China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 13 Apr 2011 11:28

Singha wrote:the varyag is a wider ship, the length is nearly the same. but more than that the varyag was designed and built from day1 as a carrier (albeit with granit silos under deck), so internally it will have larger hanger spaces and need no mods to make it a 'proper' carrier

So does that explain why wiki says it can carry 26 fixed-wing aircraft to Vik's 16 ? But I guess the real important thing is how short the launch cycle and retrieval can be made.

Don · Post by **Don** » 13 Apr 2011 11:46

Aditya G wrote:Everybody and their uncle is swooning over PRC's 'restoration' of the Varyag and how well it has been done while there are a 1000 detractors over INS Vikramaditya.

It is an interesting comparison really, of the Varyag vs Gorshkov acquisition. While the former is more of an restoration of an unfinished ship to full/reduced spec, the latter is the complete overhaul and remodeling of a former sea going warship. Which is a better ship?

Who took more risk? On one hand China did the project at home presumably withminimum OEM support while on the other hand India gave the full contract to builders. Who is getting a better deal?

I cant help thinking that the controlled leaks give PRC a lead in image and PR control viz-a-viz India which ends up with only negative press.

Varyag was purchased at an auction for $ 200 millions. Fitting it domestically will also give them some experience in building their own carrier in the future. The Gorshkov acquisition on the other hand have the Russian milking it for billions of dollars.......

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 13 Apr 2011 12:25

This ship will be used primarily for training purposes and for germinating the J-15 which is a clone of Su-33. But none of these clones will go anywhere without a reliable engine ...

[ aside: russkis are still confident of securing a 50 strong Su-33 order]

I don't expect any great operational tempo from this ship given what we have seen from the Kuznetsov. The Chinese know that the design itself has some inherent limitation which simply can't be overcome.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Apr 2011 13:43

bottomline is : without steam catapults to hurl F18/Rafale let alone Su33 sized fighters, the airwing suffers limitations. and without organic E-2D platforms critical weakness in operating outside shore based AWACS cover. Varyag has the space but suffers from these two. Vik has these two weakness + lack of space. IAC-1 has these two weak points but adequate space.

CDG and QE2 have/will plug these two points and are far superior operationally.

these are the two main gaps the French identified and plugged on CDG via direct purchase, even going to extent of making CDG 4m longer to allow E-2 ops. the third leg - Rafale and naval helicopters they already had.

Russia doesnt have steam catapult and no incentive to develop one until she starts building a couple of new carriers
Russia does not have anything like the E2 and no incentive to develop one.
Rus and Ukraine will be happy to sell the original designs of Kuznetsov class for a fee but cannot do anything about the two drawbacks...

I think we need to make a reasoned choice and go the same way french went - sign up with Unkil for these two items (EM cats and E2) for IAC-2 onward. too costly and risky to go it alone there.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 13 Apr 2011 20:02

Well Chicom will have to be really daft if it simply tries to build improved Kuznetsovs.

No sirree, I think given their close ties to the Ukrainians it's something based on the never completed 80,000 tonne+ Ulyanovsk that they will try to produce. at least for the two nuke powered ones that they plan to build.

This had a sizeable airwing and was set to host a Soviet equivalent of the E-2 like the Yak-44.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Apr 2011 20:50

What the Chinese have done and are doing is no small feat.

However, all said and done, they still have to go through years of practicing how to operate such ships AND will take some more time to start design on their own designs. Just part of the process.

I would think they would get up-to-speed around 2020-25ish. IF they decide on newer techs, then it could be much longer.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Apr 2011 20:51

my guess is they will build a Varyag clone first to reduce risk, gain confidence and develop the supplier network both internally and in Ukr/Rus.

then move on to 80-90kt Ulyanovsk sized design which may be in collab with Nikolayev design shop or Sevmash. to justify the huge price tag it will need to field a top notch naval fighter, awacs and high sortie rates via proper steam cats or EM cats.

or they might decide to build 3 of the varyag class as a more pragmatic way forward and swallow the H&D issue for a couple decades more until they have more control over the technology aspects.

one thing is sure - they have massive shipbuilding capacity, no limit will be put on $$ spent and they will build whatever they build FAST. they would be keeping 3-4 carrier construction going in parallel at various stages to keep the pipeline full.

another area of heavy activity could be Mistral sized Amphib ships.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Apr 2011 21:01

Building vs. operations.

That is the topic.

I am not too sure that they can pay to learn ops FAST. Build, yes. Ops ............. that should take time.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Apr 2011 21:33

India and China set to resume defence exchanges

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Apr 2011 00:58

With regards to AEW aircrat, IMHO India is much better placed China. Thanks to India's unique peninsular shape that thrusts into the Hind Mahasagar and dispersed Island Territories - we have capability to place land based AEW aircraft that can support our operations. Then P-8 can also provide minimum radar cover with airborne strike capability. Ka-31 has been acquired for some ship based capability which should suffice. E-2 is not essential for us unlike US/NATO.

