at Unit3 in Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station

On March 24, 2011, it was confirmed that 3 workers from cooperative
companies who were in charge of cable laying work in the 1st floor and
the underground floor of turbine building were exposed to the radiation
dose of more than 170mSv.2 of them were confirmed that their leg skins
were contaminated....
<snip>
Details about gamma-ray nuclide analyses based on sampling of puddle..
in the report above.

Technical details..

From http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-co ... 503-e.html

[vera_k]

For every Tsunami event over the next 40 years, the typical life of a nuclear plant

The designs (EPR, AP1000) proposed to be built now have a design life of 60 years. At the end of that time, the license will be extended another 20 years at a minimum, just as plants supposed to be retired after 40 years are being recertified for more time today (e.g. Tarapur BWRs built in 1969 are now slated for decommissioning in 2030).

At this time scale, the probability that the plant will face a 1 in 100 year event is close to 1. Of course, plants can be designed to withstand larger calamities, but the question is whether they will still be commercially viable at that time.

[chaanakya]

Where did you learn that?

The location of my madarsa is not relevant. However, I am impressed. It is one thing to not know science, but it is quite another to have the chutzpah to flaunt it. I post your statement again:

"one cup of boiling water at 100 degrees centigrade contains the same energy, the same number of Joules, as a bucket of water at the temperature of twenty degrees.

As I said to someone else before, just get a pencil and paper and do the calculation. The number of joules is the total internal energy of the water. You can get the formulae here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_energy

Or, I can make it easy for you and say that for thermal energy, U is proportional to T (and recall the Kelvin scale for temp).

And talk about ambient noise.

Saar, it is way past talking about it. And, it is OT as well.

Did that and found the statement to be correct. I don't know how did you get 1 bucket=1.25 cups ? Perhaps you can get more heat transfer from bucket at 20 deg water then from cup at 100 deg. though both would need same amount of energy to raise the temp from 0 which you have conveniently ignored.(Try splashing one cup water at 100 deg on your hand.)

Any way if you say so , So be it.

Well Amber ji , if you see, after 58 years ( 1927 to 1985) limit has come 1000 mSv t0 1 mSv.
These doses , needless to point are based on ICRP risk assessment model that you asked for.
I would stop to think what would happen to a person if he happens to eat 20000km bananas in one hour , i.e. besides getting radiation eq. dose etc,

And no I am not annoyed at you or anyone else

[GuruPrabhu]

Did that and found the statement to be correct. I don't know how did you get 1 bucket=1.25 cups ? Perhaps you can get more heat transfer from bucket at 20 deg water then from cup at 100 deg. though both would need same amount of energy to raise the temp from 0 which you have conveniently ignored.

Arre baba, zero in thermodynamics is -273C, not 0C. This is so basic, why are you even arguing about it?

I had spelled it out for you in the earlier post (kelvin scale):

Or, I can make it easy for you and say that for thermal energy, U is proportional to T (and recall the Kelvin scale for temp).

There are contributions from bond energies, but to the first order, temperature defines it. If you get pedantic, there will be contributions to the internal energy from the hydrogen and oxygen nuclei as well. But this is getting OT.

[chaanakya]

Did that and found the statement to be correct. I don't know how did you get 1 bucket=1.25 cups ? Perhaps you can get more heat transfer from bucket at 20 deg water then from cup at 100 deg. though both would need same amount of energy to raise the temp from 0 which you have conveniently ignored.

Arre baba, zero in thermodynamics is -273C, not 0C. This is so basic, why are you even arguing about it?

I had spelled it out for you in the earlier post (kelvin scale):

Or, I can make it easy for you and say that for thermal energy, U is proportional to T (and recall the Kelvin scale for temp).

In that case just add 273 kelvin. i.e 100c =373C (kelvin) and splash./smile/
Now You get it.

Anyway OT.

[GuruPrabhu]

In that case just add 273 kelvin. i.e 100c =373C (kelvin) and splash./smile/
Now You get it.

Now I get it? The chutzpah is incredible! FYI, this was my first post on the topic:

1 bucket = 1.25 cups approximately (373K/293K)

[svinayak]

Global Supply Lines at Risk as Shipping Lines Shun Japan
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/busin ... ?src=busln
Christopher Jue/European Pressphoto Agency
The Port of Tokyo on Friday. Radiation threats from northern Japan are worrying some top container shipping lines.
By KEITH BRADSHER
Published: March 25, 2011

HONG KONG — The economic disruptions from Japan’s crisis have cascaded into another, crucial link in the global supply chain: cargo shipping.

