India Nuclear News And Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by vina »

3) The economics of a NPP are badly skewed towards the start up, that is most cost is in making the plant -- thus the NPP must be most efficient if it hopes to recover the initial investment even partially (partially anyway it runs on Govt subsidies) -- a drop in running efficiency has thus a far greater impact on NPP compared to a gas plant say, which when running below max thresh hold also does use less gas and thus much lower running cost
Err. Hydel has the EXACT same economics. High upfront costs, very long gestation and next to nothing in terms of running costs. However for a large sized hydel if you actually pay the real costs of submerged land, displaced populations and everything, the costs are immense.

Hydel gets around this by dressing it up as "Multipurpose" and thus puts flood control , irrigation, navigation etc as part of the "package", but even otherwise, those large dam projects have an environmental footprint that is orders of magnitude greater than nuke and huge investment costs, esp for a resource and capital starved country like India.

As for part load operations, a 500MW turbine if run at 50MW will suffer serious throttling and off design point losses. What is usually done is to set up 10*50MW turbines rather than one 500MW precisely for that. With hydel, you just have to turn off a valve and shutdown a turbine .That is it's great strength. Gas too has a very quick start up time. Ideal for peak load operations.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote: for point (1), hope you can provide some links to show how mining was slowed down. But more importantly Vina was talking about the 'total reserves of uranium available' for exploitation. So mining faster does not increase the quantity available for exploitation.
If Vina was making time estimates without considering the rate of mining the calculation is even more completely hokey.

Also links to how mining has been slowed down because of lack of budgetary support has been posted many times before.
(2) Why should all FBR need to stay in the strategic space? Considering Stage 2 and 3 are contingent upon getting enough 'maal' to be viable in the first place?
Circular reasoning, starting with assumption that 3 stage needs external input you prove that its not strategic?

If the Pu is available from domestic sources, which is actually the original plan, why do we need imports?

3 stage needs to be in strategic space for IP protection and development of tech while protection from predatory policies from other sources.
(3) where is this 'opening up' story coming from?

:lol: From you, you want Firangi maal and you say where is opening up coming from? IAEA will not conduct "investigations" into them if they use firangi inputs?

Please lets not make such random statements.
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

Obviously people cant comprehend th difference between "load following", "requirement to operate at high PLF" and "requirement to operate at high efficiency (wonder how they define this though)"..PLF is a function of energy demand and fuel availability...A nuke reactor can well be a viable base load provider at a PLF of 60% - only that its invetsment pay-back will be pushed further out in the future...which in turn is the same for every source - thermal, gobar gas, hot air anything!!! That has got nothing to do with the "efficiency" of the reactor...If anything, the "efficiency" variable is measured in terms of "availability factor"...

Now some more look at the data - Indian reactors PLF (or capacity factors) and "Avaialbility factors"..Note the 50-60% PLFs till 2009...

http://www.npcil.nic.in/main/AllProject ... splay.aspx

And now, profitability of NPCIL operating at these supposedly "low efficiency" levels..
http://www.npcil.nic.in/main/financialReport.aspx

Even at such "low efficiency ratios", NPCIL was a very profitable entity...

The point is different - the ultra low marginal cost of NPPs make it worthwhile for them to be operated at max capacity for base load requirements -shorn of jargon, what it really means is that "hoi polloi energy requirements" (a couple of fans, running the washing machine, oven, metro/suburban rail) are met by the cheapest marginal cost power...While "elite" energy requirmeents (malls, multiplexes, industry) are met with higher marginal cost power generated by gas, wind, solar etc...

Of course, there will still be a few pages later some more asertions of "NPP as base load is crap - they have to be base load by necessity, cant operate at low "efficiency" ratios etc etc"....Data i always incidental to ideology, no?
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

vina wrote:Ideal for peak load operations.
Barring some of your objections against Hydel as dressing up (they are not dressing up) -- I mostly agree.

The difference between Hydel and others is that the potential and actual env cost such as people being shifted etc is upfront and hence cost taken into account, for NPP it is done AFTER the NPP goes BOOM :P and hence unpredictable and mostly factored for.

If a suitable liability insurance is taken and then economics calculated, I would agree that Hydel and NPP are same.
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote: That even truer for nuclear unfortunately. Carbon continues to be a basic reality.
True but a 20 year life span for PVs vs at least a 60 year life span for nukes makes a difference. As well as the number of of PV cells required to produce the the same level of electricity as a reactor.
Not really Arnab - the carbon footprint of nukes are FAR lower than solar...Solar is actually quite high...There are numerous studies - some have been posted in this thread (and the other) a few times...
arnab
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 09:08

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote: If Vina was making time estimates without considering the rate of mining the calculation is even more completely hokey.

Also links to how mining has been slowed down because of lack of budgetary support has been posted many times before.

Circular reasoning, starting with assumption that 3 stage needs external input you prove that its not strategic?

If the Pu is available from domestic sources, which is actually the original plan, why do we need imports?

3 stage needs to be in strategic space for IP protection and development of tech while protection from predatory policies from other sources.


:lol: From you, you want Firangi maal and you say where is opening up coming from? IAEA will not conduct "investigations" into them if they use firangi inputs?

Please lets not make such random statements.
Sorry but please explain - if the 'indicated and inferred' category of uranium reserves will allow you to produce a maximum of 10,000 MW per year. How will a faster rate of mining allow you to get past the 10,000 MW limit?

I think the DAE paper has proved the need to import 40 GW of nuke reactors. Even Dr gopalkrishnan has not refuted that. He is just horrorstruck that India will have 500 odd 'unsafe' FBR reactors developed indigenously :)

Sorry - you said 'premature opening up' of 3 stage cycle will make india vulnerable. Define 'premature'? and vulnerable in what way? Assuming that the 3rd stage commences in 50 years?
Last edited by arnab on 21 Apr 2011 11:37, edited 2 times in total.
arnab
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 09:08

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

somnath wrote: Not really Arnab - the carbon footprint of nukes are FAR lower than solar...Solar is actually quite high...There are numerous studies - some have been posted in this thread (and the other) a few times...
Sorry - I should have been more nuanced. I meant 'True' that there is a carbon foot print for nukes. But as you said - it is lower than solar.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote: Sorry but please explain - if the 'indicated and inferred' category of uranium reserves will allow you to produce a maximum of 10,000 MW per year. How will a faster rate of mining allow you to get past the 10,000 MW limit?
What... Vina made a statement that Babha's plan would get us to point A in 100 years imports will let us do that in 50.

