Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 2010)

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somnath
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

devesh wrote:one salient feature of US treasuries market is that it is very liquid. this is a required feature for any reserve currency. US treasury window is very liquid. i've heard that even amounts upward of $1 Trillion can be cashed in by customers in a single day without any problems. it is the most liquid currency trading market in the world by many, many miles. that cannot be denied. and no country, even PRC, is nowhere close to achieving such a level of liquidity and smooth transactions for its currency.
Not just the "treasuries" (or govies)...the USD corporate bond market is by FAAR the biggest - I would say that the rest of the world put together would be a fraction of USD's size...the USD equity market again is the biggest by far...Daily ccy volumes in the markets is about 4 trillion dollars - well above half is denominated in USD...

PRC doesnt even have a fully convertible ccy - so it doesnt even start comparing..
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

from twitter:
@zerohedge Nash Equilibrium Fail: Ireland Wants Senior Bondholder Haircuts http://is.gd/HieAQ8
Watch this space. This was kinda a long time coming. Wahan Portugal too is talking tough. Oiro is wobbling alarmingly only.

This will hv consequences all over. EU is the largest trade partner for many the globe over. And they're 'enlightened democracies' to boot too. The choices and compromises they make in the coming months, who they throw under the bus and in what order of priority etc etc will be worth watching. Will have portends for us down the line as well, who knows. Also, the ugly far right is rising again all over oiroland. Once crisis blows up, there'll be no stopping their deadly march, perhaps.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by devesh »

Hungary already got a far right party elected last year. it is inevitable. nationalism is a cure for globalist cronyism. but in the hands of the far right, it can be something much more insidious.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

Practically all asset bubbles have had unsustainable debt levels as the primary cause. Property also has historically been a prime factor for the bulk of banking collapses and resultant depressions - the subprime crisis, Japan, Spain; innumerable others.....

Two articles that touch upon both of these issues:

Follow the line of debt to spot a coming crisis

Bricks and Slaughter
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

Interview with Raghuram Rajan

An old but perceptive interview of Raghuram Rajan - with his thoughts on the subprime crisis.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

Can America afford an empire?

Good question posed in the article...With fiscal deficit running at 10% of GDP, and public debt at 90% plus - the US has to move towards greater fiscal consolidation. Defence spending accounts for close to 19% of total spending - how long can the Americans continue to afford this ??
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^ Aha. I know prescient folks way ahead of their time predicting adrastic shrinking of empire to realistic proportions but like I said, they're daydreaming. Or are decades ahead of their time.

There's a serious school of thought in the US and also in parts of oiroland that genuinely believes 'deficits don't matter'. CHeck out economist James Galbraith's writings on this topic.

The Fed seems to, somewhat buy into this notion that the deficit driven national debt isn't really meant to be 'repaid' in any real sense. Time will tell where this is going only.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

A fiscal stimulus when the private sector is not able to invest may be justified. Given all the deleveraging that's happening, investment by US firms has not really picked up despite quantitative easing - & the government therefore has to step in with fiscal measures.

At the same time this can't be a blank check - clearly there need to be some prudential norms. The key question is - is there any danger to the dollar or to perception of US treasuries over the time period that the US needs for private sector growth and investment to recover.

If the answer is NO - clearly the deficit does not pose a problem. If the answer is MAYBE - the US needs to proceed with more caution. The 'deficits are Ok' mindset might have worked in the past - but the Euro-PIGS seem to have fundamentally altered investor perception on deficits and government debt.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

The US Dollar was falling in relation to the
local currency on a daily basis.

Sure, the greenback might look like it's holding up OK.
But that's because the US Dollar index shows the US Dollar's
value against a basket of unbacked, paper currencies, that
are issued by bankrupt nations like the EU or Japan.

In other words, you're measuring one flawed currency (the
Dollar) in terms of other equally flawed currencies (the Euro
or the Yen).

However, elsewhere in the REAL world, businessmen, (not
economists or analysts), refuse to accept US Dollars during
business transactions.

That alone should tell you just where the US Dollar
stands on the international stage.

In plain terms, the US Dollar crisis is already underway.
If you ignore the headlines and pay attention to the real
world you can already see it.

Prices of goods are EXPLODING higher. It's being hidden
because retailers are downsizing the size of their packages
OR packing less goods in the same space (look inside any
cereal box or other dry good and you'll find that at best it's
75% full).

So while the US Dollar looks ok against the Euro or Yen,
the reality is far FAR worse.
somnath
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by somnath »

Hari Seldon wrote: There's a serious school of thought in the US and also in parts of oiroland that genuinely believes 'deficits don't matter'. CHeck out economist James Galbraith's writings on this topic.

