Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Apr 2011 01:44

They want to keep false image and re inforcing. First keep a false picture if Hindus in the west using their westenr universities, Then get false data points and re inforce images of the Hindus in the west.
Since they dont get any material even some loose talk is also included as real facts
This is the value of propaganda

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Apr 2011 01:51

ramana wrote:Those GDF folks were trying to trap you to plant this IED here. There were discussions on languages and they thought yours would add to the mix.

guilty as charged. Couldn't find any other way to Qadrify that discussion... didn't think LKji would take my pointer that seriously

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 14 Apr 2011 02:01

RamaY saar... I am wonly nanha mujahid in BRF.... bliss to eggjquuse my stupidity.

That being said, which thread should it go to? I seriously think that there should be a thread to watch cyber-jihadists and EJs on Wikipedia (we might need a bot to track down suspects and keep an eye on every edit they make).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2011 02:15

Try the Psy Ops thread

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Apr 2011 02:37

ramana ji,
I am beginning to have serious doubts about floated claims of profound knowledge of "economics" and "finance" and which then apparently extends to every topic under the sun. The few points where it came to actual hand on signs of knowledge - the dirty details - always drew a blank. Outbursts and gratuitous ridicule - on terms and terminology that immediately shows complete non-acquaintance with various areas that would have come naturally to someone who applies "economics" and "finance" to everything! Accusers of others being wiki-based or google-based appear to be able to provide references only from wiki or google, and that too without showing signs of comprehensive searching abilities.

My hunch is that knowledge in "economics" proper is also superficial and not from the mathematical as well as rigorous statistical side. Not much experience in serious modeling or number crunching required in professional life. More of the management angle, which basically rides on "political" manipulation skills level to get work done by others, rather than rigorous capability to do the same on one's own - more of experience of entry level papers and texts that do not go down to the dirt details but throw a lot of jargon around. There is an uncanny feel of non-academic-research build-up, that slippery bypassing of rigour and logical chain but an overwhelming manipulative approach at a person-to-person level rather than any real interest in intellectual query.

You know that I have stayed away from the "economy" forum: may I lay some IED's there from now on? People without rigorous foundations are juicy!

Haven't done such baiting for long long years!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2011 02:52

If you have a civil discussion then its OK but not baiting to entrap anyone. In end all are BRF mmebers and here for a reason that they care about desh. We cant stoop to conquer.

AKalam · Post by **AKalam** » 14 Apr 2011 03:34

My apologies for being late in responding to posts addressed to me personally, but I will try to address the issues raised.

What Harbans ji, B ji and RamaY ji are saying is that Reconquista does not have to be a violent war ridden process, rather it can be a multi generational peaceful process of consolidation, while the core civilizational values of Sanatan Dharma is strengthened and the way ward sons and daughters can be brought back to its fold in a long drawn out process. It may take multiple centuries just as the Reconquista in Iberia took 800 years.

While the velvet glove is softly doing the work, the Iron hand will stay hidden, till its needed in a worst case scenario, when it will strike as a hammer.

If this sums up the vision and if it does not involve ethnic cleansing and genocide then I don’t see why there should be any objection to such an approach and sentiment. If someone wants to try and win over a group to their side, I should wish them luck and success.

But the challenges are huge, it implicitly means that Indic civilization will again have to become the torch bearer of humanity, as perhaps it was around 2000 years ago. It will also mean that SDRE Indic archetype will have to replace the gora as the highest race or ethnic group in the totem pole. At the same time Muslims will need to be in the gutter like they are now, due to the obvious and inherent fault and defect of their civilization and way of life.

Pakistan is in disarray, but one should not write them off as yet. Muslims in India are well integrated and will become more so in the future, but it would be delusional to think that what happens in the greater Muslim world, outside the subcontinent, will not affect them one way or the other. Bangladesh will work with India, opening up transit links to NE, increasing trade and people to people contacts in all fields, and even partner with India for a SAARC Union excluding Pakistan, but it will be wary and paranoid of India’s intention, specially when an idea like Reconquista is on the table.

It would be reasonable for subcontinental Muslims to come to the conclusion, from the idea of Reconquista, that the Indic Hindu civilization will, over the long term, work to weaken and undermine Islam and Muslim in all spheres of their existence where ever they may be in the globe, because only when Muslims are weak and divided, they will not be able to help their subcontinental brothers in faith and only when subcontinental Muslims are sufficiently weak and divided in the face of strong and united Hindu India, will the subcontinental Muslims be won over to their side.

So to deduce further, Islam and this time not just in the subcontinent, but entire global Muslim community, will go into a collision course with Hindu civilization. Both the Chini’s and the gora West would be salivating at such a scenario.

Of course it is still early to tell whether Islam and Muslims will be able to unite sufficiently to face such a common threat, that is something we will find out in the future, I guess.

Another possible future scenario is that religions or civilizations, the cause of division for humanity, will become more irrelevant in an increasingly technologically advanced and globalized world, and these divisive feelings and sentiments will not be able to drive and motivate whole countries and their people to engage in some kind of supremacy project, so dreams such as these will remain just dreams and anachronistic thought experiments.

As for Somnath ji’s attempt to strike a reasonable course, it is admirable, but I must say that the approach comes off as “secular”, closer to the one followed by Congress party, that is a left-over legacy from the Brown Shahibs of British raj, who rule over the masses, using divide and rule techniques, vote bank politics being just one aspect of it. Its also quite possible that in coming years that this leadership group may get increasingly sidelined with the rise of a more nationalistic voice, similar to the prevalent voice in BRF.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Apr 2011 04:30

ramana ji,
blanket aspersions on qualifications of all and sundry were freely distributed, abuses galore - but was it returned in matching kind? Have never been un-civil unless having to return minimal reciprocality.

I only raise and will raise issues and questions.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Apr 2011 04:45

Akalam bhai,
no one will be happier than me if there is an intrinsic organic desire to "change" and give up the non-itjihad line [in fact which I partly recognized in my earlier projections about Iran and the "Islamic world" need not remain the "same"]. That might be spontaneous, but might also be helped along by external factors, isn't it?

It does not need to look like a clash of civilizations, but rather a clash between modernity and retrogression, between "holding back" and "moving forward" etc. All I am saying is that moving forward in purely "economic terms" and "economic cooperation" alone will not guarantee that other civilizational liberation. Questioning of the basic tenets was there very early - and some of the most prominent questioners came from the Indo-Iranian spectrum, like Ibn Sina.

Its the non-stationarity of civilzational quest - that is a shared heritage - at least along the Indo-Aryan-Iranian civilizational hinterland. Need to reach that point again. Sooner or later we will come to that point again, and I am immensely hopeful in the basic human tendency to question everything. If I was not hopeful in that respect I would not have expressed my desire to target the mullahcracy and their institutional framework only [ of course there will be desperate attempts to show people and mullahcracy inseparable] but have faith that eventually we will win over the people without the mullahcracy to continue the civilizational brainwash. But we need to keep the institutional theocracy in mind as an obstacle - and the need to delegitimize and disempower them simultaneously with the economic/educational incentives. That is all.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Apr 2011 05:04

So to deduce further, Islam and this time not just in the subcontinent, but entire global Muslim community, will go into a collision course with Hindu civilization. Both the Chini’s and the gora West would be salivating at such a scenario.