Please read what he said and in what context the discussion is happening.
I think the DAE paper has proved the need to import 40 GW of nuke reactors. Even Dr gopalkrishnan has not refuted that. He is just horrorstruck that India will have 500 odd 'unsafe' reactors developed indegenously?
:rotfl:

Dr Gopal Krishan has not refuted that?

:rotfl:

Sorry - you said 'premature opening up' of 3 stage cycle will make india vulnerable. Define 'premature'? and vulnerable in what way? Assuming that the 3rd stage commences in 50 years?
Sorry, not going to do. Its already here on this thread. Scan through.
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

Some more non sequitor..Hydel has no "unknown BOOM"? Err..Fukushima had a dam burst, that blew away about 2k homes? Ho many would that have killed - 5000, 6000? I guss being washed away by a dam burst has less claims on the insurance company than being irradiated and probably getting cancer 20 years later! :twisted:
arnab wrote:Even Dr gopalkrishnan has not refuted that. He is just horrorstruck that India will have 500 odd 'unsafe' reactors developed indegenously?
Arnab, lets not even bring in Dr Gopalkrishnan...His latest gripe is that the nuke facilities are not under independent regulatory supervision!

And yes, people mention "3 cycle" as if its a state of being - a child if "touched" by satans will blow out :twisted: Back to facts, the FBR is NOT under IAEA safeguards, neither is the AHWR...Of course, both are hot air in terms of actual operation as of now, but there goes..
arnab
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 09:08

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote: What... Vina made a statement that Babha's plan would get us to point A in 100 years imports will let us do that in 50.

Please read what he said and in what context the discussion is happening.

:rotfl:

Dr Gopal Krishan has not refuted that?

:rotfl:

Sorry - you said 'premature opening up' of 3 stage cycle will make india vulnerable. Define 'premature'? and vulnerable in what way? Assuming that the 3rd stage commences in 50 years?
Sorry, not going to do. Its already here on this thread. Scan through.
Ah so if ROFLing is the answer, I guess the point has been made :)

and point 3, I guess we were right - no answer :) When you think of something, do define 'premature' and what is your take on 'vulnerability' :)
arnab
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 09:08

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

somnath wrote: Back to facts, the FBR is NOT under IAEA safeguards, neither is the AHWR...
Exactly :) This is how mythmaking starts - need to call out the lies early :)
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by vina »

Sanku wrote:If Vina was making time estimates without considering the rate of mining the calculation is even more completely hokey.

Also links to how mining has been slowed down because of lack of budgetary support has been posted many times before.

If the Pu is available from domestic sources, which is actually the original plan, why do we need imports?
:lol: From you, you want Firangi maal and you say where is opening up coming from? IAEA will not conduct "investigations" into them if they use firangi inputs?
Yawn.. Sanku add the following to your 100000000 times imposition to "complete your education" (maybe I should report that post of yours, but hey I am grown up, and not a juvenile , but then if you can dish it, you should be able to take it no?)

1) If I have X amount of a material that can be mined, the rate of mining DOES not change that total X. If I have 1000 Rs in the bank, either I withdraw 10 Rs for 100 days or withdraw Rs 1000 in one transaction, overall, I can withdraw only Rs 1000.

2) Poo is not naturally available. Just like Thorium, U-238 is useless as it is. You need to irradiate them in reactors to become useful U-233 and Pu-239! Just because you have U, doesn't mean you have Poo!

3) Imported vs domestic uranium. Some elementary high school math.

To get to Rs 100, if the compound rate of interest is 10%, how many years will it take, if your principal was Rs 1 ?

Now in the problem above, if your principal was Rs 10 , how many years will it take ? (Do the actual math, dont give an off the cuff answer and you will be surprised at the difference).

Now substitute Rs 100 with the 3rd stage, The Principal Amount with Uranium and the rate of interest with the breeding ratio and you will get an elementary school answer.


If I am willing to wait for 150 years , given that my strategic needs require Y amount of U, and the remaining X-Y is what I have for power, can I do it? Sure. But if I need it in 30 years, what should I do ?

a) Wear dhoti onlee and be piss poor and scream will do "indic" onree, "nationalist" onree, self sufficiency onree

b) Actually use my brains, cordon off the resources and domestic U for strategic reasons , and import the "Needed Principal" to get my power generation program into full gear leading to 3rd stage and put a stop to my hemorrhage of imports of fossil fuel, which I foresee climbing exponentially to unsustainable levels along with the investments in the transport and supply chain networks! And oh, the import is one time only and the NPA's are claiming murder because they know that you cant do both with your domestic uranium and that was the fundamental lever for CRE ? So who is the true leader ? MMS or frothing in the mouth "nationalists" in Jaitapur

Zimble onree na ?
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

vina wrote:b) Actually use my brains, cordon off the resources and domestic U for strategic reasons
This has precisely been the argument of NPAs, Pakis, closet Chinese et al - everyone who didnt want the nuke deal to go through, this was the rationale...And it has been beaten and discussed to death..Strange we keep coming back in circle :-o
arnab
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 09:08

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

somnath wrote:
vina wrote:b) Actually use my brains, cordon off the resources and domestic U for strategic reasons
This has precisely been the argument of NPAs, Pakis, closet Chinese et al - everyone who didnt want the nuke deal to go through, this was the rationale...And it has been beaten and discussed to death..Strange we keep coming back in circle :-o
Exactly!! This has been the favourite gripe of NPAs. Importing allows India freedom to use its own uranium for strategic purposes. Now the 'nationalists' don't want to import :)
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote: Ah so if ROFLing is the answer, I guess the point has been made :)
My point is that you are making confident assertions without being aware of the VERY BASICs. If you are aware, then it is even worse.

