2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

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Amber G.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

To add to what Bade said..
One more time, I think it is helpful to notice that the following can lead to a common misunderstanding..
Theo_Fidel wrote: From my point of view it would be very easy to 'spin' this one way or another. We know the number is not zero, until we know what the exact number should be we can only go with the linear hypothesis.
Nice argument and seems reasonable but we do NOT know (if the number is not zero, or even it is positive)
Let me just post a graph JwalaMukhi's posted sometime ago:
Image
See it has NO data point for low or very low doses. Assuming something because of a model is not a scientific data point.
Theo_Fidel

Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Theo_Fidel »

That's a very deceptive argument. Obviously cancers occur naturally. Birth defects occur naturally. A certain subset of these is caused by radiation. Now how are you going to distinguish between natural and man made radiation. Are you telling me zero cancers are caused by radiation just because we can't sort through them.

Note that Radon gas increase on average only doubles the exposure so say 10-15 Milisieverts. And only when at home. So are you saying Radon gas causes no cancer deaths. Lack of data point does not mean something does not exist. There are many things our instruments are not yet sensitive to. It just means we can measure it with certainty yet. In fact there is no data point below 100 which means we need better instrumentation.

Right now all you are doing is scaring me even more about what we do not know. Let me point out that 4 million people live within 25 km of Kudankulam. Your chart shows that a 100-200 milisievert dose in certain studies approaches 1% cancer rate. This would mean 40,000 people affected if it got that bad. Just in that area. Compare this to the 170,000 evacuated in japan from 20 km radius. This is another reason I think nuclear should not be for India. Our population density is far too high and to close to these plants. Even small spikes in cancer/birth defects/etc will increase the numbers rapidly.

WRT to airborne radiation that is a function of the volatiles and particles that were initially in the air due to explosions. The workers continued to work after their dosimeters triggered alarms and went offscale high above 20 milisieverts in a matter of seconds. There is a lot TEPCO does/did not know esp. in the early days.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 11 Apr 2011 04:28, edited 1 time in total.
Mort Walker
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

Lets keep in mind grid power was indeed lost in the earthquake its self. The generators were running when the Tsunami hit. Which was part of the reason they were completely shredded. Other than that all radioactivity issues began only when the batteries died. 8 hours later. I still have a hard time understanding this number. I've worked on medium hardened data facilities that keep 7-14 days worth of battery backup.
Running many industrial pumps takes far far more current than does a server farm. Keep in mind, batteries in industrial operations are massive lead-acid type and require regular servicing. Radioactivity became an issue since the operators had to vent steam. Similar to a pressure cooker.
Theo_Fidel

Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Mort the batteries I'm talking about are industrial strength Zinc/Air or Mg/Air or Li/SO2 type specialized batteries. These are mostly use once types. Lead Acid is just too dangerous, susceptible to fire/leaks and under powered for really critical applications. And we are only talking about the pumps and some critical apps right, not the entire facility.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 11 Apr 2011 04:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

Theo_Fidel wrote:That's a very deceptive argument. Obviously cancers occur naturally. Birth defects occur naturally. A certain subset of these is caused by radiation. Now how are you going to distinguish between natural and man made radiation. Are you telling me zero cancers are caused by radiation just because we can't sort through them.

Note that Radon gas increase on average only doubles the exposure so say 10-15 Milisieverts. And only when at home. So are you saying Radon gas causes no cancer deaths. Lack of data point does not mean something does not exist. There are many things our instruments are not yet sensitive to. It just means we can measure it with certainty yet. In fact there is no data point below 100 which means we need better instrumentation.

Right now all you are doing is scaring me even more about what we do not know. Let me point out that 4 million people live within 25 km of Kudankulam. Your chart shows that a 100 milisievert dose in certain studies approaches 1% cancer rate. This would mean 40,000 people affected if it got that bad. Just in that area.

WRT to airborne radiation that is a function of the volatiles and particles that were initially in the air due to explosions. The workers continued to work after their dosimeters triggered alarms and went offscale high above 20 milisieverts in a matter of seconds. There is a lot TEPCO does/did not know esp. in the early days.

Oh boy. Take a step back. Cancer occurs from many things, primarily lifestyle, food and things you inject in to your body, like cigarette smoke. If it occurs at a rate which is indistinguishable from this "background" it simply can't be measured. If Kundankulam didn't exist, the cancer rates would not necessarily be lower in a 25 Km radius.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Mort the batteries I'm talking about are industrial strength Zinc/Air or Mg/Air or Li/SO2 type specialized batteries. These are mostly use once types. Lead Acid is just too dangerous, susceptible to fire/leaks and under powered for really critical applications.
For the current capacities needed, lead-acid is still safer than the types you mentioned.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote:Protest begin in Japan

http://en.rian.ru/world/20110410/163458489.html

Japanese rally against nuclear power industry
About 15,000 people took to the streets in Tokyo on Sunday to protest against the nuclear power industry after a devastating earthquake caused meltdown at the Fukushima nuclear plant, the Kyodo agency said on Sunday.
The Japanese media now begins to call the incident at Fukushima as it should have been called after day 3 -- meltdown.
Alas it doesn't. The link belongs to a russian media (wonder why?) 'quoting' the Japanese media. I guess it reflects on the quality of (Russian)DM in particular (or the people who seek to learn from such sources) :D

The original Kyodo news link is here.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/84371.html

Such are the intelligent inputs that we get from the non-specialist media sources:) So much is lost in translation. which is why some folks can confidently conflate two completely different stories and assert that Jap authorities had tested a model and had concluded that a 20 m tsunami was possible, TEPCO didn't listen therefore people resigned in protest etc etc
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by arnab »

