India Nuclear News And Discussion

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Amber G.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Now if someone inhales a ‘hot particle’ of plutonium, I believe the only treatment is removal of the lung. ..
FWIW , was just curious to see what is wiki's opinion regarding "hot Particle" theory:
The "hot particle" theory in which a particle of plutonium dust radiates a localized spot of lung tissue has been tested and found false – such particles are more mobile than originally thought and toxicity is not measurably increased due to particulate form
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium
Link given in wiki :http://russp.org/BLC-3.html
From above:
....
...Yet the false statements continue in the news media and surely 95% of the public accept them as fact although virtually no one in the radiation health scientific community gives them credence. We have here a complete breakdown in communication between the scientific community and the news media, and an unprecedented display of irresponsibility by the latter. One must also question the ethics of Nader and Ribicoff; I have sent them my papers and written them personal letters, but I have never received a reply.
....
....
It is often argued that there is a great deal we do not know about Pu toxicity. While this may be true, one would be hard-pressed to name another public health issue that is as well understood and controlled. Surely it would not be air pollution from burning coal, which is a million times more serious a problem. Surely it is not food additives or insecticides or such [the dangers from these have also been greatly exaggerated] that may well be doing real harm to our health. Pu hazards are far better understood than any of these, and the one fatality per 300 years they may someday cause is truly trivial by comparison.

In spite of the facts we have cited here, facts well known in the scientific community, the myth of Pu toxicity lingers on. The news media ignore us, and prefer to continue scaring the public at every opportunity. They don't recognize the difference between political issues on which everyone is equally entitled to an opinion, and scientific issues, which are susceptible to scientific investigation and proof. The myth may linger forever.
(Please do read the above in full and also check out the author)
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote:
-- the energy output can easily be raised by 10% merely by fixing easy to fix low hanging fruits.


So yes, it has everything to do with ALL forms of energy.
Saar if it is all guess work like 'increased to 10% merely by fixing low hanging fruits', why not stick to your core competencies instead of trying your hand at..er..maths? :)
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

arnab wrote:core competencies
:?:
Amber G.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Sorry if posted earlier.. A dated article but still valid for India... A must read. By Prof Cohen:
Some Amazing Facts about Nuclear Power
August 2002 -- The American public has been led to believe that nuclear power is extremely dangerous and that nuclear waste disposal is an unsolved problem. Those beliefs are based on preposterous distortions perpetrated by irrational environmentalists and an irresponsible mass media. In reality, a reactor meltdown would have to occur every two weeks to make nuclear power as deadly as the routine emissions from coal-fired power, from which we get about half of our electric power in the United States. (Note: some newer nuclear power plant designs cannot possibly meltdown.) And if the United States went completely nuclear for all its electric power for 10,000 years, the amount of land needed for waste disposal would be about what is needed for the coal ash that is currently generated every two weeks.

Anti-nuclear activists like to scare us with horror stories about the "thousands of tons of nuclear waste" that have been produced since nuclear power began some four decades ago. That sounds like a lot -- until you put it into perspective, which anti-nuclear activists and the mass media never do. Consider that one pound of plutonium can produce as much energy as the Yankee Stadium full of coal. And coal-fired power generates something like 100 million tons of waste annually in the United States, or about three tons of ash per second. Every few hours, more coal ash is generated than high-level nuclear waste has been generated in four decades!

Oh, but nuclear waste is far more dangerous than coal waste, isn't it? Actually, it isn't. For a given amount of energy produced, coal ash is actually more radioactive than nuclear waste. How can that be? Simple. The quantity of coal ash is literally millions of times greater than the corresponding quantity of nuclear waste, so even though the radioactive intensity of the coal ash is much less, the overall amount of radiation and radioactive matter is greater.