Later in the day I am going to post a interesting clip. After all the noise makers in the thread have night time in their operating zones.
and point 3, I guess we were right - no answer :) When you think of something, do define 'premature' and what is your take on 'vulnerability' :)
No I am tired of spoon feeding. Done too much, and even then folks don't get it (and I think people are deliberately obtuse) -- this is not for you btw.
arnab
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 09:08

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote:My point is that you are making confident assertions without being aware of the VERY BASICs. If you are aware, then it is even worse.

Later in the day I am going to post a interesting clip. After all the noise makers in the thread have night time in their operating zones.

No I am tired of spoon feeding. Done too much, and even then folks don't get it (and I think people are deliberately obtuse) -- this is not for you btw.
Oh I know the basics saar, it is just that my bullshitmeter starts oscillating vigourously when I hear hyperbole like 'vultures devouring child without water'. It shows a complete absence of factual data :)
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

vina wrote: Yawn.. Sanku add the following to your 100000000 times imposition to "complete your education" (maybe I should report that post of yours, but hey I am grown up, and not a juvenile , but then if you can dish it, you should be able to take it no?)
Allow me to help you complete your education Vina. Including things your education should have taught you but has not.

Some basics first.
1) If I have X amount of a material that can be mined, the rate of mining DOES not change that total X.
Sir jee, the total X is more than enough to start the process in 3 cycle. That is never the question.

Also X in the ground is irrelevant -- it is X in hand which is meaningful -- It is the rate of extraction which defines the matter in hand.

Also
To get to Rs 100, if the compound rate of interest is 10%, how many years will it take, if your principal was Rs 1 ?
But hey why deal with high school math when you are a MBA? Did you sleep in the finance classes and miss out the concept of annuities?

I am tired of people posting high school stuff with great pride as if every one is on the same level as them.
:evil: :evil: :evil:
Last edited by archan on 23 Apr 2011 23:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: debate using someone's education, pedigree, panile sizes etc. generally doesn't result in good atmosphere. To be fair and balanced onlee, you shall get a warning as well.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote:My point is that you are making confident assertions without being aware of the VERY BASICs. If you are aware, then it is even worse.

Later in the day I am going to post a interesting clip. After all the noise makers in the thread have night time in their operating zones.

No I am tired of spoon feeding. Done too much, and even then folks don't get it (and I think people are deliberately obtuse) -- this is not for you btw.
Oh I know the basics saar, it is just that my bullshitmeter starts oscillating vigourously when I hear hyperbole like 'vultures devouring child without water'. It shows a complete absence of factual data :)
How do you ever live with yourself then. Dont worry I will post links showing basic data as to how "Dr Gopal K is not against 40 GW plants" :lol:
arnab
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 09:08

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote:
Dont worry I will post links showing basic data as to how "Dr Gopal K is not against 40 GW plants" :lol:
Yikes you are threatening to spoon feed us again now :)
arnab
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 09:08

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote: Sir jee, the total X is more than enough to start the process in 3 cycle. That is never the question.
What is this 'start' the process sir :) I thought the process has started ay back since Dr Bhabha designed the cycle. So are you coming up with something new?
Last edited by arnab on 21 Apr 2011 12:13, edited 1 time in total.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote: Sir jee, the total X is more than enough to start the process in 3 cycle. That is never the question.
What is this 'start' the process sir :) I though the process has started. So are you coming up with something new?
Input Pu for potential 2-3 stage plants that are made.

Indian inputs are more than enough to keep FBR supplied as and when they get made.

Obviously they are already enough for the trial units running now.
arnab
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 09:08

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

Sanku wrote:
Input Pu for potential 2-3 stage plants that are made.

Indian inputs are more than enough to keep FBR supplied as and when they get made.

Obviously they are already enough for the trial units running now.
obviously for the trial units - they are :) But shall we stay in the Trail phase forever like Arjun :) ? Then people will say - Oh that damn GOI never made arrangements for adequate supply of U to make this power commercially and economically viable. No wonder we stayed with the inferior coal based power because we did not have a choice.
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by vina »

Sanku wrote:Allow me to help you complete your education Vina. Including things your education should have taught you but has not.

Some basics first.
1) If I have X amount of a material that can be mined, the rate of mining DOES not change that total X.
Sir jee, the total X is more than enough to start the process in 3 cycle. That is never the question.

Also X in the ground is irrelevant -- it is X in hand which is meaningful -- It is the rate of extraction which defines the matter in hand.
Ah. Brilliant. Another gem on the line of 1.25cups = 1bucket. :lol: :lol: .

If the total is X, even if you mine all that X right now and leave 0 on the ground, you are still left with only X! That X is not enough to have both a strategic program TODAY and a power generation in stage 3 within a reasonable time.. sure even with say a miniscule amount of uranium, you could theoretically do 3 stage if you wait a 10000000000 years!
Sanku wrote:
To get to Rs 100, if the compound rate of interest is 10%, how many years will it take, if your principal was Rs 1 ?
But hey why deal with high school math when you are a MBA? Did you sleep in the finance classes and miss out the concept of annuities?

I am tired of people posting high school stuff with great pride as if every one is on the same level as them.
:evil: :evil: :evil:
:lol: :lol: :lol: . For someone who couldn't get past elementary school, talking about annunities is rich indeed! Why the question I asked you was exactly that, with the annuities re-invested and hence compounded.. dumbed down as compound interest. Come on, try passing 5th std and try doing that elementary math and then we can talk about bigger things like import and Poo and the rest.
Last edited by archan on 21 Apr 2011 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: bolded part. sigh. warning issued.
ramdas
BRFite
Posts: 585
Joined: 21 Mar 2006 02:18

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by ramdas »

1. To some extent, Uranium shortage was artificial..Many uranium mining projects are not getting off the ground due to "environmentalists".

2. Indeed, the nuclear deal helps us reserve more domestic uranium for the strategic program. However, at some point in the next few years, the need to test will arise (in order to confirm that we have a reliable thermonuclear capability). Dr. Santhanam confirms that the deal does not forbid us from testing. However, in the worst case, the price we pay would be return to pre-deal status quo or something like that. Even then, we should extract the benefits while they last.