The Fed seems to, somewhat buy into this notion that the deficit driven national debt isn't really meant to be 'repaid' in any real sense. Time will tell where this is going only.
Its quite an old notion..And there is not an insignificant amount of merit in it..The only issue is if the people using a legal tender (USD) lose faith in the system - and its more psychological than financial - then the system itself collapses...Typically, it will happen if the Central Bank prints so much that it results in runaway inflation..

Given where inflation levels are, the Fed is gambling on more debt to killing off an incipient recovery..
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

somnath wrote:Its quite an old notion..And there is not an insignificant amount of merit in it..
The intrinsics of deficit financing vs fiscal conservatism seem to be irrelevant. It all boils down to what investors in the country's currency and government debt would do. So far, investors have given a pass to certain countries despite a growing deficit, and therefore the old notion that deficit financing does not really matter. But one can't be completely certain of that into the future - and investor psychology may have fundamentally altered with the Eurozone troubles.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12905205
G20 considers wider role for China's yuan
G20 leaders have moved towards agreeing that China's currency should have a wider role in global finance.
The G20 is to study whether to include the Chinese yuan within the basket of currencies that make up the IMF's Special Drawing Right.the Special Drawing Right, or SDR, is a quasi currency used within the IMF by its member countries.Some economists believe the SDR could one day become a global reserve currency alongside the US dollar.
Evolution
Speaking at the G20 summit in Nanjing, French President Nicolas Sarkozy suggested that given the importance of emerging economies such as China to global growth, their currencies should be added to the SDR basket."Without rules and supervision, the world runs the risk of being condemned to increasingly serious and severe crises," said President Sarkozy."It is clear that we must evolve toward a more flexible exchange rate system that will allow us to withstand shocks," he added.His comments were backed by US Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner who said he supported a change to SDR composition."Over time, we believe that currencies of large economies heavily used in international trade and financial transactions should become a part of the SDR basket," he said.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by suryag »

Guys have you heard about this endofamerica10.com ? All hot air or there is something to think of sounded convincing but i know zilch about economics
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

^ presume you meant endofamerica.com ?

Seems to be a standing example of the doomsday industry that has sprung up over the last year or so...in this particular case he is obviously plugging the research of his firm in the end - so the agenda is clear.

As regards the threat of hyperinflation, which is the basic scare scenario that is being hyped - research shows that it is only a possibility when the deficit as a % of total government spend (not GDP) reaches close to 40% and the deficit is fully monetized. Neither of these has been reached in the US yet - monetization of deficit amounts to around 13% of total US government spending.

This would, however, have been true if the US were a normal country. The fact of the US$ being the world's reserve currency makes the situation highly unique and brings its own sets of challenges. If substantial investors do move away from the US$ as the reserve currency - a big part of his scenario (excluding possibly the food riots etc) may very well play out.

The reserve currency status has brought in high rewards, and at the same time high risk to the American economy. The high risk is exemplified by the perpetual paranoia that increasing number of Americans are living in today that the world will one day refuse to honor the dollar's reserve currency status ! Since the US economy in trouble has implications for all nations - the world probably needs to work in coordination for a gradual shift to an alternative reserve currency, which at the same time avoids a hard landing for the American economy.

One question I myself have for other currency experts based on this video is - is it at all possible or likely that there could be a sudden overnight devaluation of the US$ imposed by the Fed - as opposed to any gradual market declines that would provide early warnings of any trend?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by VikramS »

For the D&G:
Some thought on who was being helped the most by the Fed

http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid ... aYu93WOJbQ
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Empty lots and roads from half-completed subdivisions in the Las Vegas suburb of Henderson are pictured. The average value of a home in Nevada on Jan. 1, 2008 was $246,000, according to data compiled by Zillow Inc., which has a proprietary index of home valuation. That number dropped to $131,000 on Dec. 1, 2010. (Source: Bloomberg)


http://www.bloomberg.com/video/67068654/


Nouriel Roubini, founder of Roubini Global Economics, discusses the earthquake in Japan and the European debt crisis. He talks with Maryam Nemazee on Bloomberg Television's "The Pulse." (Source: Bloomberg)

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/67533886/
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Prem »

Acharya San,
Nevada is the worst hit state in loosing real estate value. It shooted up too fast and fell faster than a falling rock. If some one wants to buy house near the strip in Vegas , time is now. This is the nearest place to jannat on earth.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by VikramS »

Very few people focus on the dynamics of real-estate pricing. In supply constrained areas like the Bay Area, there is a floor put by the buying power of people. People put a premium on quality of life (short commute, good schools) and as a result the better neighborhoods held up their value.


OTOH neighborhoods without the great schools, or longer commutes have lost a significant chunk. In the middle of a desert regions like Vegas or Pheonix where you there is a virtually limitless supply of land, the price should never rise significantly above the replacement costs of home.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Prem wrote:Acharya San,
Nevada is the worst hit state in loosing real estate value. It shooted up too fast and fell faster than a falling rock. If some one wants to buy house near the strip in Vegas , time is now. This is the nearest place to jannat on earth.

