Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2011 01:51

there is every reason to do so, most of all because the figures are impossible. the mahabhrat we have today is not the same as the one written a couple of thousand years ago, when printing was unknown, books were copied by hand by men of letters and more often than not each added his own edits and additions to make the story sound more impressive. what was 10,000 soldiers (say) becomes 100,000 in the hands of one editor and the next one still not satisfied goes on adding 0's.

even worse, the 'copy-writers' were not military men and had little idea of what was plausible and what not and made exaggerations that turned whole descriptions nonsensical.
this is particularly apparent in this case. 1:3:5 is the ratio of elephant or chariot (not both) : cavalry : infantry in elephant or chariot units of classical Indian armies. this is how the elephant or chariot units were deployed, with a guard of 3 cavalry and 5 infantry each, but the rest of the army was NOT organised in this ratio. in a cavalry starved region like India, cavalry at more than 10% of infantry in a large army is very unlikely. even elsewhere this was true, alexander's army at 30% cavalry was considered something novel. only the central asian nomadic tribes had cavalry major armies. cavalry at 60% of infantry as given in mahabharat is simply IMPOSSIBLE, 25 % chariots and elephants even more IMPOSSIBLE for India.

each chariot needs 2 horses if not four, that's 3 per chariot on average. so, for each 110,000 infantry you would need 131,000 horses + remounts (even @ lower estimate of 10% that is 13,000) ~ 145,000.
considering the sizes of Indian armies (400,000 +) you would need 580,000 adult warhorses for one kingdom alone, easily a substantial fraction of the world population of warhorses at that time, let alone India which had few good horses and had to import from persia, bactria and arabia. chandragupta's army had 600,000 infantry, for them you would need > 700,000 horses, that still leaves out southern kingdoms like pandyas.

we see similar cases of ridiculous exaggerations in writings by greek authors, who inflated the figures of enemy armies ten or even hundred fold !! there is no reason to accept such numbers as fact without filtering.

arthashastra is a much better guide in this respect, being a manual it is far less prone to decorative exaggerations than books on religion. the 1:3:5 ratio is lucidly explained in it without any of the pitfalls some mahabharat editor must have made during its hundreds of copying.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Apr 2011 02:37

Can we go for a compromise? Apart from excessive imagination, the numbers could be means of expressing and codifying other information - for example astronomic ones - within the narrative of battle. There are such interpretations of Homer. Moreover, excessive imagination in numbers need not rule out the reality of the conflict, as again Homer's Troy is being found more and more archaeologically feasible. No such luck with MB as yet - but what if in the future!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2011 02:46

B'ji, what I am posting is the compromise version.

all I am saying is not to take the numbers at face value.

about troy, other than it existed what has been confirmed ? the actual numbers from greek sources for army strength are almost never taken at face value, take gaugamela for example.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Apr 2011 02:50

From wiki
1-Akshauhini
21870-Chariots x 2 = 43740 horses
21870-War Elephants X 5
65610-Horses with Soldiers
109350-Infantry Soldiers

Total = 109,350 horses per Akshauhini = x18 = 1,968,300 horses in entire Mahabharata war.
***
I was reading about Vijayanagara empire and it is said to have 32,600 horses (The fighting men numbered about 736,000 with 32,600 horses and 550 elephants). This is about an empire that had to import horses. Mahabharata war involved entire asia region (not modern India: Read the list of kings submitted to Dharmaraja's emperorship in Rajasuya ) upto the foothills of modern Europe.

Why is it incomprehensible? Today's horse population is estimated to be around 50 million (when horses are not part of most of social life).

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Apr 2011 03:13

Rahul M wrote:B'ji, what I am posting is the compromise version. all I am saying is not to take the numbers at face value.

about troy, other than it existed what has been confirmed ? the actual numbers from greek sources for army strength are almost never taken at face value, take gaugamela for example.

As for Troy, archaeology appears to confirm Homer's description of the city, and a possible diplomatic communication fragment that indicates it was a frontier contest point between two aspiring powers - the Hittites and the Greeks. It was also supposedly a wealthy bronze age trading point. There are also indications of conflict in a particular period and rebuilding. So some conflict over control of the city is likely. [No confirmation of Helen yet - I agree, that would be real intersting!] - But hey, even here "feminist archeology/history" says that the then culture around eastern Med did allow "powerful women" to put their finger in politics as many Bronze age civilizations around the place had powerful positions of women with magical powers [perhaps an even older matriarchal legacy]. These women would appear in public feasts as elite women would appear [as seen in painted vase] with exposed breasts and painted face and "ahem ahem" and were also allowed a degree of "free mixing". This could be the basis of certain passages in Homer's description of Helen's marriage.

But then again the war-machines [siege engines] are supposed to be the idea behind the infamous horse - but which are supposed to be "impossible" at that period and a later invention. Unless of course we get pieces of the "horse" this will be fought over.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2011 03:24

19.5 lakh horses !! in India of a few thousand years back ?! and this is a lower estimate because a) it doesn't take into account remounts b) Indian chariots were mostly pulled by 4 horses. and you are telling me it is not impossible ?

even at the height of their power, mongol armies, all horsemen for all intents and purposes could only field 150,000 odd cavalry. and this is a region that is the richest and most bountiful, not to mention original source of horses !! in India, only the western parts of sindh, western punjab and afghanistan had good horse breeds, that too not in such astronomical numbers. rest of India simply didn't have much in the way of horses, so much so that horses brought into those areas were quickly killed by diseases.
in alexander's time, the entire population of nisean horses, one of the primary warhorse breeds of the ancient world was all of 60,000, including horses unfit for war.

>> upto the foothills of modern Europe.
errr ?

>> Today's horse population is estimated to be around 50 million (when horses are not part of most of social life).
wrong, very wrong. horses are very much a part of social and even economic life. what % of modern horses live in the wild ? that should tell you who keeps horses and why. today's horse population is many times that of the ancient world simply because human population has exploded compared to the ancient world.

>> I was reading about Vijayanagara empire and it is said to have 32,600 horses (The fighting men numbered about 736,000 with 32,600 horses and 550 elephants
precisely, and what is the ratio between infantry and cavalry ?

less than 5 % ?

>> This is about an empire that had to import horses.
ALL major Indian kingdoms and empires had to import horses or go without them. all except the western provinces.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Apr 2011 03:30

Rahul M and Rama Y ji,
look up precessional cycles, perturbation of ecliptic, and apsidal [perihelion] precession cycles of the earth around the sun. They would roughly correspond to the values in years.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2011 03:43

values in years of what ? even allowing a connection to astronomy it doesn't make the numbers correct in military sense does it ?

it's quite possible that some editor 'modified' the numbers to suit his taste in beauty of numbers, the fact that sum of the digits add up to 18 for example. that doesn't make sense from a military POV however, which is all I am saying.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Apr 2011 03:49

Rahul M wrote: if you want I can add a few comments in the ancient military thread in mil forum.

Would appreciate your inputs on that thread.

Thanks

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Apr 2011 04:54

RahulM ji

You are missing the main point.

The Bharat of Mahabharat times extends from todays South-east-asia to China/magnolia to frontiers of Russia to foothills of europe (yes - read Mahabharat Turkey was a satrap of Bharatiya emperor) to Middle-east.Then where is the export-import business?

Yes Vijayanagara empire has 5% of the total cavalry of MB war. Why that surprise. Read the kingdoms that took Kaurava side and the kingdoms on Pandava side. They are more than 20 times of Vijayanagara empire. Today's India itself 4-5 times Vijayanagara empire.

MB also provides details of who came with how much army.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Apr 2011 06:23

Rahul M wrote:values in years of what ? even allowing a connection to astronomy it doesn't make the numbers correct in military sense does it ?

it's quite possible that some editor 'modified' the numbers to suit his taste in beauty of numbers, the fact that sum of the digits add up to 18 for example. that doesn't make sense from a military POV however, which is all I am saying.

No, it need not be taken as giving a military handbook - if that is what you mean!

My point is entirely different, that the MB is not claiming to be a military manual, and hence its military details should not be used literally or be held against its authors. However, dismissing the figures may be interpreted by some people as the whole thing being nonsense, and people will not think that the numbers might have been deliberately used to encode important astronomical quantities or other information. In that case, disconnect from reality would be deliberate and not wishful addition of digits.

Moreover, the finer points of rhetoric or logic, and the intricate but consistent complexity of narrative construction, should really make us sit up and think whether the people who wrote this stuff down were that dumb as to not think of the possibility of listeners doubting and ridiculing such fantastic military claims.

My first exposure to MB came as a child from maternal grandfather, whose words I still remember : "MB is repository of knowledge first formulated to be learnt by heart and carried on through generations. But it has layers of meaning, and not all layers are meant for everyone. Those who already know or are initiated would know how to interpret the numbers and allegories, and use the slokas as a memory device. You should repeat reading the MB as you gain in other areas of knowledge, and gradually more meanings will appear." He also hinted at the astronomical angle. Some of the Saraswats have a tradition of these alternative interpretations.

precession of the equinoxes with respect to the perihelion approximately 21,636 years. Inclination of the plane of the ecliptic has a cycle of approximately 70,000 years. Apsidal precession increases the anomalistic year slightly longer than the sidereal year. It takes about 112,000 years for the ellipse to revolve once relative to the fixed stars.

Comparing this with the numbers,
21870-Chariots x 2 = 43740 horses
21870-War Elephants X 5
65610-Horses with Soldiers
109350-Infantry Soldiers,

the first number of 21,870 is quite close to the basic adjusted perihelion cycle of 21,636 [I think Munjala's modified method gives the same value]. The number 65,610 is also quite close to 70,000 for the inclination of ecliptic cycle. [This cycle has actually quite a bit of variation though]. The ellipsoidal revolution of 112,000 is close to 109,350. The figures in MB could have been adjusted so that 1:3:5 could be a further memory aid.