ManishH wrote:
Singha wrote:the varyag is a wider ship, the length is nearly the same. but more than that the varyag was designed and built from day1 as a carrier (albeit with granit silos under deck), so internally it will have larger hanger spaces and need no mods to make it a 'proper' carrier
So does that explain why wiki says it can carry 26 fixed-wing aircraft to Vik's 16 ? But I guess the real important thing is how short the launch cycle and retrieval can be made.

In theory Vikramaditya is at disadvantage due to its deck lift being located in the centre of deck - unlike other 'proper' carriers.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Apr 2011 01:31

Singha: Sent You a PM. Please check.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Apr 2011 08:39

If you have time to kill check this out:

http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/4302.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2011 09:21

impressive. Ulsoor lake could use one.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Apr 2011 09:29

Outsource the project to China!!

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 14 Apr 2011 09:46

lol, its a building (Military Education Center) near Shanghai

clicky
http://www.bobhenneman.info/china.htm

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 17 Apr 2011 22:28

J-20 closeup front shots.

J20 closeup 1
J20 closeup 2
J20 closeup 3

khwaja · Post by **khwaja** » 18 Apr 2011 00:10

A report on China's revival of the Silk Route from cutting through Central Asia and into Europe...

http://www.dailypioneer.com/332355/Chin ... again.html

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Apr 2011 09:39

khwaja wrote:A report on China's revival of the Silk Route from cutting through Central Asia and into Europe...

http://www.dailypioneer.com/332355/Chin ... again.html

China is only filling in a temporary gap due to vacuum created with fall of Soviet Union and the economic depression. In next ten years, you can see, rest of the world fighting back for a piece of action.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 18 Apr 2011 10:53

I remember when le clem was on its way to India to be scrapped enough people murmurred about refurbishing the le clem including some naval officers to get hands on experience on carriers. Even though the big difference between the Varyag story and le clem was the Varyag had never sailed, the final nail in the coffin of those arguments for getting le clem was that the next aircraft carrier was destined to be out of sync of our aircraft carrier strategy i.e. we build and learn from the ground up.

To understand this better, imagine we purchased the Varyag or Gorshkov to modify to our purposes. Don't you think that would have led to a serious dilution of focus in the aircraft carrier making tent, not to mention resources of any type you can imagine. Are we sending our best to scrap paint, apply primer, strip wires OR are we sending our best to cut steel, think about design from day one.

China has a different strategy and I do not say its wrong. They have been in the business of acquiring 2nd hand aircraft carriers from day one to get the ship building experience. I believe their first acquisition was an Australian aircraft carrier in the 50s. Since then they have accumulated a 6 or 7 aircraft carriers if I am not too far off the mark. And as far as I know the Chinese have ever cut steel for their aircraft carrier till now. Our strategy was to buy outright and sail it till we accumulate enough expertise to build one.

Now I must say this subject is really tantalising ... the subject of Varyag vs Vik. I wish we had a thread entirely that thrashed our 1 vs the other.
Sortie Rates
Aircraft effectiveness.
No Catapaults etc etc
Lift Locations
Weapons
Radars
Ammo carried
Bunker Fuel carried etc

anyone care to indulge ?

Also someone mentioned that Russians were on the verge of selling 50 Su-33s to China. I believe that may not happen. The Chinese have flown the Su-33 clone off mock decks and last not least the Russian Navy is thinking of switching to Mig-29 instead of Su-33. Citing that production plant has notified the govt that if enough orders were not recieved, the plan would become non-viable and therefore closedown.

Without catapaults Su-33s are a bit of a pain... actually anything is a pain without a catapault. I so hope the last of the IAC has some sort of catapaults. It increases the payload by so much and the Indian Navy had the capability which we lost after acquiring Harriers.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Apr 2011 11:11

India and china have inverse methodology wrt to carriers and nuke subs. China kept building nuke subs (even though its doubted if they submerged much) and kept them operational. India twiddled thumb and finally made it at the time Chinese brought out some partially credible nuclear subs in operation.

On A/C carrier, India began operating it. Chinese twiddled thumb. Finally Chinese will cut their steel and bring out an A/C (forecast) as soon as IAC will hit water.

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 18 Apr 2011 12:31

J-20 on the sky

J-20 from the back

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 18 Apr 2011 12:59

nice photos ashi, keep them coming.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 18 Apr 2011 15:05

ashi wrote:J-20 on the sky

J-20 from the back

ashi ...anyone ?

what are the engines in that aircraft ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Apr 2011 16:15

I have a speculation. Salut gave the Chinese some improved engine after they lost put to the FGFA deal. Salut has been traditionally supplying to China. let us see if this is true in future. The engine is AL-31F, series 42 M1 engine.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 18 Apr 2011 16:16

Whats that yellow thing on the top?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Apr 2011 18:15

Yo!
The back end of the J-20 seems to have been copied from the MCA model on display at Aero India!

krishnan wrote:Whats that yellow thing on the top?