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?271231

Evidence Meltdown

The anti-nuclear movement to which I once belonged has misled the world about the dangers of radiation — their claims are ungrounded in science, unsupportable when challenged and wildly wrong

George Monbiot
For the past 25 years, anti-nuclear campaigners have been racking up the figures for deaths and diseases caused by the Chernobyl disaster, and parading deformed babies like a mediaevel circus. They now claim that 985,000 people have been killed by Chernobyl, and that it will continue to slaughter people for generations to come. These claims are false.
Like John Vidal and many others, Helen Caldicott pointed me to a book which claims that 985,000 people have died as a result of the disaster(14). Translated from Russian and published by the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, this is the only document which looks scientific and appears to support the wild claims made by greens about Chernobyl.
A devastating review in the journal Radiation Protection Dosimetry points out that the book achieves its figure by the remarkable method of assuming that all increased deaths from a wide range of diseases – including many which have no known association with radiation – were caused by the accident(15). There is no basis for this assumption, not least because screening in many countries improved dramatically after the disaster and, since 1986, there have been massive changes in the former eastern bloc. The study makes no attempt to correlate exposure to radiation with the incidence of disease(16).
Read it all...
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by GuruPrabhu »

arnab wrote:
For the past 25 years, anti-nuclear campaigners have been racking up the figures for deaths and diseases caused by the Chernobyl disaster, and parading deformed babies like a mediaevel circus.
A similar effort exists in Andhra, where all sorts of deformed babies etc are paraded without any indication of whether a) such deformities are in excess above some national average, or b) there is some causation due to uranium mining.

Some of the most prolific contributors to this thread may soon be joining ranks with this anti-Indian brigade.
Theo_Fidel

Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Since we were discussing Chernobyl... .. a relatively realistic estimate. What are we thinking allowing our children to smoke...

http://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2006/pr168.html
Dr Boyle added that: "Based on these models, the number of cancer cases in Europe possibly resulting from radiation exposure from the Chernobyl accident in the lifetime of the exposed populations, is expected to be large in absolute terms." Dr Elisabeth Cardis, Head of the IARC Radiation Group, provided greater detail: "By 2065 (i.e. in the eighty years following the accident), predictions based on these models indicate that about 16,000 cases3 of thyroid cancer and 25,000 cases of other cancers may be expected due to radiation from the accident and that about 16,000 deaths from these cancers may occur."
Most of the cancer burden rests with the most exposed populations: "About two-thirds of the thyroid cancer cases and at least one half of the other cancers are expected to occur in Belarus, Ukraine and the most contaminated territories of the Russian Federation", she said. These are the three countries in proximity to the site of the accident.

But she added: "While these figures all reflect human suffering and death, they nevertheless represent only a very small fraction of the total number of cancers seen since the accident and expected in the future in Europe. Indeed, our analysis of the trends in cancer incidence and mortality does not demonstrate any increase that can be clearly attributed to the Chernobyl accident. The exception is thyroid cancer, which, over ten years ago, was already shown to be increased in the most contaminated regions around the site of the accident."

Dr Boyle concluded that "This study is unique in that it applies state-of-the-art radiation risk projection models to updated estimates of radiation dose from Chernobyl throughout Europe, and also includes a comprehensive examination of trends in cancer incidence and mortality data. It provides the best estimates to date of the impact of the Chernobyl accident on cancer in Europe. To put it in perspective, tobacco smoking will cause several thousand times more cancers in the same population".
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by abhishek_sharma »

New Doubts About Turning Plutonium Into a Fuel

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/us/11mox.html
On a tract of government land along the Savannah River in South Carolina, an army of workers is building one of the nation’s most ambitious nuclear enterprises in decades: a plant that aims to safeguard at least 43 tons of weapons-grade plutonium by mixing it into fuel for commercial power reactors.

The project grew out of talks with the Russians to shrink nuclear arsenals after the cold war. The plant at the Savannah River Site, once devoted to making plutonium for weapons, would now turn America’s lethal surplus to peaceful ends. Blended with uranium, the usual reactor fuel, the plutonium would be transformed into a new fuel called mixed oxide, or mox.

“We are literally turning swords into plowshares,” one of the project’s biggest boosters, Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, said at a hearing on Capitol Hill last week.

But 11 years after the government awarded a construction contract, the cost of the project has soared to nearly $5 billion. The vast concrete and steel structure is a half-finished hulk, and the government has yet to find a single customer, despite offers of lucrative subsidies.

Now, the nuclear crisis in Japan has intensified a long-running conflict over the project’s rationale.

One of the stricken Japanese reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi plant uses the mox fuel. And while there has been no evidence of dangerous radiation from plutonium in Japan, the situation there is volatile, and nuclear experts worry that a widespread release of radioactive material could increase cancer deaths.

Against that backdrop, the South Carolina project has been thrown on the defensive, with would-be buyers distancing themselves and critics questioning its health risks and its ability to keep the plutonium out of terrorists’ hands.

The most likely customer, the Tennessee Valley Authority, has been in discussions with the federal Department of Energy about using mox to replace a third of the regular uranium fuel in several reactors — a far greater concentration than at the stricken Japanese reactor, Fukushima Daiichi’s Unit No. 3, where 6 percent of the core is made out of mox. But the T.V.A. now says it will delay any decision until officials can see how the mox performed at Fukushima Daiichi, including how hot the fuel became and how badly it was damaged.

“We are studying the ongoing events in Japan very closely,” said Ray Golden, a spokesman for the utility.

