Project 75 & Submarine Options

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 17 Mar 2005 12:47

Akula-II's are needed by the IN especially for the following reasons:-

Allows the engineers and staff to retrain on an n-sub before the induction an an ATV, now this is something that they lost touch with after Charlie-II's departure.
Give support to A/C Gorshkov.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Mar 2005 13:47

* Allows the engineers and staff to retrain on an n-sub before the induction an an ATV, now this is something that they lost touch with after Charlie-II's departure.
* Give support to A/C Gorshkov

Yes quite a valid point. We lost the valuable experience of manning a N-sub after the lost of Charlie-2

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 17 Mar 2005 14:16

Austin wrote:Good Analysis Philip , Just adding my 2 cents.

a )

b ) There is a version of Turbofan variant of Exocet underdevelopment think its called Exocet Block-3 which has a range of 180 Km ( probably more ) which could/will arm the Scorpene.

Also there was a Fiber Optic Guided Missile underdevelopment for German Subs , which also had anti-aircraft capability particular for the sub , even one can look in to it for the Scorpene.

This is the POLYPHEN missile. This pregram has been scrapped several months ago

Kersi

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Mar 2005 14:32

Kersi Sir , Goodevening , Long time no see.
yes you are right its Polyphem , I didnt knew it was cancelled , It was a good concept , supposedly it could even take on an ASW Heli , when fired by submerged sub.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Mar 2005 20:06

Talk about throwing a spanner into the works

Court case closed, HDW wants to work with navy

George J · Post by **George J** » 18 Mar 2005 20:21

Rakesh wrote:Talk about throwing a spanner into the works

Court case closed, HDW wants to work with navy

Is it too late for the 212/214 for the IN? Well only the IN can decide that, can it wait for another decade for its sub (say another 2-3 to evaluate them and another 4-5 years to get the first one) vs half that time for the scorpene?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Mar 2005 23:37

IMHO, it is way too late for HDW now to enter the fray. The time it takes for major defence purchases to happen in India....this will take another 7 years at the least. A delay at this stage we cannot do without. Just go in for the Scorpene and the Amur. The correct course of action for the navy to take now is to work with HDW and further improve upon already proven HDW submarine technologies, i.e. ram air expulsion, fuel cells, sonar, etc. Project 77 can be born out of this venture if properly planned. There is a huge submarine market in South Asia and South East Asia --> Indian Shipyards and HDW ought to team up and deliver for IN and foreign customers.

John · Post by **John** » 18 Mar 2005 23:42

Is it too late for the 212/214 for the IN? Well only the IN can decide that, can it wait for another decade for its sub (say another 2-3 to evaluate them and another 4-5 years to get the first one) vs half that time for the scorpene?

There is too much bad blood between the two even if they were all worked out i dont think HDW can beat DCN intl offer. There is some sticky points like tech transfer which the germans wont agree to for sure also unlike DCN they cant really offer a sub launched SSM as part of packagae.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Mar 2005 01:33

SSM or SSM capability?

India has enough access to prior. Without latter, it is no use buying a sub.

Would IN ever think of MKIizing a sub? Granted it would not be as easy as an AC. Just curious.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 19 Mar 2005 02:37

At this point, I think only thing that IN could possibly do is to bring the 4 209s to 214 standard and get a feeler and work out some sort of package to have the same AIP plug in all our subs.. One standard plug. Not Mesma here and russian AIP there and something else on the 209s.

Although Mesma probably has the most output, AIP shows more promise as the technology improves over time... The new AIP plugs pump out 120 KW per plug and that is pretty impressive.

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Mar 2005 14:56

X Post.

Wait for Scorpene may soon be over:

NEW DELHI: A rapidly-emerging gap in India's conventional military capabilities is likely to be plugged soon, with the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) all set to give the green signal to the $2 billion French Scorpene submarine project.

"The Cabinet note and all other procedures required for the deal, hanging fire since 2001, are in place now. Defence minister Pranab Mukherjee has received a detailed briefing on the project. The next CCS meeting, or the one after that, should give it the final clearance," top-level sources said.

The "final approval" for the project, under which at least six Scorpene submarines will be manufactured at Mazagaon Docks in Mumbai, was in fact discussed when French chief of defence staff General Henri Bentegeat came here earlier this month.

French foreign minister Michel Barnier, during a visit in October, had also pushed for an early clearance to the project. Incidentally, the 2005-2006 budget provides around Rs 7,100 crore, out of the Rs 34,375 crore capital outlay, for new acquisitions.

If the project gets the go-ahead now, it will take at least six years for the first Scorpene to be ready for induction. By then, some of the older submarines in the country's underwater fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines will be up for decommissioning. ......................................

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Mar 2005 01:49

cy_baru wrote:At this point, I think only thing that IN could possibly do is to bring the 4 209s to 214 standard and get a feeler and work out some sort of package to have the same AIP plug in all our subs.. One standard plug. Not Mesma here and russian AIP there and something else on the 209s.