Kalam Ji, all countries in the world if i am not mistaken are already signatories to the 'Universal Charter of Human rights'. That charter is not just a Western one. The European enlightenment philosophers owe a lot to India. Many have acknowledged so quite openly. I am for defining our core values at the minimum first in India based on SD and truly reflecting Human rights for all and sundry not just Hindu. Practice and worship varies greatly within the Hindu fold and even within families. Vaishnaviites, Shaiviites, Ganesh Bhakts, Dvait and advait there are many ways the omnipotent is worshipped in India without problem. One could call each of them a separate religion or bunch them all as Hindu's. HIstory shows us there have never been blood baths of blood feuds between Hindu folds even though practise varied greatly. Simply because no one or no Hindu disputes and neither should any right thinking person of any religious denomination of what the Vedas say: God is one, but various sages worship God with different names. That signals inherent tolerance to religious diversity.

This 'Tolerance for religious diversity' will remain inherent ONLY because that Vedic saying is accepted as indisputable in India. This tolerance will end if one group says no it does not accept that. God has only ONE name and it's "Toco". And if you don't worship Toco in the manner i say and believe is right i am obliged to fight you. So Toco'ists hold the rest in low regard, including their fundamental accepted version that God is one and he has several names including "Toco". The source of friction simply put now is not in original concept of acceptance, but the doctrinal concept of Excluvism in Tocoism that simply upsets the accepted fundamental set up of the individual right to connect to God in his own way.

So within Indian families it's not uncommon to Vaishnaviites, Shaiivite, Buddhist, Atheist, Jain, advaita followers but it's uncommon to mix up with the excluvism of Toco'ites. This is happening in Europe too. They are asking Tocoites if they believe in the fundamentals of that society. In the pluralist tradition, the respect of other religions. Because they have begun to realize that the very foundation of their plural and liberal tradition will collapse if Toco'ites stick to their excluvist beliefs.

What i am asking is India too ask it's people if they do fundamentally believe in these value systems? What i am asking is India to identify these liberal and pluralist value systems as enshrined in SD..which they are and stick to it. Oncee Toco'ites accept that reality..who am i or anyone to belittle their belief system and connect? Presently in India people believe we are following some Western value system. The Psecs do. If we did truly believe in SD we'd be backing the rebels being massacred by Gaddaffi..oil or not.

While Vaishnaviites, Shaiviites, Sikhs, Jains don't really bother about their numbers..none is thinking if we have adequate numbers we will make India a Vaishnaviite or Shaiviite or Buddhist or Jain or Sikh state. None. They feel secure. Tocoites meanwhile are counting numbers, not just in India, but elsewhere. When they have adequate ones, they'll demand excluvist geography, and excluvist political and religious system, marginalize the liberal and pluralists and destroy the core values of pluralism and liberalism.

Kalam Ji, you are a good thinker. Tell me how is it possible to integrate Tocoists in the most fundmantal way with the rest as long as they stick to the doctrine of excluvism. The options are a) abandoning are SD inferred liberal and tolerant philosophy b) Inaction and let Tocoites grow and break us up more. c) Let (b) continue till we get outbred in 150 years, then we will all be Tocoites and maybe vote Pervez Tocoruff Jr as dictator to stop the spreading chaos and intolerance in India. d) Tell everyone has a say in this nation as long as they respect the the others right as much. That the charter of fundamental rights extends to one and all who accepts it in it's liberal and pluralistic way.

By going for d) as reflected in SD we achieve something more than just with India and the subcontinent. We bring back to our fold Tibet, Myanmar, Nepal and more. Our fold is not some political boundary..but uniting different people thinking pluralist and liberal tradition. This precludes them again falling for other Isms being thrust out. Asia and our regions have suffered so much due to value system imports like Maoism, Communism etc.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Apr 2011 07:07

brihaspati wrote: My hunch is that knowledge in "economics" proper is also superficial and not from the mathematical as well as rigorous statistical side.
...

Bji,

The problem is not knowledge or lack there of. The problem is lack of "intellect". Please allow me to elaborate.

By training, one can be an exceptional financial analyst. That is knowledge. The knowledge can vary depending on your school; for example a market-economics school may have a different approach to financial analysis from say a socialist-economics school; both of which could be different from say Indic-economics school.

A person with intellect will try to separate the concept from tools. S/He would first see if a concept is applicable to a given problem and will apply the tools accordingly. The key ingredient here is 'intellect'. Some schools only teach tools. Others go upto concepts. Even in the best of best schools the intellect is expected to be student's contribution. A teacher (even the best one) can only sharpen the intellect; but can never create one when it is non-existent (of course exceptions apply - like Shankaracharya and padmapada). That is the reason why we see tons of mediocre output even from the best schools.

The worst-case scenario is when a mind of no-intellect is filled with arrogance. That leads to the lethal combination of wrong-application of knowledge and arrogance.

That is what we are seeing threadbare.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Apr 2011 07:13

AKalam wrote:As for Somnath ji’s attempt to strike a reasonable course, it is admirable, but I must say that the approach comes off as “secular”, closer to the one followed by Congress party, that is a left-over legacy from the Brown Shahibs of British raj, who rule over the masses, using divide and rule techniques, vote bank politics being just one aspect of it. Its also quite possible that in coming years that this leadership group may get increasingly sidelined with the rise of a more nationalistic voice, similar to the prevalent voice in BRF

Not sure how the "Congress view" came across...And not sure what constitutes a "nationalist" view either, given the amount of "compromises" our self-proclaimed "nationalists" have had to do to retain electoral credibility....

At a fundamental level, the issue is of an approach...Is the approach one of confidence, in one's civiliational ethos, current capabilities and a spirit of adventure to find and carve a new world? Or is it that of paranoia, defining black-and-white "enemies" (among the usual suspects - Islam, America, Christianity et al) and then flailing, sancho panza tyle to bring "back" an idealised idea of the past? Strangely or perhaps not so, the Islamists tend to articulate a similar vision as well - an idealised vision of the "glorious past", a global islamic ummah, and assorted enemies in Jews, Christians, America and Hindus...

Across multiple layers, the vox pop is there to be seen for anyone not shtting there eyes...

I alluded to the "compromises" our uber nationalists parties have had to make to retain eletoral credibility...Refer also the to the articulation of people in the same nationalist parties (well, party - BJP) who need to get elected to the views of the so-called ideological founders...And also refer to the essential congruence of views around most key issues - economic and strategic between the nationalist (BJP) and the "perfidious" (Congress)...

Second, refer to campuses across India..Its mighty difficult to discern empirical trends given there is no serious studies (at least not those I have seen), but anecdotally, the views and outlook of the young in India essentially express a confidence in assimilation, and India's ability to win - all of which is communicated in a syntax that doesnt refer to their alma mater as Bharatiya Pradyogiki/Prabandhan Pratishthan!

