MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2011 18:08

I wonder if manned nuclear strike platform Mirage2000N and ASMP missile had some special EMP hardening on its electronics side?

not sure if manned toss bomb delivery is viewed by IAF as a realistic role anymore....or they just need a shooter for a future nuke tipped ALCM?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Apr 2011 18:12

SaiK wrote:I think the libyan operation has ++ed Rafale, while EF2K on +0. We have to see more of A2G from the typhoons.

you wont, none of the typhoons involved are A2G configured

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2011 18:18

it seems no typhoon in squadron service with user nations have that capability ?

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 06 Apr 2011 18:52

It seems that F-18 E/F/G has been shortlisted. See the sudden change in tone regarding offset clauses. Boeing for longtime asking for changes in offset clauses so that civilian supplies also be counted as offsets. Probably Boeing if offering import of sections/parts for Boeing aircraft in lieu of 50% offset in military components and govt has taken it. If F-18 E/F/G is selected expect indigenous airframe, engines (to be used in LCA, AMCA and MRCA) and possibly sensors for AA/AG missiles. But strict no radar manufacturing and limited access to source codes. When force multipliers like P-8A has been selected and there might not be a problem with MRCA. JMT.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Apr 2011 19:22

Singha wrote:it seems no typhoon in squadron service with user nations have that capability ?

Then how did IAF manage to conduct all weapons tests?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Apr 2011 20:01

RIGHT TIME TO FIND WHO ARE OUR REAL FRIENDS

How about (a) friendly neighbourhood peaceful nuclear explosion(s) in the next say 2 - 3 weeks ?

Let us see how USA, Russia, UK, France, Germany and Sweden react. Let them decide the winner !!!

K

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2011 20:14

the EF surely has a few protos with the advertised capabilities... but there is no aesa radar on anything but the f-18. so all the spooky aesa capabilities like jamming, datalinks, combined a2g and a2a work remain just a TBD statements and no tests would have been done there too. likewise "will fire meteor" , "can fire the storm shadow" (do you think they would expend a $10 mil missile for a demo?)...

Maram · Post by **Maram** » 06 Apr 2011 20:21

Kersi D wrote:RIGHT TIME TO FIND WHO ARE OUR REAL FRIENDS

How about (a) friendly neighbourhood peaceful nuclear explosion(s) in the next say 2 - 3 weeks ?

Let us see how USA, Russia, UK, France, Germany and Sweden react. Let them decide the winner !!!

K

followed your posts on BR for very long tiime Kesri ji. The above post is true to good form of the author! we can also see if the thermonuclear device actually works! Sadly our leadership do not have that mettle !

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Apr 2011 20:55

There is absolutely no logic in the nuclear explosion argument. Friends and allies depends on what you want to chew and how you want to project your force.. all driven by policies.. and keep dreaming about nuclear explosion on the planet all you want, and it would only derail real discussion here..

France or Germany or Russia, everything depends on how we write the contract document, and how clever we are to chew them, and make sure they don't chew us in any way. Russians don't chew us initially and look very good on first purchase, but choke us down on parts and supplies, for which khan production lines are the best in the world. IN has been shown some models of Ef2k naval variant, but we have to see more of their A2G though.. not sure, what they really did test for this.

Rafale seems to be the most potent, pricey, but can be drafted to be most friendly, and less choking of them all. But, never know how EF2K is going to turn out in the coming exiting months for this mrca saga to end.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 06 Apr 2011 20:58

Singha wrote:I wonder if manned nuclear strike platform Mirage2000N and ASMP missile had some special EMP hardening on its electronics side?

not sure if manned toss bomb delivery is viewed by IAF as a realistic role anymore....or they just need a shooter for a future nuke tipped ALCM?

