Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Apr 2011 18:28

Kailash wrote:Pakistan tests nuclear capable, short-range missile

Pakistan on Tuesday claimed to have successfully conducted the first flight test of the newly developed Short Range Surface-to-Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile `Hatf IX’ (NASR). Viewed by some strategic analysts as Pakistan’s answer to India’s Cold Start Doctrine, NASR has a range of 60 km and ``shoot-and-scoot’’ nuclear delivery capability.

Announcing the test, the Inter Services Public Relations said the quick response system of NASR addresses the need to deter evolving threats. Addressing the gathering at the undisclosed site of the test, Director General of the Strategic Plans Division Khalid Ahmed Kidwai said the successful flight marked an important milestone in consolidating Pakistan’s strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum.

Further, Lt. Gen (retd) Kidwai pointed out that in the hierarchy of military operations, the NASR Weapon System provided Pakistan with short range missile capability in addition to the already available medium and long range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles in its inventory.

Welcoming the test, security analyst, Shireen Mazari, said in a statement that now Pakistan has acquired tactical nuclear capability with a low yield that can be used in the battlefield. ``It will act as a deterrent against use of mechanised conventional land forces. This was essential in the wake of India’s adventurist war-fighting doctrine formulations which envisaged the use of rapid deployment of armed brigades and divisions in surprise and rapid attacks.’’

Referring to India’s Cold Start Doctrine, Ms. Mazari added: ``India has always felt that Pakistan had a loophole in terms of lacking short range battlefield nuclear weapons, which it could exploit on the assumption that it made little sense for Pakistan to respond to such conventional attacks with strategic nuclear weapons. With NASR, Pakistan has plugged that loophole. Indian dreams of a limited war against Pakistan through its Cold Start strategy have been laid to rest. This will allow for a reassertion of a stable nuclear deterrence in the region.’’

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 19 Apr 2011 18:45

Multi tube mobile battlefield nuclear weapon Hatf IX (NASR)

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Apr 2011 19:13

Looks nothing better than an MLRS, its like claiming Smerch and Pinaka are your Nuke delivery Platforms.

Chinese must have donated a few MLRS launchers and Paki Generals are showing off thier MLRS system.

jai · Post by **jai** » 19 Apr 2011 19:35

SSridhar wrote:
Kailash wrote:Pakistan tests nuclear capable, short-range missile
More info on the Hatf-IX from The Hindu
NASR has a range of 60 km and ``shoot-and-scoot’’ nuclear delivery capability.

Referring to India’s Cold Start Doctrine, Ms. Mazari added: Indian dreams of a limited war against Pakistan through its Cold Start strategy have been laid to rest.[/b] This will allow for a reassertion of a stable nuclear deterrence in the region.’’

Looks like they will create nuclear tipped rifle bullets next. These guys redefine Lunacy

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 19 Apr 2011 19:36

Aditya_V wrote:Looks nothing better than an MLRS, its like claiming Smerch and Pinaka are your Nuke delivery Platforms.

Chinese must have donated a few MLRS launchers and Paki Generals are showing off thier MLRS system.

Thats the the kind of "strategic genius" that has made BR posters the mirror image of the deff und dumb.

Look closely at whats emerging from the tube. That is neither a Smerch nor a Pinaka lookalike.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Apr 2011 19:41

SureshP wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Looks nothing better than an MLRS, its like claiming Smerch and Pinaka are your Nuke delivery Platforms.

Chinese must have donated a few MLRS launchers and Paki Generals are showing off thier MLRS system.

Thats the the kind of "strategic genius" that has made BR posters the mirror image of the deff und dumb.

Look closely at whats emerging from the tube. That is neither a Smerch nor a Pinaka lookalike.

Ok looks like the American MLRS, point here is it is more of Long range Artillery (and yes small Nukes were kept in Artillery shells in the Cold war and possible like Nuke capable

Akash), but it is not the game changer it is claimed to be and Pakistan does not have MIC to build it.

Thanks for complimenting me and likening me to Def and Dumb. Feel honured.

For the record, this how what comes out of Pinaka and Smerch look like

and one more hint, NASR is called Multitube launcher

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Apr 2011 20:00

The range and looks are A100-ish, which is a 10 tube 300mm system with a range of about 120 Km.
IIRC the chinese have been working on a 4 missile MLRS.
IF this is that 4 tube MLRS and is wider in diameter, then the pakistanis are understating its range.