Over the next 15 years as baby boomers look to sell their homes or, at the very least downsize, the supply of for sale real estate will rise far more than the demand, pushing prices lower, especially for certain types of real estate since supply. This will be particularly critical for boomers who are looking to cash in the capital built up in their real estate holdings to fund their retirement.

Here is an examination of the coming demographic issues facing the real estate market:

http://viableopposition.blogspot.com/20 ... rfect.html
The baby boomers born in the late 1950s and early 1960s are likely to suffer the greatest price drops since, by the time they are ready to sell their homes, the supply of real estate for sale will be approaching its peak.



http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/ ... p-falling/
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

Harry S Dent's February 2011 Newsletter

LINK
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by devesh »

^^^ the bolded part at the end of page 4 and beginning of page 5 is important.

more interesting parts:
Right now China is in perhaps the greatest bubble seen to date. That bubble is in its final
stages—and it is built less on extreme debt ratios than by government and private overinvestment in
infrastructures, real estate, and industrial capacity.
Countries like India and China are likely to continue to raise interest rates and capital requirements
at banks short term to fight such inflationary trends. Meanwhile, governments in developed nations
are stimulating against deflationary trends. This is the paradox that is likely to come to a head in 2011-
2012.
China’s bubble is the last to peak. The slowing that began in Europe, with its sovereign debt crisis and
fiscal austerity from late April 2010 forward, and the slowing ahead in the U.S., from its mortgage and
debt crisis likely to hit from late 2011 forward, will trigger the bursting of the bubble in China and the
emerging countries. These countries, along with Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are feeding an
unprecedented infrastructure boom that makes the growth in Dubai look like child’s play. Rising
inflation is already challenging the bubble and may force the peak in growth even earlier. The emerging
world increasingly relies on exports to China, as growth in the developed world has slowed since late
2007. A slowing in China will reverberate around the emerging world, which is supplying them with
materials and energy to support its building bubble.
The private credit bubble does not even compare with the federal entitlement bubble, which saw its
greatest increase in Medicare drug benefits under George W. Bush in 2003. When the government
promises benefits it has not funded through savings and investments out of tax revenues, that action
creates effective debts or obligations for the future. That is why the U.S. government projects deficits
of $1 trillion plus for decades to come, even in the rosiest scenarios for economic growth and
government revenues—which have no chance of occurring under our scenario for a flat-to-declining
economy in the next decade, due to slowing demographic trends and deleveraging of debt. Therefore,
even the most conservative $46 trillion in unfunded liabilities admitted by the U.S. Treasury in 2009
is way too conservative.
The $42 trillion in private debt ultimately needs to be written down by about $20 trillion to fall back in line
with the pre-bubble levels of 2000, especially given that real estate and business values are down by as much
as 55% to 70%. The logic is that we simply erase the bubble levels in asset prices and debt levels before we
move on.
Keynesian economics was probably the worst innovation in economic history! Sometimes you have to
make mistakes to realize the truth. Keynes’s theory created both the illusion that you can grow forever
without down cycles (which has never worked out in reality, as such stimulus has only created greater volatility in longer-term cycles) and, more importantly, the imbalance wherein the economy would no
longer go through its natural cycle of slowdown, replenishing, and detox, just as the human body does
every night. That situation creates even greater imbalances in productive capacity and debt, which
ultimately forces an even bigger deflationary crisis, much as happened in the 1930s and as will happen
in the coming decade!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

This is for the philanthropists:
“Ooo, I’m not sure he’s done that. What he has done, and this is a great measure of the man’s wonder, is that he gave away two and a half cents for the first 70 years of his life- he gave away nothing- and then in one fell swoop gave almost all of his money thoughtlessly, to one guy. And from that moment on became the greatest advocate of philanthropy and pitched all the bumbling billionaires to do the same thing. That takes a special guy having given away nothing and then in one fell swoop ‘boom!’ he gives it all away and pitches the other yo-yos to give it away too. Now what does that say? I think that’s worth reflecting.”
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Singha »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12993318

portugal asks for EU bailout.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^So it begins....
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2011/03/24/h ... s-on-tape/

Hear the Rajaratnam Brothers on Tape
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

Acharya wrote:http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2011/03/24/h ... s-on-tape/

Hear the Rajaratnam Brothers on Tape
Unfortunately, Indian Americans have taken a disproportionate knock in the insider trading saga. Rajat Gupta, Anil Kumar... a number of reputations down the tube !!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by shyam »

Video worth watching.