But nobody worries much about the radioactivity of coal ash because the chemicals in it are far more dangerous. They include several thousand tons per year of mercury and other heavy metals, along with huge amounts of lead, arsenic, and asbestos, for example. Yet even the huge quantities of chemical waste in coal ash are of little concern compared to the gaseous emissions from burning coal, which kill an estimated 10,000 to 50,000 Americans every year, depending on which study you believe. As a point of reference, even the lower estimate approaches the rate at which Americans died in the Viet Nam war, and the higher estimate greatly exceeds it, yet the media rarely report on those deaths.

So let's get this straight. For a given amount of energy produced, coal waste has more radioactive matter than nuclear waste, yet the radioactivity of coal waste is nowhere near as dangerous as the solid chemical waste, which in turn is nowhere near as dangerous as the gaseous emissions. Are you starting to get the picture yet?

But even those staggering figures fail to capture the major environmental advantages of nuclear power over coal-fired power. Why? Because the solid and gaseous emissions from coal burning are generated in such a huge quantity that they cannot possibly be contained. They can only be spewed into the atmosphere and dumped into shallow landfills. There is no conceivable way to isolate waste that is generated at the rate of three tons per second. Nuclear waste, on the other hand, is so miniscule in comparison that it can be almost completely isolated from the environment at a very modest cost. And even though that cost has been greatly inflated by the anti-nuclear hysteria, it is still very managable.

If all the high-level nuclear waste that has ever been generated were simply dumped into the middle of the ocean, it would be many thousands of times less harmful than the coal waste generated over the same period. But the nuclear waste is so miniscule in quantity that it can be isolated almost completely from the environment. In fact, that is exactly what is being done all over the world. Basic technology exists to convert nuclear waste into a solid, water-impermeable glass form, encase it into stainless-steel-lined concrete containers, and put it thousands of feet underground where water hasn't flowed for hundreds of thousands of years. And nuclear power produces no gaseous emissions, of course.

Yet, amazingly, a large percentage of the American public has been hoodwinked into believing that nuclear waste disposal is an "unsolved" problem. In order to perpetuate the absurd mythology of nuclear waste, anti-nuclear extremists have concocted the absurd idea of a "nuclear priesthood" to warn people of the dangers of buried nuclear waste thousands of years in the future. Never mind that coal waste contains more overall radioactivity and is not contained at all. The idea of a "nuclear priesthood" is based on another absurd anti-nuclear distortion: the idea that nuclear waste is "dangerous for hundreds of thousands of years."

Oh yes, nuclear waste would indeed be "dangerous for hundreds of thousands of years" if we were stupid enough to leave it lying around untreated, but did someone forget to mention that coal ash is dangerous forever? That's right: solid chemical waste never decays. It will be as dangerous in ten million years as it was the day it was generated. And there is so much of it that we have no choice but to leave it lying around untreated. So do we need a "coal-ash priesthood"? Only if we've lost our sanity and common sense. Note, incidentally, that uranium comes from the ground in the first place, where it is neither encased in stainless-steel-lined concrete containers nor isolated from groundwater.

The whole notion that nuclear waste is "dangerous for hundreds of thousands of years" is fundamentally misleading. Nuclear waste contains a combination of many radioactive materials with a wide range of halflives, ranging from a fraction of a second to millions of years. The short-lived materials radiate very intensely but for a short period of time (they are safely dissipated at the power plant long before they are ever put into long-term storage). The long-lived materials such as uranium and plutonium, on the other hand, radiate for a very long time but at an extremely low level -- so low that their danger is essentially chemical. The materials with intermediate halflives on the order of a few decades are the most problematic, but even they are easily managable.