3. Ideally, tests should have been conducted in the 2004-2005 timeframe to confirm/clear for deployment thermonuclear weapons. Of course, the deal would have taken some more time to negotiate, but the end result would have been a stable deal in any case, without strategic and civilian goals being at cross-purposes.
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

ramdas wrote:Dr. Santhanam confirms that the deal does not forbid us from testing. However, in the worst case, the price we pay would be return to pre-deal status quo or something like that. Even then, we should extract the benefits while they last.
The good thing about the nuke deal is that it will take much more political capital from the US to throw us "out" now comapred what it took to take us "in"...NSG works on consensus..Once we test, to throw us out, every single member of the NSG will need to approve our expulsion - tall order...In fact we should only e holding our horses till we become a member ourselves... :twisted: Again, this was something that NPAs knew from day 1, and hence the vociferous protests...

BTW, on the uranium mining bit - the sort of people opposing mines are also the types opposing LWRs, and nuke weapons, and anything else...Politics makes strange bedfelows!
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by vina »

ramdas wrote:. Indeed, the nuclear deal helps us reserve more domestic uranium for the strategic program. However, at some point in the next few years, the need to test will arise (in order to confirm that we have a reliable thermonuclear capability). Dr. Santhanam confirms that the deal does not forbid us from testing. However, in the worst case, the price we pay would be return to pre-deal status quo or something like that. Even then, we should extract the benefits while they last.
That assumes that the current state of technology and everything is frozen. The world 25 years from now could be very different indeed and there might be other technical means to do it. Testing is a means to an end and not an end in itself!

As I see it, if India continues along it's current path, we will be among the leading lights in the comity of nations and will have far greater influence than we have today and indeed a significant place in the global world order. And the problem of testing or not to test will not be an "Indian"problem alone ,but every nuke power's problem. A common problem will have a common answer! I wouldn't be too bothered about it now.
3. Ideally, tests should have been conducted in the 2004-2005 timeframe to confirm/clear for deployment thermonuclear weapons. Of course, the deal would have taken some more time to negotiate, but the end result would have been a stable deal in any case, without strategic and civilian goals being at cross-purposes.
The time to test was 1987 or whenever when Pakistan crossed the Nuclear threshold and the AQ Khan interview with India Today happened. The Vajpayee test was done when the CTBT threatened to slam the door forever.
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
arnab wrote:Load-shedding is a depressing fact of life every summer in our power-hungry nation. This year will be different—with an ironic twist. Despite a record 15,795 MW of fresh generation capacity being synchronised in 2010-11, the power situation is going to get worse.
The answer is right there.

Despite adding 15,000 MW we are unable to get the power from here to there. This 15,000 MW BTW is probably the entire crop of nuclear coming our way over the next 20 years. It is not even a drop in the bucket. The nuclear is being pushed because of pressures on the parties involved. Its just convenient. Several parts of our country are now power surplus occasionally, yet the grid and pricing systems don't allow this surplus to be used.
.
Here are reports about interconnection issues, pricing woes and load shedding issues
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/tod ... 697351.ece

Poor interconnection

While demand patterns have a bearing, lack of adequate grid interconnection between the southern region and the rest of the country has compounded the problem, making it difficult for surplus power to flow to the southern grid.

Of the five regional grids in the country, the northern, eastern, western and the north-eastern grids are synchronised to form, what is termed as, the ‘NEW' grid while the southern region has only limited interconnectivity with the rest of the regions.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/tod ... 005946.ece
If power utilities resort to load-shedding even when electricity is available at cheap prices on the power exchanges, the regulator could wield the stick.

State Electricity Regulatory Commissions have been asked to exercise “regulatory oversight” through “load-shedding protocols” amid instances of rampant power cuts by utilities despite prices crashing in the short-term electricity market.

The Central Electricity Regulatory Commission (CERC) is likely to come out with guidelines in this respect, which could be adopted by the State regulators. The proposal was discussed at the Central Advisory Committee meeting of the CERC recently, where members expressed concern on repeated instances of load shedding by utilities despite power being available at rock-bottom prices on the two operational bourses.

A combination of extended monsoons and new merchant capacity coming on stream have led to a crash in the electricity spot market, with availability well in excess of demand, and prices in the day-ahead market on the bourses down to record lows since August.

Improved hydel generation has also added to the availability. Reflecting this, on the Indian Energy Exchange (IEX), the largest electricity bourse, the weighted average market clearing price plummeted from over Rs 4 a unit in August to around Rs 2.5 a unit range in the first week of September
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/tod ... 565792.ece
New Delhi, March 23:
Spot prices of electricity in the southern region have zoomed to over Rs 12 a unit in the last couple of days, over four times the price quotes for the rest of the country on the IEX, the country's largest power exchange

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/tod ... 008144.ece
No ready money

Added to this is the reluctance among distribution utilities (Discoms), mostly cash-strapped SEBs, to buy electricity on the exchanges as they have to shell out ready money to do so. Also, the trend among Discoms to cut power in their semi-urban and rural areas, even when cheap power is available at ridiculously low tariffs on the exchanges, is adding to the worries of merchant power developers.

Wheeling constraints further compound the troubles for upcoming project, with the inter-State transmission system not keeping pace with generation.

Private sector players, including the Naveen Jindal Group, Videocon, the Adani Group and Indiabulls, are among those setting up merchant power capacities, where most of the power is meant to be sold in the spot market — either on the exchanges, through traders or through short-term bilateral pacts between utilities.

A total of 9,585 MW of capacity was added during the last fiscal, of which 4,287 MW or 45 per cent was by private developers, most of which had earmarked significant portions to be sold on the spot market. During the current fiscal, a capacity addition of around 14,000 MW looks likely, of which around 40 per cent could be private projects, again mostly merchant capacities.

Approaching danger zone

According to a senior CEA official, a serious situation is brewing in the power sector. “It is now fairly certain that by the middle of the Twelfth Plan (by 2014-15), the country should be in a comfortable situation in terms of generation capacity on the ground. The danger, however, is that Discoms have neither been financially restructured nor have they upgraded their distribution system. As a result, we are likely to have a situation where the generation has to be backed down and at the same time there is load shedding.”