Added : the obliquity of the ecliptic varies roughly in a cycle of 41,000 years, thus the chariot-horse relation could be a further indicator of this cycle. The fact that Indian astronomers were calculating quite accurate values of precessional quantities is seen in the standard later astronomical texts. So the MB could be reflecting knowledge from an earlier period when perhaps calculations were less accurate and more rough.

naren · Post by **naren** » 09 Apr 2011 09:32

(B ji, I thought this might interest you)

Autobiography_of_a_Yogi/Chapter_16

Sri Yukteswar discovered the mathematical application of a 24,000-year equinoctial cycle to our present age. {FN16-4} The cycle is divided into an Ascending Arc and a Descending Arc, each of 12,000 years. Within each Arc fall four YUGAS or Ages, called KALI, DWAPARA, TRETA, and SATYA, corresponding to the Greek ideas of Iron, Bronze, Silver, and Golden Ages.

My guru determined by various calculations that the last KALI YUGA or Iron Age, of the Ascending Arc, started about A.D. 500. The Iron Age, 1200 years in duration, is a span of materialism; it ended about A.D. 1700. That year ushered in DWAPARA YUGA, a 2400-year period of electrical and atomic-energy developments, the age of telegraph, radio, airplanes, and other space-annihilators.

The 3600-year period of TRETA YUGA will start in A.D. 4100; its age will be marked by common knowledge of telepathic communications and other time-annihilators. During the 4800 years of SATYA YUGA, final age in an ascending arc, the intelligence of a man will be completely developed; he will work in harmony with the divine plan.

A descending arc of 12,000 years, starting with a descending Golden Age of 4800 years, then begins {FN16-5} for the world; man gradually sinks into ignorance. These cycles are the eternal rounds of MAYA, the contrasts and relativities of the phenomenal universe. {FN16-6} Man, one by one, escapes from creation's prison of duality as he awakens to consciousness of his inseverable divine unity with the Creator.

Master enlarged my understanding not only of astrology but of the world's scriptures. Placing the holy texts on the spotless table of his mind, he was able to dissect them with the scalpel of intuitive reasoning, and to separate errors and interpolations of scholars from the truths as originally expressed by the prophets.

{FN16-4} A series of thirteen articles on the historical verification of Sri Yukteswar's YUGA theory appeared in the magazine EAST-WEST (Los Angeles) from September, 1932, to September, 1933.

{FN16-5} In the year A.D. 12,500.

{FN16-6} The Hindu scriptures place the present world-age as occurring within the KALI YUGA of a much longer universal cycle than the simple 24,000-year equinoctial cycle with which Sri Yukteswar was concerned. The universal cycle of the scriptures is 4,300,560,000 years in extent, and measures out a Day of Creation or the length of life assigned to our planetary system in its present form. This vast figure given by the rishis is based on a relationship between the length of the solar year and a multiple of Pi (3.1416, the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle).

The life span for a whole universe, according to the ancient seers, is 314,159,000,000,000 solar years, or "One Age of Brahma."

Scientists estimate the present age of the earth to be about two billion years, basing their conclusions on a study of lead pockets left as a result of radioactivity in rocks. The Hindu scriptures declare that an earth such as ours is dissolved for one of two reasons: the inhabitants as a whole become either completely good or completely evil. The world-mind thus generates a power which releases the captive atoms held together as an earth.

Dire pronouncements are occasionally published regarding an imminent "end of the world." The latest prediction of doom was given by Rev. Chas. G. Long of Pasadena, who publicly set the "Day of Judgment" for Sept. 21, 1945. UNITED PRESS reporters asked my opinion; I explained that world cycles follow an orderly progression according to a divine plan. No earthly dissolution is in sight; two billion years of ascending and descending equinoctial cycles are yet in store for our planet in its present form. The figures given by the rishis for the various world ages deserve careful study in the West; the magazine TIME (Dec. 17, 1945, p. 6) called them "reassuring statistics."

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 10 Apr 2011 23:39

Ramo’ vigrahavan Dharma: (the story of Sita Swayamvaram)

A free translation to Sri K. Krishna Mohan's story in Eenadu Sunday edition 10Apr'2011

“Dear teacher, who is this “I”?” asked Sri Ramachandra.

Viswamitra looked at affectionately at the sixteen year old boy walking next to him. Lakshmana is walking two feet away from them, carefully watching around; his focus is entirely on the surroundings.

“How did you get this doubt Dasaradhi?” asked Viswamitra.

“That is unnecessary dear teacher. Since the answer is elusive, it has become a huge doubt” said Rama.

Then didn’t you ask this question to your family teacher, Vasishta?

I asked him, but he said I am not old enough to know.

Nothing wrong in him saying that, that is his duty (dharma)..!

“… does it mean I cannot find the answer in near term?” asked Rama.

“definitely Rama, but before that I will tell you something. Learn it attentively”.

“Please gurudeva” said Rama curiously…

“Knowledge is like Sun. That is highly illuminating. One should be ready to face the associated heat if one is interested in getting that illumination. Answers to man’s spiritual pursuit comes at a cost in their enjoyment of materialistic pleasures. You are a prince. It is better you wait till you learn your princely duty, before you venture into learning about self. Statecraft can be learned easily. That is coming to you in blood as ancestral property. That will be taught thru your family-teacher. Protecting your people, and being prepared {Preparedness is the key point. The king has to protect his kingdom when enemy comes to the war or when the enemy is week. He cannot say I am not prepared and let the society take the brunt of invasion}for that all the time is the root principle of that Princely dharma. Did you understand that?” {The objective of the guru is not only assessing the student's capacity to absorb a certain level of knowledge. It is his duty to divert the student to fulfil his social obligations, before attempting the spiritual aspects of self. Even then the student must be thoroughly validated for his preparedness.}

“That I learned in childhood itself dear teacher. I took care of my brothers and servants all the time. I observed my father’s rule. I by hearted the principles of state craft from guru Vasishtha. There is no Rama without that Dharma.” said Rama sincerely.

“Good dear son! now your question is “who am I”, right? Rishis contemplated and meditated on many questions that came to man’s mind since beginning of time. The have traveled far in that purpose. I too have traveled in their way following them. Your guru Vasishtha is Brahmarshi. He does know the answer to your question {Asserting and reasserting the value of parents, teachers to the student. Rama should never doubt the qualification of his guru, Vashistha, in his denying the answer to Rama's question.}. Man’s heart realizing the minuteness of attachments, after observing them attentively, tries to get rid of them. In such a state this princely-duty too appears very small and meaningless. That is the state of awareness coming from self-realization. By attempting to gain self-awareness, one gets away from their princely-duty.{Ones again,the focus on social stability by maintaining varna-ashrama dharma. Without society there is no opportunity for the seeker to sustain and pursue self-liberation}” Said Viswamitra.

“Dear teacher I will not let that happen. Perhaps guru Vashistha must have thought the same and commented that I am too young for that knowledge. My attempt is to know the answer to “who am I?”. I will not go beyond that.” Pleaded Rama.

OK. Let us take a small break hear.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Apr 2011 01:01

naren ji,
thanks! Yukteswar's theory or rather logic is actually quite interesting because it renews our awareness of the possibility of many different cycles that were thought of in ancient times. Moreover, a lot of "fractal" thinking went into this too - that is larger cycles reflected in smaller cycles etc. the principle has persisted in jyotish - for example in the "amsa" chakras's and the dasha-antardasha-pratyantardasha cycles.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Apr 2011 04:47

Continuation of "Ramo Vigrahavan Dharma:" translation

“Dear Lakshmana, do you see the stream over there; Could you please bring some fresh water with this Kamandala after taking care of your thirst?” requested Visawamitra.

“Sure revered teacher”, saying Lakshmana moved towards the stream.

“Rama, let us observe what is happening by thinking “I” and by not thinking “I” using a small example… Now the body felt thirsty. Eyes looked around for water. Ears heard the sound of stream. Legs walked towards it. Eyes saw the flowing water. Legs walked into the stream. Skin relaxed with the touch of cold water. Hands picked some water, and lips slurped it. Water dropped in to the stomach and the discomfort of thirst disappeared.

This is the process of taking care of thirst. Here mind acted as the coordinator for various body parts for a bodily need. This can be observed as a natural process. Is there any need to think of “I” in this process? No, right?. Then where is this “I” coming from? Mind acts as the coordinator for various interactions between various bodily organs. If you observe closely there is no mention of “I” in the process of reminding various organs of bodily nature. Because it doesn’t exist. This “I” is just a feeling. It is the pronoun of the combination of one’s body, and mental activities.

For someone who lives alone away from social system there is no need of “I”. In the language that is born out of social necessity, the “I” plays the role of separate one from the other.

The “I” is an artificial construct born in the mind, separate from it (the mind), which is the coordinator of various bodily organs. It is an interesting departure for this “I” to take control of the mind and the bodily organs the mind controls, and the subsequent consequences.

So what is the effect of this artificial construct of “I” in controlling the real construct of mind and body? That is of many varieties. All the Trisanku pleasures that we enjoy are results of that “I”. They are often useful to the body. But all these things are required to the “I”. Not only those useful things, that “I” wants many more. Yet, we can’t say that “I” is nothing but the convergence of only negative consequences. When that “I” feeling joins intellect and becomes dictatorial it will have positive results/consequences. But there never exists a situation where there are no negative consequences in the presence of this “I”.

