Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 04 Apr 2011 11:36

Multatuli wrote:Abhishek Nayak, was it one of these presenters? :

Sharanjit Leyl :
or
Rico Hizon :

If so then it's indeed the BBC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Today

no i am talking about a field reporter, she looked and talked like teesta sheetalwad.She was also presenting wrong facts like DHD(dimasa ex-terror group) were fighting indian state where as this group had already surrendered.

muktesh · Post by **muktesh** » 05 Apr 2011 02:05

helllo everyone!!!finally i'm a part of br.feels so good!!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Apr 2011 08:58

The following video of Rafales formating for refueling shows that they cruise in that mode with canards in an attitude that would push the nose down.

Why?

http://dai.ly/ehPT6w

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 05 Apr 2011 12:29

shiv wrote:The following video of Rafales formating for refueling shows that they cruise in that mode with canards in an attitude that would push the nose down.

Why?

http://dai.ly/ehPT6w

Modern aircrafts like Rafale are generally made pitch unstable. This is done by ensuring that the center of gravity is behind the center of lift. This creates a constant pitch up motion. In case of Rafale the canards are producing a continuous push the nose down force to counter this. In case of aircrafts with horizontal tails, this tail can be used for generating the necessary push the tail up force. This can be done in two ways, rotate the tails to produce the necessary force, or design the tails to produce net lift in normal flying condition.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Apr 2011 07:01

bmallick wrote: Modern aircrafts like Rafale are generally made pitch unstable. This is done by ensuring that the center of gravity is behind the center of lift. This creates a constant pitch up motion. In case of Rafale the canards are producing a continuous push the nose down force to counter this. In case of aircrafts with horizontal tails, this tail can be used for generating the necessary push the tail up force. This can be done in two ways, rotate the tails to produce the necessary force, or design the tails to produce net lift in normal flying condition.

You may well be right Mallickji-my error corrected at bottom

Mallickji. I know all that. But I don't think that is the answer. I doubt if the Rafale needs to maintain such a large angle of canard deflection for normal flight. You do not find other unstable FBW aircraft using such huge drag causing deflections for stability. I do not recall seeing such a large deflection of the canards in other videos and photos of the Rafale in normal level flight although I am willing to be corrected in this regard.

That is huge canard deflection and I was wondering if this was a maneuver deliberately intended to formate with the tank from which the videos have been taken.

In retrospect every single photo of Rafale in level flight shows this deflection. That is a huge deflection and IMO is a draggy thing being used for the purpose of pitch instability if Mallick is correct.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 06 Apr 2011 10:08

Shiv sir, please drop the "ji" suffix. I need to grow for quite a few more years, literally as well as figuratively, to reach your level.

I have gone through quite a few photos of Gripen, J-10 as well as Eurofighter. Gripen & J-10 show distinct deflection of the canard to generate down force. In case of Eurofighter, it is very difficult to say for sure. Intuitively of course there needs to be a force to push the nose down, in order to counter the pitch up moment created due to the aft being heavy. How does eurofighter creates it is a bit of mystery for me as of now. Maybe the canard in level flight creates downward lift. Or maybe there is deflection of the canard, but the canard being further ahead, as opposed to the close-coupled fighters, the deflection needed is less pronounced. Also in case of Gripen, Rafale & J10, the entire canard section doesn't move, rather just about 2-3% of the canard section near the fuselage keeps level and the rest deflect. Hence that section sort of acts as a guide against which we can easily mark the deflection of canard. I dont know whether I have explained this bit well. It might seem that I am muddled, but please refer some photos for understanding what I mean. Such a marker is not present in Eurofighter, hence its more difficult to gauge any deflection.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 06 Apr 2011 10:58

Guru's I have two questions:
1. This is with reference to the drop tank jettisoning discussion on LCA forum. I presume no stores are dropped during maneuvering. All such drops are done during level flight. Am I wrong?