At the same time, opponents of the South Carolina project scored a regulatory victory this month when a federal atomic licensing panel, citing “significant public safety and national security issues,” ordered new hearings on the plans for tracking and safeguarding the plutonium used at the plant.

Obama administration officials say that mox is safe, and they remain confident that the project will attract customers once it is further along and can guarantee a steady fuel supply. Anne Harrington, who oversees nuclear nonproliferation programs for the Energy Department, noted that six countries besides Japan had licensed the routine use of mox fuel. She accused critics of “an opportunistic attempt” to score political points by seizing on Japan’s crisis.

“Mox is nothing new,” she said.

Even so, the critics say there is an increasing likelihood that the South Carolina project will fail to go forward and will become what a leading opponent, Edwin Lyman of the Union of Concerned Scientists, calls a “plant to nowhere.” That would leave the United States without a clear path for the disposal of its surplus plutonium.

A cheaper alternative, encasing it in glass, was canceled in 2002 by President George W. Bush’s administration. The energy secretary at the time, Spencer Abraham, is now the non-executive chairman of the American arm of Areva, a French company that is the world’s largest mox producer and is primarily responsible for building the South Carolina plant.

After the cold war, the United States and Russia were left with stockpiles of plutonium, and the fear was that one or the other would reverse course and use the plutonium to make new weapons, or that, in what the National Academies of Science called a “clear and present danger,” thieves could make off with it.

Plutonium is easy to handle because the radiation it gives off is persistent but relatively weak. The type used in weapons, plutonium 239, has a half-life of 24,000 years and emits alpha rays. They make the plutonium feel warm to the touch but are so feeble that skin easily stops the radiation. If trapped inside the body, though, alpha rays can cause cancer.

At the same time, plutonium is preferred over uranium as nuclear bomb fuel because much less is needed to make a blast of equal size. And while it is difficult to work with, it does not need to undergo the complex process of purification required for uranium.

The 43 tons of surplus plutonium in the American stockpile could fuel up to 10,000 nuclear weapons and even more “dirty bombs” — ordinary explosives that spew radioactive debris. Alternatively, they could fuel 43 large reactors for about a year.

After studying a range of options, the Clinton administration decided to build a mox fuel plant to dispose of a portion of the plutonium, awarding a contract to a consortium now called Shaw Areva Mox Services.

The rest of the plutonium was to be mixed with highly radioactive nuclear waste and immobilized in glass or ceramic blocks, making it difficult and dangerous for any thief to extract. The government judged the mox route to be more expensive, but the dual-track approach was seen as insurance should either fail.

That strategy also helped persuade Jim Hodges, the Democratic governor of South Carolina from 1999 to 2003, to sign off on plutonium shipments to the Savannah River Site. When the Bush administration canceled the glass-block disposal program, Mr. Hodges was furious.

His concern, he said in a recent interview, was that South Carolina would become a dumping ground if the mox program did not work out because of political or technical difficulties. “That site was never designed for long-term plutonium storage,” he said. “We were concerned about health and safety.” Now, he said, that dumping ground is in danger of coming to pass.

Mr. Abraham said that budget cuts had made it necessary to end one of the programs, and that with the Russians favoring mox, the administration had feared that going the other route would discourage Moscow from keeping its end of the bargain. (Only later, Mr. Abraham added, did he decide to join Areva in a largely advisory role.)

“The politics of it — both from a budget standpoint and in terms of the Russian comfort level — both argued for going to the mox-only approach,” he said.

If mox fuel was to be licensed for widespread use, though, Washington first needed to have it tested in reactors. Duke Energy agreed to use French-made mox. The government paid $26 million to prepare a reactor, according to the Energy Department. But a test in 2005 was aborted after the fuel began behaving strangely. Though the problem was ultimately traced to a different material in the fuel assemblies, Duke subsequently said it had no further plans to test or use the mox.

Along the way, the cost of the South Carolina project, originally about $1 billion, nearly quintupled. Energy Department officials said cost increases were to be expected because the original estimates were rough approximations. The sprawling plant, which is just south of Aiken, S.C., is to be bigger in size than eight football fields, and its construction currently employs nearly 2,000 workers.

For other countries, plutonium is seen as an opportunity rather than a problem. Nearly all reactors produce some plutonium as a byproduct of splitting atoms in two, and it can be gathered from spent fuel and mixed with uranium to make mox.

The United States, worried that plutonium recycling would contribute to the global spread of nuclear weapons, gave it up during the Carter administration. President Obama’s panel on America’s nuclear future is considering whether to recommend a return to recycling.

The Japanese government has followed the recycling path, despite citizens’ protests about possible safety risks. In the wake of the accident at the Fukushima Daiichi plant, officials at Areva, which supplied the mox fuel for Reactor No. 3 there, are cautioning against drawing hasty conclusions.

“Mox was not the cause of that accident, and the consequences of it have not been impacted by mox,” said David Jones, a vice president at Areva, which has been providing on-the-ground assistance in Japan.

There is no clear evidence that plutonium has been released by the mox-loaded Japanese reactor; small traces found at the site could have come from other sources or from the site’s other reactors. But Reactor No. 3 is one of three at Fukushima Daiichi that are judged to have undergone at least partial meltdowns, and experts are debating whether high radiation readings beneath the reactor vessels indicate that they have begun to leak. It would take full meltdowns, high heat and the rupture of a reactor’s containment vessel to loft substantial plutonium into the air.

The dangers vary depending on the chain of events that led to the accident and the concentration of mox in the reactor core. Even so, studies show that a nuclear meltdown and containment failure in a reactor that holds mox would result in more cancer deaths than one in a reactor fueled only with uranium.