Only yogis and wise know that the essential concept of “I” (for commoners) must be let-go.”

“Do you follow me Rama?” asked Viswamitra.

“Almost revered teacher” said Rama.

“This is a never ending search. Many questions come out of this. It takes lot of time to address those questions. By that, your age-dharma is getting disturbed. So let us stop for now with this dear Ramachandra” said the sage.

Lakshmana brought some stream water with Kamandala for Viswamitra first. Later he brought some water for Rama in a folded leaf.

“Lakshmana, you too relax. We will start after an couple of hours (Ghadiya?)” said Viswamitra relaxing under a large tree getting into meditation. Rama laid under the shadow of the tree. Lakshmana stood a little far observing the surroundings carefully.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 11 Apr 2011 17:30

^^^
perhaps no man is more qualified to speak of the egoistic nature of man. the feeling of "I", "me", etc need to be quelled completely for Brahma-gyana to shine. it took Vishwamitra thousands of years. even for a man like him, Indra's tricks with Urvashi/Rambha were too much to control. but eventually he gained mastery and became the Chief-Rishi for Gayatri mantra.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 11 Apr 2011 20:15

Coming to calculation of the force size etc, look at the forces available to the Vijayanagara in say Battle of Raichur and look at the size of Indian Army at the time of say Indo China war. Why are we assuming that there are no horses in India. What happened to the Horse breeds used by the Maratas. I think it is nearly extinct. Horses do have a important place and to say out right that they are not there in the no mentioned in MB may not be true.

One thing we find at in Ramayana also is the statement by Dasaradha that he will come with his Akshohini to protect the Yagna of Vishwamithra instead of sending Rama and Lakshmana alone, which means Dasaradha has such forces with him even at that time.

Magadha and its associate kings could field 18 of such divisions some 17 times against Madhura of Sri Krishana and the Bagawan had destroyed all these forces. Size of the forces therefore is dependant on the level of militarization of the states and from what I read all Janapadas are fully committed to warfare in those times also.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Apr 2011 20:31

NR, there is a disease native to India called hoof and mouth disease that afflicts cattle and horses. Invariably the iported horse used to die due to this. The Maratha horse was more like a pony. The Rajasthan horse wasnt adaptable to rest of India. Only advances in 19th century veteranary medicine increased the horse population.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Apr 2011 00:50

RamaY wrote:RahulM ji

You are missing the main point.

Yes Vijayanagara empire has 5% of the total cavalry of MB war. Why that surprise.

ramay ji, on the contrary, you are missing the complete point.

I said compare the ratio of cavalry to infantry in the vijaynagar army, not that given in MB. it is less than 5 % and actually very typical of Indian armies, they used elephants to compensate the lack of horses. even elsewhere, this % never crossed 30-40% other than for the central asian armies and on a few occasions rajput armies(that too mostly because their infantry could not always catch up on the march)
this, in medieval times when both India and the world had far more horses than in the ancient days.

The Bharat of Mahabharat times extends from todays South-east-asia to China/magnolia to frontiers of Russia to foothills of europe (yes - read Mahabharat Turkey was a satrap of Bharatiya emperor) to Middle-east.Then where is the export-import business?

you need to present a valid source to convince me. that's not what I remember from the MB.

Read the kingdoms that took Kaurava side and the kingdoms on Pandava side. They are more than 20 times of Vijayanagara empire. Today's India itself 4-5 times Vijayanagara empire.

oh dear, todays India also has MANY MANY times the population of vijaynagar kingdom, so what ? simply put, there wasn't enough horses, let alone war horses in the ancient world to supply 19.5 lakhs (by highly conservative estimates if we take MB literally) to India alone.

the problem here is just this, even being unaware of any aspect of ancient cavalry or of horse-breeds (only a small % of breeds were any good for use in warfare) you are insisting that MB's data is correct just because it is in MB. conveniently ignoring the fact that arthashastra for instance, a far more credible source for military practices contradicts MB on this issue and presents a view which is fare more reasonable. MB is NOT a military manual and should not be seen as one. doing so is unfair both to MB and the study of ancient India's military science, which is an important topic in its own right.

MB also provides details of who came with how much army.

well of course, if they used bloated figures for the totals they would adjust the other numbers so it would all add up.
I doubt our ancient writers had any problems with elementary addition.

_________________

No, it need not be taken as giving a military handbook - if that is what you mean! My point is entirely different, that the MB is not claiming to be a military manual, and hence its military details should not be used literally or be held against its authors. However, dismissing the figures may be interpreted by some people as the whole thing being nonsense, and people will not think that the numbers might have been deliberately used to encode important astronomical quantities or other information. In that case, disconnect from reality would be deliberate and not wishful addition of digits.

b'ji, I'm not holding it's erroneous details on military against the authors but against those who insist it is 100% accurate (and make military history of ancient India look like a lala fantasy in the process). if there was one way to reduce our military history to a joke, this is the way to do it.
as someone who is extremely interested in this arcane and often ignored branch I will always oppose any misguided attempt to trivialize it.
I do not doubt your interpretation of MB and IMHO it is THE epic ever written by mankind.
for that reason alone I think a shallow and literal interpretation of MB is a HUGE disservice to both MB and the topics that are the subjects of such interpretation.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Apr 2011 01:32

RahulM ji

I will try to get the references from MB. I will also get the details of Akshauhinis each kingdom contributed.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Apr 2011 01:51

Narayana Rao wrote:Coming to calculation of the force size etc, look at the forces available to the Vijayanagara in say Battle of Raichur and look at the size of Indian Army at the time of say Indo China war.

please tell me how any of that (raichur or '62 war) contradicts what I said about the numbers given in MB being impractical.

Why are we assuming that there are no horses in India.

no one is, please do not create strawmen arguments.

What happened to the Horse breeds used by the Maratas. I think it is nearly extinct.

I am not sure the deccani horse breed survives today because the brits had a deliberate policy of killing off indigenous breeds. I highly doubt it was there in the ancient days in the time of MB. from descriptions it seemed like a small hardy breed and it is likely that it was developed from local pony breeds sometime in the early middle ages. there is no mention of maratha regions as good or even moderate horse country in ancient texts AFAIK.

Horses do have a important place and to say out right that they are not there in the no mentioned in MB may not be true.

well you have to provide some reason in support of your assertions. if you have a good reason to think otherwise please share it, I would love to know more. just 'I don't think so' is not enough on BR.
consider that even in 500 BC horse breeds were quite underdeveloped and people all over the world used chariots mainly because most horse breeds were too weak to carry people on their backs. pulling chariots was much easier. even in MB, almost everything happened around chariots and cavalry is mentioned almost as an afterthought. even if we take the latest date for events in MB, around 1000BC, cavalry was virtually unknown anywhere in the world at that time and people were still using horses for chariots. if we take the date of MB as a more reasonable 1500 BC or earlier, it becomes far worse for cavalry.

IMHO in MB times cavalry itself was not used at all and the army was composed of chariots, elephants and infantry. cavalry was probably added to the text of MB in the times of the imperial guptas (who, it might be mentioned, placed massive emphasis on cavalry unlike other Indian empires) during whose period the MB underwent a major editing and revisioning. descriptions of the kurukshetra war certainly supports this assertion, how important are horse cavalry in it ? if you take them away, will it impact the war at all ?

One thing we find at in Ramayana also is the statement by Dasaradha that he will come with his Akshohini to protect the Yagna of Vishwamithra instead of sending Rama and Lakshmana alone, which means Dasaradha has such forces with him even at that time.

Magadha and its associate kings could field 18 of such divisions some 17 times against Madhura of Sri Krishana and the Bagawan had destroyed all these forces. Size of the forces therefore is dependant on the level of militarization of the states and from what I read all Janapadas are fully committed to warfare in those times also.

you are talking about a period that is at least 2000 years before raichur, what was human population of the world at the time, let alone India ? fully committed or not the notion of magadha alone sending such a force is ridiculous !!!!
1 akshauhini = 109350 infantry + 21870*4 charioteers(minimum) + 21870*4 elephant riders + 65,610 horse riders = 349,920 ~ 3.5 lakhs !!! (not that much smaller than the paki army, a country that has a population probably 100 times that of ancient magadha and this is supposedly one division out of 18 such !!)
so 18 divisions = 63 lakhs = 6.3 million (about 70% of the TOTAL population of India @ 2000 BC)

made up magadh's army alone ??!!
and there were 17 such armies ?? so 107 million people soldiers for magadh alone ??
that is 3.5 times the population of the earth at the time !!

sorry, but

I don't know how to continue this serious discussion.
=====================
historical population estimates.
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Apr 2011 05:02

Rahul M,
it was a big big battle [or war]! but militarily - provisions, and supplying with weapons, would be a huge infrastructural and logistics level problem if the numbers are taken literally. That alone should be a red-herring! I do not think that the transcribers were fools or so negligent with an obviously popular and well-known work to tamper with it so easily. So I looked for other purposes of such exact large integers, which I feel leads to astronomical and astrophysical observations as being coded into. There is also precedence for such a line in a similar study done on Homer's works. And that it happened in a Greek work should make us more suspicious too as having been part of a longer and older tradition which was subscribed to in India also.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 12 Apr 2011 09:55

Rahul M wrote:cavalry was probably added to the text of MB in the times of the imperial guptas (who, it might be mentioned, placed massive emphasis on cavalry unlike other Indian empires) during whose period the MB underwent a major editing and revisioning.