Cross Posting from the 'General Naval Discussion' thread;

The IN does not want the French MESMA on the Scorpene, but are rather opting for the fuel cells found on the U212 and U214 Class of submarines. HDW has also proposed an upgrade for the U209s. Please read the last two paragraphs of the link that I have pasted below;

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Shishumar.html

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Mar 2005 02:13

COOL RakMan ..

You da the man ..

Are the french going to work with Siemens to retrofit that in their subs ?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Mar 2005 02:22

No word on that as of yet. But the French MESMA is an absolute no-no.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 23 Mar 2005 03:04

Rakesh wrote:No word on that as of yet. But the French MESMA is an absolute no-no.

Dude, we got to talk this weekend!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Mar 2005 03:07

Rakesh wrote:No word on that as of yet. But the French MESMA is an absolute no-no.

Too much noise eh ??

It has juice .. but comes at a noisy price..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Mar 2005 03:45

Anurag: I got your email. I will reply. Hold on to the phone call. Wait for my email

cy_baru: please email me at one of the email addresses listed in my profile. Thanks.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Mar 2005 04:08

Done ..

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 29 Mar 2005 03:22

A question ..

Have we ever tried to design an diesel/electric sub on our own?? learning from the 209 experience and operating the Kilos.... What are our major weakness??

davidn · Post by **davidn** » 29 Mar 2005 06:11

call me a bit naive, but for things like submarines, what is it that takes so long to evaluate? Have IN officers been driving the things around, or is the whole process based on paper specs and french charisma? I'm thinking the latter, since I can't imagine the Frenchies sending over someone elses Scorpenes for 18 successive rounds of operational user trials (ala. artillery, arjun...) during the tender process.

If it is only a minimal amount of hands on trialling, what's to stop the 214's being actively considered, if the Germans are throwing a lower price and license manufacturing on the table ready to go?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Mar 2005 07:09

have we ever tried to design an diesel/electric sub on our own?? learning from the 209 experience and operating the Kilos.... What are our major weakness??

We did try to design our subs based on the 209-1500(Project-75) , It was suppose to be larger in length and displacement and ability to fire underwater missiles , But coz of the problems associated with the HDW ( banned etc, and lost the skill associated with building the SSK in due course of time ) , the navy thought it was prudent enough to go for another SSK namely the Scorpene get the technology and later on build on it.

The plan is to get 6 Scorpene (Proj-75 ) and 6-8 Amur ( Project-76 ) , with TOT build upon the skill and then design our own submarine , we require about 24 SSK as part of the 30 year sub building plan.

So the final 10- 12 SSK will be an indian design based on the best of East and West has to offer ie Amur + Scorpene.

Marcos · Post by **Marcos** » 23 Apr 2005 00:36

This one is probably a bit more detailed article on the Russian AIP (history not much included), bascically concentrating on the AIP that was developed and thats to be commercialised, with the only problem in sight being the finance.

Russian experience in the development of AIP power plants for Submarines

When ordered by a domestic or foreign customer, the corporation of enterprises headed by the SKBK JSC can design, manufacture and supply a high-performance electrochemical power plant (Fig. 4), boasting power ranging from 100 to 3,000 - 4,000 kW and provided with all the infrastructure required for operation, within 3 to 5 years (depending on the power and energy capacity).

The quote above, is from the article which dates to 1997, which also puts in the bitter fact that, we have indeed wasted considerable time due to the unwanted creeping in or dragging in of the mentality that only west has got an AIP and more so an EG. This all happed with our 'diversification' for none other than the sake of 'diversification'. And i know, there still be many to argue that its not proven etc etc.

As for my plan, I'd say there is no need to waste more time on pursuing an idiotic notion but rather move ahead with the Russian and make the Kristall-27E and later-on (3rd Gen) versions a reality. But for now, the Kristall-27E or its variant so that it becomes the standard plug-in modue for not only Aumr-1650, Amur-950 & Scorpene, but also for the 4 x T-209 subs that we operate. One thing that we need to underline in bold is that, NO more wasting of time pursuing an idiotic notion.

I've combined the text and image from the above article for easy reading/viewing. So if u guys want, check it out.

CG Fuel Cell Module
EG module

Igorr,

I think, if we speak about strong enemy, The only chance for a submarine to die with some results at least – is to steal up as close as possible (10-20 km) and launch salvo of highly supersonic missiles with torpedoes. Even a submarine is going to be destroyed by the counter-attack, she exploit the chance to destroy the enemy at the best.

well, when i was mentioning abt the volume sea denial, i was in particular keeping in mind the Indian theatre and for that what i had in mind was not 10-20 Km, but 100-200km, more so 100+km, so that the opponent don get any chance what so ever from a charging PJ-10.