In 2001, Dr. Lyman, a Cornell-trained physicist who has led the battle against mox, published a detailed study in the journal Science & Global Security that concluded the fuel could produce up to 30 percent more cancer deaths.

Energy Department officials do not dispute that there would be additional health consequences, but they see them as less severe than the critics have predicted. In any event, they argue, a major release of plutonium would require an accident so severe that the additional health effects would amount to a “sliver on top of a mountaintop.”

“It’s not that significant — 10 percent or less,” said Kenneth Bromberg, the department’s assistant deputy administrator for fissile materials disposition.

“Proliferation causes a far greater danger to a far greater number of people than highly controlled use of this fuel in a reactor,” said Ms. Harrington, his boss.

But critics say that in its efforts to move the mox program along, the government has undercut the nonproliferation benefits by allowing or entertaining exceptions to a number of its rules for safeguarding plutonium.

Disposing of plutonium by burning it in reactors involves moving and then storing mox fuel at a commercial site. Such a plan, they argue, could make the fuel vulnerable to theft before it is irradiated into something that would be too deadly to steal.

But at the request of Duke Energy, which had agreed to test the fuel, the government decided to exempt nuclear plants that burn mox from special security requirements imposed on other facilities that handled “strategic special nuclear material” like plutonium.

In doing so, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission overruled its own Atomic Safety Licensing Board, which had recommended a middle ground requiring some additional security. But the commissioners reasoned that mox encased in heavy assemblies would not be as attractive to terrorists as pure plutonium, and so did not require the same level of security.

Jeffrey Merrifield, one of the commission members who voted on the matter, now works for the Shaw Group, which is designing the mox plant with Areva. He said in a statement that he had not discussed jobs with the company until after the vote and that he works in a section unrelated to the mox project.

The Shaw Areva Group requested an exception to the government’s material control and accounting standards for plutonium. Though the company subsequently withdrew the request, it led the Atomic Safety Licensing Board to rule that more hearings were needed to determine whether the Savannah River plant was capable of keeping track of the plutonium that is expected to move through it and on to commercial utilities.

In a statement, Shaw Areva said, “We continue to believe that the mox project meets all the regulatory requirements for licensing, and we welcome the opportunity to present our case” in hearings this year.

Ms. Harrington said security at the Savannah River Site was so tight that “I’d defy anyone to walk in and walk out with any of our plutonium.”

Still, Mr. Abraham, the former energy secretary, says that given the crisis in Japan, he understands the hesitation of utilities to embrace mox.

“I can’t imagine any utility would say, ‘Yeah, we are going to ignore Japan,’ ” he said. “I think the dust has to settle here.”
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by GuruPrabhu »

abhishek_sharma wrote:New Doubts About Turning Plutonium Into a Fuel

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/us/11mox.html
Allow me to highlight parts of this piece:

“We are literally turning swords into plowshares,” one of the project’s biggest boosters, Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, said at a hearing on Capitol Hill last week.


Anne Harrington, who oversees nuclear nonproliferation programs for the Energy Department, noted that six countries besides Japan had licensed the routine use of mox fuel. She accused critics of “an opportunistic attempt” to score political points by seizing on Japan’s crisis.

“Mox is nothing new,” she said.

For other countries, plutonium is seen as an opportunity rather than a problem. Nearly all reactors produce some plutonium as a byproduct of splitting atoms in two, and it can be gathered from spent fuel and mixed with uranium to make mox.

The United States, worried that plutonium recycling would contribute to the global spread of nuclear weapons, gave it up during the Carter administration. President Obama’s panel on America’s nuclear future is considering whether to recommend a return to recycling.

“Mox was not the cause of that accident, and the consequences of it have not been impacted by mox,” said David Jones, a vice president at Areva, which has been providing on-the-ground assistance in Japan.

There is no clear evidence that plutonium has been released by the mox-loaded Japanese reactor; small traces found at the site could have come from other sources or from the site’s other reactors.

In a statement, Shaw Areva said, “We continue to believe that the mox project meets all the regulatory requirements for licensing, and we welcome the opportunity to present our case” in hearings this year.

Ms. Harrington said security at the Savannah River Site was so tight that “I’d defy anyone to walk in and walk out with any of our plutonium.”
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by vina »

abhishek_sharma wrote:New Doubts About Turning Plutonium Into a Fuel

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/us/11mox.html
Ah.. Maha Prilly-Ant. Just what the Daaktur ordered . Nice opening for SDRES to do YumBeeYea and Laayur Giri and do jaw-jaw and import all the waste Poo that gets generated in uranium powered reactors like a baby going through his diapers and just junk that 2nd stage Poo generating stage, put metal to the floor on the AHWR kind of Thermal Breeder reactors which breed Thorium and import the Poo from all over the duniya and saving it and helping the world and earning tankoo tankoo from all the greens and gumbints around the world and finally , give the Ungli to the White-Pakis , the Australians and their Uranium and we can tell them to stuff their "Ur-anium" appropriately as stuff "Stuff Ur-Anium up UrAnus"!