Yes all through the ancient and medieval era foreign horse breeds were considered superior to, and had superior production numbers to, Indian breeds. Even when the Rajputs developed the Marwari and Kathiawari horse breeds, the supply was barely enough for their own armies, much less for the rest of India. They had to institute rules forbidding the use of horses by other communities for non-military purposes.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 12 Apr 2011 13:03

Is there a connection between establishment of Kamakshi-amma and Jagdamba temples in Kamrupa during Mahajanapada times and Satyabhama's slaying of Narakasura in MB?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Apr 2011 16:02

From section9 of Bhumi Parva (in Udyoga Parva)

"Dhritarashtra said,--'Tell me truly (O Sanjaya) of this Varsha that is called after Bharata, where this senseless force hath been collected, in

p. 20

respect of which this my son Duryodhana hath been so very covetous, which the sons of Pandu also are desirous of obtaining, and in which my mind too sinketh. O, tell me this, for thou art, in my judgment endued with intelligence.

"Sanjaya said,--'Listen to me, O king The sons of Pandu are not covetous about this country. On the other hand, it is Duryodhana that is covetous, and Sakuni the son of Suvala, as also many other Kshatriyas who are rulers of the provinces, who being covetous of this country are not able to bear one another. I will now will thee, O thou of Bharata's race, of the tract of land known by Bharata's name. This land is the beloved one of Indra, and, O thou of Bharata's race, this land, O monarch, that is called after Bharata, is also the beloved land of Manu, the son of Vivaswat, of Prithu, of Vainya, of the high-souled Ikshwaku, of Yayati, of Amvarisha, of Mandhatri, of Nahusha, of Muchukunda, of Sivi the son of Usinara, of Rishava, of Ila, of king Nriga, of Kusika, O invincible one, of the high-souled Gadhi, of Somaka, O irrepressible one, and of Dilipa, and also, O monarch, of many other mighty Kshatriyas. I will now, O chastiser of foes, describe to thee that country as I have heard of it. Listen to me, O king, as I speak of what thou hast asked me. Mahendra, Malaya, Sahya, Suktimat, Rakshavat, Vindhya, and Paripatra,--these seven are the Kala-mountains 1 (of Bharatvarsha). Besides these, O king, there are thousands of mountains that are unknown, of hard make, huge, and having excellent valleys. Besides these there are many other smaller mountains inhabited by barbarous tribes. Aryans and Mlecchas, O Kauravya, and many races, O lord, mixed of the two elements, drink the waters of the following rivers, viz., magnificent Ganga, Sindhu, and Saraswati; of Godavari, and Narmada, and the large river called Yamuna; of Dhrishadwati, and Vipapa, and Vipasa and Sthulavaluka; of the river Vetravati, and that other one called Krishna-vena; of Iravati, and Vitasta, and Payosyini, and Devika; of Vedasmrita and Vedavati, and Tridiva, and Ikshumalavi; 2 of Karishini, and Chitravaha, and the river called Chitrasena; of Gomati, and Dhutapada and the large river called Gandaki 3, of Kausiki, and Nischitra, and Kirtya, and Nichita, and Lohatarini; 4 of Rashasi and Satakumbha, and also Sarayu; of Charmanwati, and Vetravati, 5 and Hastisoma, and Disa; of the river called Saravati, and Venna, and Bhimarathi; of Kaveri, and Chuluka, and Vina, and Satavala; of Nivara, and Mahila, and Suprayoga, O king; of Pavitra,

p. 21

and Kundala, and Rajani, and Puramalini; of Purvabhirama, and Vira, and Bhima, and Oghavati; of Palasini, and Papahara, and Mahendra, and Patalavati, of Karishini, and Asikni, and the large river Kusachira: of Makari, and Pravara, and Mena, and Hema, and Dhritavati; of Puravati, and Anushna, and Saivya, and Kapi, O Bharata; of Sadanira, and Adhrishya, and the mighty stream Kusadhara; of Sadakanta, and Siva, and Viravati; of Vatsu, and Suvastu, and Kampana with Hiranwati; of Vara, and the mighty river Panchami, of Rathachitra, and Jyotiratha, and Viswamitra, and Kapinjala; of Upendra, and Vahula, and Kuchira, and Madhuvahini: of Vinadi, and Pinjala, and Vena, and the great river Pungavena; of Vidisa and Krishna-vena, and Tamra, and Kapila, of Salu, and Suvama, the Vedaswa, and the mighty river Harisrava; of Sighra, and Pischala, and the river Bharadwaji, of the river Kausiki, and Sona, and Chandrama; of Durgamantrasila, and Brahma-vodhya, and Vrihadvati; of Yaksha, and Rohi, and Yamvunadi; of Sunasa and Tamasa, and Dasi, and Vasa, and Varuna, and Asi; of Nila, and Dhrimati, and the mighty river Parnasa; of Pomasi, and Vrishabha, and Brahma-meddhya, and Vrihaddhani. These and many other large rivers, O king, such as Sadonirmaya and Krishna, and Mandaga, and Mandavahini; and Mahagouri, and Durga, O Bharata; and Chitropala. Chitraratha, and Manjula, and Vahini; and Mandakini, and Vaitarani, and Kosa, and Mahanadi; and Suktimati, and Ananga, and Pushpaveni, and Utpalavati; and Lohitya, Karatoya, and Vrishasabhya; and Kumari, and Rishikullya and Marisha, and Saraswati; and Mandakini, and Supunya, Sarvasanga, O Bharata, are all mothers of the universe and productive of great merit. Besides these, there are rivers, by hundreds and thousands, that are not known (by names), I have now recounted to thee, O king, all the rivers as far as I remember.

"After this, listen to the names of the provinces as I mention them. They are the Kuru-Panchalas, the Salwas, the Madreyas, the Jangalas, the Surasena, the Kalingas, the Vodhas, the Malas, the Matsyas, the Sauvalyas, the Kuntalas, the Kasi-kosalas, the Chedis, the Karushas, the Bhojas, the Sindhus, the Pulindakas, the Uttamas, the Dasarnas, the Mekalas, the Utkalas; the Panchalas, the Kausijas, the Nikarprishthas, Dhurandharas; the Sodhas, the Madrabhujingas, the Kasis, and the further-Kasis; the Jatharas, the Kukuras, O Bharata; the Kuntis, the Avantis, and the further-Kuntis; the Gomantas, the Mandakas, the Shandas, the Vidarbhas, the Rupavahikas; the Aswakas, the Pansurashtras, the Goparashtras, and the Karityas; the Adhirjayas, the Kuladyas, the Mallarashtras, the Keralas, the Varatrasyas, the Apavahas, the Chakras, the Vakratapas, the Sakas; the Videhas, the Magadhas, the Swakshas, the Malayas, the Vijayas, the Angas, the Vangas, the Kalingas, the Yakrillomans; the Mallas, the Suddellas, the Pranradas, the Mahikas, the Sasikas; the Valhikas, the Vatadhanas, the Abhiras, the Kalajoshakas; the Aparantas, the Parantas, the Pahnabhas, the Charmamandalas; the Atavisikharas, the Mahabhutas, O sire; the Upavrittas, the Anupavrittas, the Surashatras, Kekayas; the Kutas, the Maheyas, the Kakshas, the Samudranishkutas; the Andhras,

p. 22

and, O king, many hilly tribes, and many tribes residing on lands laying at the foot of the hills, and the Angamalajas, and the Manavanjakas; the Pravisheyas, and the Bhargavas, O king; the Pundras, the Bhargas, the Kiratas, the Sudeshnas, and the Yamunas, the Sakas, the Nishadhas, the Anartas, the Nairitas, the Durgalas, the Pratimasyas, the Kuntalas, and the Kusalas; the Tiragrahas, the Ijakas, the Kanyakagunas, the Tilabharas, the Samiras, the Madhumattas, the Sukandakas; the Kasmiras, the Sindhusauviras, the Gandharvas, and the Darsakas; the Abhisaras, the Utulas, the Saivalas, and the Valhikas; the Darvis, the Vanavadarvas, the Vatagas, the Amarathas, and the Uragas; the Vahuvadhas, the Kauravyas, the Sudamanas, the Sumalikas; the Vadhras, the Karishakas, the Kalindas, and the Upatyakas; the Vatayanas, the Romanas, and the Kusavindas; the Kacchas, the Gopalkacchas, the Kuruvarnakas; the Kiratas, the Varvasas, the Siddhas, the Vaidehas, and the Tamraliptas; the Aundras, the Paundras, the Saisikatas, and the Parvatiyas, O sire.