Isn't air delivered nuclear weapons a bit old fashioned and obsolete delivery method by now? I mean, when would they be used? After all there are SLBMs, MRBMs, ICBMs etc. Or would it be used as France's Force de Frappe as a "warning shot" (which is completely ridicoulus when going up against another nuclear power btw)?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Apr 2011 21:16

Henrik wrote:
Singha wrote:I wonder if manned nuclear strike platform Mirage2000N and ASMP missile had some special EMP hardening on its electronics side?

not sure if manned toss bomb delivery is viewed by IAF as a realistic role anymore....or they just need a shooter for a future nuke tipped ALCM?
Isn't air delivered nuclear weapons a bit old fashioned and obsolete delivery method by now? I mean, when would they be used? After all there are SLBMs, MRBMs, ICBMs etc. Or would it be used as France's Force de Frappe as a "warning shot" (which is completely ridicoulus when going up against another nuclear power btw)?

Not really. If sufficient air superiority is achieved, nuclear delivery through fighter a/cs could be very effectively used. If someone fires an IRBM, the other nation would know that it is facing a nuclear strike. No one fits conventional payloads on IRBM. But say if a bunch of Su-30s seem to be going towards an air base, it would seem like a conventional strike. Then, towards the end of the flight path, if a bunch of Su-30s break off and deviate to nuke a nearby place, the target Nation would get much less reaction time.
My point is that IRBMs can have only one meaning while a multirole a/c can be attacking for many reasons. So, it creates an opportunity of deception.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 06 Apr 2011 21:38

Gaur wrote:Not really. If sufficient air superiority is achieved, nuclear delivery through fighter a/cs could be very effectively used. If someone fires an IRBM, the other nation would know that it is facing a nuclear strike. No one fits conventional payloads on IRBM. But say if a bunch of Su-30s seem to be going towards an air base, it would seem like a conventional strike. Then, towards the end of the flight path, if a bunch of Su-30s break off and deviate to nuke a nearby place, the target Nation would get much less reaction time.
My point is that IRBMs can have only one meaning while a multirole a/c can be attacking for many reasons. So, it creates an opportunity of deception.

I see your point, but there's a but. You are forgetting about retaliatory SLBMs. Sure, you can use air-launched nuclear weapons in a surprise attack, but then what? After that you'd be showered with ICBMs, SLBMs etc. There's really no way to be absolutely sure you get all of the enemies retaliatory nukes in the "surprise attack". It sounds like a very risky endeavour.

Again, air superiority or not, you still risk retaliatory strikes, not to mention how India would achieve air-superiority against China for example?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2011 21:56

I would image it as more of a last ditch option if the limited inventory of land and sea missile platforms are taken out by a clever first strike or some glitch prevents their effective functioning like taking out some satellites and lack of stellar navigation systems that work purely on dual INS.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2011 21:58

true ICBMs btw never use GPS or take any sort of external update or signal after launch. they have internal INS and some star sensor pkg to make small corrections and thats it. external signals may be jammed or spoofed, so once u light the fuse they go off and 'do their thing' like single minded robots.

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 07 Apr 2011 02:41

you wont, none of the typhoons involved are A2G configured

Wrong. 4 Tiffies in Lybia have been shifted from a2a to a2g duty.

Directly from the British MoD website: http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Defen ... trophe.htm

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Apr 2011 03:00

good find march.. hope there is more to it? details of targets destroyed etc?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 07 Apr 2011 05:43

Henrik,
True, its a high risk option. Also, I was thinking more of Pakistan. I agree that this mode of nuclear delivery against China would be unpractical.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 07 Apr 2011 05:59

vcsekhar wrote: "It is a huge machine, very easy to spot from over 10nm visually..

I hope this is a typo. I can't see a 747 at 5 NM (34,000 ft) let alone a fighter one-third its size. I would not be able to see a lo-viz MKI even at 2 NM. But If my life depended on it, I'd say the same thing that vsekhar's buddy did.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 07 Apr 2011 06:18

Hope its Not OT. Now a Canadian defence analyst frowns at the F-35 JSF.

http://www.theprovince.com/technology/f ... story.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Apr 2011 07:49

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... uties.html

Approval for some of the aircraft to perform air-to-surface missions could lead to them using their Raytheon Paveway II/Enhanced Paveway II precision-guided bombs in anger for the first time.

some mixed messages here:
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 301081002/

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 08:40

thats more like it! someone was reading BR

vcsekhar · Post by **vcsekhar** » 07 Apr 2011 10:55

Victor wrote:
vcsekhar wrote: "It is a huge machine, very easy to spot from over 10nm visually..
I hope this is a typo. I can't see a 747 at 5 NM (34,000 ft) let alone a fighter one-third its size. I would not be able to see a lo-viz MKI even at 2 NM. But If my life depended on it, I'd say the same thing that vsekhar's buddy did.