And of course to get it pulped, canned and gulped with a nice jingle, there is a ready made one one liner from Pepsi here.
"Ungli mein tingli , Ungli mein tingli. . Aha!"
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by harbans »

Many motivated groups/ ideologies follow the same policy. Idea is to gain a quick, possible more than short term large mass based impact and live of it. Green lobbies do it, WHO did it on India's HIV stats a few years back. Same has been done in Kashmir which we euphemize as 10000000 Soldiers etc, number of Malnourished in India (even though there is a large body of evidence to show Poverty and Malnourishment need not be connected), NGO's do it all the time for funding, we saw the same in the Tsunami with the Oxford DU pass outs and their patrons in UKistan crticizing the IAF for not allowing OXFAM reps on board. There's a pattern where common basic science and rational is thrown to the dogs. This is hapening on the radiation front too. Misinformation has to be battled dodgedly. Facts have to be put up incessantly to counter noise. Tragedy is these do not reach a mass critical base to offset Paki type proganda. The disproved HIV miscalculations were buried in page 16, the noise on VHP groups targetting Churches in the media and the subsequent trials and conviction of Deendar Anjuman members years later buried in Page 29 Column 4 bottom half beside a Nirma ad..doesn't really do much.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by amit »

harbans wrote:Many motivated groups/ ideologies follow the same policy. Idea is to gain a quick, possible more than short term large mass based impact and live of it. Green lobbies do it, WHO did it on India's HIV stats a few years back. Same has been done in Kashmir which we euphemize as 10000000 Soldiers etc, number of Malnourished in India (even though there is a large body of evidence to show Poverty and Malnourishment need not be connected), NGO's do it all the time for funding, we saw the same in the Tsunami with the Oxford DU pass outs and their patrons in UKistan crticizing the IAF for not allowing OXFAM reps on board. There's a pattern where common basic science and rational is thrown to the dogs. This is hapening on the radiation front too. Misinformation has to be battled dodgedly. Facts have to be put up incessantly to counter noise. Tragedy is these do not reach a mass critical base to offset Paki type proganda. The disproved HIV miscalculations were buried in page 16, the noise on VHP groups targetting Churches in the media and the subsequent trials and conviction of Deendar Anjuman members years later buried in Page 29 Column 4 bottom half beside a Nirma ad..doesn't really do much.
Harbans ji,

Very well said, please accept my personal thank you for taking a step back and giving us the big picture.

But I need to ask this question. Folks like Amber, GP et al have been accused of pandering to various pro-nuclear lobbies and answering to "foreign masters" to the detriment of Indian interests.

Has the time now come to question the motives of these accusers?
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

^^^^ Harbans; yes a lot of people use rhetoric instead of science, including NPP vendors and so on. Nuclear power as panacea is as much a hot air money making scam as any other of the ones listed. That is why it is important to reflect on all available data and not start a shooting match with "my PoV is bigger than most, rest are morons" type of posts.

Till Fukushima happened, the mainstream media was ga-ga about Japan's marvelous record of reducing green house gases, (based on questionable data) and how Global warming was the main villain. So yeah, media does tend to lurch about, but thats par for the course.

Clearly there are many fairly reliable scientific indicators which go against the mainstream view, and most have been consistent since before Fukushima incident. They were not written post Fukushima.

-==================--
arnab wrote:
The original Kyodo news link is here.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/84371.html
:lol: That is one link not the original link.

I will leave this as an exercise to you to find out which Japanese media called it a meltdown. BTW every one is calling it a partial meltdown now, a beautiful phrase, just like almost virgin.
:lol:

Here's one more

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/japa ... um=twitter

Japan says may extend nuclear evacuations

Residents of one village, Iitate which is 40 km from the Fukushima Daiichi plant, have been told to prepare for evacuation because of prolonged exposure to radiation, a local official told Reuters by phone. The village has a population of 5,000.

The International Atomic Energy Agency has urged Japan to extend the zone and countries like the United States and Australia have advised citizens to stay 80 km away from the plant.

In a desperate move to cool highly radioactive fuel rods, operator Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) <9501.t> has pumped water onto reactors, some of which have experienced partial meltdown.
The Japanese Govt continue to be pig headed and ignore better counsel, in desperate bid to show "all izzz well"

===================

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/scien ... .html?_r=1

From Afar, a Vivid Picture of Japan Crisis
Now, as a result of the crisis in Japan, the atomic simulations suggest that the number of serious accidents has suddenly doubled, with three of the reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi complex in some stage of meltdown. Even so, the public authorities have sought to avoid grim technical details that might trigger alarm or even panic.

“They don’t want to go there,” said Robert Alvarez, a nuclear expert who, from 1993 to 1999, was a policy adviser to the secretary of energy. “The spin is all about reassurance.”

If events in Japan unfold as they did at Three Mile Island in Pennsylvania, the forensic modeling could go on for some time. It took more than three years before engineers lowered a camera to visually inspect the damaged core of the Pennsylvania reactor, and another year to map the extent of the destruction. The core turned out to be about half melted.

By definition, a meltdown is the severe overheating of the core of a nuclear reactor that results in either the partial or full liquefaction of its uranium fuel and supporting metal lattice, at times with the atmospheric release of deadly radiation. Partial meltdowns usually strike a core’s middle regions instead of the edge, where temperatures are typically lower.

The lofting of the latter particles in large quantities points to “substantial fuel melting,” Dr. Henry said.
Take away from above.

“I don’t think there’s any mystery or foul play,” Dr. Po said of the disaster’s scale. “It’s just so bad.”

Sorry folks, its quite simple, there is a meltdown, the containment is broken, there is airborne radiation (which should be quite obvious to what it is) and AT LEAST 40 km zone has seen enough radioactivity to increase chances of cancer (as seen by previous studies)

The Japanese Govt is waffling still and dont have the guts to come out and say as it is -- since they cant handle the fallout.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Lalmohan »

sorry sanku

there is only SPECULATION about a meltdown, there is SPECULATION about broken containment and there clearly is some degree of airborne and waterborne radiation, the extent and causes of which have been fairly well documented. None of the various experts being quoted seem to have been anywhere near to Fukushima, and in most cases any NPP in the recent past

the phrase meltdown itself is quite excitingly dramatic isnt it? And I remain impressed by your ability to know more than the Japanese government and all the various agencies working on the site. Clearly there are superior sources of information making their way out to the world and finding their way to you, which is perhaps why you continue your abusive tone with everyone here
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote:.