In my stratergy, the Indian Navy fleet operates atleast 500Km (obviously for keeping the a/c at bay) off the coast with the submerged strike groups at 100-200 km from the opponents battle group such that the after the missile salvo, the Indian subs be able to get cover from the Indian Surface fleet against the airborne ASW assets of the opponets. In addition to this will be the instatnaneous moving-in (Zero hour from the opening of the hatch) of the surface fleet with their own set of salvos to burden the already burdened AD system of the opponents. This will allow the subs to get slippage time and the opponent additional task of taking care of the in-coming surface strike group and their set of salvos.

And for that a grouping like the below wud do -
1-2 x Amurs with 10 x PJ-10 (VLS)
2 x Scorpene/Amur for sanitising the area for the strike team
2 x P-XX with 16 x PJ-10 (VLS) + 48 x VL ADM with atleast 150 Km + Ka-31
4-6 x P-28 with (speculative) 8 x 3M-54E + 8 x 91RTE2 (anti-sub)
1 x replenishment

Now, what i am saying is that the strike sub be as much near to the opponents so that the targets are in the optimum range of its strike missiles (100-200Km) but still under the cover of the Surface fleets AD missiles, so that it can slip w/o having to face an airborne assault. For the underwater threat these subs will depend on the escorting subs firepower and the data from the 6 x ASW/multirole pocket destroyers. Now the above counts to either 10-11 or 12-13 ships in the fleet. Which total up to 120-156 ships, if Indian Navy are to form 12 such fleets, with 3 fleet uder each of the 4 commands.

many may call this as pipedream, which looks like that considering the pathetic strategic outlook and the funding which is based on total lack of the above. But a small number of the above said grouping can definetely be formed or atleast a workable group can be formed to defeat the mightiest of the opponents. Even such a grouping wud go a long way in winning a war without firing a shot, as war is an extension of diplomacy.

That will also show as to Y we Indian's could not achieve any considerable gains from any of the wars that we fough and the pathetic mentality which the media is now using and that have crept up in most dipartments that War can't achieve anything, in the case of Kashmir.

Sudip,

There was some sort of misunderstanding in our earlier posts, but i think, we can carry forward the discussion.

Now, the post that u made earlier with links contradicts ur points. As one link also states that above some speed, the hydrodynamic noise takes over due to which the sub have to prowl slow to keep its stealth. And i don think any sub wud be doing high speed air combat underwater, which means that even for a TT launch of missile, they are destined to have a lower speed launch, even if they can launch it at a higher speed.

That that translate into something ..... as the sub wont be long away from the launch position and any good ASW team wud be able to nail it down. Now, i think this was one of the advantages that u mentioned for a TT launch, But then as is is the case with VLS, TT too have the problem in being that even if it can manage a bit farther away from the launch position, a good ASW team wud be able to pick it. And thats the reason Y I'm banking upon the stratergy that i mentioned above, so that sub can get coverfire from the surface fleet and area sanitisation form escorting subs. This is also bcoz, i don believe in sacrificing my men, if I've even the remotest possiblity of getting them back.

Also, as far as i have info, the Klub can only be launched at a depth of 30-40m which means that the sub will need to come upto that depth to launch it. I don know the case with other missile , so hope u'll put the launch figures for Exocet, Harpoon and TH.

Marcos · Post by **Marcos** » 23 Apr 2005 00:47

John,

Problem with amur its still very much in testing phase and no one wants be guniea pig for a new SSK class IN is probably well aware of all the difficulties Aussies are having with their collins. With scorpion u have atleast chilean and malaysian navies who will be operating scorpion by the time production of it commences in MDL so any problems can be dealt with.

taking Amurs, testing phase or building phase for questing its capablity or realiablity is not fair. If the Collins developed problems, its their problem and not that of Russians, and neither has Chile got any major experience with the Scorpene and Malaysia is yet to get one. Now, when it comes to Russian there is one major questioning that comes to everyone naturally and that is ..... "Its not even with the Russian services or they dont want it" ..... but i fail to see that kind of negative and illogical attitude when it comes to western items. Clearly Double Standards. This thing we saw, in the case of T-90, MiG-29K, Gorshkov & MiG-AT and there will be many other items like that . But then, the French Navy have clearly said NO to the Scorpene, but i rarely see the negative comments like the one thats targeted at Russians coming up in this case.

ragupta,

It appears to be strong arm tactic to favour Amur deal instead of scorpene, whenever Russia see an Indian requirement coming, they put up something on the drawing board to match that specification and arms twist India into purchasing those products.

what a theory man, so if a competitor puts a product and if thats a non-western item, that automatically turns to arms twisting. Its not fair man.

No matter how much we say that we have independent decision making, unless we resist and go with something we want this arm twisting will continue.

Forget about Akula, work on ATV, get scorpene tech and go from there.

sadly for u, our decision making can't be independent, when the major chunk of the decision makers are western oriented.

Yes we had some good deals and technology from Russia that does not mean we should do and say what they want us to do.

And what did Russia want us to do that we did not want to do that have jeoparadized our decesion making far from independent? anything specific with a backup for ur claims w/o the regular western media and their Indian copycats theories?