Coal-fired power is many thousands of times more dangerous and harmful to the environment than nuclear power. Does that mean coal-fired power should be stopped? Absolutely not. Even coal-fired power is far better than no power at all. Without economical electric power, we will rapidly degenerate into a third-world nation, and average lifespans will drop precipitously. Even though emissions from coal-fired power costs many lives, the net effect of coal-fired power is to extend average lifespans. The point is not that coal-fired power is bad, but rather that nuclear power is thousands of times cleaner and safer. And the fact that so many so-called "environmentalists" vociferously oppose nuclear power -- even while they agitate for draconian measures to stop "global warming" -- should tell you something about them: they are either ignorant or they have ulterior ideological motives -- or both.
Check out the author: (From the blog, but one can easily check out the credentials and calculations)

Bernard L. Cohen is Professor-Emeritus of Physics and Astronomy and of Environmental and Occupational Health at University of Pittsburgh. He has authored 6 books, over 300 papers in scientific journals, and about 75 articles in non-technical journals. He has presented invited lectures in 47 U.S. States, 6 Canadian provinces, 7 Japanese prefectures, 6 Australian states and territories, and 24 other countries in Europe, Asia and South America. His awards include the American Physical Society Bonner Prize and the Health Physics Society Distinguished Scientific Achievement Award. He has been elected Chairman of the Division of Nuclear Physics of the American Physical Society, and Chairman of the Division of Environmental Sciences of the American Nuclear Society.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

Japan N-fumes reach Jaitapur
Scared villagers in plant protest
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110412/j ... 843538.jsp
Distance, though, hasn’t held back leaders seeking to tap into the resentment. On Saturday, Uddhav Thackeray held a rally in nearby Mithgavane. “This area needs development projects but not at the price of human lives or the loss of livelihood of the farmers and fishermen,” the Sena executive president told a crowd of 20,000.

The speech was peppered with references to Japan’s nuclear crisis, hardly surprising in an area where Fukushima, the stricken nuclear reactor, is a buzzword. “We saw what happened in Japan. One such incident and the whole Konkan coast (of which Jaitapur and Ratnagiri district are a part) will get destroyed. If the locals oppose the project, we won’t allow the government to continue with it,” Thackeray said.
I wonder if Sanku ji is an adviser to this gentleman :)
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

GuruPrabhu wrote:
Sanku wrote: Let me remind you what the original context was.

NTPC wastes 6% of its energy produced due to simple grid issues (not transmission losses, theft or other such things) pure waste at plant because energy can not be put on the right grid.

In this context, plugging for Nuclear energy is very difficult to consider anything else as vested interest.
I remember the context all too well and also recognize your propensity to stick in the vested interest commentary. My insertion of Babu-giri was to level the playing field of vested interests.

The loss of energy by NTPC has nothing to do with need for nuclear energy, except in clouded minds that only see vested interest.
GP,

Very classic trolling technique only. Am surprised you fell for it. :)

NTPC produces a significant amount of electricity but not all of India's electricity. So taking NTPC as a benchmark for India's entire energy needs is stupid. However, let's ignore that for the time being.

Now if we take 6 per cent loss due to "grid issues" of NTPC at face value (and not pulled out of some musharaff) what does that mean?

That means if NTPC produces, say, 100 MW of electricity then 6MW gets wasted, right? Now suppose that these grid issues get solved. Note the solving is a one-time thing, which means if it gets solved it stays solved that is it doesn't happen again next year because the solution involves building more efficiencies both in management and equipment, among others.

So say after solving its issue it again produces 100 MW next year, its losses are zero. The funny thing is even if NTPC increases it's generation capacity to 10,000 MW, the loss due to "grid issues" still remains zero.

Contrast that with why new generation capacity is installed. Mind you not just nuclear but all forms of energy? IMO there are two broad reasons (and several other smaller ones but lets keep them aside).

1) Catch up with the energy deficit.
2) Meet future energy needs that will only growing.

Now if anyone says that we don't need nuclear or any other new generation because, hey presto, we just have to fix "grid issues" of NTPC and we become energy self-sufficient, then what do you say?