-==================--

I will leave this as an exercise to you to find out which Japanese media called it a meltdown. BTW every one is calling it a partial meltdown now, a beautiful phrase, just like almost virgin.
:lol:

Here's one more

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/japa ... um=twitter

Japan says may extend nuclear evacuations
Your 'evacuation' story is irrelevant. They are saying to change the standards to 10 msv from 50 msv currently, to begin evacuations. Please show us the Kyoda quote of a melt down (You were big on direct quotes not so long ago) :)

alas a 'partial' melt down means some of the tubes housing the pellets may have melted. It is different from a reactor melt down which happenned in Chernobyl (which causes such angst) :)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/busin ... gewanted=1

In April 1986, as workers and engineers scrambled to keep the Chernobyl nuclear power plant’s molten radioactive uranium from burrowing into the earth — the so-called China syndrome — a Soviet physicist on the scene devised a makeshift solution for containing remnants of the liquefied core.
In the end the improvised core-catcher was not needed. The melted fuel burned through three stories of the reactor’s basement but stopped at the foundation — where the mass remains so highly radioactive that scientists still cannot approach it.
To put it in your argument. Calling Fukishima a meltdown is akin to arguing the alleged 'partial fizzle' was actually a thermo nuclear explosion because some fusion occured :)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Lalmohan wrote:sorry sanku

there is only SPECULATION about a meltdown, there is SPECULATION about broken containment and there clearly is some degree of airborne and waterborne radiation, the extent and causes of which have been fairly well documented. None of the various experts being quoted seem to have been anywhere near to Fukushima, and in most cases any NPP in the recent past
Sorry Sir, if you want CONFIRMATION that MELTDOWN has happened, it will be only after 2 years or more (or never) -- the TMI CONFIRMATION came TWO YEARS after the incident.

In this case the matter is complicated by TEPCO's track and present record of being economical with the truth.

It however is fairly CLEAR that IT DOES NOT MATTER if Japan Govt DOES NOT CONFIRM.
And I remain impressed by your ability to know more than the Japanese government and all the various agencies working on the site.
Lalmohan-ji; I am remain un-impressed by YOUR take on ascribing 1000+ reports in ALL media including all manners of Nuclear experts to me.

I would love to take credit for writing on the wall and all their work.

However I am not Lord Krishna, and I dont contain the entire universe in me.

But yes, if you take the stand that ONLY TEPCO can confirm and no one else (including note GoTUS working on same data that Japanese govt has, since they share data) what am I to say.

Perhaps we will need confirmation of the scam from A Raja -- till then there is no scam, like Kapil Sibal thinks.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

From Indian Nuclear News....
amit wrote:
chaanakya wrote:1. I am not quite sure if plant survived in the sense it could be worked again. But that depends what you meant by "survival". There was partial meltdown, but then it is not the end of the world story as we all know. Japanese have done well despite all odds.
Chaanakya,

Sorry for a late reply to your post, was away for a few days.

Your reading is wrong. The plant would have survived if the auxiliary generators had not been knocked out after the power line went. All available information shows that the cooling rods were inserted automatically once the earthquake struck and the reactors went into automatic shutdown mode, as indeed did other reactors in Japan.

If the tsunami hadn't struck, it's pretty obvious that the chain reaction that occurred with the hydrogen explosions etc would most probably have not happened. Note that didn't happen in any of the plants in Japan which did not have their auxiliary power units taken out.

So my original contention that the basic reactor survived despite a quake 7-8 time greater than the design tolerance limits stands. The 40-year Gen I design proved remarkably rugged. I would assume today's Gen III would be even more rugged.
Presently it is at 2.5 % so I don't know what options are foregone?
Yes presently it's in that range but why do you suppose that it's going to stay at that range for all times to come?
Well I think in its present status it is as good as gone. That's what I meant by "survived".

Yes it could have survived Tsunami had it been prepared for it. Clearly it wasn't. Few other plants seem to have done better.

LOP and LOCA are fairly common accident conditions for which plant always need to guard against as it leads to one step away from total failure. I think , by now, enough basic material exists to indicate that TEPCO failed to do that despite being forewarned.

Second point is that basic reactor is not the only component which needs to be protected. It's protection requires many other units , auxiliary systems to function as well. So if others fails, reactor would also fail as we can see.


I don't know where I presupposed that it would remain at 2.5%?
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote: Sorry Sir, if you want CONFIRMATION that MELTDOWN has happened, it will be only after 2 years or more (or never) -- In It however is fairly CLEAR that IT DOES NOT MATTER if Japan Govt DOES NOT CONFIRM.
It may never be confirmed but Sankuji knows that a meltdown has occured, Heh heh science is a religion afterall :)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote: To put it in your argument. Calling Fukishima a meltdown is akin to arguing the alleged 'partial fizzle' was actually a thermo nuclear explosion because some fusion occured :)
Actually yes, there was thermo-nuclear explosion in limited manner. The question there was extent and yield. Even critics said "some" fusion had happened.

Anyway, I fail to see the point? Is your point that only that ONE Kyodo article does not have meltdown word so no meltdown happened? Or Japanese media has not used meltdown word? Or if Russian media uses the word meltdown quoting Japanese sources (not the article which YOU claim is original they must be wrong)

I am tired of these spinning exercises of looking at things in "perspective" -- there is no perspective business here, what is is.