Russian tech is reaching pak, through china anyways. Russia also sold 40 Mi-17 to pak recently. the rd-33 tech will be in FC-1 etc. If Pak would be a big market Russia could not care less about India's objection, so does France. It is only that Indian market is big enough to ignore Pak. Will they do the same to China no, one thing Russia is not selling everything is that it can be threat to Russia itself, so all this talk about strategic, friendship died down with Soviet Union, now pragmatism and realism defines the deal.

U can't be more wrong abt Russia than what u said abt the market driven Russia. I personally dont believe that Russia wud do anything that will jeoparadize the Indian security and I can stand by that for any length of time, if thats a challenge that u want to put forward to me. But one thing that u need to pray with me is that Russian Jews dont take the reins of Russian from the Russians which nearly happened before Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin came to power.

In the market, China is a compulsion for Russia and arming them is a double edged sword, which the Russian know better. But complusions was that Russia wanted someone to take care of the worlds Bully and India which never had balls politically was not even close to that, and that made sure that supporting China was the only option. This also threw open an oppertunity for the Russian industries to stay afloat even w/o any considerable support from the Russian Govt. Again, the strategic link (which still holds) and the freindship of the Soviet times slipped, because of the two respective Govts. On one side was a Vadoka Unkil with a vision of GRAND auctioning of Russia on his western masters advise and down southeast was another ball less Govt, with an idiot FM, who never knew, which way to move forward with the result now that Videshi babus gets their agents 3 x TIMES CHEAPER than what they got before the economy opened up, which also made sure that the Military budget which was never topped-up, shrink so much so that, Tanks had to be cocconed.

So they never had any option simply coz India cudn't be relied up on for support - militarily or economically or politically, because, in all three departments India is as weak as before, with an economy increasingly being moved toward an American dependent one. Politically, India never had the balls coz the Politicians lack those, due to which India never was a great military power, though some blind patriots fail to recoganize this and go about flag waving. But what u get in return for ignoring this basic fact is that even punny pigs show u the MIDDLE FINGER UP when u send them the list of say 20 wanted terrorist, or when even after begging and begging, u fail to extradite the couple as one of the reason for other partner for doing that is, they have not yet come to terms with what happened in 1962 when they faild to respond to an Indian request Or say the bussinessman that we want for a case to proceed, as they think will harm the Italian Bitch and her Royals and might take away a significant hold that west have got through that link.

Amur is not tested, maybe too small. why did not Russia provide tech for Kilos. if we have them why not setup facilities for Kilo and add more to that than a separate model all together.

first of all, y do u think Amur is too small??...... is it the displacement for Amur-950 or is it that only 17 guys need to man that sub that make u think its too small?? But in displacement, the Amur-1650, even though comparable to Kilos in size is small, bcoz, its a single hull construction unlike the Kilos and other Russian subs, which were double hulled, which increased their displacement considerably.

secondly, have u ever heard of the Indian babus with long term stratergy???.....

If Kilo has vertical launch and all that perhaps use it. it is bigger so it should have bigger space for AIP if one is available, let it integrate AIP in kilo. and lets see how it operates.

No, Kilos, are not bigger, their displacement is higher bcoz of its double hull construction. Now, if their is money to spare, plugging an AIP module for Kilos wud have been good, but it wud be at the cost of its max speed. But then it wud be good enough.

AjayB,

in the news we always hear about the scorpene and neverr about amurs. Which makes me wonder wether it was outright rejected long ago. Or is it still in consideration ( and being russian kept in wraps).

Thats the difference b/n Western and Russian marketing. West are more aggressive where as Russia tries to avoid the publicity - print & visual media- angle of the western marketing. In addition to that is the western vested interest, which have a baseline team to see that Russia don make any more bugs out of weapons sale, which is the only real option to make good amount for a total revival of Russian industries and hence Russia itself. Now, when that happens, u'll find the Russians rolling out hardware for their military in numbers and thats what the west want not to happen.

Now, u guys might as well have heard of the two recent revolution Pink and Orange. right??.... now what the west is doing in their current marketing is that they does it through the media which install in the public's mind that this particular item was to win NATURALLY, but see, its the OTHER one that won, which then snowball into major contraversies etc etc , there by delaying and even might have to do away with what was selected. Now thats the case I'm sure the media is going to take, if MiG-29M/M2 is selected for IAF. Now do u guys rem the earlier case of the T-90s??..... A farmer turned Tank EXPERT ....... well, all were their to point fingers at the Russians, but not a single pathetic $astard ever checked the UPGRADE options that the farmer was mentioning or the vested intrest that was behind the making of a Tank EXPERT, after all, it was the Isrealis, Poles, and the French, who was out to grab the pie of upgrading the T-72, for which the farmer was shouting his support.