It is no wonder that India has been so much more open to global cooperative structures from the mid '90s onwards - because public opinion has been supporitve of that...Earlier, we were comfortable with "talk shops" like NAM/UN - entities mouthing rhetoric about earth, universe and everything else and doing essentially nothing..But extremely loathe to joining arhitetures that were meant to "do" something - ASEAN for example...Being the big country by far in all respects, failure of SAARC to move beyond a mere talkshop too lies substantially (not wholly) with India...Hitherto, we havent shown enough imaginatveness in incubating new ideas around them...That has changed in the last 10-15 years...

Which is why a Common South Asian Market (and seurity architecture to follow) is an idea whose time has come...It might be instructive for our nationalists to recall that ABV had articluated the idea of a South Asian Common Currency some years ago..Now the common ccy idea itself is an extremely BAD one, but the essential philosophy behind the thought is eminently with-the-times....

Finlly, Akalam-ji its about the famous articulation by someone who we all know well - "where the mind is without fear....."..

It is the same thought process that sees an opportunity in the fact that China and Japan have such large trade and investments despite centuries of mistrust and wars, continuing to this day, rather than taking that as an example of what we need to be afraid of...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Apr 2011 07:38

AKalam Bhai,

Thanks for the honest response. Truly appreciate the way your bring out pertinent issues and you taking the intended meaning in our posts, instead of throwing fits like [sic] seculars.

Indic values are inclusive in nature; be it ideologies or people of different races/cultures or Flora and fauna. The only condition is that those sub-systems must also be pluralistic and tolerant.

Now if the whole purpose of the future strategic scenario of any given society/civilization is to live happily, prosper and seek knowledge; that objective cannot be achieved thru ideologies that are not conducive of such environment. The ideologies that seek homogenization of human spirit lack the basic understanding human psyche that seeks to maintain its individuality; like I have a unique existence different even from my mother and father from whom I came to existence.

So selection of right tools and strategies is extremely important to achieve a just goal, assuming that is the goal of a given civilization.

What happens when a civilization's goal is not to achieve prosperity, happiness and intellect; but domination? Or a civilization wants to achieve that goal thru domination?

Islam and this time not just in the subcontinent, but entire global Muslim community, will go into a collision course with Hindu civilization. Both the Chini’s and the gora West would be salivating at such a scenario.

That may appear scary at the outset. But, this is not new to Bharat. It has been tried before (starting from Epic times) and failed. It will fail again. Indicness exists as long as consciousness exists (not just humans) and a Vasudhaika Kutumbam can be achieved only thru Bharat (the Karma bhoomi); you can do the inference.

Now it is up to a society, be it Bangladesh or Pakistan, whether to be a co-traveler in this journey or stand as an obstacle and get destroyed or worse left behind till their underlying ideologies turn Dharmic. The journey must and will go on.

P.S: Imagine the fate of today's Bangladesh if it was not liberated (and left alone) by Bharat (Like B'ji summarized in an earlier post). On the other hand, it would have been immense relief on Bharat as there wouldn't have been the BD illegal immigration into NE and WB.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 14 Apr 2011 09:30

somnath wrote:One of the features of ignorance is bliss, and to some people of smug versions of it...So a hare-brained "barter trade" proposal (to be "squared off" @ the end of each year, whatever that means) is the same as a grants/credit line facility in lcy!!!

BTW, the biggest lcy grants line in the history of India was the PL480 programme of the US, which also partially funded the first IIT/IIM..

IIRC, PVNR formed something similar in 1991/92 for our trade with Russia. They had a dire need for USD (which we lacked), and we had a dire need for their weapons (which they needed to sell). So an escrow account was formed and it helped both countries. The accounts were settled at the end of the year (I assume in USD). There was no need for either country to handle large amounts of USD. Thus, both countries entirely bypassed the global forex markets.

Of course, this had the additional benefit that (by the end of the year) all accounts could be locked away, so any bribes paid would not be recorded.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 14 Apr 2011 09:37

somnath wrote:
abhischekcc wrote:The world is changing faster than we could have anticipated. Certainly faster than the Jurassic Parks called American think tanks can anticipate.

----------------
>>India needs to start consolidating South Asia within cooperative architectures quickly

Why limit to South Asia alone? The whole of IOR is India's pool. We are the most balanced power (economic, military, political, and philosophical) in this region, where we can actually produce changes to our liking.

Of course, we are also the most balanced power in the world in that sense, but we still need to be able to influence events far from our shores before we consider it our pool.
I wouldnt be dismissive of American think tanks at all - they constitute the best infrastructure of long run strategic thinking in the world...And a lot of them have been talking of the shift to Asia...

Anyways, why only South Asia? Because if we cant consolidate our own neighbourhood within such architectures, what credibility do we have in proposing successful models far offshore? SA is a start, once that is in place, we extend it...BTW, the IOR concept has also been initiated..The Indian Ocean Rim initiative was started by PVNR...Issue is, its too nebulous even now to formalise into something concrete....But it can happen..First, we need to display that we can take leadership and create a successful architecture - what better place than our backyard?

Even while I was typing the earlier post, I knew you were going to say exactly this.

Actually, when you think about it, we should start the IOR first, and NOT invite pakistan, bangladesh, nepal, and australia: because these countries come with a huge psychological issues wrt India. Getting cooperation from them will be a task in itself.

African countries OTOH are virgin territory as far as relations with India is concerned.

We could build the IOR first and then *allow* SA countries/aussie in.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Apr 2011 11:18

somnath wrote:At a fundamental level, the issue is of an approach...Is the approach one of confidence, in one's civiliational ethos, current capabilities and a spirit of adventure to find and carve a new world? Or is it that of paranoia, defining black-and-white "enemies" (among the usual suspects - Islam, America, Christianity et al) and then flailing, sancho panza tyle to bring "back" an idealised idea of the past?

Somnath, have you considered the possibility that you are the one on this forum who lacks confidence in India's civilizational ethos?

India's civilizational ethos is characterized by(i) a belief in the efficacy of education and knowledge, (ii) worship of wealth creation and success in worldly matters and (iii) a unique stress on pluralism in matters of faith, at the individual level. Someone truly confident of these ideals would be looking to take these concepts out globally so the rest of the world can benefit from these same ideals. India should be doing everything possible to ensure that it remains the fountainhead for these ideals in the future - and a source of inspiration for others both within the neighborhood and elsewhere.

Which one of the ideals above do you find to be backward-looking? On the contrary, you are looking at the future of the world - that India will play its rightful role in defining.

Strangely or perhaps not so, the Islamists tend to articulate a similar vision as well - an idealised vision of the "glorious past", a global islamic ummah, and assorted enemies in Jews, Christians, America and Hindus...

It shows up your lack of understanding of the Indic vision that you actually compare the Islamist vision with it !!!! The Islamist vision is backward because it lacks all three elements of the Indic vision - (i) it militates against education and knowledge; (ii) religion takes precedence over entreprenurship and societal wealth creation & (iii) its exclusivist ethos is the antithesis of pluralism !