2. This is with regards to IFF. Lets say a fighter A sees another fighter B on its radar. Then A sends a IFF signal to B. Now if B is friend, it responds. Of course all this is done automatically. My question is, if B is not a friend, then is it possible for B to use this signal from A to detect A's presence, without ever going active with its own radar.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Apr 2011 00:50

There was a comment about jet fuel and India.

Hindu reports

Jatropha holds potential as jet fuel

There is a significant potential for sustainable aviation fuel based on jatropha-curcas, an oil-producing non-edible plant, says a study released by Boeing.

The study, led by Yale University’s School of Environmental Studies, has shown that if cultivated properly, jatropha can deliver strong environmental and socio-economic benefits in Latin America and reduce greenhouse gas emmissions up to 60 percent as compared to petroleum-based jet fuel.

“Research study like this is vital to helping developers to deliver better social, environmental, and economic sustainability outcomes from jatropha cultivation,” says Rob Bailis, assistant professor at the Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies.

The study, conducted from 2008-2010 and funded by Boeing, used sustainability criteria developed by the Roundtable on Sustainable Biofuels to assess actual farming conditions in Latin America.

Unlike previous studies, which used theoretical inputs, the researchers’ team conducted extensive interviews with jatropha farmers and used field measurements to develop the first comprehensive sustainability analysis of actual projects.

A key study finding identifies prior land-use as the most important factor driving greenhouse gas benefits of a jatropha jet fuel. It highlights that developers should pay particular attention to prior land use when deciding where to locate jatropha projects.

A second important finding is that early jatropha projects suffered from a lack of developed seed strains, which led to poor crop yields.

“The invaluable insights provided by this study will help our airline customers to better understand the sustainability of this potential jet fuel source,” said Boeing Commercial Airplanes director of environmental strategy Michael Hurd.

Cultivated in tropical and subtropical regions around the world, jatropha-curcas, is a poisonous, semi-evergreen shrub or small tree. It reaches a height of 6 metres (20 ft) and is resistant to a high degree of aridity, allowing it to be grown in deserts.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Apr 2011 01:54

I asked this question before...but still confused...

I read that Su-30MKI can have multiple ejector racks. Then why cant it carry more A2A missiles? why the A2A missile payload is limited to 2-3 tons where as it's capacity is 8 tons?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Apr 2011 02:25

same reason you don't load the boot and backseats of your car with diesel containers, even though you can. because you don't need it.

Raghunath · Post by **Raghunath** » 09 Apr 2011 10:48

Hello all, This is my first post on BRF. Have been lurking for about 2 years.

Anyway, I was recently watching a video on the MAKS 2005 and this thing I saw puzzled me. Two Su-30s were landing with a Su-47 between them. When they deployed their braking parachutes, they did not wait till their nose wheel touched the ground. This meant that the parachute scraped the ground for about a second after deployment. What is the reason for this? Doesn't this damage the parachute skin? I tried Wiki but it didn't give me much.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 11 Apr 2011 09:42

Gurus, what happens if an aam is used against a ground target? Is the background clutter from the ground side so much that an aam simply cannot get good Signal to Noise ratio against the ground based target no matter what? Could simplify logistics and preparedness if there was a "multi-role" aam.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 12 Apr 2011 09:35

Rahul M wrote:same reason you don't load the boot and backseats of your car with diesel containers, even though you can. because you don't need it.

Rama saar on top of what the Bongali Breaperi already mentioned there are a few things to consider:

1) AAMs are a lot lighter than heavier AG munitions hence all up the AA load would hardly every exceed 4 tons max (probably would be less) for a MKI unless you are carrying one of em Awacs killer K172s (although gien that we have not heard anything abou the K100/K172 nobody knows)

2). Also to consider with the multiple racks is the volume that would be occupied with multiple aam rounds side by side on different pylons which may lead to issues with separation as there may not be a minimum safe distance.

3). All up the MKI can already carry at least 12 AAMs of various combinations (variants of R27s, R77s, and R73s). 12 missiles is a huge AAM load by any count I think max this could be increased to 14 if we can fit a multiple rack under each wing. More than one multiple rack under each will not be possible IMHO.