Such a situation could have an adverse impact on the financial bankability of the sector at large, as there could be payment defaults by the IPPs (private projects), he said.
Grid strengthening and interconnection would improve utilisation of generating capacities already available and coming up online in few years. That will contribute to 15-20% to total generation. That would be much more than what Nuclear would add in 2020-2050...
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

arnab wrote: obviously for the trial units - they are :) But shall we stay in the Trail phase forever like Arjun :) ? Then people will say - Oh that damn GOI never made arrangements for adequate supply of U to make this power commercially and economically viable. No wonder we stayed with the inferior coal based power because we did not have a choice.
Thats rhetoric, the point is simple.

Does domestic Uranium reserves provide enough for 3-cycle? Answer is yes.

It is deliberate misinformation to try and connect the two by powers that be.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

vina wrote: If the total is X, even if you mine all that X right now and leave 0 on the ground, you are still left with only X! That X is not enough to have both a strategic program TODAY and a power generation in stage 3 within a reasonable time.. sure even with say a miniscule amount of uranium, you could theoretically do 3 stage if you wait a 10000000000 years!
Within a reasonable time eh? Firstly that means a "reasonable" person making "subjective" analysis of what the time for such good reason are.

Suffices to say that -- Reasonableness can be different for different people

Actually the above is not really true for most practical time frames. Indian U can indeed fulfill the task. Its not like we will have 200 plants every year AT THE SAME TIME or something.

As plants get on line, use some Pu more Pu will be generated by the time NEXT plant comes on line.

So perfectly possible to stage it, and in any case plants will not all appear in India one fine morning. They will be staged for a whole variety of reasons having nothing do with Pu availability. (Such as land acquisition, financing, man power training etc etc etc)

Sanku wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol: . For someone who couldn't get past elementary school.
Vina, I have often warned you, the temptation of thinking "oh others must be like me onlee" must be let go of as you grow up. Try man, you have to be better than a foul mouth unthinking ranter given your past and demands on your future.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

Times now debate on Jaitapur, its a good summary of positions and reactions of various parties involved.

http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-War-over- ... 370905.cms
TIMES NOW's Editor-in-Chief Arnab Goswami debates the issue of massive public opposition to jaitapur nuclear plant and in the wake of safety concerns should the project be reassessed with Abhishek Manu Singhvi, Natational Spokesperson, Congress; Praful Bidwai, Environmentalist; Dr A Gopalkrishnan, former Chariman, Atomic Energy Regulatory Board; M R Srinivasan, former Chairman, Atomic Energy Commission; Raja Patwardhan, Resident, Jaitapur and Rahul Narvekar, Spokesperson, Shiv Sena.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

In context of all the crying over supplier clause in the liability bill.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110421/ap_ ... ll_lawsuit

BP sues rig owner for $40B; blames it for disaster
The British company said in papers filed in federal court in New Orleans that it is suing rig owner Transocean for at least $40 billion in damages, accusing it of causing last year's deadly blowout in the Gulf of Mexico that led to the worst offshore oil spill in U.S. history. BP says every single safety system and device and well control procedure on the Deepwater Horizon rig failed.

It also is suing Cameron International, which provided a blowout preventer with a faulty design, which caused an unreasonable amount of risk that harm would occur. Both companies have filed counter claims against BP.
The dual standards of US (at home and else where) as well as those who bat for US intrests is unbelievable. For Japan, a regulator in bed with TEPCO is okay but considered a crime in US. In India they consider supplier liability as damaging for India, in US they will insist on it.
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

For all those who claim that gas, hydel and (clean!!!) coal can easily take care of India's future power needs, an interesting account here..

There is no fuel to power even existing infrastructure!
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?271380

On coal
When contacted by Outlook, state-run power major NTPC denies facing any problems with fuel supply, but in an official statement, it admits, “There is a marginal hike in power tariff due to high cost of imported fuel.” Even at 10 per cent blending of imported coal, there can be a huge difference in power production costs. For instance, the domestic coal bill was Rs 33,000 crore for 319 million tonnes last year, while the 2011-12 import target of 55 million tonnes is expected to cost upward of Rs 36,000 crore.
Guess its more "honourable" for the nationalists to keep importing high cost coal from Australia than Uranium!

On gas..
Similarly, on average, gas-based projects are operating at an efficiency of around 52 per cent due to the shortage in feedstock. Here again, the high cost of imported gas is proving to be a deterrent
Err, wasnt gas supposed to be the all-in-one, base load/peak load saviour?

Finally, on "cheap" non-nuclear power..
All this translates into higher costs of power generation and thus more pressure on the power utilities to make consumers pay a higher tariff. Earlier this month, Orissa witnessed power tariff rise from Rs 2.62 per unit to Rs 3.22 per unit. In Delhi, it is thanks to the high court that yet another tariff hike has not materialised. Andhra Pradesh too has recently been witnessing agitations against power shortage, topped off by a hike in the price of power.
Well, one would think that it ws nuke power that was driving up the costs!!! :twisted:

All this for existing capacity..We are supposed to be adding 20k MW each year for the next 5 years...
GuruPrabhu
BRFite
Posts: 1169
Joined: 01 Apr 2008 03:32
Location: Thrissur, Kerala 59.93.8.169

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Somnath,

I have asked the worthies to consider the oil, coal, gas bill in 2050. Perhaps, I should just ask them to consider it for 2020. And then, compare it to cost of Th -- surely the conclusion would be "who needs nuclear?". But then, this is just twisting and trolling.
Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Meanwhile back in massa land... ...they be dropping like flies...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/20/busin ... NRG&st=cse

NRG Abandons Project for 2 Reactors in Texas
The company planning the largest nuclear project in the United States, two giant reactors in South Texas, announced on Tuesday that it was giving up and writing off its investment of $331 million after uncertainties created by the accident in Japan.