"'There are other kingdoms, O bull of Bharata's race, in the south. They are the Dravidas, the Keralas, the Prachyas, the Mushikas, and the Vanavashikas; the Karanatakas, the Mahishakas, the Vikalpas, and also the Mushakas; the Jhillikas, the Kuntalas, the Saunridas, and the Nalakananas; the Kankutakas, the Cholas, and the Malavayakas; the Samangas, the Kanakas, the Kukkuras, and the Angara-marishas; the Samangas, the Karakas, the Kukuras, the Angaras, the Marishas: the Dhwajinis, the Utsavas, the Sanketas, the Trigartas, and the Salwasena; the Vakas, the Kokarakas, the Pashtris, and the Lamavegavasas; the Vindhyachulakas, the Pulindas, and the Valkalas; the Malavas, the Vallavas, the further-Vallavas, the Kulindas, the Kalavas, the Kuntaukas, and the Karatas; the Mrishakas, the Tanavalas, the Saniyas; the Alidas, the Pasivatas, the Tanayas, and the Sulanyas; the Rishikas, the Vidarbhas, the Kakas, the Tanganas, and the further-Tanganas. Among the tribes of the north are the Mlecchas, and the Kruras, O best of the Bharatas; the Yavanas, the Chinas, the Kamvojas, the Darunas, and many Mleccha tribes; the Sukritvahas, the Kulatthas, the Hunas, and the Parasikas; the Ramanas, and the Dasamalikas. These countries are, besides, the abodes of many Kshatriya, Vaisya, and Sudra tribes. Then again there are the Sudra-abhiras, the Dardas, the Kasmiras, and the Pattis; the Khasiras; the Atreyas, the Bharadwajas, the Stanaposhikas, the Poshakas, the Kalingas, and diverse tribes of Kiratas; the Tomaras, the Hansamargas, and the Karamanjakas. These and other kingdoms are on the east and on the north. O lord, alluding to them briefly I have told thee all. Earth, if its resources are properly developed according to its qualities and prowess, is like an ever-yielding 1 cow, from which the three-fold fruits of virtue, profit and pleasure, may be milked. Brave kings conversant with virtue and profit have become covetous of Earth. Endued with activity, they would even cast away their lives in battle, from hunger of wealth. Earth is certainly the refuge

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 12 Apr 2011 16:12

^^^ Above description mentions 150+ major freshwater rivers!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Apr 2011 19:55

RahulM bhayya,

Let me put it this way -

We are discussing about MB, which is written by Vedavyasa and passed on to us over centuries (if we were to believe McCaulayite indologists) or millennia if we were to believe the bharatiya sources. Until recently we were not sure of existence of MB Dwaraka and not sure of the historical Krishna. Every day we are learning more and more about our epics.

My sources are MB and Puranas. I am basing my arguments on those sources. There is no question of "belief" in it. I am accepting MB as an authoritative source on MB war, where as you think these numbers are exaggerated. As we research further, we both will reach the truth; whatever that may be. You sources seem to be the other non-MB texts and modern thought process. But then most of those modern texts did not believe MB happened in ~3136BC and did not believe that most of the MB characters exist in those days. How to reconcile all these texts? By relying on the main texts, I am trying to avoid unnecessary parameters; as the more Iread the more I get convinced that the available renderings of Bharatiya history is manipulated and wrong.

My concern is who/how decides what is acceptable portion of MB and what is not? I too agree that there have been many modifications to MB story that we hear in vernacular media; which I often called the "Harikatha" effect. That is why I always depended upon the source author (Vyasa Bharata in Sanskrit and Valmiki Ramayana) instead of translations and rewritings.

There are many scenarios and stories in MB that sound illogical to the modern mind. For example, can Gandhari deliver 100 Kauravas at one time? If not over what period they were born, if so what happens to the stories/prejudices of Pandavas and Kauravas that led to future war. How did Drona teach all these kids in one class if they were of different ages and so on. Coming to Pandavas who were their true fathers? How did Arjuna achieve Pasupata? Do Astras exist? and so on. Hope you get my drift.

There is a school of thought that BagavatGita is a later addition to MB. Who knows! What I think is MB is written by Vedavyasa and the BG scene is rendered by Sanjaya to Dhritarastra. Then is it difficult to think the BG is a poetic rendering of Gita-sastra that Sri Krishna tought Arjuna? There are many poets who wrote a ream about a split-second impression that they had about their love.

What I am trying to get with my logic was, if it is true that the modern Iran and ME are satraps of Bharat during those days, then where is the question of importing/exporting? No one talks about the quality and breed of the horses used in MB; even though it doesn't mean the every donkey-horse is brought into the war.

If Horses, like other cattle, were mainly domesticated (except for few breeds that were wandering in distant Americas) is it difficult to assume a war of MB proportions (that almost wiped an entire section of the society - Kshatriyas; leading to complete destruction of many kingdoms and janapadas, remember the story where the tribals invade dwaraka taking all women except the wives of Krishna) involved almost all the war horse population of that period?

That said, I am open to learn. Please provide as many resources as possible. Who knows, together we may find Sri Krishna and Krishna Dwaipayana.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 12 Apr 2011 19:57

Gita's heart - the golden verse that has performed wonders- Chapter 15, Sloka 15.

sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto
mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca
vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham

Translation

"I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas I am to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas."

My humble experience

I once had to sit idle for a month on my job, as some official investigations were going on regarding my Post grad. Diploma Certificate, which I had lost the original, and a new one was never issued as a convocation was never held for many years at the Institute which issued this certificate. For a month I spent time chanting this Sloka everyday. I knew in my heart, that I would be declared truthful because I had not manufactured any story. During that month,my college even sent proof that my certificate was authentic, and eventually I was re-instated.

Another interesting case is of a man jailed for no fault of his, false implicated in a case. He spent six months in jail, and was eventually freed. He chanted this Sloka everyday as much as he could.

Chanting this Sloka gives you a clear view of others, you stop doubting others as you begin to see that the same immutable truth is within each person.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Apr 2011 20:27

Narayana Rao wrote:Ramana sir

http://en.srichaganti.net/GajendraMoksham.aspx

same site as RamaYji told. Guruji you should listen to this and other things in this site. One of the best and getter than 100 times of Ushasri whom I always thought as the best. Now a days he is speaking on Ardhanareswara thotram of Shankara Bhagavadpada in Maa Tv.

I finally listend to you and downloaded onto my phone. What an awesome summary of Potanna's conceptulaization of bhakata and Deva relationship.

Atriji and others even thoguht its in Telugu you might be able to understand the discourse as its highly Sanskritized.

I really like the third part where he describes how god listens to a bhakata's prayers and drop everything to come to his/her rescue.

The formless description of god and the concept of being saved is very clear in third segment.

I wish we could have this in Anglam (Englishu) to get it to the rest.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Apr 2011 20:35

Source: http://www.mahabharataonline.com/transl ... _02028.php

"Arjuna, the son of the chastiser of Paka then brought under subjugation that direction (the North) which was presided over by the Lord of treasures. And Bhimasena overcome by force the East and Sahadeva the South, and Nakula, O king, acquainted with all the weapons, conquered the West. Thus while his brothers were so employed, the exalted king Yudishthira the just stayed within Khandavaprastha in the enjoyment of great affluence in the midst of friends and relatives."

Arjuna's capaign toward's north of Khandavaprastha (today's Delhi surroundings)

having thus subjugated the king of Pragjyotisha, Dhananjaya of long arms, the son of Kunti, then marched towards the north--the direction presided over by the lord of treasures. That bull amongst men, that son of Kunti, then conquered the mountainous tracts and their outskirts, as also the hilly regions. And having conquered all the mountains and the kings that reigned there, and bringing them under his sway, he exacted tributes from all. And winning the affections of those kings and uniting himself with them, he next marched, O king, against Vrihanta, the king of Uluka, making this earth tremble with the sound of his drums, the clatter of his chariot-wheels, and the roar of the elephants in his train. Vrihanta, however, quickly coming out of his city followed by his army consisting of four kinds of troops, gave battle to Falguna (Arjuna). And the fight that took place between Vrihanta and Dhananjaya was terrible. It so happened that Vrihanta was unable to bear the prowess of the son of Pandu. Then that invincible king of the mountainous region regarding the son of Kunti irresistible, approached him with all his wealth. Arjuna snatched out the kingdom from Vrihanta, but having made peace with him marched, accompanied by that king, against Senavindu whom he soon expelled from his kingdom. After this he subjugated Modapura, Vamadeva, Sudaman, Susankula, the Northern Ulukas, and the kings of those countries and peoples. Hereafter at the command of Yudhishthira, O monarch, Arjuna, did not move from the city of Senavindu but sent his troops only and brought under his sway those five countries and peoples. For Arjuna, having arrived at Devaprastha, the city of Senavindu, took up his quarters there with his army consisting of four kinds of forces. Thence, surrounded by the kings and the peoples he had subjugated, the hero marched against king Viswagaswa--that bull of Puru's race. Having vanquished in battle the brave mountaineers, who were all great warriors, the son of Pandu, O king, then occupied with the help of his troops, the town protected by the Puru king. Having vanquished in battle the Puru king, as also the robber tribes, of the mountains, the son of Pandu brought under his sway the seven tribes called Utsava-sanketa. That bull of the Kshatriya race then defeated the brave Kshatriyas of Kashmira and also king Lohita along with ten minor chiefs. Then the Trigartas, the Daravas, the Kokonadas, and various other Kshatriyas, O king, advanced against the son of Pandu. That Prince of the Kuru race then took the delightful town of Avisari, and then brought under his sway Rochamana ruling in Uraga.

Then the son of Indra (Arjuna), putting forth his might, pressed the delightful town of Singhapura that was well-protected with various weapons. Then Arjuna, that bull amongst the son of Pandu, at the head of all his troops, fiercely attacked the regions called Suhma and Sumala. Then the son of Indra, endued with great prowess, after pressing them with great force, brought the Valhikas always difficult of being vanquished, under his sway. Then Falguna, the son of Pandu, taking with him a select force, defeated the Daradas along with the Kambojas. Then the exalted son of Indra vanquished the robber tribes that dwelt in the north-eastern frontier and those also that dwelt in the woods. And, O great king, the son of Indra also subjugated the allied tribes of the Lohas, the eastern Kambojas, and northern Rishikas. And the battle with the Rishikas was fierce in the extreme. Indeed, the fight that took place between them and the son of Pritha was equal to that between the gods and the Asuras in which Taraka (the wife of Vrihaspati) had become the cause of so much slaughter. And defeating, O king, the Rishikas in the field of battle, Arjuna took from them as tribute eight horses that were of the colour of the parrot's breast, as also other horses of the hues of the peacock, born in northern and other climes and endued with high speed. At last having conquered all the Himalayas and the Nishkuta mountains, that bull among men, arriving at the White mountains, encamped on its breast."