60Kms is something that a Pinaka type MLRS would do, this looks bigger.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Apr 2011 20:19

300 mm diameter? Putting a nuke in a 300 mm diameter tube ain't easy AFAIK. The Americans abandoned their 220 mm nuclear tipped shell because the people firing the nuke would be too close to the fallout. But that was a Pu device.

I doubt if an implosion type nuke can be developed using Uranium and still retain a diameter less than 30 cm. The thickness of conventional explosive and cladding would make it bigger. Again - I wonder if a gun type Uranium bomb would be accommodated in a 300 mm diameter tube? I doubt it.

I think this missile test and the rhetoric about cold start shows the takleef that cold start is causing and this is an attempt to reassure mano Abdul that al iz vel.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2011 20:25

it looks definitely as big as a smerch rocket. a ATACMS type 4-shot system would have a fatter missile...does not seem to be that.

there is no doubt ofcourse that eventually such weapons too - infact anything good the chinese come up with - will be fielded by Pak army.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Apr 2011 20:54

This is defenitely not a 300mm system.
The pakistanis can't make a 300mm fittable nuke. The chinese probably could.

Two possibilities:
1. Pakistani Dork Media: Just like DDM asking DRDO chief if Nag, Akash, Pinaka are N capable. But this is unlikely in pakistan, where ISPR literally hands out what the media has to print, and any deviation from that means a midnight knock on the door by the ISI-walas.
2. This is a much thicker diameter system, and that might be N capable.
Maybe a two, three or a four missile system.
I said 4 missile tube launcher because the chinese were working on it. Saw a representation of that on a youtube fan video.

What is interesting is that the 300mm A-100 and Smerch rockets have 90-120Km odd ranges.
This being a much thicker system, one would expect it to have a better range.

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Apr 2011 20:55

Gagan wrote: 60Kms is something that a Pinaka type MLRS would do, this looks bigger.

Or they have had to increase the payload to cram in stuff for terminal guidance.

Of all the Chipanda weapons sales to TSP the two which stand out to me are RAA#D and BABUR (We know about the HATFs, Dongs and the M-11s); there is not much info on those on the www; obviously Unkil will have a nice pdf stashed in some dark corner in DC.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Apr 2011 20:59

Perhaps a DU tip it could be.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Apr 2011 21:00

The Chinese had developed a 400mm system as part of the WS-1 and later WS-2 series of rockets.
The WS-1B was one with a range of 60-180Kms and was 400mm. Will post pictures from google chacha.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Apr 2011 21:08

The Pakistanis had procured a few AR-1A systems from the chinese

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/ar1a.htm
300 mm system with 10 tubes.
200Kg warhead with 120 Km range.
The chinese developed this during the 90s but it wasn't inducted into chinese military service. It was offered for export only.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Apr 2011 21:13

^^ Isn't this the same system as the HATF-IX pic shown above, except for the "NASR" wordings

( atleast the TELAR)?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2011 21:25

the TELAR is same but NASR is different...note the lone vertical jack and boxy tubes. could be some othe rocket but of same WS-x family.

this kind of weapon could be used to attack area targets like known supply camps, railway stations, wagon marshalling yards, any large industry, power plants, POL storage tanks...

being shoot n scoot they will be able to position quite close to frontline, fire away and relocate for next mission.

my guess for NASR is 4 fat rockets in a single row.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Apr 2011 21:38

Type 83 MLRS
http://www.military-today.com/artillery ... 3_mlrs.htm

The chinese developed this during the 80s, and it saw very limited service. Its export version was called WM-40
This was 4 tube, 214mm, 134Kg warhead, 40 Km range.

The chinese and pakistanis would have modified this system, and put it on top of the new TELAR and viola Nasr is born.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2011 21:42

but what special utility could be served that existing WS-x could not meet?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Apr 2011 22:02

Singha wrote:but what special utility could be served that existing WS-x could not meet?

H&D, thats somthing very important by naming it HATF XX, probably heavier warhead and better accuracy perhaps.

Anyways Suresh P after labelling my intelligence to the levels of Pakis has disappeared, probably thought MLRS would come out like a Artillery Shell.

satya · Post by **satya** » 19 Apr 2011 22:20

If its related to nuke delivery then its last resort to protect crore commanders HQs aage mat ana warna goli chal jayegi

. From an illogical/ TSPian PoV too doesn't make sense to use it against IA's IBG , for nuke usage will be = crossing laxman rekha and response to Beijing tak sunao dega in same but heavier jhapad .