And liberally calling all world media and nuclear experts as morons etc is not going to cut it any longer.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by amit »

chaanakya wrote:From Indian Nuclear News....
Boss my response is in the Indian Nuclear News thread.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote: Sorry Sir, if you want CONFIRMATION that MELTDOWN has happened, it will be only after 2 years or more (or never) -- In It however is fairly CLEAR that IT DOES NOT MATTER if Japan Govt DOES NOT CONFIRM.
It may never be confirmed but Sankuji knows that a meltdown has occured, Heh heh science is a religion afterall :)
It may never be confirmed by TEPCO != it may never be confirmed.

As far as common scientific agreement in world outside TEPCO/Japanese Govt is concerned, nearly everyone says its a meltdown.

There is no cure for willful blindness.

And once again I am deeply gratified :oops: {thank you, thank you} by constant accreditation of the common knowledge of entire world to me, but that doesnt mean I am real enough to know that it is quite meaningless.

:lol:
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:And liberally calling all world media and nuclear experts as morons etc is not going to cut it any longer.
Truth always shines through even from the lips of a non-believer.
Last edited by amit on 11 Apr 2011 12:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote:
arnab wrote: Actually yes, there was thermo-nuclear explosion in limited manner. The question there was extent and yield. Even critics said "some" fusion had happened.

Anyway, I fail to see the point? Is your point that only that ONE Kyodo article does not have meltdown word so no meltdown happened? Or Japanese media has not used meltdown word?
Ah only that the term 'meltdown' that you are using is akin to scaremongering, like the green peace lobby. It generates images of a full scale radioactive lava burrowing down the earth contaminating ground water for ever. None of these has happenned. All the NRC report says (unsubstaniated) is that partial meltdown of fuel rods may have happenned.

So non-fear mongers would generally ask - what does that mean in real terms?
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Lalmohan »

bloomberg is carrying an article saying that given the already weak economy in the earthquake affected region and the aging population, it may no longer be possible to rebuild the affected areas to the same level as before. the salaries in the region are lower, etc., and young people are likely to move to the bigger cities for work. the quake and tsunami may be the catalyst for more permanent population shifts in the region
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote: Ah only that the term 'meltdown' that you are using is akin to scaremongering, like the green peace lobby.
I posted how the technical term of meltdown was applicable in this case. Its a meltdown. I don't expect to create new words. Also Hitler used the word Arayan, it does not stop me from using it either. So I can not be held responsible for what green peace does or does not.

The technical term for what happened in MELTDOWN.

Tough luck for those who don't like it.
It generates images of a full scale radioactive lava burrowing down the earth contaminating ground water for ever
Clearly you need to read more science and less fiction. Then proper images would occur to you -- just a suggestion. Once again I cant be held responsible for what images that term conjures in others.

Meanwhile

Ground water contamination -- check -- around Fukushima.
for ever -- depending on definition of ever (long term?) check
So non-fear mongers would generally ask - what does that mean in real terms?
In real terms it means (note reports for all these have been posted, many by Japanese media too)
--- Ground water and ground contamination for at least 20, and MOST probably 40-80 km radius to make it long term evacuation
--- Long term ban on fishing around Fukushima (20+ km)
--- Long term impact on Fisheries in Japan as other countries band/screen imports.
--- Long term impact on population in 20-80 Km range around Fukushima who should have been evacuated (as per IAEA and GoTUS if you please) but were not.

And the above is conservative.
It also means
--- Europe (modulo france) turning away from Nuclear.
--- High costs of clean-up etc making Nuclear power more expensive in Japan as insurance goes up
--- Probable fall of the ruling clique in Japan (will it lead to long term Japanese resurgence as they shake off the US proxy party?)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ almost all of the above are major extrapolations from the available facts
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ almost all of the above are major extrapolations from the available facts
Not at all. In fact, with all due respect, it was clear very shortly after Tusnami. Just that there is a lag between event, mainstream media reporting, Non-Japanese acceptance, and Japanese acceptance.

For example, two weeks after high radiation levels were officially found in 40 Km distance, they are now evacuating those. Earlier the calls for evacuation were also called fear mongering (including by some on BRF)

Available facts are clear, just that the official sanction on some of the facts is aimed more at managing the mood rather than handling the reality.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by amit »

amit
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:For example, two weeks after high radiation levels were officially found in 40 Km distance, they are now evacuating those. Earlier the calls for evacuation were also called fear mongering (including by some on BRF)
It's always useful to quantify what you want to say, especially since you accuse others of dodgy science.

Japan Broadens Nuclear Evacuation Zone
"Outside the 20-kilometer radius, there are some areas where cumulative radiation levels have been relatively high because of weather and other geographical factors," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters.

Mr. Edano said that the government will evacuate the areas where cumulative radiation exposure over one year may reach 20 millisieverts, based on international standards by the International Atomic Energy Agency and the International Commission On Radiological Protection.
This has been stated before but what the heck. A full-body CT scan can add up to 10-12 millisieverts.
Source here

Instead of commending the Japanese for being extra careful and caring for their citizens, this is twisted as: They lied first, now that they've been found out, they are being forced to extend the exclusion zone.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2 ... brandjapan

Blemishing "brand Japan"
One place where the level of public unease can be measured is on social-networking sites. Since late March the number of messages on Twitter expressing fears about radiation began to exceed the tweets about relief efforts to victims by a ratio of three-to-two, according to Webtrends, a social-media analysis firm.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Lalmohan »

a simple summary from the BBC on what happened and is happening in fukushima
Fukushima: What happened - and what needs to be done
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

M7.0 aftershock briefly halts cooling at Fukushima
A strong aftershock with a preliminary magnitude of 7.0 jolted the eastern and northeastern part of Japan on Monday evening, temporarily disrupting the vital coolant water injection into reactors 1, 2, 3 of the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant for about 50 minutes.