No its not a typo, I was surprised too. The distances that you can see when you are up in the air are very different from when you are down on the ground. There is no haze to hamper visibility.
The low viz camo is used precisely for this reason, but you cannot camo the canopy and it is usually the most distinctive in the air when the sun reflects off it. In addition you can also see the smoke trail for miles and miles. That is why low smoke engines are so important.
And once again, Mark 1 eyeball is still a hugely important sensor for the pilots and they usually have better than 20/20 vision.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 13:10

saburo sakai and the initial crop of IJN elite airwings are said to have trained themselves to spot a/c at long distance, look away into cockpit and instantly look back at the exact same spot to re-acquire the target....you know normally how its so tough to spot a small moving object among banks of cloud and ground background...but they trained for it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Apr 2011 16:20

vcsekhar wrote: No its not a typo, I was surprised too. The distances that you can see when you are up in the air are very different from when you are down on the ground. There is no haze to hamper visibility.

I don't dispute the fact that haze is less at high altitude. However I have read (and heard from IAF pilots) time and again that haze is much greater over Indian skies than temperate (European skies). Need to check on figures like 20 nm/36 km. At those distances vapor trails are more likely to be visible - but then again vapor trails are far more common in temperate climes.

Living in the UK (1980s) - on a clear winter day under the flight path of the trans-atlantic routes (near where the Lockerbie plane went down) could typically see 8 or 10 vapor trails simultaneously. In Bangalore - on a clear winter day - I am surprised to see even one vapor trail and even that is transient and never stretches from horizon to horizon. Using a 250 mm zoom lens (my pride and joy in that era) - I could still only get a small image of the aircraft silhouetted against the sky and realise that it was 4 engined - with 2 vapor trails from 2 engines coalescing on one side.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2011 16:31

vapor trails will be prominent over tibet and kashmir though.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Apr 2011 16:33

OT
Here is a scan of a dusty/fungus ridden transparency of a 1989 photo of a vapor trail producing 747 using a 250 mm lens at full zoom. The plane was nearly invisible to the naked eye and was probably between 31 to 36000 feet (10-11 km)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Apr 2011 16:35

Singha wrote:vapor trails will be prominent over tibet and kashmir though.

Possibly - but we see so many photos of fighters over the Himmer-layers (Himayalas

) and not one shows a vapor trail.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Apr 2011 16:49

vapour trails are not from the engines
they are the vortices shed from the wings (always two)
sometimes the engine exhausts will be in the right conditions to trail, but they will merge with the wing vortices and only two will remain

vcsekhar · Post by **vcsekhar** » 07 Apr 2011 17:34

Lalmohan wrote:vapour trails are not from the engines
they are the vortices shed from the wings (always two)
sometimes the engine exhausts will be in the right conditions to trail, but they will merge with the wing vortices and only two will remain

Contrails are from the engines, in fact, the fighter pilots have prior information from their Met department as to the vapor condition in the sky and at which altitude contrails will be produced and they will avoid flying at those altitudes.
The vortices from the wing tips and leading edges are visible at low levels in certain environmental conditions.
Mr.Wikipedia has a good article on contrails, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail

vcsekhar · Post by **vcsekhar** » 07 Apr 2011 17:46

I was also surprised about the distance numbers, but, the difference in eyesight is pretty remarkable between civilians and fighter pilots. For example, i was at a air show with my friend and he was able to visually pick up fighters (Mig21's and Jag's) way before anyone else in the group. Where we could not identify the direction of the jet sound, he was easily able to do it. Training showed. The saburo sakai story really shows the difference in trained eyesight.
Another anecdotal "evidence", i play golf with some of these guys and I can track the ball in the sky but loose it when it comes into the vegetation or built up areas (very difficult to track a small white ball against white and off white buildings), they have no such trouble. (Not that I have great eye sight but these guys are something else).
His statement was from actual air combat exercises, so its hard for me to find fault in it. I have no idea how the view would be from a cockpit of a single engine fighter (i would love to find out