And what we lost was - precious time and a proper MKIsation of the T-90. But hope this time around, we go in for the features of the Black Eagle and make it a standard for the earlier T-90s too.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 26 Apr 2005 21:10

There is strong information, that one Amur-1650 submarine is built in Russia for foreign client from 2002. This is information from the plant, but they do not answer what client it is. India? Chine? I cannot see another possibility, and I bet on India, because for China 8 Kilos are build just now.
As I can understand the intention of GoI, the question now is not Amurs or Scorpens but 6 Scopens OR German SMs AND 6 Amurs. It is very rational decision, that I hard to criticize anyway.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 26 Apr 2005 22:41

Marcos,

Very nice rant, long on rhetoric and sentiment but sadly, short on facts.
For example. Deve Gowda, aka the farmer, did not lobby for the evil west against the Russians, but for a Russian T72S upgrade vs purchasing new T90S's. It was Russian Org 1 vs Russian Org 2.. there, not some western conspiracy with the support of the Indian leadership..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Apr 2005 22:52

Okay what about this....

Get 8 and not 6 Scorpenes from France at the 'new' price of $4 billion and change, the French are charging us. Thus the French are pleased and the Indian Navy gets what they want. Agree to a MoU with the French on a new maritime patrol aircraft and dump the P-3C Orion. Also sign the deal with Dassault for 126 M2K-9s.

HDW has agreed to collaborate with the Ruskies and has offered a sub to India, countering the French offer. I say we take up HDW on that offer. The Ruskies are pleased too, as they too get a piece of the pie of the Indian submarine program. Get 8 of these unterseeboots as well...hey after all you don't wanna have all your eggs in one basket

The final 8 subs should be a result of the ToT recieved from the French, German and Russians. I think that adds up to a total of 24 submarines. Isn't that what the Indian Navy wanted anyway - 24 new boats over a 30 year period?

Pradeep · Post by **Pradeep** » 26 Apr 2005 23:08

Get 8 and not 6 Scorpenes from France at the 'new' price of $4 billion and change

All well and good, except, we have to pay for these (capital costs for setting up plants to manufacture), I only hope there is not much variety for the subs except for different classes ( as in SSN, SSK, SSBN), avoids logistics issues and allows customization.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Apr 2005 23:14

We currently operate 3 different sub variants (Foxtrot, Kilo and HDW 209) from two countries (Germany and Russia). The variety still remains the same, in fact reduces - at just two 'conventional' submarine types. With 100% ToT and setting up of production facilities, we ought to able to locally produce spares and other related equipment. This will also enable us to test the Germans and see if they are willing to work with us and play the rules of 'our' game. No ToT offer and we don't buy anything from them.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Apr 2005 23:35

Also...all future subs must be equipped with a fish net, to accommodate our Mallu and Bengali submariners. While sailing under the Arabian Sea, we can catch Bombay Duck (Yum, Yum!) Kingfish (Ooooh Yeah!) Pompfret (I think I am gonna pass out!). Hey we Mallus need our fresh fish, otherwise we tend to get real cranky!

July 24th, 2015: The Captain of INS Kalvari (U214), Commander Rudra Singha, orders to deploy the fish nets as it nears lunch time. Sonar Officer JCage listens in for the nearest school of fish. It’s the middle of summer and the young Pompfrets have all hatched from their eggs. S/O JCage thinks he hears shrimp feeding…but oh wait those are not shrimp…it's the PNS Khalid!!!! Commander Singha yells, "10º down bubble, make your depth 200 feet and go silent!"

The deployed fish nets slow the sub’s descent, but slowly but surely the Kalvari reaches 200 feet. PNS Khalid is 800 meters dead ahead, but their crew is oblivious to the danger behind them. They are in the middle of blowing goats…go figure! The water ram expulsion aboard the Kalvari, gives it a distinct advantage, it can launch torpedoes without using noisy compressed air as found in other subs. The Khalid suddenly does a Crazy Ivan and does a full 180º turn…Commander Singha orders, "Launch tubes one and four!"

Weapons Officer Austin fires tubes one and four and a pair of DM2A4 -- aka Seahake Mod 4 – torpedoes are in the water, before one can say Pakistan Paindabad! The Khalid launches countermeasures, but alas the DM2A4's wake sensors prove to be too much for the Khalid. They strike with deadly precision and there goes the crew, goats and all! S/O JCage yells "Direct Catch!" Commander Singha looks at him puzzled…and then realizes that the Kalvari has just caught her lunch for the afternoon. All in all a regular day aboard the Kalvari!

Marcos · Post by **Marcos** » 26 Apr 2005 23:36

JCage wrote:Marcos,

Very nice rant, long on rhetoric and sentiment but sadly, short on facts.
For example. Deve Gowda, aka the farmer, did not lobby for the evil west against the Russians, but for a Russian T72S upgrade vs purchasing new T90S's. It was Russian Org 1 vs Russian Org 2.. there, not some western conspiracy with the support of the Indian leadership..

well as u say boss ....

but u know what was to happen ... say the farmer (mostly Zzzzzing PM, errrr mean heaby thinking) got it cleared and the T-72 upgrade was to get in....what was the best bet that it wud have been Russian???..... It definetely wud have been pounced upon by the Poles, French and Isrealis.