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Apr 2011 11:37

abhischekcc wrote:IIRC, PVNR formed something similar in 1991/92 for our trade with Russia. They had a dire need for USD (which we lacked), and we had a dire need for their weapons (which they needed to sell). So an escrow account was formed and it helped both countries. The accounts were settled at the end of the year (I assume in USD). There was no need for either country to handle large amounts of USD. Thus, both countries entirely bypassed the global forex markets.

Of course, this had the additional benefit that (by the end of the year) all accounts could be locked away, so any bribes paid would not be recorded.

ACtually its just the opposite...We had a rupee-ruble trade (and credit) arrangement between India and Russia..In 1992, Russia no longer wanted that to continue, it wasnted to get paid for all its exports (and loans) in hard ccy...After lengthy negotiations, the following was decided:

1. All Russian exports would be settled in hard ccy from now on, ie, 1992...Prospectively, rupee-rouble is dead...

2. the entire rouble debt would be redenominated in INR - at an exchange rate that was hugely favourable to Russia..India would pay about USd 1 billion equivalent to Russia every year for 12 years, and then smaller amounts for a further 33 years...Russia would use these "INR" balances (kept with RBI) to import goods and services from India..

In subsequent years, trade between India and Russia, especially exports by India, fell drastically...Hence, the annual 1 bill was not being utilised and was being accumulated as debt...There was then a decision to use the rupee balances for Russian investments in India...that too didnt take off...there's been a pickup in trade, and the utilisaiton is expected to improve now...

It was an anachronistic arrangement and had to be settled in a convoluted manner...

Use of "restricted lcy" as trade settlement ccies work only if there is significant (and largely balanced) trade between the two nations...Which is why most trade flows (and investment flows) are denominated in open, convertible ccies - USD being the most prominent..And yes, no one talks of "barter trade" anymore...

abhischekcc wrote:African countries OTOH are virgin territory as far as relations with India is concerned

Well, we are already deep in Africa...Second to China no doubt, but pretty well entrenched..Issue is that Africa is a bit remote from a geopolitical perspective..We are not in a position to influence wht happens in Liberia for instance, or Burundi or Zim in any meaningful manner...We are in a "resource extraction" drive there...In SA, we have a larger geopolitical influence..Communication linkages - BD to integrate NE with the mainland, linkages between SL and TN creating a larger sub-regional market for South India, potentially use of naval bases in SL and BD - the agenda on geopolitics therefore is larger..

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 14 Apr 2011 11:48

3

. All muslims are at best a sullen minority, at worst potential fifth column..

shouldn't this be considered flame baiting?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Apr 2011 11:51

shouldn't this be considered flame baiting?

No way! He's absolutely correct in all his 5 points. What's wrong in any one of them and the conclusions or inference drawn therein?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Apr 2011 11:56

somnath wrote:in the consumer marketplace .

Somnath you missed the most crucial one, the presence of DIE for whom ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is marketable.

Indics reject that too.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 14 Apr 2011 12:01

In general, look for Christian-Western-Islamist conspiracies in everything that happens...

Mohammad bin Qasim to Dalhosie they were all just CTs. But then India was devoid of rational objective thinking until Lord Macaulaghy arrived and then came MN Roy, JNU and finally fire-flies like Shambhunath.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 14 Apr 2011 14:29

somnath wrote:If the above stand for "indic" values, then the people of this country have voted - electorally

But that was with tamperable EVMs

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Apr 2011 14:32

Sanku, I have sent you a PM.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Apr 2011 14:53

SSridhar wrote:Sanku, I have sent you a PM.

SSridhar Sir, replied by mail, Please check.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Apr 2011 17:01

somnath wrote:My comment is for those for whom "indic values" stand for:
1. US/West is a conspirator - they are out to destroy us.
2. Urdu is a foreign language (why? because it is a "muslim" language) - we need to "cleanse" it out..In fact, "cleanse" "Indian" languages of all "foreign" influences..
3. All muslims are at best a sullen minority, at worst potential fifth column..
4. Christian educational institutions are evangelising schools - should be ideally closed down..
5. In general, look for Christian-Western-Islamist conspiracies in everything that happens...

Answering from my perspective- the first two of your points are pure geopolitical issues. The approach has nothing to do with Indic values - while the last three do have relevance. Going down the list...

1. There are no permanent friends or enemies...but geostrategic relationships are inherently competitive. In business, you would expect a competitor to do everything to take market share away from you - and similarly given that India is now capable of posing a threat to the US, West or China in geostrategic issues - one needs to build in an expectation of possible moves from the others to 'balance' India or stunt any moves that could threaten the current global leadership. But then, that should not preclude any issue-based alignment with either the West or China. Reflexive distrust of the West would be just as naive as a blind trust of the West.

2. The decision on Urdu must be taken purely on geostrategic considerations....If the primary language of Indian media / Bollywood / Indian intellectuals / Indian street is largely perceived to be non-indigenous and derived more from Persian / Farsi than Sanskrit - it does nothing whatsoever for Indian 'soft power and is in fact, detrimental to it... Irrespective of your and Harbans claims regarding Urdu - the decision should be based on the dominant perception derived from wiki / internet sources regarding the language. If the intention is to ultimately change what comes across through wiki / google regarding Urdu - there may be some merit in claiming it. Else - it is a pretty poor strategy to let Urdu gain more prominence !!

3 & 4: Muslims and Christians are as Indian as Hindus in India - as long as they believe in the three Indic ideals I had identified earlier. One corollary of the Indic ideals is that exclusivist ideologies can never be allowed to gain prominence in India - since that would fundamentally alter India's pluralist ethos.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 14 Apr 2011 17:37

somnath wrote:My comment is for those for whom "indic values" stand for:
1. US/West is a conspirator - they are out to destroy us.

Does the US/West have their own strategic interests? Yes or No?
Do their strategic interests always coincide with those of India? Yes or No?
Do they not want to dominate the politics of other countries, either through war (e.g. Iraq, Libya), finance (IMF?), access to resources (uranium, Oil, etc), or international organizations (UNSC)? Yes or No?
Is there a history of India being colonized by the "West" (e.g. Britain)? Yes or No?

All just rhetorical questions onlee!

somnath wrote:2. Urdu is a foreign language (why? because it is a "muslim" language) - we need to "cleanse" it out..In fact, "cleanse" "Indian" languages of all "foreign" influences..

As long as Urdu is used for conversation, culture, entertainment, few have a problem with that! If it begins to be used for segregationist tendencies within certain groups, as justifications for separatism, as it already has been used previously in history, then it becomes unwelcome! How to curtail the latter tendency? Perhaps by ensuring that it does not assert its foreign origins by continuing to import foreign (Persian, Turkic, Arabic) vocabulary, and that any requirement of expansion in vocabulary is met through Indian languages.

I have noticed a tendency by you to denigrate any use of Shuddh Hindi!

I can may be tell you from little of my experience with a foreign language - German. I speak German probably at par with English. Any language worth its name, which wants to establish itself as a mode of communication in the modern world, or in fact putting it even more abstractly, as a mode of communication at any point in time, needs to be able to express 99% of the range, complexity, nuance and precision of the thought process in constructs which arise out of its origins. Even words that have a foreign etymology are modified to reflect the language's own flexion, but the preference is for using of words originating in the language or its family of languages. There are of course always a set of foreign words which are used as is, because they represent a nuance which is imported from the other culture, and needs to be preserved as is.