The level of ignorance/stupidity on display is amazing.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^Sorry, maybe I missed something..But what is it about NTPC's generating units that it loses 6% of the power just to hook up with the grid (esecially clarfieid as "not T&D losses", but just to hook up to the grid)....
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

amit wrote: Very classic trolling technique only. Am surprised you fell for it. :)
Yes, my bad for feeding the troll. But then there is the following aspect also:
The level of ignorance/stupidity on display is amazing.
It traps you into responding to clearly trolling posts.
---------

somnath,

It could be due to problems with phase synchronization.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

somnath wrote:^^Sorry, maybe I missed something..But what is it about NTPC's generating units that it loses 6% of the power just to hook up with the grid (esecially clarfieid as "not T&D losses", but just to hook up to the grid)....
What to do the hooks are made in China (or maybe it should be Japan?).

:rotfl:
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

GP I understand. I've fallen into that trap before. :-)
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

GuruPrabhu wrote:somnath,

It could be due to problems with phase synchronization
GP-ji, is this "grid synchronisation that you are referring to? But isnt that a one-time exercise? There are algorithm to deal with that..Never heard of a recurring 6% loss on account of that..

BTW, from what I know, grid sync for solar and wind are more challenging...
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

GP, Amit, Somnath et al

It is indeed sad that the whole thread gets derailed by actions of a one (or 1.5) troll(s), who will throw insults on other brf members, Indian Scientists, GOI officials, etc, just because they feel like it. Mods allow it or selectively rebuke a few. I have reported a few posts as BRF guide-lines tells me to, but looks like "report" function does not work. I have yet to find even an acknowledgement from the mods.

More often than not, I liked lurking. Recently I have been more active, in the hope to make some positive contribution as I have enjoyed informative posts from many. But honestly the environment becomes hostile. No wonder, some excellent contributers here have left.

I do hope sanity prevails and the thread remains enjoyable and informative.

I do want to thank you for many posts.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

somnath wrote: GP-ji, is this "grid synchronisation that you are referring to? But isnt that a one-time exercise? There are algorithm to deal with that..Never heard of a recurring 6% loss on account of that..
yes, it is grid synchronization which basically ensures that the 3 phases of the generating turbine are synched with the grid. As you say, there is the original one-time synch at the time of start-up (which is now automated). By the way, I have seen some old fashioned manual synch systems using 3 bulbs (when the in-phase bulb went off, the operator threw a large manual switch).

Anyway, the losses occur when there is a lot of drive power variability in the turbine. Since the phase is locked, more drive power is not allowed to convert into more rpms, hence the extra power goes into more torque. This raises the voltage, and one needs good and solid equipment to stabilize the voltage. If sufficient stabilization is not available, the operator allows the overdrive to change the rpms -- this in turn creates a change in phase and hence loss in delivered power.

As you know, India has a lot of voltage stability issues. stable voltage requires stable drive power, whether it is steam from coal, water from a dam or steam from nukes. I have no idea what sort of stabilization equipment NTPC uses.

Please take it for what it is worth. I am no expert and for all you know I am just making this up as I go along. :wink:
BTW, from what I know, grid sync for solar and wind are more challenging...
From what I know, the problem is different because wind and solar first rectify the power and then use asynchronous inverters.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

amit ji wrote: Hi Sanatanan ji,

. . .
I'm glad that you posted what you did as IMHO that's the kind of thing we should discuss.
Thank you.

I recognise that we hold different views, in good faith, on what is appropriate for India in its present state of technological development, and what should be done to move forward in the near as well as foreseeable future.

Never mind.

Let us continue to canvass for our points of view. In my earlier post, I had used the phrase "I vote for" with this in mind.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

I keep going back to the cost estimates for Indian nuclear power..And comparisons with other sources..

The Ramprasad Sengupta-YK Alagh study....

http://www.igcar.ernet.in/nuclear/alagh.htm

The numbers are way too skewed to NOT have nuclear power..
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

Amber G. wrote: Added later: A story from Washington post: (Worth reading to get some back ground)

Solar Energy Firms Leave Waste
thanks for link. China is uniquely positioned in SPV manufacturing.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

Amber G. wrote:GP, Amit, Somnath et al

It is indeed sad that the whole thread gets derailed by actions of a one (or 1.5) troll(s), who will throw insults on other brf members, Indian Scientists, GOI officials, etc, just because they feel like it. Mods allow it or selectively rebuke a few. I have reported a few posts as BRF guide-lines tells me to, but looks like "report" function does not work. I have yet to find even an acknowledgement from the mods.