"that heroic and foremost of the Pandavas endued with great energy, crossing the White mountains, subjugated the country of the Limpurushas ruled by Durmaputra, after a collision involving a great slaughter of Kshatriyas, and brought the region under his complete sway. Having reduced that country, the son of Indra (Arjuna) with a collected mind marched at the head of his troops to the country called Harataka, ruled by the Guhakas. Subjugating them by a policy of conciliation, the Kuru prince beheld (in that region) that excellent of lakes called Manasa and various other lakes and tanks sacred to the Rishis. And the exalted prince having arrived at the lake Manasa conquered the regions ruled by the Gandharvas that lay around the Harataka territories. Here the conqueror took, as tribute from the country, numerous excellent horses called Tittiri, Kalmasha, Manduka. At last the son of the slayer of Paka, arriving in the country of North Harivarsha desired to conquer it. Thereupon certain frontier-guards of huge bodies and endued with great strength and energy, coming to him with gallant hearts, said, 'O son of Pritha, thiscountry can be never conquered by thee. If thou seekest thy good, return hence. He that entereth this region, if human, is sure to perish. We have been gratified with thee; O hero, thy conquests have been enough. Nor is anything to be seen here, O Arjuna, that may be conquered by thee. The Northern Kurus live here. There cannot be war here. Even if thou enterest it, thou will not be able to behold anything, for with human eyes nothing can be seen here. If, however thou seekest anything else, O Bharata tell us, O tiger among men, so that we may do thy bidding. Thus addressed by them, Arjuna smilingly addressing them, said,--'I desire the acquisition of the imperial dignity by Yudhishthira the just, of great intelligence. If your land is shut against human beings, I shall not enter it. Let something be paid unto Yudhishthira by ye as tribute. Hearing these words of Arjuna, they gave him as tribute many cloths and ornaments of celestial make, silks of celestial texture and skins of celestial origin.

"It was thus that tiger among men subjugated the countries that lay to the North, having fought numberless battles with both Kshatriya and robber tribes. And having vanquished the chiefs and brought them under his sway he exacted from them much wealth, various gems and jewels, the horses of the species called Tittiri and Kalmasha, as also those of the colour of the parrot's wings and those that were like the peacocks in hue and all endued with the speed of the wind. And surrounded, O king, by a large army consisting of the four kinds of forces, the hero came back to the excellent city of Sakraprastha. And Partha offered the whole of that wealth, together with the animals he had brought, unto Yudhishthira the just. And commanded by the monarch, the hero retired to a chamber of the palace for rest."

Next on to West of Khandavaprastha along with Bhimasena; the interested regions...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Apr 2011 20:38

ramay ji, please mention where it says that iran, ME or turkey was a province of India.

I'll reply to the rest of you post later.
cheers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Apr 2011 20:39

Where are you getting all this from?

IOW sources?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Apr 2011 20:52

Ramanaji - Added source at the top of the post.

Proof that Sakuni's story of Duryodhana killing 100 brothers and father of Sakuni is "Harikatha affect"

Sakuni is son of Suvala

king Yudhishthira's sacrifice, hundreds of other Kshatriyas acquainted with the nature of the sacrifice, with joyous hearts came there from various countries, desiring to behold king Yudhishthira the son of Pandu and his sacrificial mansion, and brought with them many costly jewels of various kinds. And Dhritarashtra and Bhishma and Vidura of high intelligence; and all Kaurava brothers with Duryyodhana at their head; and Suvala the king of Gandhara and Sakuni endued with great strength; and Achala, and Vrishaka, and Karna that foremost of all charioteers; and Salya endued with great might and the strong Valhika; and Somadatta, and Bhuri of the Kuru race, and Bhurisravas and Sala; and Aswatthama, Kripa, Drona, and Jayadratha, the ruler of Sindhu; and Yajnasena with his sons, and Salya that lord of earth and that great car warrior king Bhagadatta of Pragjyotisha accompanied by all Mlechcha tribes inhabiting the marshy regions on the sea-shore; and many mountain kings, and king Vrihadvala; and Vasudeva the king of the Paundrayas, and the kings of Vanga and Kalinga; and Akastha and Kuntala and the kings of the Malavas and the Andhrakas; and the Dravidas and the Singhalas and the king of Kashmira, and king Kuntibhoja of great energy and king Gauravahana, and all the other heroic kings of Valhika; and Virata with his two sons, and Mavella endued with great might; and various kings and princes ruling in various countries; and, O Bharata king Sisupala endued with great energy and invincible in battle accompanied by his son--all of them came to the sacrifice of the son of Pandu. And Rama and Aniruddha and Kanaka and Sarana; and Gada, Pradyumna, Shamva, and Charudeshna of great energy; and Ulmuka and Nishatha and the brave Angavaha; and innumerable other Vrishnis--all mighty car-warriors--came there.

And the Harikatha story is given here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakuni

Shakuni was born to King Subala of Gandhara. His sister Gandhari was married to king Dhritarashtra. As per legend, on the advice of astrologers, to avert a calamity it was said that Gandhari was married to a goat before getting married to Dhritarashtra. And the goat had been sacrificed promptly thereafter. Technically, this made Gandhari a widow and Dhritarashtra her second husband. Many years later when her husband Dhritarashtra learns about this truth, shocked and enraged, Dhritrashtra puts Gandhari’s entire family,including king Subala in prison. In prison, they were served just one fistful of rice every day. Realizing that this was an elaborate plan to starve them to death, Gandhari’s father declared that none but his youngest son would eat the sparse food being served, so that at least one amongst them would survive to avenge the death of the rest. The youngest son of king Subala was Shakuni. He survived and swore not to rest until all of Kuru kingdom is destroyed . He used the bones of his father to make the dice with which he was able to defeat the Pandavas in the gambling match, and thus which eventually led to the war at Kurukshetra and also to the destruction of entire Kuru clan.His father twisted his one leg to give him a permanent limp as a constant reminder of revenge.

If Suvala attended Rajasuya of Dharmaraja, then there is hardly a month between the Rajasuya and "game of Dice". When did Duryodhana get to kill all these people and when did Sakuni plan the whole avenge?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Apr 2011 21:05

Bhimasena's campaign to the East of Khandavaprastha

Vaisampayana said,--in the meantime, Bhimasena also endued with great energy, having obtained the assent of Yudhishthira the just marched towards the eastern direction. And the tiger among the Bharatas, possessed of great valour and ever increasing the sorrows of his foes, was accompanied by a mighty host with the full complement of elephants and horses and cars, well-armed and capable of crushing all hostile kingdoms. That tiger among men, the son of Pandu, going first into the great country of the Panchalas, began by various means to conciliate that tribe. Then that hero, that bull of the Bharata race, within a short time, vanquished the Gandakas and the Videhas. That exalted one then subjugated the Dasarnas. There in the country of the Dasarnas, the king called Sudharman with his bare arms fought a fierce battle with Bhimasena. And Bhimasena, beholding that feat of the illustrious king, appointed the mighty Sudharman as the first in command of his forces. Then Bhima of terrible prowess marched towards the east, causing the earth itself to tremble with the tread of the mighty host that followed him. Then that hero who in strength was the foremost of all strong men defeated in battle Rochamana, the king of Aswamedha, at the head of all his troops. And the son of Kunti, having vanquished that monarch by performing feats that excelled in fierceness, subjugated the eastern region. Then that prince of the Kuru race, endued with great prowess going into the country of Pulinda in the south, brought Sukumara and the king Sumitra under his sway. Then, O Janamejaya, that bull in the Bharata race, at the command of Yudhishthira the just marched against Sisupala of great energy. The king of Chedi, hearing of the intentions of the son of Pandu, came out of his city. And that chastiser of all foes then received the son of Pritha with respect. Then, O king, those bulls of the Chedi and the Kuru lines, thus met together, enquired after each other's welfare. Then, O monarch, the king of Chedi offered his kingdom unto Bhima and said smilingly,--'O sinless one, upon what art thou bent?' And Bhima thereupon represented unto him the intentions of king Yudhishthira. And Bhima dwelt there, O king, for thirty nights, duly entertained by Sisupala. And after this he set out from Chedi with his troops and vehicles."