Given that the MKI can carry such a significant warload of AAMs I dont think there will be any need for multiple ejector racks instead it'd be better getting the AESA radar, upgrading the ECM, EW gear further and a more comprehensive AG load.....just me 2 paisa...

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Apr 2011 15:25

Newbie pooch

1. Does an IA division have the same set of brigades always under it? I realize that battalions under the brigade always changes, but do the brigades also change?
2. If brigades don't change, is there a way to find out which brigades are under a particular division - open source only!
3. Same questions for a Corps with respect to Divisions.

Thanks

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Apr 2011 20:02

Arya Sumantra wrote:Gurus, what happens if an aam is used against a ground target? Is the background clutter from the ground side so much that an aam simply cannot get good Signal to Noise ratio against the ground based target no matter what? Could simplify logistics and preparedness if there was a "multi-role" aam.

AAMs are fast and agile and carry a light warhead designed to knock off an aircraft - so the amount of explosive is much much smaller than that needed to take out a tank or a bunker. The agility and speed requirements again are unnecessary against static or relatively slow moving ground targets. An AAM warhead is often a fragmentation type warhead with a proximity fuse that explodes nearby as opposed to the sort of warhead needed to take out a fortification or armor (armor piercing or tandem warhead) perhaps with a delayed fuse that causes an explosion late - after layers of protection have been penetrated.

A dumb bomb with guidance will do for a ground target - but not against an aircraft and that makes AAMs more expensive weight for weight (I am guessing here)

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 13 Apr 2011 08:40

Thanks, Shivji. The warhead type proximity vs tandem is a problem. I was using a combination of two frequently used logic -

1. Higher the precision, lesser the explosive needed.
2. If wounding an enemy soldier or damaging enemy equipment is enough, don’t kill it.

A bunker was anyways out of question but a truck carrying troops or a jeep or a ground mobile radar unit and other non armoured fauj vehicles/targets can be severely damaged enough to render it unusable until repaired back in its workshop. The railway tracks or the troops ferrying train itself on Tib. plateau could be targeted as well. Even the improvised pick-up like ones used by rebels/insurgents could be damaged by aam. The russkie principle of firing 2 aams can also be used if one is not enough.

Of course a dumb bum with guidance is cheaper but it is heavy and may not always be lugged around for an impromptu use against a target identified while in the front. Also we seem to have moved on beyond it and our AF is now looking for CMs fired from under the wings.

A modification in Awacs killer could be sought wherein the propellant is reduced and explosive increased for use against ground targets

Just trying to make the most of what we already have rather than wait for what we will get in future.

JMT

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Apr 2011 09:16

Arya Sumantra wrote:T The railway tracks or the troops ferrying train itself on Tib. plateau could be targeted as well

JMT

Bridges across gorges would be the key IMO. Paveway/Sudarshan/KAB-500

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 13 Apr 2011 09:45

With the many countermeasures and lower rcs fighters the precision of an aam would be lower. So for lower precision a higher amount of xplosive should be used for AA purpose so that even if fighter tries to escape it would be impacted. For AG purposes the higher precision would require lower amount of xplosive. Thus one could perhaps see a convergence of explosive warhead needed for AA and AG eventually leading to a single multi-purpose missile. Heavier armour and bunkers would continue to need dedicated AG payload

JMT

Bodhi_kol · Post by **Bodhi_kol** » 13 Apr 2011 15:38

Hello All,

I have been a lurker for a long time now.

However i came across this post, which i dont know wether it has already been posted or not!!!

http://www.subcontinentaldef.net/2011/0 ... ndias.html

can anybody give me some idea about it? what is this??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Apr 2011 20:30

Raja Bose wrote: I am not even going into the morality of the thing in context of what is being done by this joker - what he is doing is not only legally but also morally repugnant since the para tab and Balidan badge are not some trademarks one can start wearing after paying Rs.100 to the babu in the GoI Patent and Trademark office.