Most major languages make an effort to keep pace with the fast moving globalized world to cater to new thought processes. This is true for German, French, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, etc. The language should be complete in itself to represent the modern human's thought process, as much as possible.

That is the same effort being undertaken in terms of Hindi, or for that matter even many regional languages.

Should Hindi fail to cater to that challenge - expressiveness to cover the range, complexity, nuance and precision of modern human's thought process, people would start wandering off to other languages which can better capture what they wish to say! In the course of this migration, people would then also lose out the civilizational, historical and cultural roots which were available only through their own language. People would lose out on their own indigenous thought process which had evolved through their language.

Is that what "confidence in one's own civilization" is all about?

If one wants to speak Urdu, or English one should go ahead and speak those languages as purely as one can! But if one wants to speak Hindi, say where one is required to speak Hindi, then I don't have any understanding for making the kind of khichrhdi that we often make, throwing in Urdu, Punjabi and a whole lot of English words in! That is NOT Hindi. That is a travesty of the language. That is Hindi of those who can't speak better or consider it cool to use non-Hindi words.

The kind of language the moderators use on Indian TV, were it to be used in say Germany, France, Russia, Japan, China or elsewhere, the moderator would have been kicked on his nuts for incompetence and thrown out in disgust!

Today few who get their school education in say Delhi, few would be really capable of going on a stage and speaking on a topic in Shuddh Hindi! There would invariably jut in several words of English and may be even Urdu! That is not to be looked upon the kid just speaking the normal tongue! No! That is sheer incompetence! In fact any German, French, Russian, Japanese or Chinese would look upon the guy as pathetic to the core!

So the question is not really about language chauvinism, but about the richness of a language to suffice the demands of modernity, and the competence of the speakers of that language!

somnath wrote:3. All muslims are at best a sullen minority, at worst potential fifth column..

Subcontinental Muslims are submissive and deferent to the Muslim Master Races - the Arabs (ideology), Turks (chauvinism) and Persians (culture)!

This submissiveness and deference opens up a weak spot and this weakness could allow others to use it to their own ends or to subvert Indian interests.

As long as the Subcontinental Muslims themselves do not come out of their stupor and the unbridled fascination for the West Asian, the Indics have to remain vigilant that the Subcontinental Muslims are not inadvertently acting against India's (including their) national interests.

somnath wrote:4. Christian educational institutions are evangelising schools - should be ideally closed down..

Is Christianity not a proselytizing religion? Don't these educational institutions have sometimes a missionary background? So if they consider it as their mission to proselytize, who are we to doubt their declared intent?!

At least there should be a statutory warning to all parents who wish to send their children to these schools! Something like: In this school your kid would not be taught much about his civilizational heritage. In this school your kid would not be taught by teachers who share that civilizational outlook. In this school your kid would not be living and breathing that civilizational ethos. It is highly possible, that your kid would grow up to be a fully deracinated dork with complexes, ashamed of what he is!

In case the school turns out to be disrespectful of the Indic way of life, over and above, what is considered as generally accepted social ills, and harking on only these negative aspects of the Indic way of life, then the school would be considered to have a narrow-minded anti-social agenda and may need to be shut down.

somnath wrote:5. In general, look for Christian-Western-Islamist conspiracies in everything that happens...

All three being proselytizing ideologies and value-systems, why is it so surprising that one would wish to install firewalls. Are the three not predatory in nature?

Don't tell me, you have such confidence in Windows, you don't need an Internet firewall? What is wrong in using precaution? Of course, some love to take digs and call that paranoia! Is creating awareness of a threat the same thing as paranoia?! I think the key difference between paranoia and precaution is history. One needs to ask history whether we have suffered at the hands of these threats or not? And if we have been subjugated in the past, then basically anybody who belittles precaution as paranoia is a traitor! Precaution, or for that matter even paranoia, is our right and duty!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Apr 2011 18:16

There are no permanent friends or permanent enemies in geopolitics, only permanent interests..No one expects favours...We have our own strategic imperatives, US/WEst/China has its own...Sometimes they conflict, soemtimes they converge...That does not mean that every action taken by the US/West is to "destroy" India..."Confidence" in ourselves precisely means that we will be able to deal with all major powers in a manner that maximises the gain for India...

I remember the sort of noises that came in 1991 - "East India Company redux"! Well, we saw what happened...A confident India engaged the West and trasnformed a decrepit country without much success or confidence (for 40 years) into one that is the rising star of the world....

Its the same confidence that reflects in the lingua franca of the people...I said this before - each passing decade has more India/Persian/Arabic words included in the official English lexicon - does that create problems or does it strengthen English's position as the lingua franca...The "fear" of the "other" is so high that the solution is supposed to be to impose a version of hindi that is "Indic" enough, in case the vox pop doesnt do it on its own!

Is that what Indian "values" is about? More importantly for me, is that what Indian republican constitutionalism is about? And given the deep appreciation of "history", how come the propnents of such idea fail to remember what happened but 40 years back on the issue of language?

German - what is the future of the language outside the germanic people? I know nothing about the german language, but a language that adapts and moves forward will have the best chance to consolodate itself...We have already seen that - trend-setting littereteurs of the day tend to simplify the language, not go back and complicate it - whether Premchand in 1920 or Ashok Chakradhar in 2011...

someone remember the brilliant movie Chupke Chupke, by Hrishikesh Mukherjee? Perhaps explains the concept better than a 1000 words...(Of course, in the movie the issue was about "English pollution" of hindi - Hrishida's sensibilities were too refined to suggest that urdu is a "foreign" language)....

Most importantly, the state reflects the will of the people, not the other way round..If vox pop is for a certain syntax, who are these few so-called guardian knight templars that have the right to impose an 18th century syntax? YOu cant win over the vox pop, so try to forcibly change it!

The level of disengenuity can therefore extend far and wide..So christian educational institutions need to have a "statutory warning"! Why does it sound a bit like the decision to have all Jewish establishments say "Juden" by a certain ideological bent of people in the early 1900s? Of course, underlying in that is the assumption that parents in India, literally millions of them, dont know what is best for their kids...again, such disdain for the market...You cant win it in the marketplace of ideas - so bring in the heavy hammer of diktat...

And on and on....All in the name of "precautions"?! Perhaps Sehwag's opinion has some resonance here - "tension leneka nahin, deneka hai!".....So worried are we with conspiracies, "pollution of language", fifth columnists that there is no space for embracing the outside world, to engage, to win...The same "precautions" made us an uncompetitive, insignificant economy for 45 years...We should have some more of such "precautions"....

I had quoted Tagore's famous "where mind is without fear..." earlier...It is useful to perhaps to understand the message of India's foremost internationalist, humanist and patron saint - has lessons that are relevant today - ironically (actually not), lessons that young India is imbibibg all the time naturally..

Ram Guha on Tagore....

http://tagore150toronto.ca/Guha.Tagoreintro.pdf

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Apr 2011 18:45

somnath wrote:I said this before - each passing decade has more India/Persian/Arabic words included in the official English lexicon - does that create problems or does it strengthen English's position as the lingua franca...