But given Kiyani-Pasha's falling TRP ratings and TSPians ultimate gud nite sleep blanket of atam bumb , it makes sense to say abduls we have a new nuke delivery system to neutralize IA's cold start again it might buy them some respite and give TSP abduls their atam bumb wala kambal tht they forgot now they can even dream of it against Unkil as well after all TSPians are very gud truck drivers ask Arabs arre ek truck hi to leke jana hei aur bas button dabana hei bismillah karen aur unkil bye bye its more of a Unkil's headache than ours

.

But wht stands out in all this is TSPA's repeated failure to find a solution to Cold Start neither they nor their panda master seems to have come up . Its been wht 7+ yrs since we heard for first time about cold start and everything TSPA had done since then been announced their ultimate Cold Start anti virus errr deterrence only to be taken off shelf with a new edition giving 400% guranteed defense ?

Hmm handi main gost to nahin hei yeh to pakka hei to fir kya hei ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Apr 2011 22:25

US had such short range 'battle field' missiles and even a mortar! Maybe the TSP is really becoming Western.

US gave them up as they were more like last ditch weapons and not very morale boosting.

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 20 Apr 2011 00:06

Aditya_V wrote:
Singha wrote:but what special utility could be served that existing WS-x could not meet?
H&D, thats somthing very important by naming it HATF XX, probably heavier warhead and better accuracy perhaps.

Anyways Suresh P after labelling my intelligence to the levels of Pakis has disappeared, probably thought MLRS would come out like a Artillery Shell.

No. I am here, but then as you say what would I know, I only worked for Thales UK from 87-98. Do read up on what they work on. Byeee.

The TELAR carries 2 missiles not four

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/Videos.aspx?ID=803

That should lead to a better estimation of the diameter

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Apr 2011 00:53

A measurement analysis of the picture gives me some approximate figures:

The rocket dimensions approximately are:
Diameter: 360-376mm
Length: 6.5 meters

Fairly acceptable figures and within the ballpark of similar systems.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Apr 2011 01:20

Screen Grabs and you tube videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyDX_gEl7Ak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNy9RzHeIg

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Apr 2011 03:10

When will they name something after Mubarak?

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Apr 2011 03:45

Going by the recent trends in MLRS most of them have some sort of rudimentary inertial guidance (GMLRS, W-2B and new SMERCH variants ) but at the end of the day they are all MLRS albeit guided. At this moment with a stated range of 60km and just 2 tubes this chipanda crap does not provide the stand off advantage which tactical field missiles are supposed to provide (60km is pretty much in the ballpark of conventional Arty with base bleed rounds).

Ramin · Post by **Ramin** » 20 Apr 2011 04:55

Havelsan exports 1st electronic warfare test & training range to Pakistan

Pakistan’s Electronic Warfare Test and Training Range (EWTTR) ceremony was conducted on January 6, 2011, Turkish defence company Havelsan reported in an electronic press release on Wednesday.

Ceremony took place in the presence of Pakistan Air Force Commander Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman, Deputy Commander of Pakistan Air Force Air Marshall Muhammad Hassan, Undersecretary of Turkish Defense Industry Murad Bayar, General Manager of Turkish Armed Forces Foundation Hayrettin Uzun, HAVELSAN Chairman of the Board Rasim Arslan, Deputy Undersecretary of National Defense Major General Nihat Kökmen, HAVELSAN General Manager Dr. Faruk A. Yarman, Head of International Cooperation of SSM Lütfi Varoğlu and other senior officials in Islamabad, Pakistan.

Havelsan had already delivered the Electronic Warfare Test and Training Range System to Pakistan Air Force earlier in 2010. In July 2010 acceptance tests were successfully completed and the guarantee period was started.

EWTTR provides fully instrumented and integrated, near-real threat environment for all types of Electronic Warfare System Test and Pilot Training. Havelsan provides turn-key, original solutions to all Electronic Warfare Range needs and requirements.

EWTTR has been designed and implemented by Havelsan with no foreign licenses or support acquisition. EWTTR was delivered to the Turkish Airforce in 1999 and succesfully operated by Havelsan.