), but, I am pretty sure that the air would be a lot clearer than at ground levels.

shiv wrote:
vcsekhar wrote: No its not a typo, I was surprised too. The distances that you can see when you are up in the air are very different from when you are down on the ground. There is no haze to hamper visibility.
I don't dispute the fact that haze is less at high altitude. However I have read (and heard from IAF pilots) time and again that haze is much greater over Indian skies than temperate (European skies). Need to check on figures like 20 nm/36 km. At those distances vapor trails are more likely to be visible - but then again vapor trails are far more common in temperate climes.

Living in the UK (1980s) - on a clear winter day under the flight path of the trans-atlantic routes (near where the Lockerbie plane went down) could typically see 8 or 10 vapor trails simultaneously. In Bangalore - on a clear winter day - I am surprised to see even one vapor trail and even that is transient and never stretches from horizon to horizon. Using a 250 mm zoom lens (my pride and joy in that era) - I could still only get a small image of the aircraft silhouetted against the sky and realise that it was 4 engined - with 2 vapor trails from 2 engines coalescing on one side.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Apr 2011 18:18

vcsekhar wrote:I was also surprised about the distance numbers, but, the difference in eyesight is pretty remarkable between civilians and fighter pilots.

Well fighter pilots must have good eyesight and training too. But I recall from when I had great eyesight that there are some things that one can't really see. I think it should be easy to calculate the angle subtended at the eye from a 20 meter long aircraft from a distance of 20,000 meters and the actual size of the image 2 cm behind on the retina. Could someone figure that out? I think that would produce an image that is 20 microns across on the retina. Not sure if that is "pickupable" by any human eye.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 07 Apr 2011 19:34

IAF officer to be court-martialled for bribery

New Delhi : An Indian Air Force (IAF) officer, allegedly caught accepting a bribe from a foreign defence firm during the Bangalore air show February, may soon face a court martial with a court of inquiry holding him blameworthy in the case.

The IAF has set the ball rolling for the court martial with the summary of evidence being ordered against Wing Commander A.K. Thakur, accused of demanding and accepting Rs.20,000 from a foreign aircraft manufacturer, competing in the $10.4-billion combat jet tender, an IAF officer told IANS here. Summary of evidence is the first step towards a formal court martial.

It was alleged that the officer had taken the money to provide a vantage position for the company's aircraft in the static display at the Yelahanka air base, where the five-day AeroIndia-2011 show was held. Thakur, a transport pilot, was responsible for organising the display. The court of inquiry was held in Bangalore after the officer was nabbed red-handed following a tip-off from the French aviation company to the Defence Exhibition Organisation.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 07 Apr 2011 21:39

shukla wrote:IAF officer to be court-martialled for bribery

New Delhi : An Indian Air Force (IAF) officer, allegedly caught accepting a bribe from a foreign defence firm during the Bangalore air show February, may soon face a court martial with a court of inquiry holding him blameworthy in the case.

The IAF has set the ball rolling for the court martial with the summary of evidence being ordered against Wing Commander A.K. Thakur, accused of demanding and accepting Rs.20,000 from a foreign aircraft manufacturer, competing in the $10.4-billion combat jet tender, an IAF officer told IANS here. Summary of evidence is the first step towards a formal court martial.

It was alleged that the officer had taken the money to provide a vantage position for the company's aircraft in the static display at the Yelahanka air base, where the five-day AeroIndia-2011 show was held. Thakur, a transport pilot, was responsible for organising the display. The court of inquiry was held in Bangalore after the officer was nabbed red-handed following a tip-off from the French aviation company to the Defence Exhibition Organisation.