More often than not, I liked lurking. Recently I have been more active, in the hope to make some positive contribution as I have enjoyed informative posts from many. But honestly the environment becomes hostile. No wonder, some excellent contributers here have left.

I do hope sanity prevails and the thread remains enjoyable and informative.

I do want to thank you for many posts.
Thanks Amber. I must say I've learnt a lot from your posts also, especially a lot of the science involved since physics is not my main subject. Please ignore the trolls and concentrate on what you do so well, that is educate those of us who are interested about the technical nitty gritty of this disaster.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

Sanatanan wrote:Thank you.

I recognise that we hold different views, in good faith, on what is appropriate for India in its present state of technological development, and what should be done to move forward in the near as well as foreseeable future.

Never mind.

Let us continue to canvass for our points of view. In my earlier post, I had used the phrase "I vote for" with this in mind.
Your welcome Sanatanan ji. Let's keep discussing this. I feel we may not be as far apart in our POVs as may be apparent. :-)
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

Apparently, UK is left over with tons of Mox fuel which no one wants now that Fukushima has melted down (the mox was for Japan) and most other reactors are not yet up after the quake.

Perhaps a good source for our PWHR going forward in future?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 66047.html

Government's doomed £6bn plan to dispose of nuclear waste

Ironically, it is the output of their civilian fast breeders, and the breeder plants could not run economically because of lack of demand.
The existing Sellafield Mox Plant, opened in 2002, has cost more than £1.3bn to date yet has produced just 13.8 tons of Mox fuel in nine years compared to an expected output of 120 tons per year. A leaked cable from the US embassy in London said Sellafield's Mox plant was a white elephant costing about £90m a year and considered, privately, by the UK Government as "[one of] the most embarrassing failures in British industrial history".
So eventually perhaps economics will dictate use of 3 cycle/PHWRs over LWRs after all.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

A large reason grids in India are unstable is the tendency of one state or operator to drop the grid frequency to make the electricity go further. IIRC correctly Maharashtra kept operating at 48.5 Hertz at one time. This causes brown outs and all sorts of chaos for every one else.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Gerard »

“This area needs development projects but not at the price of human lives or the loss of livelihood of the farmers and fishermen,”
A hungry belly is more tolerable by candlelight
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by joshvajohn »

Are Indian nuclear weapons facilities safe?
http://www.rediff.com/news/column/are-i ... 110412.htm

Japan crisis fuels India nuclear safety concerns
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 011_pg14_8
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:^^^^Addressing two topics raised above…

Asking what would be the relative impact of an exploding nuclear plant versus exploding PV arrays; overlooks the fact that one has the inherent potential to explode and the other certainly does not. In this
Ravi and Abhishek (and others)

Here is another data point if you want to find the cleanup cost for non-nuclear type accidents.. This is from
Coal Episode (though Solar PV's etc will have more toxic substances than coal, IMO, but you can figure it out in your calculation).

( London 1952): Pollution part - caused 3,500 fatalities all within a few days (when chemicals get into rain)

(For details you may like to check By Wilson et all Analyses of Health Effects Resulting from Population Exposure to Acid Precipitation," (Environmental Health Perspectives, 63 (1985))

Another path you may take:
Take UCS (considered by many as an anit-nuclear-group) data on their estimate for probability of meltdown and cost and then just compare it with your own estimates... Trust me, you will be amazed.