But the project — planned by NRG, a New Jersey-based independent power producer, and its minority partner, Toshiba — was in considerable doubt even before the accident at Fukushima began on March 11. Texas has a surplus of electricity and low prices for natural gas, which sets the price of electricity on the market there.
The public’s appetite for nuclear power projects resembles the situation right after the Three Mile Island accident of 1979, said Charles A. Zielinski, a lawyer in Washington who is a former chairman of the New York State Public Service Commission. Companies now factor in the prospect of higher construction costs, mixed with a slack demand.

The South Texas Project “may have been on the fence already, and Fukushima pushed it over,” Mr. Zielinski said.

Tom Smith, an organizer in Austin with Public Citizen and a longtime campaigner against the project, cited higher construction costs and uncertainty after the Fukushima accident.

“The wheels are starting to fall off the nuclear renaissance,” he said.
Sound familiar?

http://swampland.time.com/2011/04/20/th ... till-dead/
To the Washington establishment, which also adores nuclear power, this is yet another sign of America’s inability to solve intractable problems. Nukes are carbon-free, and most bigfoot Beltway pundits see opposition to new nukes as the province of hippie-dippie lefty purists who cling to airy-fairy dreams about green energy. But they haven’t run the numbers. Reducing power consumption through energy efficiency is far cheaper and far faster (not to mention safety or waste issues) than increasing power generation through new nukes. And in recent years, renewable power has attracted hundreds of billions of dollars in private capital, while new nukes have depended almost exclusively on the largesse of socialist governments.

The first round of U.S. nuclear construction was collapsing under the weight of its own economic insanity even before the Three Mile Island accident killed it off. We’ll see if Fukushima has the same effect on Round Two. The nuclear lobby is a lot more powerful now, and no-nukes activism has mostly petered out. But it’s still thriving in the capital markets and even the boardrooms of nuclear utilities, so unless we want to pay for the renaissance ourselves, we’re not going to have one.
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2614
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by ldev »

GuruPrabhu wrote:Somnath,

I have asked the worthies to consider the oil, coal, gas bill in 2050. Perhaps, I should just ask them to consider it for 2020. And then, compare it to cost of Th -- surely the conclusion would be "who needs nuclear?". But then, this is just twisting and trolling.
Besides price, the issue is also one of availability. Also, price increases in such commodities are never linear - in fact prices increase exponentially for a relatively minor shortfall in supply over current demand. Recent increases in the price of crude oil (albeit mixed up with a speculative investment component as well as the travails of the US Dollar) are testimony to that.

One fundamental factor which will not change is India's population and current low per capita consumption of electricity. Only the Chinese provide a meaningful comparision. And they show no signs of slowing down their enormous drive to increase their nuclear power generation capacity. I feel that 20-30 years from today, the Chinese will have increasingly locked up global uranium supplies, while our "nationalists" will then cry over yet another lost opportunity. While there may be major issues to argue over nuclear power generation, the fact that it should be a major component of the base load generation capacity is in no doubt IMO.

Reading the last few pages, gave me a sense of deja-vu. All of these arguments and counter arguments were hashed and rehashed on BRF years ago in the years leading up to the 123 including Indian uranium reserves, estimated natural uranium requirements per 1000MWe of PHWR capacity, the estimated breeding ratio of the 500MW FBR, guesswork as to its fuel, as well as initial loading requirements, and the fissile requirements for the proposed AHWRs. And thereby the timeframe within which the 3rd cycle can start. Obviously, without the kickstart of the neutron availability via the various nuclear agreements, commercially significant quantities ( significant in light of India's requirements) of electricity from the 3rd stage would not happen in our lifetime and would probably be obsolete given that by then fusion may become commercially availabile.

Based on GPs posting style, he should have more than an encyclopedic knowledge of the info mentioned in the para above.

It has been alleged in some quarters that uranium mining in India may have been kept on a short leash to protect extinct species. Maybe uranium debating is also being kept on a short leash to protect other kinds of species. :wink:
Sanatanan
BRFite
Posts: 490
Joined: 31 Dec 2006 09:29

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

Regarding import into India of un-reprocessed LWR spent fuel for utilisation of fissile and fertile isotopes in it:

Despite vigorous protests by activists, Japan has effected many shipments of LWR spent fuel from reactors within its territory to Europe for reprocessing and separation of fissile and fertile isotopes (U, Pu and Minor Actinides) and return the separated products to Japan for reuse. But, importantly, Japan is required to take back and safely store (vitrified and under ground in deep bore holes) the other highly radioactive long lived fission products (LLFP) that are also generated in the fuel rods in the reactors in its territory. In other words, the principle being followed is that the highly radioactive waste (LLFP) must go back to its country of origin.

However, even if one is to assume that at some future point of time NSG countries would agree to sell to India spent fuel rods that contain fissile and fertile inventory for reprocessing and subsequent use in safeguarded facilities within India, it is highly unlikely that they will agree to take back the radioactive waste (LLFP) that comes out after reprocessing in an Indian facility. In view of the opposition, in their own countries, to the deep hole repository storage of radioactive waste (LLFP) over several centuries (dark brown line in the graphic below), they would most likely insist that India should keep the waste (LLFP) in its own territory and also demand that India should deal with it safely. In other words, they will use the sale of spent fuel rods to enforce India to become their dumping ground.

One can suggest that India can bargain to get a lower price for the spent fuel rods as a discount for agreeing to store the waste (LLFP) within India. While India has its own reprocessing waste (LLFP) to store, any move by an Indian Govt to take on the added quantum of imported waste (LLFP) to be stored, is very likely meet with strong Public disapproval.

The position may change at some distant time in the future, if Accelerator-based rendering of LLFP isotopes to much reduced radioactivity levels is developped by India (hopefully, indigenously!) to the extent that such a process becomes not only feasible but also economic.

Image

As an aside, after the Rokkasho reprocessing plant is commissioned (according to Wikipedia "it is currently undergoing test operations, separating a small amount of used nuclear fuel"), Japan would probably not send spent fuel to other countries for reprocessing. By the way, according to WNN, due to the recent after shock earth quake event, "the Rokkasho reprocessing plant also lost grid power and is currently (07, Apr 2011) maintained by its diesels". What are the safety issues in a reprocssing plant due to loss of electric supply?