What that idiot did was to only delay the deal and also hindered the customisation, as that wud have costed more ..and he get another bid deal to make noise.

I wonder, h u guys put so much faith in tyhe western guys and media ....

hey after all you don't wanna have all your eggs in one basket

but except for us, most others put their eggs in one basket and keep it in good condition. But in our case, after the needy period when we needed additional baskets, the trend now is that we are putting eggs in every damn basket. So so that, the eggs might even get tampered with and even fight u when the chicks grow up. So beware.

----
from Igorrs post and other earlier reports , it cud very well be that the amur cud be one for testing for IN (?), as the IN might have choose not to do the testing etc etc in here, like the AIP and others , if at all ..... but I'm very sure that Amur with the PJ-10 capablity is something that IN wud find very hard to leave ... and proobably only enough number of SSN wud prompt the IN to do that which also brings us to the point one that, yes , IN might in the future go in for the Amur, when the finance gets available after the tight yrs of Gorshkov , Scorpene and others ...

BTW, from Austin's post and from that of Igorrs its somewhat stating that there wud be Amur and Scorpene is for sure, .... so that makes the AIP part still open ..... we need to go German or we ned to go Russian and thats the only two option available for EG.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 27 Apr 2005 00:14

Marcos,

Look boss, nothing wrong in being a Russophile, but its not true that we "believe" in the western Media..speaking for myself, diversification of supply is good. Too much of our stuff is Russian as it is, and this is also bad news for the services when they set out to procure spares. The lead time is really large.
Theres nothing wrong in "putting eggs" in several baskets as long as there is a clear purpose around it all. Its always good to have diversified sources of supply and technology, while making sure logistics doesnt get screwed up.

Marcos · Post by **Marcos** » 27 Apr 2005 00:50

c'mon yaar.... this diversification has outlived its utility is what i believe .... if we need to look it, we have lots of examples to study it from, namely the nato nations and the other nations that buy western stuffs etc etc ... our probs started with the collapse of SU and thats also coz of the lack of the earlier long term view when buying stuff, like what we are doing now. But now plzz don say that SU wud have refused it etc etc, the case is that if we had wanted we cud have .... but the politicians lacked any long terms stratery or plan only for the Nation ..... and not for their personal stuffs ....

K i don have time and energy to give a long post on that, got to catch volvo early morning .... maybe a quick look around at keyfora ... btw, haven't seen u there for long, after the trip that u arranged for me to Russia

and Boss, please call me Marc ..... i want some one to shorten my name ... can some one help on that one?

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 27 Apr 2005 06:12

Marc,

what a theory man, so if a competitor puts a product and if thats a non-western item, that automatically turns to arms twisting. Its not fair man.
Quote:
No matter how much we say that we have independent decision making, unless we resist and go with something we want this arm twisting will continue.
sadly for u, our decision making can't be independent, when the major chunk of the decision makers are western oriented.
Quote:
Yes we had some good deals and technology from Russia that does not mean we should do and say what they want us to do.

And what did Russia want us to do that we did not want to do that have jeoparadized our decesion making far from independent? anything specific with a backup for ur claims w/o the regular western media and their Indian copycats theories?

===

First, I am not anti-Russia, nor Anti-western, I am just Pro-India.
The current thinking to diversify sources for military hardware is good one. We have faced problems with Russia regarding spares and long delays in getting the bought hardware operations. When did Mig-29 become operational. When was the final version of SU-30MKI delivered.

Did not Russia threaten/warn us that not to go for anything else than Mig29K, otherwise gorshkov deal is off. ( well this is understandable to a certain extent). How about Mig-21 upgrade. Regarding upgrade of Mig-27 etc. Well they were not happy with us getting Phalcon mounted on IL-76 etc. Now they are making same kind of noice on Akula. the list keeps growing. I can only go with information from media, as I have no internal source.

Tell me what is the status of Mig-AT and why it existed in the first place, Amur is nothing but similar design to compete for Indian contract. Russian Sub were double hull, Amur is new, Once proven India can think about it. Western nations (HDW, France, spain etc) have more experience with single hull design, and we expect then to be operation sooner, then an Amur which may very well go the way of Mig-29/Su-30MKI in getting operational.

It is good idea to maintain a western line of technology along with what we get from Russia. May it be Navy, AF or Army, MOD can do better to diversify the source to meet long term strategic goal.

You claim our babus are more western inclined, inspite of the fact that 70% of the hardware Indian Armed forces field are of Russian origin. Obviously there is a need to diversify as there are problems with single source. Not only the west is better able to market the hardware, but the design is more ergonomics. I have read in media, that HDW subs have better crew facility then Russian subs. IAF is happy with M2k. So it is not just marketing, but the products appear to satisfy the customer as well.