You miss the point saar. If I like the badge and get a tailor/embroiderer to make a copy and wear it what are you going to do about it apart from complaining?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 Apr 2011 20:39

^^saar, That is like saying in my mohalla the police is in my pocket and I will commit crimes openly so what are you gonna do about it? Does that magically make my act legal or acceptable? I hope you get the point.

In the same vein, I like the look of the Vir Chakra. Should I ask a metal worker to make me one and should I wear it openly and drop hints? Would that be fine and acceptable? If so, then we just have different views on the same topic, lets leave it at that.

In case you are wondering, what the fella is doing is illegal under Indian law - the fact that he is not prosecuted by GoI is another matter but then so are many of our corrupt-pati netas. However, claiming this is India onlee, we do jugaad onlee, sab kuch chalta hai onlee, hardly makes it acceptable.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 13 Apr 2011 20:43

Piskologically speaking, the civil society could use replication of insignia/badges for 1. Intention to make mockery of Armed Forces, way of life/culture of Armed Forces OR 2. Intention to celebrate the Armed Forces, way of life/culture and achievements of the Armed Forces.

Public opinion has a duty to make (2) happen in the larger interests of the Indian state and psyche. I feel that in support of this public opinion, Indian Paramilitary and Special Forces should get a written statement/explanation from this person as soon as possible.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Apr 2011 20:46

Raja Bose wrote:^^saar, That is like saying in my mohalla the police is in my pocket and I will commit crimes openly so what are you gonna do about it? Does that magically make my act legal or acceptable? I hope you get the point.

Sir, it may be "like" saying something else. But still, that is not what i said. Golf ball may look like an egg to a crow, but it is not an an egg. I will try and make my question easier to understand. Please don't mistake me

1) Please produce a photo of his wearing the balidaan badge
2) I will personally write to or email the paras and ask if it is legal or not and what action they are going to take about it.

There is absolutely no need to talk about mohalla police, government babu, GoI or America for that matter. What the man himself is doing is action. What we are doing is ranting. Why not emulate him?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Apr 2011 21:14

Raja Bose,
Are you sure that what he is doing is "illegal"?
Like in the picture that I had posted in Pictures thread in which he is wearing IA's insignia sans Indian emblem on his cap. So, technically, is he doing any thing illegal?

Morality is a different issue, but Indian Army will not act till he is not doing anything illegal.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Apr 2011 21:20

I looked at the photos again carefully. I am now getting the feeling that a the badges may have been photoshopped onto the T shirt. Not sure. But also not bothered enough.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Apr 2011 21:38

the fellow's use of insignia hints as if he is ex military. and AFAIK that is a marginal case of impersonating a military officer.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 Apr 2011 23:48

shiv wrote: What the man himself is doing is action. What we are doing is ranting. Why not emulate him?

Sir, what he is doing is fraudulent self-promotion. Do you consider that action worthy of emulation? I don't.

BTW you didn't respond to my question as to whether you are OK with me wearing a Vir Chakra on my person in public (say something which looks exactly like the real one except minor difference of 0.1g in weight and a small scratch at the back) even though I haven't earned it? Because that is exactly (and not "something like") what this joker is doing.

Gaur, intent to commit fraud (in this case for commercial gain) is considered equally illegal as fraud - there is no distinction. In this case it is the former at the very least, if not the latter. The IPC considers impersonation of a Govt. officer or office as fraud and even a jawan (leave alone a civilian) in currently in the dock for impersonating a Lt. Gen.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2011 07:08

Arya Sumantra wrote:Gurus, what happens if an aam is used against a ground target? Is the background clutter from the ground side so much that an aam simply cannot get good Signal to Noise ratio against the ground based target no matter what? Could simplify logistics and preparedness if there was a "multi-role" aam.

One of the multi-roles for Trishul in addition to Ground to air and ship to air was a air to ground anti-radar role. It never got to that as it got killed in its earlier roles.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2011 08:11

Raja Bose wrote:
shiv wrote: What the man himself is doing is action. What we are doing is ranting. Why not emulate him?
Sir, what he is doing is fraudulent self-promotion. Do you consider that action worthy of emulation? I don't.