Vaisampayana said,--that chastiser of all foes then vanquished king Srenimat of the country of Kumara, and then Vrihadvala, the king of Kosala. Then the foremost of the sons of Pandu, by performing feats excelling in fierceness, defeated the virtuous and mighty king Dirghayaghna of Ayodhya. And the exalted one then subjugated the country of Gopalakaksha and the northern Kosalas and also the king of Mallas. And the mighty one, arriving then in the moist region at the foot of the Himalayas soon brought the whole country under his sway. And that bull of Bharata race brought under control in this way diverse countries. And endued with great energy and in strength the foremost of all strong men, the son of Pandu next conquered the country of Bhallata, as also the mountain of Suktimanta that was by the side of Bhallata. Then Bhima of terrible prowess and long arms, vanquishing in battle the unretreating Suvahu the king of Kasi, brought him under complete sway. Then that bull among the sons of Pandu overcame in battle, by sheer force,the great king Kratha reigning in the region lying about Suparsa. Then the hero of great energy vanquished the Matsya and the powerful Maladas and the country called Pasubhumi that was without fear or oppression of any kind. And the long-armed hero then, coming from that land, conquered Madahara, Mahidara, and the Somadheyas, and turned his steps towards the north. And the mighty son of Kunti then subjugated, by sheer force, the country called Vatsabhumi, and the king of the Bhargas, as also the ruler of the Nishadas and Manimat and numerous other kings. Then Bhima, with scarcely any degree of exertion and very soon, vanquished the southern Mallas and the Bhagauanta mountains. And the hero next vanquished, by policy alone, the Sarmakas and the Varmakas. And that tiger among men then defeated with comparative ease that lord of earth, Janaka {All kings of Videha are called Janakas (Sita's father is also Janaka). They have a different original name though}the king of the Videhas. And the hero then subjugated strategically the Sakas and the barbarians living in that part of the country. And the son of Pandu, sending forth expeditions from Videha, conquered the seven kings of the Kiratas living about the Indra mountain. The mighty hero then, endued with abundant energy, vanquished in battle the Submas and the Prasuhmas. And winning them over to his side, the son of Kunti, possessed of great strength, marched against Magadha. On his way he subjugated the monarchs known by the names of Danda and Dandadhara, And accompanied by those monarchs, the son of Pandu marched against Girivraja. After bringing the son of Jarasandha under his sway by conciliation and making him pay tribute, the hero then accompanied by the monarchs he had vanquished, marched against Kansa{Must be the Kansa clan name - The Kamsa, uncle of Sri Krishna must have been dead by then}. And making the earth tremble by means of his troops consisting of the four kinds of forces, the foremost of the Pandavas then encountered Karna that slayer of foes. And, O Bharata, having subjugated Karna and brought him under his sway, the mighty hero then vanquished the powerful king of the mountainous regions. And the son of Pandu then slew in a fierce encounter, by the strength of his arms, the mighty king who dwelt in Madagiri. And the Pandava then, O king, subjugated in battle those strong and brave heroes of fierce prowess, viz., the heroic and mighty Vasudeva, the king of Pundra and king Mahaujah who reigned in Kausika-kachchha, and then attacked the king of Vanga. And having vanquished Samudrasena and king Chandrasena and Tamralipta, and also the king of the Karvatas and the ruler of the Suhmas, as also the kings that dwelt on the sea-shore, that bull among the Bharatas then conquered all Mlechchha tribes. {Observe the Mlechha sabda} The mighty son of the wind-god having thus conquered various countries, and exacting tributes from them all advanced towards Lohity. And the son of Pandu then made all the Mlechchha kings dwelling in the marshy regions on the sea-coast, pay tributes and various kinds of wealth, and sandal wood and aloes, and clothes and gems, and pearls and blankets and gold and silver and valuable corals. The Mlechchha kings showered upon the illustrious son of Kunti a thick downpour of wealth consisting of coins and gems counted by hundreds of millions. Then returning to Indraprastha, Bhima of terrible prowess offered the whole of that wealth unto king Yudhisthira the just."

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Apr 2011 21:27

My sources are MB and Puranas. I am basing my arguments on those sources. There is no question of "belief" in it. I am accepting MB as an authoritative source on MB war, where as you think these numbers are exaggerated. As we research further, we both will reach the truth; whatever that may be. You sources seem to be the other non-MB texts and modern thought process.

objection 1, IMO there is no such thing called modern thought process, there is only logical thought process based on reason and that which is not.

I believe 'Indian thought process', if I might call it so, was always logical in its form and based upon facts.
as the gita says, 'buddhau sharanamanviccha' roughly translated as 'seek refuge in reason'
similar sentiments abound in all our texts.

But then most of those modern texts did not believe MB happened in ~3136BC and did not believe that most of the MB characters exist in those days. How to reconcile all these texts? By relying on the main texts, I am trying to avoid unnecessary parameters; as the more Iread the more I get convinced that the available renderings of Bharatiya history is manipulated and wrong.

objection 2, kindly do not bring in 'modern texts'. not once in my arguments have I used anything from 'modern texts' or whatever. I always try to read original texts and form my own view of the matter.
the rest of this quote is a rather weak attempt at portraying me as a macaulayite, which I strongly resent and find quite insulting. why is it that every disagreement has to end with ad hominem attacks ? this is most unfortunate. if this is how we disagree among friends then we will end up alienating more people in spite of our good intentions.

My sources are MB and Puranas. I am basing my arguments on those sources. There is no question of "belief" in it. I am accepting MB as an authoritative source on MB war,

I am sorry dear sir but an uncritical acceptance of the factual validity is the very definition of 'blind belief'.
MB is not meant to be a portrayal of history but rather a work of literature on a particularly important period of our history that will inspire people for generations. puranas are even further away from history, they are meant to be allegorical works created to teach people of the underlying philosophies behind the religious beliefs. to take these texts as stand alone historical texts is a disservice to these texts as well as our ancient history.
sure, there are elements of history in these texts and that have to be filtered out from what is not history. I don't understand why you are taking that as some kind of insult.

What I am trying to get with my logic was, if it is true that the modern Iran and ME are satraps of Bharat during those days, then where is the question of importing/exporting? No one talks about the quality and breed of the horses used in MB; even though it doesn't mean the every donkey-horse is brought into the war.

even IF that is true, which I am yet to be convinced, the WORLD did not have enough horses to supply them in the numbers mentioned in MB.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Apr 2011 22:38

Nakula's westward campaign

Vaisampayana said,--"I shall now recite to you the deeds and triumphs of Nakula, and how that exalted one conquered the direction that had once been subjugated by Vasudeva. The intelligent Nakula, surrounded by a large host, set out from Khandavaprastha for the west, making this earth tremble with the shouts and the leonine roars of the warriors and the deep rattle of chariot wheels. And the hero first assailed the mountainous country called Rohitaka that was dear unto (the celestial generalissimo) Kartikeya and which was delightful and prosperous and full of kine and every kind of wealth and produce. And the encounter the son of Pandu had with the Mattamyurakas of that country was fierce. And the illustrious Nakula after this, subjugated the whole of the desert country and the region known as Sairishaka full of plenty, as also that other one called Mahetta. And the hero had a fierce encounter with the royal sage Akrosa. And the son of Pandu left that part of the country having subjugated the Dasarnas, the Sivis, the Trigartas, the Amvashtas, the Malavas, the five tribes of the Karnatas, and those twice born classes that were called the Madhyamakeyas and Vattadhanas{twice born = dwijas = brahmin king clans}. And making circuitous journey that bull among men then conquered the (Mlechcha) tribes called the Utsava-sanketas. And the illustrious hero soon brought under subjection the mighty Gramaniya that dwelt on the shore of the sea, and the Sudras and the Abhiras that dwelt on the banks of the Saraswati, and all those tribes that lived upon fisheries, and those also that dwelt on the mountains, and the whole of the country called after the five rivers, and the mountains called Amara, and the country called Uttarayotisha and the city of Divyakutta {City state?}and the tribe called Dwarapala. And the son of Pandu, by sheer force, reduced to subjection the Ramathas, the Harahunas, and various kings of the west. And while staying there Nakula sent. O Bharata, messengers unto Vasudeva. And Vasudeva with all the Yadavas accepted his sway. And the mighty hero, proceeding thence to Sakala, the city of the Madras, made his uncle Salya accept from affection the sway of the Pandavas. And, O monarch, the illustrious prince deserving the hospitality and entertainment at his uncle's hands, was well entertained by his uncle. And skilled in war, the prince, taking from Salya a large quantity of jewels and gems, left his kingdom. And the son of Pandu then reduced to subjection the fierce Mlechchas residing on the sea coast, as also the wild tribes of the Palhavas, the Kiratas, the Yavanas, and the Sakas. And having subjugated various monarchs, and making all of them pay tributes, Nakula that foremost of the Kurus, full of resources, retraced his way towards his own city. And, O king, so great was the treasure which Nakula brought that ten thousand camels could carry it with difficulty on their backs. And arriving at Indraprastha, the heroic and fortunate son of Madri presented the whole of that wealth unto Yudhishthira.

Looks like Nakula did not cross modern Afghanistan? I will check the speech I heard and see what source that author quoted.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Apr 2011 22:54

RahulM,

Apologies for that McCaulayite imposition. I was just putting my logic behind relying on MB texts as is, not to comment about your thought process.

objection 1, IMO there is no such thing called modern thought process, there is only logical thought process based on reason and that which is not.

Modern is a relative term. In this context by modern I meant the Indologists who blindly follow western indologists and who "believe" that there is no history in Bharat before Aryan invasion; and MB is written during first millennium BC.

I am sorry dear sir but an uncritical acceptance of the factual validity is the very definition of 'blind belief'.

What debate is this. How is it "blind belief" to accept Vyasa Bharata as an authoritative source on MB war?

MB is not meant to be a portrayal of history but rather a work of literature on a particularly important period of our history that will inspire people for generations.

How did you come to that conclusion?

puranas are even further away from history, they are meant to be allegorical works created to teach people of the underlying philosophies behind the religious beliefs. to take these texts as stand alone historical texts is a disservice to these texts as well as our ancient history.

This is another indication for me to put you in the "modern" thought process group (what 'religion' MB is trying to propagate; I do not understand),the same way you think I "believe" MB. Who is saying that these texts are stand alone historical texts? All I am saying is if Vyasa Bharatam is the source that, for the first time, told us about the occurrence of MB war between two groups that are called Kauravas and Pandavas then it can be accepted as authoritative source of information. All other texts become supporting documentation, not vice versa. Can you imagine a source that doesn't quote Vyasa Bharata and yet tell the story of MB war?

***

Dear brother, I am not trying to convince you are anyone else. I found a topic that in interesting to me and am posting the information that I learned in the way that is related to the topic. I am not going to benefit in anyway if you get convinced or not.

Peace!

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 13 Apr 2011 00:49

Looks like Nakula did not cross modern Afghanistan?