Air brake(flap / cover) with an Air Intake (yellow thingie).
That air intake is there to prevent FOD damage when the plane lands. While landing the air brake with deploy, and the air intake will shift to the top of the plane from the two sides.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Apr 2011 19:30

seems to be 4 guys outside the fence around 20 meters away openly taking photos.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 18 Apr 2011 19:31

Is it me or do you think those guys look like a F1 pit crew ?

Wait wait ... they look bad ass

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Apr 2011 19:41

Singha wrote:seems to be 4 guys outside the fence around 20 meters away openly taking photos.

Yes yes - but see how things went quiet after that flight? Have people stopped going on that public road from which they were taking pics a couple of months ago? No news at all. Now suddenly we bring up the topic and pictures mysteriously appear.

But unless I see a new video - it has not flown again..

Ya allah - J-20 has got to have the ugliest open undercarriage doors I have seen.

Don · Post by **Don** » 18 Apr 2011 20:02

Gagan wrote:Yo!
The back end of the J-20 seems to have been copied from the MCA model on display at Aero India!

krishnan wrote:Whats that yellow thing on the top?
Air brake(flap / cover) with an Air Intake (yellow thingie).
That air intake is there to prevent FOD damage when the plane lands. While landing the air brake with deploy, and the air intake will shift to the top of the plane from the two sides.

There you go, The J-20 is nothing more than a copy of the MCA.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Apr 2011 03:48

China is only filling in a temporary gap due to vacuum created with fall of Soviet Union and the economic depression. In next ten years, you can see, rest of the world fighting back for a piece of action.

Perhaps. If the drunk can wake up.

China has got a foot (not a toe) in. But thankfully she is still commie. It takes time for that lizard to change colors.

The back end of the J-20 seems to have been copied from the MCA model on display at Aero India!

which model? Besides this one actually flies. Granted not much more than that.

J-20 has got to have the ugliest open undercarriage doors I have seen.

Shiv ji,

It is a prototype. Still. Actually a pre prototype.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Apr 2011 03:54

but see how things went quiet after that flight?

Guess: They had to return the borrowed engines?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 19 Apr 2011 08:48

Is it what I think it is?

they just painted the original engine which we saw in the start of of J 20 drama to show they have a new indigenous engine!!

And what is this paint chip on the tail.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Apr 2011 09:43

Sid wrote: And what is this paint chip on the tail.

Odd. Pakistan is not involved in this project I think.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 19 Apr 2011 11:13

^^^
It will be. soon enough it will be. Maybe on friendship prices or on market prices, but we will see this fighter facing us on our western borders too.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Apr 2011 13:45

Christopher Sidor wrote:^^^
It will be. soon enough it will be. Maybe on friendship prices or on market prices, but we will see this fighter facing us on our western borders too.

It certainly won't have chipped paint after Pakistan gets involved. Colors may vary.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 19 Apr 2011 19:03

Report: China stealth fighter makes second test flight

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 Apr 2011 04:40

China strategically coy about carrier, stealth fighters

On the golf course-strewn Sanya island in Hainan, Chinese tycoons joke that they have a nuclear submarine to protect their wealth. This summer, China's first aircraft carrier is likely to join the warships on this southern coast. In southwest Chengdu, China's J-20 stealth fighter jet is reportedly taking off on its second test flights.
:
"Hainan is now seen as China's unsinkable aircraft carrier in the South China Sea,'' China expert Mohan Malik told HT from Honolulu. "It could also be the home port for China's aircraft carrier currently under construction. Sanya is where the largest submarine base is being built and it will play an important role in China's maritime strategy in the Indian Ocean aimed at protecting its sea lanes of communication."

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 20 Apr 2011 14:10

If one looks at Hainan, then one is stuck with the similarity to Crimea of Soviet Union/Russia. Just as Crimea serves as a base of the russian black sea fleet and also allows Russia to dominate the black sea, Hainan might allow China to one day dominate the South China sea.

There is one crucial difference though. Black Sea is enclosed on all sides and has a slender outlet to the med via Istanbul/Constantinople. The Med also has a slender outlet to the Atlantic through the Gibraltar. So both these seas, Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea are basically enclosed seas. South China sea is not. It has a 250 km long strait between Taiwan and Philippines which gives it access to the deeper Western Pacific. On the west it is linked with Indian ocean via the Malacca straits and the Java Sea. Domination of South China sea also allows china to dominate three of its vital neighbors, Vietnam, Philippines and Malaysia.

With the development of Hainan as a port, from where Chinese naval vessels will flow to the Indian Ocean, India should look at alternatives like the Haiphong and Cam Ranh Bay port in Vietnam from where our naval and intelligence can be stationed. Haiphong port is way to close to China and unlike Cam Ranh Bay, it is not one of the finest deep water ports of south east asia.