Russia would care less about India once the market dries up. Each one is for itself, and you cannot expect Russia to behave otherwise. They are selling too much hardware to China, and I can't trust whatever promise Chicom has made to Russia, there is large possibility the TSP may get there hands on many of it.

Bottomline, India should think long term and buy whatever it feels suits it need, it could be western, Russian, Israel, US, or from timbuktoo. I don't care.

If Indian Navy thinks scorpene is what they need, that is what they should get. But they should evaluate all offer on the table, and try to maximize the productivity of $s spent while getting the most suitable product for their short and long term.

Personally I thought HDW was a better sub, from the paper specs obviously. But it may be better Sub, but perhaps not a better weapon system platform that IN is looking for. So let then decide what they want. I do not mind a mix of Scorpene/HDW and Russian (AMUR/Kilo) etc. Provided technology is provided for it to be produced in India.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 27 Apr 2005 06:19

Ragupta,

Superb post! Agree with you 400%.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Apr 2005 07:57

One must keep one's eye firmly on the target,when it comes to our long overdue sub acquisitions.The key factor is the striking power of the sub.Missiles carried aboard for both anti-ship/surface and anti-sub,apart from a decent number and variety of torpedoes for anti-sub and surface vessel strikes.The lethality and range of these weapons gives the sub its true capability.Silencing is another very important factor,but a silent sub without enough kill capability is nothing but a 2000t+ periscope!

Our sub fleet at the moment has plumped for the Klub family of missiles,which can be fired from the tubes in our existing subs.This reduces the number of both missiles and torpedoes that can be carried.The 10 Kilos are being modernised to carry Klub.The latest devlopment in our defence capabilities is the huge success of Brahmos.Brahmos is altogether in another class,which has no equal in the world at the moment.With the IN plumping for inducting Brahmos immediately aboard all vessels that can carry it,an IN sub equipped with a battery of VLS cells for Brahmos-as demonstrated in the Amur design is highly desirable.An Amur can carry 8 Brahmos missiles as well as a full complement of torpedoes.In choosing a western sub line also apart from the Amurs,the IN wants to keep its options open in obtaining the best conventional sub technology available.It has spent a consierable time in evaluating and choosing the Scorpene,rejecting HDWs U-boats.This decision has been scrutiniseed by every committee possible in the country.The present govt. in delaying the decision is only escalating the price,which its very own Finance Ministry fidns objectionable!Terribkly fishy indeed! While it would be of great acadaemic interest to "mate" Russian weaponry with German subs designs,the Russians have not said yes so far and even of they agreed one can imagine the long lead time in perfecting that happy event.It would certainly take a few years to achieve the technological feat,and only after that could serious evaluations take place,by which time the IN would have a sub fleet of rusting hulks unfit to be sent out on patrol!Intriguing as it may well be,we do not have the luxury of time in bringing the Germans into the picture.The Germans have NO sub launched anti-ship or sub missile at all and would have to beg the French for them if from a western nation!Even their subs sold to Israel hve two sizes of tubes which anaysts have specukated are for a secret Israeli sub launched nucelar tipped missile.The IN knows its facts and has therefore chosen the Scorpene,which can fire advanced versions of Exocet as well as other French missiles under development and is many respects a virtual French nuclear sub technology wise.There seems to be a vested interest in the "review" of the pricing,once again by the Finance Ministry.This ministry has been blocking decisions on very urgently needed defence equipment apart from reducing the funding.A parliamentary committee on defence has also adversly remarked upon the Finance Ministry's slashing the funding for defence acquisitions.One must remember here that HDW is actually owned by US banks and our American educated Finance Minister is only helping the enemy by his ministry's apparent vested non-decision objections and actions damaging to India's vital defence and security needs.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Apr 2005 08:29

Thought subs were meant to part of the triad.

Need capability to lounge in the Chicom Seas at the very least and blast away from some 2/5000 Kms away.

Igorr,

Any news on teh Akulas by any chance?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 27 Apr 2005 10:57

Our honorable finance minister is not at all above the realm of suspiscion. If a certain pattern is detected in his decisions, then it would be time to turn up da heat.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 27 Apr 2005 16:04

NRao wrote:Igorr,

Any news on teh Akulas by any chance?

Sorry, no news about Akulas from February- April. However, The previous news said, the deal is going on:

Russia will transmit to India on the conditions of leasing multipurpose NS of project 971 "Pike- B"

Russia it will transmit to India on the conditions of leasing the multipurpose nuclear-powered submarine (NS) of project 971 "Pike- B". As reported ITAR- TASS with the reference to the source in Military-Industry complex of Russia, Russian and Indian sides signed contract to the transfer to the leasing with period to 10 years NS of project 971. According to the data of foreign sources, the cost of contract can be 1,7-1,8 billion dol., India already transferring the advance payment in the matched volume.