...reduced to subjection the Ramathas, the Harahunas,

...also the wild tribes of the Palhavas, the Kiratas, the Yavanas, and the Sakas

I thought "Ramathas" stand for Romans, Palhavas for persians and Sakas for Turks.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Apr 2011 01:06

^ Sushupti garu,

I came to that understanding based on what Sri Kota Venkatachalam garu said in his "The plot in Indian Chronology" book. He says the kings west of Indus are called Sakas and Yavanas; who later got pushed further west who took those names to greek etc.,

Will try to post that info (have to type that info as the book is of images)

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Apr 2011 03:01

Sahadeva's campaign to South of Khandavaprastha

Vaisampayana said,--"thus also Sahadeva, dismissed with affection by king Yudhisthira the just, marched towards the southern direction accompanied by a mighty host. Strong in strength, that mighty prince of the Kuru race, vanquishing completely at the outset the Surasenas, brought the king of Matsya under his sway. And the hero then, defeating Dantavakra, the mighty king of the Adhirajas and making him pay tribute, re-established him on his throne. The prince then brought under his sway Sukumara and then king Sumitra, and he next vanquished the other Matsyas and then the Patacharas. Endued with great intelligence, the Kuru warrior then conquered soon enough the country of the Nishadas and also the high hill called Gosringa, and that lord of earth called Srenimat. And subjugating next the country called Navarashtra, the hero marched against Kuntibhoja, who with great willingness accepted the sway of the conquering hero. And marching thence to the banks of the Charmanwati, the Kuru warrior met the son of king Jamvaka, who had, on account of old hostilities, been defeated before by Vasudeva. O Bharata, the son of Jamvaka gave battle to Sahadeva. And Sahadeva defeating the prince marched towards the south. The mighty warrior then vanquished the Sekas and others, and exacted tributes from them and also various kinds of gems and wealth. Allying himself with the vanquished tribes the prince then marched towards the countries that lay on the banks of the Narmada. And defeating there in battle the two heroic kings of Avanti, called Vinda and Anuvinda, supported by a mighty host, the mighty son of the twin gods exacted much wealth from them. After this the hero marched towards the town of Bhojakata {another city-state}, and there, O king of unfading glory, a fierce encounter took place between him and the king of that city for two whole days. But the son of Madri, vanquishing the invincible Bhismaka, then defeated in battle the king of Kosala and the ruler of the territories lying on the banks of the Venwa, as also the Kantarakas and the kings of the eastern Kosalas. The hero then defeating both the Natakeyas and the Heramvaks in battle, and subjugating the country of Marudha, reduced Munjagrama by sheer strength. And the son of Pandu then vanquished the mighty monarchs of the Nachinas and the Arvukas and the various forest king of that part of the country. Endued with great strength the hero then reduced to subjection king Vatadhipa. And defeating in battle the Pulindas, the hero then marched southward. And the younger brother of Nakula then fought for one whole day with the king of Pandrya. The long-armed hero having vanquished that monarch marched further to the south. And then he beheld the celebrated caves of Kishkindhya and in that region fought for seven days with the monkey-kings Mainda and Dwivida. Those illustrious kings however, without being tired an the encounter, were gratified with Sahadeva. And joyfully addressing the Kuru prince, they said,--'O tiger among the sons of Pandu, go hence, taking with the tribute from us all. Let the mission of the king Yudhishthira the just possessed of great intelligence, be accomplished without hindrance. And taking jewels and gems from them all, the hero marched towards the city of Mahishmati, and there that bull of men did battle with king Nila. The battle that took place between king Nila and the mighty Sahadeva the son of Pandu, that slayer of hostile heroes, was fierce and terrible. And the encounter was an exceedingly bloody one, and the life of the hero himself was exposed to great risk, for the god Agni himself assisted king Nila in that fight. Then the cars, heroes, elephants, and the soldiers in their coats of mail of Sahadeva's army all appeared to be on fire. And beholding this the prince of the Kuru race became exceedingly anxious. And, O Janamejaya, at sight of this the hero could not resolve upon what he should do.

Janamejaya said,--O regenerate one, why was it that the god Agni become hostile in battle unto Sahadeva, who was fighting simply for the accomplishment of a sacrifice (and therefore, for the gratification of Agni himself)?

Vaisampayana said,--'It is said, O Janamejaya, that the god Agni while residing in Mahishmati, earned the reputation of a lover. King Nila had a daughter who was exceedingly beautiful. She used always to stay near the sacred fire of her father, causing it to blaze up with vigour. And it so happened that king Nila's fire, even if fanned, would not blaze up till agitated by the gentle breath of that girl's fair lips. And it was said in King Nila's palace and in the house of all his subjects that the god Agni desired that beautiful girl for his bride. And it so happened that he was accepted by the girl herself. One day the deity assuming the form of a Brahmana, was happily enjoying the society of the fair one, when he was discovered by the king. And the virtuous king thereupon ordered the Brahmana to be punished according to law. At this the illustrious deity flamed up in wrath. And beholding this, the king wondered much and bent his head low on the ground. And after some time the king bowing low bestowed the daughter of his upon the god Agni, disguised as a Brahmana. And the god Vibhabasu (Agni) accepting that fair-browed daughter of king Nila, became gracious unto that monarch. And Agni, the illustrious gratifier of all desires also asked the monarch to beg a boon of him. And the king begged that his troops might never be struck with panic while engaged in battle. And from that time, O king, those monarchs who from ignorance of this, desire to subjugate king Nila's city, are consumed by Hutasana (Agni). And from that time, O perpetuator of the Kuru race, the girls of the city of Mahishmati became rather unacceptable to others (as wives). And Agni by his boon granted them sexual liberty, so that the women of that town always roam about at will, each unbound to a particular husband {Ajanta/Ellora area?}. And, O bull of the Bharata race, from that time the monarchs (of other countries) forsake this city for fear of Agni. And the virtuous Sahadeva, beholding his troops afflicted with fear and surrounded by flames of fire, himself stood there immovable as a mountain. And purifying himself and touching water, the hero (Sahadeva) then addressed Agni, the god that sanctifieth everything, in these words,--
...

Vaisampayana continued.--'He that will pour clarified butter into Agni reciting these mantras, will ever be blessed with prosperity, and having his soul under complete control will also be cleansed from all his sins.

"Sahadeva, addressing Agni again, said,--'O carrier of the sacrificial libations, it behoveth thee not to obstruct a sacrifice!' Having said this, that tiger among men--the son of Madri--spreading some kusa grass on earth sat down in expectation of the (approaching) fire and in front of those terrified and anxious troops of his. And Agni, too, like the ocean that never transgresseth its continents, did not pass over his head. On the other hand approaching Sahadeva quietly and addressing that prince of the Kuru race, Agni that god of men gave him every assurance and said,--'O thou of the Kuru race, rise up from this posture. O rise up, I was only trying thee. I know all thy purpose, as also those of the son of Dharma (Yudhisthira). But, O best of the Bharata race, as long as there is a descendant of king Nila's line, so long should this town be protected by me. I will, however O son of Pandu, gratify the desires of thy heart. And at these words of Agni, O bull of the Bharata race, the son of Madri rose up with a cheerful heart, and joining his hands and bending his head worshipped that god of fire, sanctifier of all beings. And at last, after Agni had disappeared, king Nila came there, and at the command of that deity, worshipped with due rites Sahadeva, that tiger among men--that master of battle. And Sahadeva accepted that worship and made him pay tribute. And having brought king Nila under his sway thus, the victorious son of Madri then went further towards the south. The long-armed hero then brought the king of Tripura {???} of immeasurable energy under his sway. And next turning his forces against the Paurava kingdom, he vanquished and reduced to subjection the monarch thereof. And the prince, after this, with great efforts brought Akriti, the king of Saurashtra and preceptor of the Kausikas {What does this mean?} under his sway. The virtuous prince, while staying in the kingdom of Saurashtra sent an ambassador unto king Rukmin of Bhishmaka within the territories of Bhojakata, who, rich in possessions and intelligence, was the friend of Indra himself. And the monarch along with his son, remembering their relationship with Krishna, cheerfully accepted, O king, the sway of the son of Pandu. And the master of battle then, having exacted jewels and wealth from king Rukmin, marched further to the south. And, endued with great energy and great strength, the hero then, reduced to subjection, Surparaka and Talakata, and the Dandakas also. The Kuru warrior then vanquished and brought under his subjection numberless kings of the Mlechchha tribe living on the sea coast, and the Nishadas and the cannibals and even the Karnapravarnas, and those tribes also called the Kalamukhas who were a cross between human beings and Rakshasas, and the whole of the Cole mountains, and also Surabhipatna, and the island called the Copper island, and the mountain called Ramaka. The high-souled warrior, having brought under subjection king Timingila, conquered a wild tribe known by the name of the Kerakas who were men with one leg. The son of Pandu also conquered the town of Sanjayanti and the country of the Pashandas and the Karahatakas by means of his messengers alone, and made all of them pay tributes to him. The hero brought under his subjection and exacted tributes from the Paundrayas and the Dravidas along with the Udrakeralas and the Andhras and the Talavanas, the Kalingas and the Ushtrakarnikas, and also the delightful city of Atavi and that of the Yavanas. And, O king of kings, that slayer of all foes, the virtuous and intelligent son of Madri having arrived at the sea-shore, then despatched with great assurance messengers unto the illustrious Vibhishana, the grandson of Pulastya {Again probably the clan of Vibheeshana}. And the monarch willingly accepted the sway of the son of Pandu, for that intelligent and exalted king regarded it all as the act of Time. And he sent unto the son of Pandu diverse kinds of jewels and gems, and sandal and also wood, and many celestial ornaments, and much costly apparel, and many valuable pearls. And the intelligent Sahadeva, accepting them all, returned to his own kingdom.