EWTTR features are :

Various fully instrumented and integrated actual weapons systems,
Various threat emitter simulators,
Entirely modular structures,
All weapon systems in the EWTTR offer the following in real-time : Data Collection, Data Recording, Visualization in 3D environment, Artillery and Missile Simulation,
Various post-flight evaluation reports,
Continuous development capability based on the needs and requirements.

TRDEFENCE

http://www.trdefence.com/2011/01/13/hav ... -pakistan/

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 20 Apr 2011 05:23

Resemblance to Chinese WS2 is purely coincidental?

Ramin · Post by **Ramin** » 20 Apr 2011 05:59

Hi, this article elegantly captures the key points of this new missile system.

Pakistan has test fired the Short Range Surface-to-Surface Multi Tube Ballistic Missile `Hatf IX’ NASR on Tuesday. Hatf IX NASR has a range of 60 kilometers and can carry both tactical nuclear warheads and conventional warheads. Two Hatf IX NASR Ballistic Missiles can be carried by a single transporter erector launcher (TEL).

Hatf IX NASR is a quick response system which has “shoot-and-scoot’’ nuclear delivery capability. Control surfaces behind the nose and at the tail of the Hatf IX NASR help in that improving the missile's aerodynamic lift, stability and maneuverability during its whole flight.

Missile is powered by a high thrust single stage solid propellant rocket motor which allows the NASR missile to accerlate very quickly and maintains a high speed.

Missile appears to using an electro optical homing seeker for terminal guidance to achieve extremely low Circular Error Probable (CEP). CEP is used to measure the accuracy of the missile. CEP is the radius of a circle around the target in which 50% of the warheads aimed at that target will land.

Strategic analysts are calling the Hatf IX NASR as Pakistan’s answer to the Indian Cold Start Doctrine. Test of this missile is considered to be Pakistan’s way of saying that Pakistani scientists have developed the plutonium based tactical nuclear warheads with a low yield. Tactical nuclear warheads can be used by the Pakistan army in the battlefield to deterrent the larger Indian conventional land forces which has in last few years emphasized on the Cold Start Doctrine. Cold Start Doctrine calls for the rapid deployment of Indian armed forces against Pakistan to achieve surprise attacks.

Previously it was thought that Pakistan lacks the tactical nuclear warheads which allowed India to think that it can exploit this weakness and assumed that it will be extremely difficult for the Pakistan to resort to the nuclear weapons in case of Indian conventional attacks.

Test of the Hatf IX’ NASR has not only ended that ambiguity but also effectively ended the Indian day dreams of its hunger for limited war against Pakistan through its Cold Start strategy without raising the possibility of use of Nuclear warheads.

Director General of the Strategic Plans Division Khalid Ahmed Kidwai said the successful test flight of the quick response `Hatf IX’ NASR Ballistic Missile. System is capable of handling the evolving threats and it has consolidated Pakistan’s strategic deterrence capability at all levels of the threat spectrum.

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2011/04/hatf- ... istic.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Apr 2011 06:18

weren't the turks working with PRC on this system ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Apr 2011 06:56

Ramin wrote: Strategic analysts are calling the Hatf IX NASR as Pakistan’s answer to the Indian Cold Start Doctrine. Test of this missile is considered to be Pakistan’s way of saying that Pakistani scientists have developed the plutonium based tactical nuclear warheads with a low yield. Tactical nuclear warheads can be used by the Pakistan army in the battlefield to deterrent the larger Indian conventional land forces which has in last few years emphasized on the Cold Start Doctrine. Cold Start Doctrine calls for the rapid deployment of Indian armed forces against Pakistan to achieve surprise attacks.

Previously it was thought that Pakistan lacks the tactical nuclear warheads which allowed India to think that it can exploit this weakness and assumed that it will be extremely difficult for the Pakistan to resort to the nuclear weapons in case of Indian conventional attacks.

http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2011/04/hatf- ... istic.html

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/N ... #Nfaq4.2.3

The absolute minimum possible mass for a bomb is determined by the smallest critical mass that will produce a significant yield. Since the critical mass for alpha-phase plutonium is 10.5 kg, and an additional 20-25% of mass is needed to make a significant explosion, this implies 13 kg or so. A thin beryllium reflector will reduce this, but the necessary high explosive and packaging will add mass, so the true absolute minimum probably lies in the range of 10-15 kg.