According to the data OF ARMS- TASS, the speaking, most likely, it goes about the transfer of the two NS's to the leasing. In any case earlier during the talks with India the speaking was on relative to leasing for the five-year period with the possibility of further acquisition two NS of project 971 "Pike- B" ("shark" according to the classification OF NATO). The Negotiations Continued Long Time, Since In parallel India Was occupied By its own Domestic Program NS. The Indian program ATV (Advanced Technology Vessel) on the creation by its own NS constantly encountered technical problems.

However, recently in the works according to its own program of the building of nuclear-powered submarines ATV was outlined a certain shift, after control according to defense studies and to developments (DRDO) transmitted the part of the works to private contractor "Larsen & Turbo". This firm already completed the production of the sections of housing NS. Major issues, with which they encountered within the framework of this program, were connected with the overall sizes of the shielding shell of reactor, which do not coincide with calculation data of project ATV. At present these problems is overcoming with the support of Russian specialists.

To the works according to the program NS ATV India approached in the beginning 1970- th. At the given moment to the works according to this program more than 40 billion rupees are spent (833 million dol.). The introduction of first Indian NS to the armament is forecast not earlier than 2009-2010; therefore taking into the leasing precisely of two Russian NS is the most optimal solution for the solution of the short-time problems of the building of the atomic submarine for NAVY of India. THE NAVY of India already accumulated experience of the operation of nuclear-powered submarines (NS) after acquisition into the leasing OF NS of Soviet production "project -670A" of the type "Charlie", equipped with cruise missiles. This NS by the name K -43 (renamed into "chakra") was exploited in India in the period 1988-1991.

As reported Russian OF THE MEDIA, in the course of the recent visit of Boris Aleshin to Komsomol'sk-on- Amur with the management of Amur shipbuilding plant was signed the protocol of intentions, which, in particular, provides for already in this month the renewal of building two NS, which find on the conservation. These boats were placed in the middle of the 80th it was annual for the Pacific Ocean fleet. However, the works were stopped because of the absence of financing. Until today one boat find in the 60- percent readiness. The second boat is prepared for 85%. The atomic impact submarines of project 971 "Pike- B" have a length of 110,3 m, the width of 13,6 m, average sagging 9,7 m. housing is prepared from slightly magnetic steel. Their Maximum submersion depth is 600 m. the speed in the underwater position of 33 knots, in the above-water - 11,6 knots. This some of the highest-speed submarines of Russia. Cruising capacity - 100 days. Crew - 73 people. On the boats is established one nuclear reactor OK-650. The Boats have four 650- mm and so many 533- mm of torpedo tubes. They Are armed by torpedoes (including with the nuclear warheads) and cruise missiles "granite", underwater rockets and by torpedo-missiles "squall", "waterfall", "wind".

Taking into the leasing of Russian NS is entered in the concept of the NAVY of India development. To 2010-2012 the NAVY of India command plans to create the strategic forces, which play the leading part in the Indian Ocean. The basis of these forces they will compose two carrier-based assault echelons, nuclear-powered submarines (NS) and strategic sea bombers. To the middle of the following decade the ships of the unlimited sea floating will compose the large part of the Indian fleet. The steady increase in financing, is confirmation of the strategic expansion NAVY of India. 1,8 billion dol. (or 13,3% of the defense budget in the amount of 13,54 billion dol.). In 2003-2004 f.y. for the needs NAVY it was isolated with 2,45 billion dol. (or 18% of defense budget in 13,6 billion dol.). In 2004-2005 f.y. from the total defense budget in the amount of 14,6 billion dol. toward the financing NAVY was planned to direct 3,2 billion dol. (or almost 22%). Thus, an increase financing fleet occurs both in the cost volume and in the percent ratio to the defense expenditures as a whole. Within the framework of the building of fleet the command NAVY of India decided to bring the number of warships from present 148 to 198 units. Due to the removal of the part of the ships of the operation, the total number of newly constructed ships, accordingly approved by government program, will compose 80 units for 10 next years. http://www.mvms-mvdv.ru/news/60/2/1293.htm 22.10.2004

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Apr 2005 16:38

Thanks Igorr. Sounds like good news from Indian PoV.

IMHO, this sub contract should be divided into nuke vs. non-nuke. The prior (Akulas + ATV) should be RUian camp and the latter in FR (+ GR at some point in time). There is no need to mix the two, and, thus, the nations too.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 27 Apr 2005 17:24

NRao wrote: There is no need to mix the two, and, thus, the nations too.

Yes, I must agree: to mix German subs with Russian weapon will be wery hard also because Germany is NATO state, and Russia worry about a leakage of secrets. However, I can see, India is not satisfacted with the french price. I think, France had understand, that in '6 Scorpens +6 Amurs' formula the Amur is not true competitor to Scorpen. I think, they understand, that India want go to Amurs+Scorpens anyway, and thus they rise the price...
The variant of German submarine with Russian weapon (even virtual) can help to compulse the french to 'downgrade' their appetite.

In open competition, I think, Amurs not give a chance for Scorpene because of better weapon and silence with much lesser price. But the issue of diversification gives good chance for France overcharged offer.

However, it is onle my personal oppinion.