In a nation full of politicians/bureaucrats/judges gulping thousands of crores.. somebody's life is being destroyed for 20,000 buks.

I know you will say, its not about money, he is not fit to serve with such low morale standard blah blah.. whatever I don't think its fair. Different stick for different people! What kind of law is that.

If he lives in such a society, guided by such "leaders" I think he should legally/constitutionally get a second chance.

(Sorry OT)

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 07 Apr 2011 22:10

Recent article referring to early thinking of GoI on MRCA
http://www.thehindu.com/news/the-india- ... 576918.ece

4. (C) The Joint Secretary went on to describe Indian defense correspondents as the most dubious of change in the Indo-US relationship. To make in-roads into this constituency, he suggested that DOD/DSCA Director LTG Kohler speak to a group of defense correspondents during his April 20-22 visit to New Delhi. PolCouns described a roundtable discussion for defense writers hosted by the Embassy on April 8, during which analysts were divided about whether the Indian Air Force (IAF) is truly interested in acquiring a US multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA). Some analysts believe that the IAF is only interested in US participation in the MRCA tender to bid down the price of competitors' planes, especially the French Mirage. PolCouns expressed greater concern, however, about public comments from some GOI sources that reinforce doubts about US reliability that may negatively impact the IAF decision. The Charge recalled the most recent example in a meeting between Transportation Secretary Mineta and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)

Strategically that would make sense - i.e. inclusion of F-teens to make it competitive. If the Euro birds do not come down in price, F-teens would still be an excellent option to add to IAF.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Apr 2011 22:54

OT: it is very good to have our forces clean and pure, but why not have the same yardstick for raja kalmadi and gangs? /OT

--

rafale in ivory coast.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42443005/ns ... ws-europe/

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Apr 2011 00:00

SaiK wrote:OT: it is very good to have our forces clean and pure, but why not have the same yardstick for raja kalmadi and gangs? /OT

--

Hah! Hah! That is known as cognitive dissonance. There is double stds and all kinds of excuse is being given. Some even defend the ruling group for this

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 08 Apr 2011 01:21

Marten wrote:OT:
He represents an organization that is the very best (and therefore incorruptible) of India. There is no leeway - we expect the polity to be corrupt and smell like pigs, but the forces must remain above board. They are the ideal to which citizens will look up.

General Deepak Kapoor, General N C Vij, former Navy chief Admiral Madhavendra Singh, Vice-Chief Gen Shantanu Choudhary they all have multiple cozy residences/bungalows/castles.. yet all of them illegally/immorally took flats meant for the widows of those who fell in Kargil. We now know all that as "Adarsh Scam". Tell me one name who got court marshaled! They all are leaders of that same organization. (Leave the dirty ministers and babus aside)

And then there is this nobody.. who just got heck of 20,000 one rupee coins and everybody wants to make his life a living hell!

All I want to say is.. I don't see justice here!

Justice by definition means 'fairness in the way people are treated or decisions are make'. And if you Let the big daddy go and hang the poor man.. I don't see any justice in that.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Apr 2011 01:40

how do you think they can hide higher corruption otherwise? one's denial of justice (mostly poor) is another one's illegal monetary gains (mostly rich)./OT.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 08 Apr 2011 02:48

Boreas wrote:And then there is this nobody.. who just got heck of 20,000 one rupee coins and everybody wants to make his life a living hell!
And if you Let the big daddy go and hang the poor man.. I don't see any justice in that.

Since the big fishes have escaped, so let's become totally shameless now

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 08 Apr 2011 06:16

SaiK wrote:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... uties.html

Approval for some of the aircraft to perform air-to-surface missions could lead to them using their Raytheon Paveway II/Enhanced Paveway II precision-guided bombs in anger for the first time.

You don't think....

"The commander of Libya's rebel forces has said Nato apologised for mistakenly hitting a column of rebel tanks near the eastern town of Ajdabiya.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13008244

Hey! pretty soon we'll have weekly apologies like in Afghanistan.