Added later: Check out this paper too: (Gives very good data for Cd types)
B.L. Cohen, "Risk Analysis of Buried Waste from Electricity Generation." American Journal of Physics, 54 (1986)
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

joshvajohn wrote:Are Indian nuclear weapons facilities safe?
http://www.rediff.com/news/column/are-i ... 110412.htm
Dr Gopalakrishnan is considered one of the "mavericks" in the establishment, but cant be dismissed easily...Of course, what he says blows the sails out of our born again greenpeace activists who have divine premonitions about the better safety of our PHWR/AHWR/FBR compared to snake-oil LWRs - but then barring divinity there was never any answer to that anyways..

On a serious note, what would be the regulatory oversight in the US for weapons facilities? Can the domestic civilian regulatorbe alowed access to weapons facilities? ACtually, I dont see why not..And I am surprised by Dr Gopalakrishnan's assertion that seems to suggest that AERB doesnt....
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

somnath wrote: Dr Gopalakrishnan is considered one of the "mavericks" in the establishment, but cant be dismissed easily...Of course, what he says blows the sails out of our born again greenpeace activists who have divine premonitions about the better safety of our PHWR/AHWR/FBR compared to snake-oil LWRs - but then barring divinity there was never any answer to that anyways..
Somnath,

Better safety was a non-starter.

However, there is another ironic aspect to this. Opponents of the nuke deal were crying hoarse about "INTRUSIVE INSPECTIONS" that will happen once the separation plan was enacted. Was this not just another word for "INDEPENDENT SURVEILLANCE" that is being demanded today by Gopalakrishnan and hailed by the cheerleaders of the anti-nuke lobby?

The irony is that the two groups have a large overlap in their membership. IMO, it points to a lack of depth in thinking.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

GuruPrabhu wrote:Was this not just another word for "INDEPENDENT SURVEILLANCE" that is being demanded today by Gopalakrishnan and hailed by the cheerleaders of the anti-nuke lobby
GP-ji, to be fair (to Dr Gopalkrishnan), he is perhaps only alluding to an "independent" regulator..I say that because he has been campaigning for an AERB independent of DAE for a long time now...

Which is why I wanted to know the regulatory regime adopted for US or UK for their weapons facilities...
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by ramdas »

The US instituted an independent regulatory body after building tens of thousands of nukes. When we still need to build up the nuclear arsenal, we simply cannot afford to have weaponization circumscribed by "safety concerns".

An independent regulatory authority will become a tool for NGO elements/Medha patkar types to stall nuclear weaponization on environmental concerns. This will lead us to nuke inferiority even vis a vis TSP.

A relentless nuke buildup at all costs is the need of the hour. We simply cannot afford to have a bunch of leftists scuttle the weapons program in this manner.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

ramdas wrote:A relentless nuke buildup at all costs is the need of the hour. We simply cannot afford to have a bunch of leftists scuttle the weapons program in this manner
Ramdas-ji,

Not sure how this conclusion comes about...The regulator's job is to audit and ensure safety standards are adhered to in the reactor, the attendant facilities etc..He is not deciding nuke policy - # of weapons, pace at which they will be built..the regulators themsleves are likley to be people from the "establishment" - Dr. Gopalkrishnan himself spent many years in the DAE/BARC before going to AERB...

I am actually a bit surprised by his claims that AERB does not have "oversight" of weapons facilities anymore..
But, on April 25, 2000, the then secretary, DAE had ordered that the regulatory and safety surveillance functions at BARC and its facilities, which were exercised till then by the AERB, will thereafter be carried out through an 'Internal Safety Committee Structure' to be constituted by the director of Bhabha Atomic Research Centre
AERB, to be sure, right now is a unit under DAE...Reactors are the same basically, whether producing bombs or power - no reason why safety scan of weapons reactors can be any lower than that of civvie reactors...
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

In Page 81, ramana wrote:
Vipul wrote:BARC develops a Spent Fuel Chopper for PHWRs.

Bhabha Atomic Research Centre has developed a novel Spent Fuel Chopper (SFC) for the Pressurised Heavy Water Reactor (PHWR) fuel which will help in improving the utilisation/recycling of spent fuel.