BTW you didn't respond to my question as to whether you are OK with me wearing a Vir Chakra on my person in public (say something which looks exactly like the real one except minor difference of 0.1g in weight and a small scratch at the back) even though I haven't earned it? Because that is exactly (and not "something like") what this joker is doing.

Yes I am OK with your wearing a Vir Chakra in public as long as you don't do anything more than wearing an imitation. Simply because wearing an imitation Vir Chakra is more of your problem than anyone else's. If you forge the identity of the Vir Chakra awardee and try and benefit fraudulently from that then there is criminal intent.

Merely seeing you wearing it would not be proof of criminal intent. You can robustly defend yourself and have a lot of nifty and believable excuses to say why you were wearing a medal that is not yours in public. At the end of it all - I may laugh and mock you but I would have no way of being critical of you and your line of work unless I could show criminal intent. You could perhaps sue me in turn for defamation and character assasination if I went too far.

This is the problem with Shri Deepak Dubey. He can (or any good lawyer can) make a good case for him - for example saying that he wears an imitation logo to demonstrate to his students the levels of training and toughness achieved by the forces whose badge he is wearing as motivation to trainees, and there there is no criminal intent to defraud or profit from the logo. While this could still be an offence the punishment would be mild - and probably restricted to a warning stopping him from using the logo and perhaps a fine rather than imprisonment especially if there were mitigating circumstances showing that his actions have been positive and beneficial, if misguided.

But before all that someone has to make a complaint against him. No complaint no action. The primary action required is to make a complaint if anyone feels strongly about it. Now who is going to do that? I have changed my mind and have decided that I am not going to make a complaint. Someone please do that, because if you don't think its funny it was never humor.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 14 Apr 2011 09:04

^^^Saar, now based on what you just said above, how does it translate to something on the lines of "this guy is really doing something useful and we need more like him"? After all the debate started from that specific point that you had made.

Now in the Vir Chakra hypothetical situation, if I falsely claim the medal I am wearing is real and I won it in a classified raid and use my fake status as a Vir Chakra awardee to attract customers for my kamandu school - would that be acceptable? AFAIK this is fraud since I am enticing people to give me money based on fake qualifications.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2011 09:23

Two separate questions. I will answer them separately

Raja Bose wrote:^^^Saar, now based on what you just said above, how does it translate to something on the lines of "this guy is really doing something useful and we need more like him"? After all the debate started from that specific point that you had made.

After the bombing of an Air India plane off the Irish coast by Khalistani terrorists - it was reported that some of these guys had been trained in quasi military commando training schools in the US where retired military personnel, some ex SF and others were allowed to run such schools for civilians. These schools gave countries like the USA a deniable method of imparting military training to foreigners who could be put to interesting use in foreign lands. I recall feeling very strongly at that time that this is a model worth emulating. I support the setting up of civilian boot camps by people who have the skills to do that.

Raja Bose wrote:Now in the Vir Chakra hypothetical situation, if I falsely claim the medal I am wearing is real and I won it in a classified raid and use my fake status as a Vir Chakra awardee to attract customers for my kamandu school - would that be acceptable? AFAIK this is fraud since I am enticing people to give me money based on fake qualifications.

You miss my point. Even a murder may be "acceptable" if nobody learns about it and no one finds the body and no one misses the dead person or makes a missing person complaint. It is not even murder because no one knows about it.

No matter what you do with your medal, your actions become a problem only if someone complains. Are you going to complain about Shri Deepak Dubey or not? I can see your point, but someone has to make a complaint. Are you going to be the one to do that. As long as no complaint is made what he does with any logo or badge could be legal or illegal but it's not going to make any difference outside a discussion about morality and ethics.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 14 Apr 2011 10:37

shiv wrote:<snip>

Are you going to complain about Shri Deepak Dubey or not? .