Just my thoughts.
Last edited by Sanatanan on 22 Apr 2011 07:41, edited 1 time in total.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Italy Puts Nuclear Power on Indefinite Hold

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... inite.html
Plans to build a new generation of nuclear reactors in Italy have run aground following the accident at the Fukushima plant in Japan last month.

The center-right government of Silvio Berlusconi announced in 2008 that it wanted to start constructing four new nuclear plants by 2013 in order to reduce the country's considerable dependence on imported energy. That would reverse a ban on nuclear energy generation imposed by a referendum held in the wake of the 1986 Chernobyl disaster. But the Japanese accident led the government to announce a 1-year moratorium on its nuclear program, and yesterday the upper house of parliament approved a measure to delay the setting up of new plants indefinitely.

Davide Tabarelli, president of Italian energy consultants Nomisma Energia, believes that the latest move "does not come as a surprise." He points out that the nuclear program had already encountered delays and had met fierce opposition from regional governments unwilling to host new plants, so creating political difficulties for the Berlusconi administration. "The accident at Fukushima, although a tragedy, gave the Italian government a kind of excuse to get rid of nuclear," he says.

In fact, opposition politicians accuse the government of introducing the new measure in order to avoid a 12 June referendum on the return of nuclear power that the government looked set to lose. Antonio Di Pietro, leader of the Italy of Values party, maintains that the government has "cheated" the Italian people, arguing that it has simply delayed the site selection process rather than abandoned nuclear power altogether.

Economic Development Minister Paolo Romani said on Tuesday that the government will present a new 20-year energy strategy after the summer, explaining that "it is important to look to the future, using the best available technology for the production of clean energy, in particular renewables."

Tabarelli says that such a strategy is long overdue, having been promised as far back as 2007 by the then left-of-center government of Romano Prodi. But he is skeptical that it will deliver the necessary increases to domestic energy production. In particular, Tabarelli believes it is "almost impossible" that Italy will reach its target, set in 2009, of using renewables to supply 17% of the country's total energy needs by 2020. He points out that Italian investors have recently withdrawn from the photovoltaics market following uncertainties over the future of government subsidies.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Reactors, residents and risk: A world population analysis reveals the locations that could put the most people in danger should a nuclear accident occur.

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110421/ ... 2400a.html

...

In the aftermath of the Fukushima nuclear accident, people everywhere are asking: could a similar disaster strike closer to home?

For much of the world's population, distance offers no comfort. An analysis carried out by Nature and Columbia University, New York, shows that two-thirds of the world's 211 power plants have more people living within a 30-kilometre radius than the 172,000 people living within 30 kilometres of the Fukushima Daiichi plant, who have been forced or advised to leave. Some 21 plants have populations larger than 1 million within that radius, and six have populations larger than 3 million.

Population size was just one of the factors that Nature set out to explore in a bid to map reactor hazards around the world. Nuclear experts say that an objective 'danger' ranking is almost impossible because each reactor has its own unique risk profile, and some risks are simply unknowable. Reactor safety depends above all on a 'culture of security', including the quality of maintenance and training, the competence of the operator and the workforce, and the rigour of regulatory oversight, says Mycle Schneider, an independent nuclear consultant based in Paris. This means that a better-designed, newer reactor is not always a safer one. "What is more dangerous, a drunk driver in a brand new Ferrari or a sober Formula 1 pilot in a 30-year-old 2CV?" Schneider says. But experts do agree on a few critical risk factors, and on measures that could limit them.

Population

Population density is one critical lens through which other risks have to be assessed, says Laurent Stricker, a nuclear engineer who is chairman of the World Association of Nuclear Operators (WANO), created as an international forum on nuclear safety in the aftermath of the 1986 Chernobyl accident. "We need to look at the safety of reactors taking into account where they are," he says (see Nature 472, 274; 2011).

To carry out the population analysis, Nature teamed up with the NASA Socioeconomic Data and Applications Center based at Columbia University (see 'How population sizes were estimated' for an explanation of how the analysis was carried out). The KANUPP plant in Karachi, Pakistan, has the most people — 8.2 million — living within 30 kilometres, although it has just one relatively small reactor with an output of 125 megawatts (see 'Nuclear neighbours'). Next in the league, however, are much larger plants — Taiwan's 1,933-megawatt Kuosheng plant with 5.5 million people within a 30-kilometre radius and the 1,208-megawatt Chin Shan plant with 4.7 million; both zones include the capital city of Taipei. The findings of Nature 's population analysis are "scary", says Ed Lyman, a nuclear expert with the Union of Concerned Scientists in Washington DC.

If the radius is broadened to 75 kilometres, the picture looks even more disconcerting. China's neighbouring Guangdong and Lingao plants top that league, each with around 28 million people within a 75-kilometre radius that covers Hong Kong, followed by the Indian Point plant near New York, with 17.3 million, and the Narora plant in Uttar Pradesh, India with 16 million. One hundred and fifty-two nuclear power plants have more than 1 million people living within 75 kilometres; and all but five plants have more than 1 million people within 150 kilometres. Fortunately, prevailing winds have so far blown most of Fukushima Daiichi's radioactivity out to sea, as some 7.7 million people, including some in the greater Tokyo area, live within 150 kilometres of that site (see 'Where the worst could happen').

External threats

As Fukushima showed, external threats — such as earthquakes, tsunamis, fires, flooding, tornadoes or even terrorist attacks — are some of the greatest risk factors for a serious nuclear accident. Conventionally, nuclear plant operators have considered some accident sequences so unlikely that they have not built in complete safeguards — such accidents are called 'beyond design basis' events. Yet forecasting the location of the next earthquake or the size of the next tsunami is an imperfect art.

This means that nuclear plants situated outside known geological danger zones could pose greater accident threats in the event of an earthquake than those inside, as the former could have weaker protection built in. The Fukushima Daiichi plant, for example, was located in an area designated, on Japan's seismic risk map, as having a relatively low chance of a large earthquake and tsunami; when the 2011 tsunami arrived, it was in excess of anything its engineers had planned for.