GuruPrabhu, Is this pulverization based on ultrasonic technology like kidney stones are blasted with UT?
I just came across the article linked below (both links are for the same article). This is not a chopper, but a laser-based PHWR fuel rod dismantling and decladding systeml. Thought might interest you.

Link1
Link2
Last edited by Sanatanan on 13 Apr 2011 11:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Virupaksha »

not lower, but different. it is the additional cost of nuke deal - the need to have duplicate infrastructure for military as well.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

ravi_ku wrote:not lower, but different. it is the additional cost of nuke deal - the need to have duplicate infrastructure for military as well.
That's not correct. Those reactors which run on local fuel are outside the purview of international inspections and continue to run as before the deal.

Those that are and going to use imported fuel will be in a separate track. One thing that is not realized or perhaps deliberately fudged is that the number of reactors under safeguards will go because new reactors will built and not because previously un-safeguarded reactors will be progressively added to the system.

As far as I know every country's military and civilian reactors are separate entities. Why should India be any different if it seriously wants to tap the potential of creating energy by splitting atoms?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

ramdas wrote: A relentless nuke buildup at all costs is the need of the hour. We simply cannot afford to have a bunch of leftists scuttle the weapons program in this manner.
A independent authority makes sense only in case of NPPs in civilian sector. Even then it should remain under GoI (perhaps a different ministry org that DAE)

However even for Strategic sector, we need two people at level of Chairman DAE, one regulatory one executive. This however does not have to be as "transparent" to public as the previous one.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by ramdas »

Somnathji,

A.G demands that experts outside DAE be part of the regulatory authority. What if environmental scientists are part of it ? Consider the following HYPOTHETICAL scenarios:

1. a recommendation that reprocessing activities halt and a cleanup be conducted at the reprocessing facilities (which may take some years) before any further reprocessing is conducted.

2. worker safety at wpn manufacturing plants is pointed out to be inadequate. Stop to weapon manufacturing for who knows how long.

3. same kind of recommendation about Pu production reactors in BARC...

Any of this will seriously disrupt weaponization. In this matter, high transparency is against national interest. What can be allowed is an independent body which can make recommendations which can be acted upon as long as the actions do not affect the weaponization process.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:A independent authority makes sense only in case of NPPs in civilian sector. Even then it should remain under GoI (perhaps a different ministry org that DAE)
And why is this so when the govt will be the sole entity which will run the nuclear power plants in India? You want one branch of the govt to look after what another branch is doing? If the shit hit the ceiling you want one arm of the Govt to sit in judgment to determine how another branch of the govt screwed up?

Isn't that similar to your very famous quote about Tepco sitting in judgement over Tepco?

I see you believe in a horses for courses theory. Unfortunately that works on the race track or even on a cricket field. In logic and debate such tactics result in less than pristine reputations for folks who indulge in that.
Last edited by amit on 13 Apr 2011 11:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

ramdas wrote:Somnathji,

A.G demands that experts outside DAE be part of the regulatory authority. What if environmental scientists are part of it ? Consider the following HYPOTHETICAL scenarios:

1. a recommendation that reprocessing activities halt and a cleanup be conducted at the reprocessing facilities (which may take some years) before any further reprocessing is conducted.

2. worker safety at wpn manufacturing plants is pointed out to be inadequate. Stop to weapon manufacturing for who knows how long.

3. same kind of recommendation about Pu production reactors in BARC...

Any of this will seriously disrupt weaponization. In this matter, high transparency is against national interest. What can be allowed is an independent body which can make recommendations which can be acted upon as long as the actions do not affect the weaponization process.
Ramdas Ji,

If I may butt in, IMO, what you fear is exactly what all of us should fear. And that is why one shouldn't give one inch to the green lobby even for civilian nuclear power. As I posted on the previous page, it's no coincidence that the high priests of the Green lobby also happen to be known non proliferation Ayatollahs. And they use disasters like the Fukushima one to subtly enforce the NPA agenda.

I can bet you if the "Green" movement in India gains any long term traction thanks to stalwarts like that Thackeray fellow, it's going to go to the next logical step of targeting our military facilities.