Fearing the potential impact on crews, cargo and vessels worth tens of millions of dollars, some of the world’s biggest container shipping lines have restricted or barred their ships from calling on ports in Tokyo Bay over concerns about radiation from the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

Meantime, ports in China are starting to require strict radiation checks on ships arriving from Japan. And in California on Friday, the first ship to reach the Port of Long Beach since Japan’s earthquake was boarded and scanned for radiation by Coast Guard and federal customs officials before being allowed to dock.

Big Japanese ports much farther south of Tokyo, like Osaka and Kobe, are still loading and unloading cargo. But the Tokyo Bay ports of Tokyo and Yokohama are normally Japan’s two busiest, representing as much as 40 percent of the nation’s foreign container cargo. If other shipping companies join those already avoiding the Tokyo area, as radiation contamination spreads from Fukushima Daiichi 140 miles north, the delays in getting goods in and out of Japan would only grow worse.

The shipping industry’s fears have escalated since port officials in Xiamen, China, earlier this week detected radiation on a large container ship belonging to Mitsui O.S.K. Lines and quarantined the ship. The vessel had sailed down Japan’s northeast coast and reportedly came no closer than 80 miles to the damaged nuclear power plant; the official Xinhua news agency said on Saturday afternoon that the vessel had left a berth at the port on Wednesday afternoon and then anchored briefly at sea.

Hapag-Lloyd, a German container shipping line that is one of the world’s largest, halted service to Tokyo and Yokohama after the tsunami swamped Fukushima Daiichi. The shipper has not resumed service to those ports.

“We put safety ahead of everything else,” said Eva Gjersvik, the company’s senior director for corporate communications, adding that the company was reviewing daily whether to resume sailings to Tokyo.

Reuters reported that another German shipper, Claus-Peter Offen, has also stopped calling at Tokyo and Yokohama.

OOCL, a shipping line based in Hong Kong, said late Friday that the company had decided to halt all traffic to Tokyo and Yokohama.

OOCL will take Tokyo-bound containers to Osaka instead and send them overland from there, said Stanley Shen, the head of investor relations. The company has also drafted contingency plans to prevent its containers from traveling even overland to Tokyo if radiation levels increase in the Japanese capital, Mr. Shen added.

Merchant vessels may have to be scrapped if quarantined even temporarily for radioactivity, because they would face extra coast guard checks for years at subsequent destinations, said Basil M. Karatzas, the managing director for projects and finance at Compass Maritime Services, a ship brokerage in Teaneck, N.J.

The extra inspections make it hard to keep a schedule. “The charterers in the future will try to avoid the vessel because of the likelihood it will be delayed again,” Mr. Karatzas said.

It is not only commercial ships that are giving the radiation region a wide berth.

A senior nuclear executive said on Friday evening that the United States Navy had moved nuclear-powered vessels like the Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier far from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant after officers became concerned that radiation from the plant could enter the ships’ air ducts.

The worry is not that the radiation would pose a threat to the vessels’ crews, but that even trace contamination of the ducts could create problems in the extremely sensitive equipment aboard nuclear-powered vessels that is intended to detect any hint of a radioactive leak from onboard systems, said the executive, who insisted on anonymity to protect business connections.

Shippers, even if they can avoid radiation exposure, know that cargo coming from Japan is now subject to new delays.

[chaanakya]

In that case just add 273 kelvin. i.e 100c =373C (kelvin) and splash./smile/
Now You get it.

Now I get it? The chutzpah is incredible! FYI, this was my first post on the topic:

1 bucket = 1.25 cups approximately (373K/293K)

Ok you win I bucket=1.25 cups /smile/ happy now. As long as you see the mass mentioned in previous posts.

[GuruPrabhu]

Ok you win I bucket=1.25 cups /smile/ happy now. As long as you see the mass mentioned in previous posts.

Sigh. Numbers are not about being happy, but about being right or wrong. I suspect that you still don't get it, given the random caveat you have introduced "as long as ...". It doesn't really matter unless Amber or Bade or someone else wants to pick this up -- I am done.

I will go and try to teach a bull how to sing /smile/

[Amber G.]

Well Amber ji , if you see, after 58 years ( 1927 to 1985) limit has come 1000 mSv t0 1 mSv.

Tajmahal was so strongly built that it was not destroyed in Mahbharata war.

Prof Sievert died in mid 60's and, to honour Prof Sievert, the CGPM-conference of 1979 accepted the sievert, Sv, as the unit for equivalent dose and efficient dose. In 1927 no one even knew what is a mSv . (or even knew how to convert, correctly, raw counts to "equivalent dose for men".

Prof Sievert, by the way is (of the fame of that Sievert integral for calculation) and things like relationship between raw radiation and its biological effect and such things..)

Glad that you are not annoyed at me, but seriously, it will not do any harm to study that integral, how it is used ityadi, ityadi.. it is the basis of that ICRP method every one talks about.../smile/

And yes, the relationship between 'regulatory limit' and and 'what is safe' is like horse and cart, if you get my meaning. (If you don't and start again like which color of horse... sorry but I really cannot help /smile/).