The temblor cut off external power supply to the pumping machines for the three reactors at around 5:16 p.m. Tokyo Electric Power Co. revived the power supply and resumed water injections at 6:05 p.m., according to Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.

If the water injection is stopped for hours, coolant water would be lost again — as happened after the March 11 earthquake and tsunami — and would severely damage the hot fuel rods inside the reactors. Monday's aftershock renewed concerns over the damaged reactors, which Tepco needs to keep cooling down for months to avoid overheating of the fuel rods.

The quake registered lower 6 in parts of Fukushima and Ibaraki prefectures on the Japanese seismic scale to 7, prompting workers at the Fukushima power plant to evacuate temporarily.

The temblor was followed by another earthquake in the same area a minute later with a preliminary magnitude of 6.0. The second quake registered lower 5 in parts of Fukushima Prefecture.

A tsunami warning was issued for Ibaraki Prefecture, which was later withdrawn.

Meanwhile, according to prefectural governments and plant operators, no damage to nuclear facilities in Ibaraki, Niigata, Miyagi and Aomori prefectures was reported Monday evening.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

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Evac area to soon be declared 'off-limits'
Kyodo News
The 20-km evacuation zone around the crisis-hit Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant will soon be turned into a legally binding off-limits zone, senior officials said Sunday.

The step is aimed at increasing government control over the area. Desperate residents have been braving radiation fears for quick return trips to pick up essential belongings. Officials suggested Sunday that they will now be able to force anyone out of the evacuation zone who refuses to leave.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

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55% of Fukushima evacuees worry radiation: survey
More than half of respondents of a survey of evacuees from Fukushima Prefecture, say their biggest future concern is the impact of radiation from the troubled nuclear power plant in the prefecture.

NHK interviewed evacuees last week, originally from Fukushima Prefecture, who are staying at shelters within the prefecture and nearby. 251 people responded.

When asked what is most troubling to them now, 55 percent of respondents said they are frustrated with the lack of accurate information about the nuclear plant, and their future housing prospects. This was followed by 36 percent who said they have to stay at shelters without privacy and 11 percent who said they cannot move easily without their own cars or gasoline.

In terms of the future, 55 percent said they are most concerned about the impact of radiation leaks from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, which has been out of control since the March 11 massive quake and tsunami.

43 percent said they are concerned about future jobs and their livelihood, and 28 percent said they are wondering how to secure a place to live.

One respondent said he has no idea how to stick it out, although everybody tells him to do so. Another person is worried about how he will manage because has lost both his house and land.

For evacuees, anxiety over their future appears to be growing as life at the shelters is dragging on.
Monday, April 11, 2011 15:51 +0900 (JST)
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Nuclear safety regrets its response to Fukushima
The government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency admitted that it has sometimes failed to properly manage the accidents at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

Senior agency official Hidehiko Nishiyama made the statement to reporters on Monday, one month following the quake and tsunami that severely damaged the power plant in northeastern Japan.

Nishiyama said the agency failed to clearly address the problems at the plant, as one emergency followed another.

He said the agency will thoroughly review what it has done so far, so that it can restore the cooling functions of the reactors while preserving the safety of the Japanese people.

The agency is playing a central role in gathering information and overseeing the power plant as the government's nuclear safety regulator. They have dispatched officials to monitor progress at the plant.

But it has been regularly criticized for failing to coordinate media briefings with the power company. They have also been under fire for not providing enough information to the Nuclear Safety Commission, which offers technical advice to the government.
Monday, April 11, 2011 16:22 +0900 (JST)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

amit wrote:
chaanakya wrote:From Indian Nuclear News....
Boss my response is in the Indian Nuclear News thread.
TEPCO president apologizes, one month later
He added that he expects to see the ruined No. 1 through No.4 reactors at the power plant to be decommissioned.
Monday, April 11, 2011 18:02 +0900 (JST)
Well "ruined" does not mean "survived" This from TEPCO Boss only, BOSS.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

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G20 to discuss Japan's nuclear disaster issues
Finance ministers and central bank chiefs of the Group of 20 nations will likely discuss Japan's efforts to overcome the March 11 disaster and to deal with the nuclear emergency at their next meeting.

The meeting will be held on Thursday and Friday in Washington. Japanese Finance Minister Yoshihiko Noda and Bank of Japan Governor Masaaki Shirakawa will be attending.

With a number of Japanese factories still closed, G20 nations are becoming increasingly concerned that shortages of machinery parts made in Japan may have an impact overseas. Concerns are also mounting over the prolonged troubles at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

Observers say participants will likely discuss how Japan could deal with the aftermath of the disaster. The Japanese side is expected to explain various measures, including supplementary budgets. Japan will pledge all-out efforts to get its economy back on a recovery track, despite forecasts saying it may slow down temporarily.

Some nations are expected to express concerns over a possible delay in Japan's fiscal restructuring. Japan will likely highlight the importance of reconstructing itself, while keeping its fiscal condition in order.

Finance ministers and central bank governors of the Group of 7 industrialized nations will have a separate meeting before the G20 meeting.
Attention is focused on whether Japan can show the international community a persuasive roadmap to its reconstruction and to end their worries.
Monday, April 11, 2011 06:48 +0900 (JST)
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