Gold & Silver Insiders-When To Sell? Real Estate-When To Buy? Mike Maloney:



He expects silver to go through the roof. :twisted:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

The European Central Bank just hiked interest rates
25 basis points. This doesn't sound like much, but
it gives the Euro a clear lead over the US Dollar
where the Fed won't be raising rates until hyper-
inflation is already destroying our currency,

In other words, in the paper currency "race to the
bottom," the US Dollar is now #1 in a BIG way.

The US Dollar has only TWO lines of support left
before the BIG breakdown hits. At that point it's
"game over" for the greenback.

At our current rate of collapse this will hit within
three months. So if you have not already loaded
up on inflation hedges to prepare for a US Dollar
collapse
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^That hyperinflationary scare is mostly hyperventilatory BS. Gives honest-to-earth D&G a bad name.

The USD is going nowhere anytime soon. The euro, OTOH is toast. IMHO, when things goto the dogs after a likely bailout --> default domino rocks the PIIGS, the USD will attract 'safety premiums' all over again. FOlks then wouldn;t be looking to returns or profits, but just for security of capital.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by ramana »

Arjun wrote:
Acharya wrote:http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2011/03/24/h ... s-on-tape/

Hear the Rajaratnam Brothers on Tape
Unfortunately, Indian Americans have taken a disproportionate knock in the insider trading saga. Rajat Gupta, Anil Kumar... a number of reputations down the tube !!

Recall that guy who works for Warren Buffet who was doing tradin g on own account while negotiating a takeover by Buffet? Wasn't that insider trading or is it special circumustances?

How come the law wants to get Rajaratnam but lets the other guy go free?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by putnanja »

Ahead of BRICS meeting, China targets dollar power
Ahead of the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, China, India and South Africa) summit in its resort town of Sanya next week, China has put India and some of the other participants in a spot by proposing an agreement between the EXIM and development banks of all five countries to enable trade in local currencies instead of the US dollar.

The move is being seen as a clear affront to the US, one which was first attempted through an understanding between China and Russia during the height of the economic crisis two years ago. While the Reserve Bank of India is examining the proposal, sources said, India is unlikely to agree to give its consent in a hurry.
...
...
What has surprised most interlocutors about China’s move is that it comes after member countries had generally agreed not to make much out the Yuan exchange rate issue. This was a matter of concern for Beijing as it did not want BRICS to discuss an issue which is at the top Washington’s list of problems with China.

It was subsequently felt that BRICS should explore ways of economic cooperation based on areas of convergence than dwell on issues where there may be differences. But this move from Beijing has raised fears whether the effort is to project BRICS as an alternate rule-maker on global economic issues backed by the fact that these five countries are the biggest emerging economies of the world accounting for over 20 per cent of the world GDP.
...
...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by VikramS »

ramana:

They need to fry a few people to calm the masses. Mr. Bharara also has to build his credentials. Nothing better than hauling up a few desis to prove it.

And Raj was careless; boasting about his contacts in different boards etc. You have to learn to be very discreet in this business and Raj clearly was the opposite.

What is shocking is Rajat Gupta's involvement. But I guess he did not know that Raj was under scrutiny.

It will be hard to prove the insider trading charges against the Berkshire since the discussions to buy the company presumably started after he had invested.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by svinayak »

Some of my posts are missing.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Martin Wolf of Financial Times on Charlie Rose

Found him to be surprisingly pragmatic in his take on the US, UK, EURO region, and China. Some of you will find it interesting, not that any of it is totally new for regulars here. Worth a checkout if you haven't already.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by Arjun »

VikramS wrote:ramana:

They need to fry a few people to calm the masses. Mr. Bharara also has to build his credentials. Nothing better than hauling up a few desis to prove it.

And Raj was careless; boasting about his contacts in different boards etc. You have to learn to be very discreet in this business and Raj clearly was the opposite.

What is shocking is Rajat Gupta's involvement. But I guess he did not know that Raj was under scrutiny.

It will be hard to prove the insider trading charges against the Berkshire since the discussions to buy the company presumably started after he had invested.
Also Sokol cannot be compared to Rajaratnam. Even if Sokol's behavior is somewhat shady, at best it is a one-off incident - whereas the charge against Raj is that he built an entire business around it.

But it is somewhat surprising that the only major fund manager name indicted on insider trading turns out also to be the best known desi name in the business....Any case, if it manages to put the fear of God into others in the business, it is a job well done !
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown- (Nov 28 20

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Satya_anveshi wrote:Martin Wolf of Financial Times on Charlie Rose

Found him to be surprisingly pragmatic in his take on the US, UK, EURO region, and China. Some of you will find it interesting, not that any of it is totally new for regulars here. Worth a checkout if you haven't already.

New Interview of Martin Wolf here:

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11603

Also Joe Stiglitz interview

http://economistsview.typepad.com/econo ... the-1.html
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