Above all read the post I posted. The dose 1000 mSv is not taken out of a holy book (so no need of these religious arguments).. it just means.. if one receives doses less than that, one is not likely to show any symptoms..etc.. (Just read the previous post again)

And PLEASE post , so every one can get educated, what IS the your formula for radiation dose vs risk. Put it in quantitative term. While doing that, please also tell us, how many people according to you , in Chernobyl.n died due to radiation when all the effects are taken into account? 57? 100,000?, 850,000? Please give us a number.

[Amber G.]

Guru Prabhu is right, of course, about the energy in water. And this kinetic theory of heat is high school physics. Boiling water (100C) does NOT have twice the energy (of equal mass of) of 50C water. (Ratio would be something like ((273+100)/(273+50)).

[Amber G.]

That banana garbage nonsense is not in brf only (though brf seems to be one of the first to use it to put radiation danger in perspective) .. It is being used in news stories like LAtimes.
(And it seems it all started with some one asking here in brf what food does India imports from Japan... and I thought to use the term...)

Here is op-ed in NY Times (Mar 23, 2011)
The ‘Dread to Risk’ Ratio on Radiation and Other Discontents

I wish there were an easy way to graph the high “dread to risk ratio” attending debates over a host of environmental and public health questions...{ one can read this dhaga to see this ! }
..Would it matter to have a clearer view of the difference between perceived and actual hazards related to a host of issues
...It may be futile to try to clarify when fear lacks evidentiary support, or — as is often the case — simply exists in the absence of evidence one way or the other, but it’s surely worth trying.
...I urge you to read Paul Voosen's fine Greenwire article on radiation risk (mis)perceptions.
... ranging from eating a banana to living in Denver:

Here is google news cache:

Radiation: It's everywhere, even in your bananas‎
WPDE - Ryan Naquin - 2 days ago
Even eating a banana there's low levels of radiation." Potassium, found in bananas, is highly radioactive, but don't raid your pantry and throw out all your ...
►
xkcd explains why bananas are more dangerous than nuclear power‎
DVICE - Evan Ackerman - 4 days ago
Fun fact: eating one single banana gives you a higher dose of radiation than living 50 miles from a (functional) nuclear power plant for a year. ...
'xkcd' Illustrates Radiation Exposure Levels in Helpful Chart‎ - ComicsAlliance
Radiation In Japan Scary, Probably Not As Dangerous‎ - WBUR
all 5 news articles »
California Watch
US radiation expert sees no need for alarm -- for now‎
USA Today - Douglas Stanglin - 4 days ago
Morin says everyone is exposed to some form of radiation every single day. "You get an increase in your radiation dose when you eat a banana," he says. ...
Why are bananas radioactive?‎
io9 - 4 days ago
Sure, airplanes and x-rays expose people to radiation, but eating a banana? Why a banana? And how? Sure, the dose is low - one banana will only expose ...
Going bananas over radiation‎
Daily Caller - Anthony Watts - Mar 18, 2011
But, along the same lines, this little factoid might drive some people “bananas” when they read it. But, it illustrates a fact of life: radiation is ...

Daily Caller
Radiation Dosage & Its Sources Explained [CHART]‎
Mashable - Ben Parr - 5 days ago
We encounter sources of radiation every day, from natural background radiation to bananas. (Yes, bananas emit gamma rays, but you'd have to eat 5 million ...

Facts and Information about Radiation Exposure‎ - Energy Collective
all 15 news articles »
Sun2Surf
Radiating danger: radiation in our everyday lives‎
The Brandeis Hoot - Gabby Katz - 1 day ago
Last week, we examined the negative effects radiation can have on ... unlikely that any significant exposure will stem from your banana split. ...
Video: More nations halt Japan imports NewsXCanadian food safe from radiation, officials say‎ - CTV.ca
Video: Questions and answers on radiation and the Fukushima ...‎ - Greenpeace International (blog)

Globe and Mail
Fear-mongering - 1 day ago
"You get a million times--A MILLION TIMES--more radiation from eating a banana than what was detected in Sacramento this week. Why are you walking around ...
Radiation processed food: Challenge and opportunity‎
Economic Times - Shyamal Gupta - 2 days ago
All these can be controlled through irradiation which is a far superior technology ... of some radiation processed food items - strawberries, mango, banana, ...
Radiation Fears in Perspective‎
Tucson Citizen - Jonathan DuHamel - 5 days ago
Bananas are high in potassium, and potassium-40 is radioactive. One average banana will expose you to 0.01 millirem of radiation. The political fallout is ...

My first post (March 15) on bed:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... a#p1047245