The key question is what percentage of the English lexicon is comprised of Persian / Arabic origin words or words originating from a specific non-Western geography ? This percentage will NEVER cross a low threshold. The day it does cross the threshold - you can say that soft power has passed on from the West to whichever geography is dominant in terms of originating words. That day would mark the end of Western cultural domination of the planet.

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 14 Apr 2011 19:21

Language is a means to express culture. Culture is a subset of the civilization one inherits. When a language is not reflective of the culture of the land, it brings forth its difficulties. A language which developed with the help of “external” elements will contain the value-systems of those elements. The developed language will not be able to express all that is part of the native-belief system. Moreover, one language following its native-belief systems may raise its speakers to the status of the divine. The another language, following its value systems might just objectify a part of its speakers.

Consider the 4 lines of poetry from Atriji's private collection

पराया स्वर्ग नरक है सब बेकार
दांपत्य जीवन में सुखी श्रीमती ही मोक्ष का द्वार
यही संसार को बनाये गुणवान
और मनुष्य में जगाये भगवान्

Now, Shrimati elevates the woman of the house to the level of Shri i.e. Laxmi and Mati i.e. Saraswati.
Dampatya means two equal masters of the same path in a conjugal relationship. Since the other "popular language" being discussed derives from a civilization where equal rights may not exactly be bestowed on women, it is difficult to find its replacement.

However, we must not be afraid and continue with our translation of this poem into the "popular language". But therein arises a problem of finding no words to exactly render the same. Say for example the second sentence.

दांपत्य जीवन में सुखी श्रीमती ही मोक्ष का द्वार will then become:
निकाह के बाद औरत ही दिलाये निजात की राह /nikah ke baad awrat hi dilaye nijaat ki raah.

While we may pardon the dumbing down of "dampatya" to "nikaah ke baad", but how does one ignore the root of the word "aurat/awrat" which is "awra" which basically means a "private part". So the translation becomes:

"After marriage, the private part is inded the path to salvation".

Ouch, there is a problem! We set out to translate some other sentence, but it turned out to be "Apna haath ..."

Moreover, if the four lines are translated, what comes up is a blasphemous rendition indeed which extols the reader to ignore heaven and hell and find moksha by discovering the divine within. No doubt it would be a case of "translate karte karte suli par chhad gaya ghalib".

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 14 Apr 2011 19:30

somnath wrote:There are no permanent friends or permanent enemies in geopolitics, only permanent interests..No one expects favours...We have our own strategic imperatives, US/WEst/China has its own...Sometimes they conflict, soemtimes they converge...That does not mean that every action taken by the US/West is to "destroy" India..."Confidence" in ourselves precisely means that we will be able to deal with all major powers in a manner that maximises the gain for India...

I remember the sort of noises that came in 1991 - "East India Company redux"! Well, we saw what happened...A confident India engaged the West and trasnformed a decrepit country without much success or confidence (for 40 years) into one that is the rising star of the world....

somnath ji,

It is you are out to prove that US/West does not intend to "destroy" India, as many here are "allegedly" saying! I am just asking on what basis can you be so sure!

One can "confidently" deal with another country, only if one has taken precautions that the other would not be able to screw you!

Confidence to interact comes from confidence in one's defenses. Mindless rush into someplace is hardly confidence.

Nobody and absolutely nobody here on BRF has said we should not deal with the West or China or whosoever! But somehow you wish to give that impression!

Also nobody has said that all actions of West/USA/China viz-a-viz India are to destroy India. But you have to prove that no action of the USA is not to destroy India! Because otherwise, what's wrong with caution!

somnath wrote:Its the same confidence that reflects in the lingua franca of the people...I said this before - each passing decade has more India/Persian/Arabic words included in the official English lexicon - does that create problems or does it strengthen English's position as the lingua franca...The "fear" of the "other" is so high that the solution is supposed to be to impose a version of hindi that is "Indic" enough, in case the vox pop doesnt do it on its own! Is that what Indian "values" is about? More importantly for me, is that what Indian republican constitutionalism is about? And given the deep appreciation of "history", how come the propnents of such idea fail to remember what happened but 40 years back on the issue of language?

German - what is the future of the language outside the germanic people? I know nothing about the german language, but a language that adapts and moves forward will have the best chance to consolodate itself...We have already seen that - trend-setting littereteurs of the day tend to simplify the language, not go back and complicate it - whether Premchand in 1920 or Ashok Chakradhar in 2011...

someone remember the brilliant movie Chupke Chupke, by Hrishikesh Mukherjee? Perhaps explains the concept better than a 1000 words...(Of course, in the movie the issue was about "English pollution" of hindi - Hrishida's sensibilities were too refined to suggest that urdu is a "foreign" language)....

Most importantly, the state reflects the will of the people, not the other way round..If vox pop is for a certain syntax, who are these few so-called guardian knight templars that have the right to impose an 18th century syntax? YOu cant win over the vox pop, so try to forcibly change it!

The vox pop lives in a lot of villages! How can you say, that they do not want to learn Hindi? Just because they don't have the financial muscle and the connections to the mainstream media, and thus cannot get their wish of having Shuddh Hindi through these channels, it doesn't mean that the wish is not there!

Elder members in my family itself were always bothered about how "the changing times" were forcing them to learn more English, even though they had no such wish, and would have been content were they left to speak in their own tongues! So should the urban brash rats get to decide what is vox pop, through their media, where they cannot even put a single moderator who can speak proper Hindi?

Nobody is telling you, you shouldn't use or speak English or Urdu, but the question is why do you want to stop Hindi from developing its own vocabulary in order to become or remain a full fledged language? Why do you want to prevent the next generations of Indians from being able to speak a proper indigenous language and to express the full repertoire of their thoughts in something that is not a mish-mash of arbitrarily chosen words from 2-3 languages?! What is this nonsense where people keep on jumping to and fro from Hindi to English and back within sentences or from sentence to sentence? It is because people are losing their ability to express themselves properly, to stick to a single complex thought process. In the end what comes out is a shallowness in thinking, because the person was not given the language tools to build and express more complex thoughts! Yes, I am talking about the urban uppity class!

You should not confuse the tongue of arbitrary mish-mash language constructs with a language with foreign words! A language with foreign words uses those foreign words which have a foreign cultural nuance or discovery not found in one's own language, but the own language is kept as fully functional to express the general thought process.

As I said, what is true for German, is also true for any non-Anglo world power. The French, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, they all have fully functional local languages! And yes, these languages including English are primarily there to cater to the thought processes of the people who natively speak these languages, and only secondarily for the world as link languages.

Whenever somebody deals intensively with these powers, one learns their language. One is in fact forced to learn their languages. Nobody learns an Indian language when one needs to deal with Indians for business or travel or politics or whatever. English suffices. Does that not make India the odd one out amongst the world powers? So when thinking about national power, this too is something one should consider!