The W54 warhead used in the Davy Crockett had a minimum mass of about 23 kg, and had yields ranging from 10 tons up to 1 kt in various mods (probably achieved by varying the fissile content). The warhead was basically egg-shaped with the minor axis of 27.3 cm and a major axis of 40 cm. The W-54 probably represents a near minimum diameter for a spherical implosion device (the U.S. has conducted tests of a 25.4 cm implosion system however).

The test devices for this design fired in Hardtack Phase II (shots Hamilton and Humboldt on 15 October and 29 October 1958) weighed only 16 kg, impressively close to the minimum mass estimated above. These devices were 28 cm by 30 cm, Humboldt used PBX-9404 as the explosive.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2011 08:42

a road mobile TELAR with tactical nukes is certainly much more survivable and affordable than depending on air dropped delivery when limited AF/airbases will be under 24x7 pressure.

the paltry 60km range for such a huge rocket is surprising though...maybe its powered all through its flight for higher speed as opposed to boost and coast?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Apr 2011 09:44

I think we should make it clear any tactical use of Nukes, crosses the Nuke threshold and will be responded in a disproptinate manner.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 20 Apr 2011 09:52

My 2 cents here:

Pakis are building up an infrastructure for tactical nukes (many bums + mobile launch capability) to scare the Indians and "the international community" that dispersing nukes might escalate risk of nuke-exchange. They hope to sign a ABM treaty in exchange for abandoning tactical nukes methinks.

The 2 primary purposes of Paki nukes -- (1) Preventing Indian from dismembering them like '71 and (2) Preventing India from retaliatory attacks as a response to terror attacks: are already served through their current arsenal, missiles and aircraft delivery systems. Furthermore, this status-quo is being blunted through ABM measures. That is the balance of terror that they want to return to.

Pakis know very well that they cannot do a tactical nuking of Indian spear-heads and expect no response. India is either going to go through a gradual escalation or indulge in a devastating nuke attack. So what use are the tactical nukes?

Disclaimer: Pakis maybe making these tactical nukes to use against their own tribal yahoos or against Afghanistan-backed "people's attacks" in the tribal borderlands.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Apr 2011 10:05

1) They have completely given up on their "superb, highly professional air force" during defense against Cold start? Why do they even need this?

2) These TELARs are huge, easy to track and after a GMTI scan of a 60X60 km area (unless parked amongst appartments), would be the highest value target in the first few hours. So this is going to be used at the very first hour of war. Or so Pakis want us to believe

3) As if a few bums under kidwai's bed spread was not worrying. We have a whole bunch of beards hauling around these very portable bums? Looks like a global issue...

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 20 Apr 2011 10:11

hnairo-golis

As I speculated, these portable bums are to scare everyone. To pile up pressure on India to sign an ABM pact, which India will do for the well being of the world.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Apr 2011 10:13

If they have been succesful at making nukes small enough to fit on something as small as an MRLS rocket, how difficult would it be for the khan to keep track of all of them given the numbers pukes are supposed to be churning them out? Isn't that a point of concern for khan then? A tactical nuke is huge when compared to a dirty bum.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Apr 2011 10:17

Those small nukes will not work and will use up far more fissile material for less bang. I would take this Hatf with nukes with a pinch of salt. Pakistan has nukes. But not on this Hatf thing.

Using tactical nukes against India in a situation where there will be counter value retaliation is pointless. Sooner or later bigger nukes over longer range will be needed - and it is pure speculation to think that a conflict is going to end after 2 Hatfs with nukes are fired off.

This is an echandee demonstration.

If Pakistanis want to show they have nukes they need to do a test that actually registers on seismic monitors. They are welcome to do it in Pakistan or in China.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Apr 2011 10:34

Small multiple bangs will blunt cold start launches. However, IA has this smaller groups which will launch the strikes. It should be in waves and less addressable by the Hatfs. But, it definitely looks like a start where the Pakis can refine their weapon and tactics if home made.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Apr 2011 10:50

chackojoseph wrote:Small multiple bangs will blunt cold start launches. However, IA has this smaller groups which will launch the strikes. It should be in waves and less addressable by the Hatfs. But, it definitely looks like a start where the Pakis can refine their weapon and tactics if home made.

Refining weapon and tactics assumes that India is not going to retaliate as per the words of its own nuclear doctrine. If India is going to retaliate as per its doctrine all this tactical stuff will not work.