Sent couple of mails to the official ids available on the IA & IN websites.

shiv wrote:<snip>

These schools gave countries like the USA a deniable method of imparting military training to foreigners who could be put to interesting use in foreign lands .

Also Saar, a humble submission that potential deniablity is compromised and not enhanced by using insignia similar to the official ones.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 14 Apr 2011 11:40

Have mailed to email ids listed on IA, IN and parachute regiment websites. Even so, I have serious doubts if any action would be taken in this matter. But lets see.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 14 Apr 2011 13:09

ramana wrote:
Arya Sumantra wrote:Gurus, what happens if an aam is used against a ground target? Is the background clutter from the ground side so much that an aam simply cannot get good Signal to Noise ratio against the ground based target no matter what? Could simplify logistics and preparedness if there was a "multi-role" aam.

One of the multi-roles for Trishul in addition to Ground to air and ship to air was a air to ground anti-radar role. It never got to that as it got killed in its earlier roles.

Hopefully a modification of Astra with some helina features emerges to compensate

A quote on AA use of hellfire meant for A2G use, from wikipedia

The only known operational air-to-air kill with a Hellfire took place on May 24, 2001. A civilian Cessna 152 aircraft entered Israeli airspace from Lebanon, with unknown intentions and refusing to answer or comply with ATC repeated warnings to turn back. Fearing a terrorist attack, an Israeli Air Force AH-64A helicopter fired upon the Cessna, resulting in its complete disintegration,[5] and the death of Estephan Nicolian, a student pilot.[6]

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 14 Apr 2011 13:17

shiv wrote: You miss my point. Even a murder may be "acceptable" if nobody learns about it and no one finds the body and no one misses the dead person or makes a missing person complaint. It is not even murder because no one knows about it.

Then we are talking about completely different semantics. Lets leave it at that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2011 13:56

anirban_aim wrote: Also Saar, a humble submission that potential deniablity is compromised and not enhanced by using insignia similar to the official ones.

The only way any such a school can get credibility is to have someone with known credentials with the military. Those Amriki schools were run by "retired Marines" or other ex-military types. In theory I could start a school for wheezers and say I am an ex para. but a few photographs or a certificate of my having been a para would aid my credibility greatly. If a retired Spl Forces person legally displays his own past - it is still deniable by a government as a private venture for which the government cannot be held responsible. For the same reason it remains deniable even if he illegally displays insignias that he should not use - because the government if necessary could pretend to take action against him and appear very sincere. Give him token "punishment" and let him continue under a different name if necessary.

But for all that you need schools and I see this as a career opportunity for retired SF people in India.

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 14 Apr 2011 16:19

^^^^ @ Shiv, Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that saar. Hope this is fine.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 15 Apr 2011 01:09

I have a question regarding Akash and other SAMs.

When they calculate the kill probability of a particular missile, do they consider a maneuvering target or a simply a straight flying target?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 15 Apr 2011 01:42

sourab_c wrote:I have a question regarding Akash and other SAMs.

When they calculate the kill probability of a particular missile, do they consider a maneuvering target or a simply a straight flying target?

I am not sure about the kill probability but the claimed range is for targets that are flying straight at you and at optimum high altitude.
So, my "guess" would be that the conditions remain the same for kill probability.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 19 Apr 2011 23:29

Arya Sumantra wrote:Gurus, what happens if an aam is used against a ground target? Is the background clutter from the ground side so much that an aam simply cannot get good Signal to Noise ratio against the ground based target no matter what? Could simplify logistics and preparedness if there was a "multi-role" aam.

A bit dated article.

Raytheon has adapted the heat-seeking AIM-9X to strike moving targets on the ground or in the water, adding another new capability for the formerly air-to-air-only missile.

The modification allows the same AIM-9X to strike both air and ground targets. Jeff White, Raytheon's business development manager for AIM-9X, declines to describe the modification in detail, but says it involves only software changes. The AIM-9X infrared seeker, proximity fuse and blast/fragmentation warhead remain unchanged.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ssion.html

Cheers....