So don't stop Indian languages from developing their full expressibility! (Meant for the "confident" people in general)

somnath wrote:The level of disengenuity can therefore extend far and wide..So christian educational institutions need to have a "statutory warning"! Why does it sound a bit like the decision to have all Jewish establishments say "Juden" by a certain ideological bent of people in the early 1900s? Of course, underlying in that is the assumption that parents in India, literally millions of them, dont know what is best for their kids...again, such disdain for the market...You cant win it in the marketplace of ideas - so bring in the heavy hammer of diktat...

If every adult in the world knows that cigarette smoking can be injurious to health, why have those statutory warnings on the cigarettes?! Why would law require those warnings? Are those not in public interest?

And basically what I mentioned in those statutory warnings regarding Christian schools, can you deny that?

somnath wrote:And on and on....All in the name of "precautions"?! Perhaps Sehwag's opinion has some resonance here - "tension leneka nahin, deneka hai!".....So worried are we with conspiracies, "pollution of language", fifth columnists that there is no space for embracing the outside world, to engage, to win...

I had quoted Tagore's famous "where mind ios without fear..." earlier...It is useful to perhaps to understand the message of Idnia's foremost internationalist, humanist and patron saint - has lessons that are relevant today - ironically (actually not), lessons that young India is imbibibg all the time naturally..

Ram Guha on Tagore....

http://tagore150toronto.ca/Guha.Tagoreintro.pdf

I believe you are the one fretting here! There is no limitation on engaging the world! Do we have to pull down our pants for the gora sahibs for that? Do we have to live without own language now for them, like the beasts? Do we have to give unrestricted access to outsiders to use our country to dump their vitriolic and separatist garbage for that?

You have probably never seen movies where the cowboy always had a revolver under the table?

Hope no hard feelings. All was meant as general commentary onlee and not to you personally!

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 14 Apr 2011 19:58

AjayKK wrote:Language is a means to express culture. Culture is a subset of the civilization one inherits. When a language is not reflective of the culture of the land, it brings forth its difficulties. A language which developed with the help of “external” elements will contain the value-systems of those elements. The developed language will not be able to express all that is part of the native-belief system. Moreover, one language following its native-belief systems may raise its speakers to the status of the divine. The another language, following its value systems might just objectify a part of its speakers.

Consider the 4 lines of poetry from Atriji's private collection

पराया स्वर्ग नरक है सब बेकार
दांपत्य जीवन में सुखी श्रीमती ही मोक्ष का द्वार
यही संसार को बनाये गुणवान
और मनुष्य में जगाये भगवान्

Now, Shrimati elevates the woman of the house to the level of Shri i.e. Laxmi and Mati i.e. Saraswati.
Dampatya means two equal masters of the same path in a conjugal relationship. Since the other "popular language" being discussed derives from a civilization where equal rights may not exactly be bestowed on women, it is difficult to find its replacement.

However, we must not be afraid and continue with our translation of this poem into the "popular language". But therein arises a problem of finding no words to exactly render the same. Say for example the second sentence.

दांपत्य जीवन में सुखी श्रीमती ही मोक्ष का द्वार will then become:
निकाह के बाद औरत ही दिलाये निजात की राह /nikah ke baad awrat hi dilaye nijaat ki raah.

While we may pardon the dumbing down of "dampatya" to "nikaah ke baad", but how does one ignore the root of the word "aurat/awrat" which is "awra" which basically means a "private part". So the translation becomes:

"After marriage, the private part is inded the path to salvation".

Ouch, there is a problem! We set out to translate some other sentence, but it turned out to be "Apna haath ..."

Moreover, if the four lines are translated, what comes up is a blasphemous rendition indeed which extols the reader to ignore heaven and hell and find moksha by discovering the divine within. No doubt it would be a case of "translate karte karte suli par chhad gaya ghalib".

Reading Pawan Verma, KK mullah.. enlightening onlee... will start with kaama in deracination dhaga in due time.. artha is taking much longer than expected..

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 14 Apr 2011 19:59

The Islamist vision is similarly "anti-something" in its outlook, more violent in some ways perhaps...

hmmmm.....Hindu == Islamist. ah....so, Islamist vision is just "perhaps" a more violent in "some ways" onleee. thanks for enlightening us. now, we know that Islamist radicalism is very similar to us just a bit more violent, that's all. really, have you missed the last 1000 years of Indian history. just a bit "more violent in some ways" indeed!!!

archan · Post by **archan** » 14 Apr 2011 20:12

All language related posts (> 100 posts) moved to Link language thread. Thanks to Sanku for painfully reporting each and every one. If some other post(s) got moved by mistake, please report. In future, people who call mods in their posts should instead use the "report post" option to gain our attention. Such issues, if dealt early on, save a lot of time later. Help us help you.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Apr 2011 20:51

RajeshA wrote:It is you are out to prove that US/West does not intend to "destroy" India, as many here are "allegedly" saying! I am just asking on what basis can you be so sure!
----------------------------
Also nobody has said that all actions of West/USA/China viz-a-viz India are to destroy India. But you have to prove that no action of the USA is not to destroy India! Because otherwise, what's wrong with caution!

RajeshA-ji, not at all..We have been told, on this very forum that "US and its associate institutions like IMF are out to destroy India - no debates, settled fact"! Ably supported with delicious hints by uber nationalist academics

I dont see geostrategic objectives as being in the realm of "I dont like you, I need to destroy you" mode...There are national objectives that each country has, and therefore it acts according to what it thinks is best...I expect no favours from the US, and dont expect India will be doing the US any favours either...But on a purely self interest perspective, the number of convergences today are great, and therefore we can profotably engage the US - thats all..

RajeshA wrote:So don't stop Indian languages from developing their full expressibility! (Meant for the "confident" people in general)

Dont want to belabour upon the language issue too much..But again, my point wasnt at all about not giving people a choice...On the copntrary, I want people to have the choice - and they are showing what choice they are exercising! I am simply pointing out what you and others have opined, ie, any "pollution" done by mass media/literature etc needs to be immediately rectified, is against republican values and against the values of India...Some have even gone to the length of defining it as a national security imperative - so the state must intervene in case vox pop does not conform...Of course, the academia (of course of the uber nationalist variety, the real academia out in DU behaves differently!) takes great pride in "cleansing" all foreign elements - with such results as I gave some examples of...So if hindi develops in a direction where you find a lot of young men referring to their alma mater as "Bharatiya Praudyogiki/Prabandhan Sansthan", or their travels in "lauh path gamini" - well good for you! But as of now, that is not how it is happening, so trying to forcibly "cleanse" is a bit stupid...

Above all, the argument has been lost for those advocating belaboured "cleansing" - they lost it 40 years ago on the political side (a slightly different battle)..they have lost it in the syntax of popular idiom - represented by the mass media and bollywood...they have lost it in our campuses...they have lost it in the idiom of successive geneerations of elite writers in hindi - from PRemchand to PRasoon Joshi...Invoking some idealised "rural India syntax" is a red herring ...

RajeshA wrote:Nobody learns an Indian language when one needs to deal with Indians for business or travel or politics or whatever. English suffices. Does that not make India the odd one out amongst the world powers?