The argument is irrestible (for the NPAs) if nuclear power plants are not built due to environmental concerns and due to "safety" of local residents, why should residents around our military installations suffer?

In their rush to show their green credentials BRF's twice-born Green warriors have not thought this through. Of course the possibility exist that they have thought it through and that's why they are doing what they are doing.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by ramdas »

Amitji,

I hope you are not saying that non-governmental "experts" be allowed to sit in judgement on our weapons program. That is completely unacceptable for reasons I have earlier pointed out. Rather than that, the internal regulatory mechanism of BARC should continue. Until weapons programs have fully matured, they have always lacked transparency. In the name of transparency/accountability, we cannot compromise on the buildup of the deterrent.

Hopefully,in a decade or so, we achieve a credible arsenal of several hundred deployed weapons (preferably thermonuclear). Then this kind of regulatory mechanism may be acceptable.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

ravi_ku wrote:not lower, but different. it is the additional cost of nuke deal - the need to have duplicate infrastructure for military as well.
Not true at all...All power reactors can be used to generate WGPu..And we have already marked out 8 of our PHWRs as being outside IAEA safeguards....
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by ramdas »

Amitji,

We are on the same page here. Indeed, this whole liberal NGO lobby is highly subversive. It is also socially destabilizing: creating unrest when its demands are not conceded. Not only should we not concede an inch to it on civilian nuke power or any other industrialization program, the IB should ruthlessly use all soft and hard measures possible to render it ineffective and discredited.

This lobby is a strategic tool used by forces that do not want our country to become powerful....
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

ramdas wrote:Somnathji,

A.G demands that experts outside DAE be part of the regulatory authority. What if environmental scientists are part of it ? Consider the following HYPOTHETICAL scenarios:

1. a recommendation that reprocessing activities halt and a cleanup be conducted at the reprocessing facilities (which may take some years) before any further reprocessing is conducted.

2. worker safety at wpn manufacturing plants is pointed out to be inadequate. Stop to weapon manufacturing for who knows how long.

3. same kind of recommendation about Pu production reactors in BARC...

Any of this will seriously disrupt weaponization. In this matter, high transparency is against national interest. What can be allowed is an independent body which can make recommendations which can be acted upon as long as the actions do not affect the weaponization process.
Ramdas-ji, I would tend to give Dr. Gopalakrishnan the benefit of doubt, I think by "outsiders" he means a regime that does not report to DAE..Which in principle is unexceptionable, how can the producer (DAE/BARC/NPCIL) be its own regulator? That does not mean that the "independent" AERB is staffed by assorted people like Uddhav Thackrey and Praful Bidwai :twisted: ...

On the hypothetical scenarios, you are painting a really dire picture - it would only happen in case our facilities are run in a completely screwed up manner...Frankly, if that is the case, we have a bigger problem...Typically, regulators, especially in monopoly sectors do not tend to sit in pompous judgement of its only "client" - they work mutually to resolve issues...Good regulators tend to do that in any industry...

What Amit says here
amit wrote:The argument is irrestible (for the NPAs) if nuclear power plants are not built due to environmental concerns and due to "safety" of local residents, why should residents around our military installations suffer?
is absolutely right....Thanks to the new fear of unknown unknowns, everyone is doing CYA...So we have asked for a safety audit of civvie reactors...Why shouldnt the same be applied to weapons reactors? Are the good denizens of Mumbai lesser citizens than the citizens living around Narora that they deserve a lesser "quality of nuke safety"? Any hint of lesser responsibility on account of the weapons programme cause public support for the same to be weaned away...

why allow that to happen in the first place?!
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

ramdas wrote:Amitji,

I hope you are not saying that non-governmental "experts" be allowed to sit in judgement on our weapons program.
No, no, no, Ramdas ji I am not saying that at all. I think you second post to me reflects a similar POV with mine on this issue. We are certainly on the same page here.
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