Not at all...China isnt proficient enough in English not for lack of trying - it spends billions on the effort..Our ability to assimilate english is a HUGE competitive advantage - both economically as well as in terms of its impact on our languages..BTW, all EU business compulsarily happens in english, and all "business" in Europe is in English, including in Frankfurt and Geneva...

RajeshA wrote:If every adult in the world knows that cigarette smoking can be injurious to health, why have those statutory warnings on the cigarettes?! Why would law require those warnings? Are those not in public interest?

And basically what I mentioned in those statutory warnings regarding Christian schools, can you deny that

Wow, as I said, a bit like - all Jew establishments should be marked out as Juden, errr...And yes, generations of students have graduated out of christian schools, doctors from christian medical colleges - one hasnt seen any great upsurge in proselytisation of the urban middle class into christianity..

Finally, we have confidence that a Tata Motors can compete and win against General Motors in the marketplace...In the process, Tata Motors can also collaborate with Cummins (another US company) for engines, and Fiat for design, and help Fiat market its own cars - all the while not failing to come up with a path-breaking Nano...all the whle, Fiat and GM are engaged in a fierce competition for marketshare wioth TM...So entry and flourishing of GM or Cummins or Fiat) is not "destroying" Indian economy...The same goes for other aspects of our engagement...

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Apr 2011 21:12

somnath wrote:I am simply pointing out what you and others have opined, ie, any "pollution" doen by mass media/literature etc needs to be immediately rectified, is against republican values and against the values of India...Soem have even gone to the length of defining it as a national security imperative - so the state must intervene in case vox pop does not conform...Of course, the academia takes great pride in "cleansing" all foreign elements - with such results as I gave some examples of...So if hindi develops in a direction where you find a lot of young men referring to their alma mater as "Bharatiya Praudyogiki/Prabandhan Sansthan", or their travels in "lauh path gamini" - well good for you! But as of now, that is not how it is happening, so trying to forcibly "cleanse" is a bit stupid..

Can you name the specific posters who have advocated penalties based on usage of language ? I presume that is what you mean by 'forcible cleansing'?

Alternatively- by 'forcible cleansing', are you referring to folks who prefer to use Sanskritized Hindi rather than Urdu ?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Apr 2011 22:06

Arjun ji,
You are arguing with an uber-pseudo-secularist for whom any counterexample that does not support his pseudo-secularist agenda is "out of context", only they are "scholars" whose works he can selectively quote to support his own agenda - and all other academics who does not provide ammunition for his personal tirades [ he can never write down an argument or counterpoint without trying to denigrate and without proof the poster whose words he does not like!] are "false" academics.

So the only "academics" in India all reside in DU - with icons like a certain history "prof" pushed here whose own works were quoted in counter here to show the degree of academic skull-duggery that has been supported as "academics" by pseudo-secularist regimes in India.

It appears that he is not interested in looking at alternative viewpoints and provide impersonal counter-logic, because he cannot provide any, and most of his googled or wiki-d references are such that sometimes in his overzealous defense of his centre-left ideological "masters" he does not even read what absurdities lie within - like total immigrant Indian population in a certain Gulf country remained constant for 10 years! He will remain deliberately vague and never come to grips with details, so that he can escape his arguments. But what he is consistent in is however - a sneering and arrogant declaration about how others do not have his masterful monopoly of Queen's English or match his comprehension skills, and always a personal denigration and declaration of how others do not have the "qualification" to "understand" what his exalted words are about.

The methodology is very very typical of a certain type of political training and exposure that is used by people with very superficial knowledge in any subject and who try to appear as authorities on everything under the sun using their immediate shallow grip on some professional domain. He has proved that he is from an urban-dhimmi class, one who hates and looks at the "rural" with supreme contempt, and who tries to pass off his own narrow opportunistic social-class pushed world-view as the reality of India. That almost surely pins down origins in a particular class [some urban professionals hereditarily used to lick and mimic whichever boots are in power] and community [some Hindu forward caste with delusions of superiority by birth] and perhaps even region [Bengal is a possibility or say migrants from there to other urban dhimmi areas], with possible strong hereditary detachment from people of "lower birth" - such as in contemptible "remote rural"areas!

He will blindly push for his centre-left ideological inclination and no matter what you argue or logically put forward, he will not engage in a proper debate, because he is not interested in really testing his own dogma. He seeks to establish or defend the political line he is "remotely" or directly connected to - and hence he cannot afford to even use whatever intelligence still left through the dogma - to debate logically.

So, would you consider whether it is better to ignore his agenda and stop responding? You cannot hope to go anywhere concrete with someone who has only superficial knowledge and covers for it with overt persona aggression.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Apr 2011 22:16

Arjun wrote: I said this before - each passing decade has more India/Persian/Arabic words included in the official English lexicon - does that create problems or does it strengthen English's position as the lingua franca...
The key question is what percentage of the English lexicon is comprised of Persian / Arabic origin words or words originating from a specific non-Western geography ? This percentage will NEVER cross a low threshold. The day it does cross the threshold - you can say that soft power has passed on from the West to whichever geography is dominant in terms of originating words. That day would mark the end of Western cultural domination of the planet.

Good one. Indians dont want to be internationalists and promoting other languages from other culture. English is used only because we have willingly adopted it and govt is spending money >$50B to spread English inside India.
If some Indians want to be internationalists they can do it but do not expect all Indians to follow them and they cannot force all Indians to follow them. This is not about Indian values. That is a BS argument

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Apr 2011 22:23

RajeshA wrote:
One can "confidently" deal with another country, only if one has taken precautions that the other would not be able to screw you!

Confidence to interact comes from confidence in one's defenses. Mindless rush into someplace is hardly confidence.

Nobody and absolutely nobody here on BRF has said we should not deal with the West or China or whosoever! But somehow you wish to give that impression!

Also nobody has said that all actions of West/USA/China viz-a-viz India are to destroy India. But you have to prove that no action of the USA is not to destroy India! Because otherwise, what's wrong with caution!

Another poster was trying to push Bank of A. Indians hardly know what these banks have been doing for 100 years and these things are never published for Indians. US information about their economy is hardly publsihed inside India and how can Indians really understand what is doing business with US

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 Apr 2011 03:44

somnath ji,

responded here in Link Language for India Thread!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Apr 2011 06:38

Arjun wrote:Can you name the specific posters who have advocated penalties based on usage of language ? I presume that is what you mean by 'forcible cleansing'?

dont know about "penalties", but there are numerous posts from various posters on the responsibility of the govt in ensuring a certain "Indic" (I reckon their version of what is "Indic") language is perpetuated in the country, taking cue from similar efforts by the Peshwas in the 1600s or some such...some others of course have advocated proscribing of TV channels presenting in "uncleansed hindi", the more "philosophical" posters of course have taken great pride in a belaboured replacement of all "foreign" words in their syntax and the repsonsibility of the state in ensuring the same for society..

Really, I can go and dig out (seems across multiple threads now) each post of such type - but really dont see the use of a slanging game, or get on to asking people proof for claims of "50 billion dollars being spent on spread of English"...And the issue of language is a bit moot in the overall topic of South Asian cooperative architectures - its a pretty minor sideshow to that, so I wouldnt want to "belabour" upon it myself..