The possibility of beyond design basis accidents is a major thrust of the many safety reviews being conducted post-Fukushima. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) is already paying attention to external threats — creating an internal International Seismic Safety Centre in 2008, for example, after an earthquake hit the Kashiwazaki-Kariwa plant on the west coast of Japan in 2007, prompting an automatic shutdown and a minor release of radioactivity (see Nature 448, 392–393; 2007).

Design and age

Some reactors and plants are inherently more dangerous than others. One factor is sheer size. A larger plant can generate more fallout, and when simultaneous crises develop at multiple reactors — as happened at four of Fukushima's six reactors — operators can be overwhelmed. The Kashiwazaki-Kariwa plant has seven reactors, making it the world's biggest in terms of electrical output at 7,965 megawatts. Other such mega-sites, besides Fukushima itself, include Qinshan on China's northeast coast, Yeonggwang and Ulchin in South Korea, the Leningrad plant in Russia, Bruce on the shores of Lake Huron in Ontario, Canada, and Gravelines and Paluel, both on the northern coast of France.

“One hundred and fifty-two nuclear power plants have more than 1 million people living within 75 kilometres.”
Older reactors are not necessarily more dangerous than newer ones. The 1978 Three Mile Island accident in the United States occurred in a reactor that had started operation only three months earlier, and the accident at Chernobyl (now in Ukraine) occurred after only two years of operation. A serious loss of coolant occurred at the French Civaux-1 reactor in 1998, less than five months after start-up. That's not surprising, says Lyman, as reactors follow a well-known trajectory in reliability engineering called the 'bathtub curve'. Complex new machines and installations often have features that haven't been fully tested, or are new to operators, so bugs and mistakes can occur at the start. After the bugs get worked out, reactors enter a relatively lower-risk stable phase, but risk later increases with age-related deterioration. "Institutional loss of memory" is another problem that increases with reactor age, says Jan Beránek, head of nuclear campaigns at Greenpeace International, headquartered in Amsterdam, the Netherlands. "Many engineers who are familiar with the design and were involved in the planning and building of those reactors are retired, and part of their very specific expertise is getting lost."

As the 1986 Chernobyl accident showed, the design itself can pose risks. The Chernobyl reactor core contained flammable graphite, and the fire that burned for weeks after the accident spewed radioactivity high into the atmosphere. The reactor design also contained an inherent instability such that the chain reactions accelerated as the core lost water — an impossible event with most other reactor designs. Several Chernobyl-design reactors are still in operation in Russia, in particular at the plant near St Petersburg, close to large population centres. These reactors have, however, been radically overhauled to address these and other safety issues with the design.

But Lyman cautions against placing too much stock in one reactor design being safer than another. Modern pressurized water reactors would face much the same difficulties as Fukushima if their cooling systems were disabled, he says.

Culture

However safe a plant is designed to be, it is operated by error-prone humans. Operators must guard against complacency, says Stricker. "One flaw that I worry about is that of overconfidence." Experts say that the largest single internal factor determining the safety of a plant is the culture of security among regulators, operators and the workforce — and creating such a culture is not easy. "It is expensive. And it involves an attention to detail and a willingness to accept and learn from intrusive peer review by others," wrote Richard Meserve, president of the Carnegie Institution for Science in Washington DC, in 2010 as chair of the IAEA's International Nuclear Safety Advisory Group.

Meserve was referring in particular to what many experts see as potentially the fastest-growing risk in the nuclear industry: that many countries with little or no past experience are embarking on nuclear power or are already building large numbers of reactors. Meserve points, for example, to plans to introduce nuclear power in Belarus, Chile, Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Lithuania, Malaysia and Morocco, among others. Experts worry about lack of regulatory oversight and corruption in some regions. Stricker says that peer review of plants before they start up will be of particular importance in inexperienced countries, and that WANO intends to increase such reviews.

Tom Cochran, a nuclear expert at the Natural Resources Defense Council in Washington DC, is sceptical that the many post-Fukushima safety reviews already under way in the United States, the European Union and elsewhere will result in significant changes in risk assessment of nuclear reactors. "They will make recommendations and adjustments, but I don't think you can ask regulators to review whether they have made mistakes in the past; I don't think they will do enough." Cochran wants independent commissions to be established, similar to the Kemeny Commission set up to draw lessons from the Three Mile Island accident.


And with risk assessment so difficult, experts say that one of those lessons is that operators must simply prepare better for a serious nuclear emergency. "One change that WANO could, and in my opinion must, make," says Stricker, "is to be in a position to verify that every nuclear operator company from the smallest to the largest has plans to cope with unforeseen accidents."
Sanatanan
BRFite
Posts: 490
Joined: 31 Dec 2006 09:29

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanatanan »

abhishek_sharma wrote:Reactors, residents and risk: A world population analysis reveals the locations that could put the most people in danger should a nuclear accident occur.

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110421/ ... 2400a.html

...

For much of the world's population, distance offers no comfort. An analysis carried out by Nature and Columbia University, New York, shows that two-thirds of the world's 211 power plants have more people living within a 30-kilometre radius than the 172,000 people living within 30 kilometres of the Fukushima Daiichi plant, who have been forced or advised to leave. Some 21 plants have populations larger than 1 million within that radius, and six have populations larger than 3 million.

. . .

Population

Population density is one critical lens through which other risks have to be assessed, says Laurent Stricker, a nuclear engineer who is chairman of the World Association of Nuclear Operators (WANO), created as an international forum on nuclear safety in the aftermath of the 1986 Chernobyl accident. "We need to look at the safety of reactors taking into account where they are," he says (see Nature 472, 274; 2011).

. . .
India (and, as of now, only India) tries to control population by enforcing a "sterilised zone" for 5 km radius around an npp. Thank heavens, it is not 30 km!
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

ldev wrote: feel that 20-30 years from today, the Chinese will have increasingly locked up global uranium supplies, while our "nationalists" will then cry over yet another lost opportunity. While there may be major issues to argue over nuclear power generation, the fact that it should be a major component of the base load generation capacity is in no doubt IMO
I wont be too concerned about that...Natural resources are nevern really "locked up" by a third party...But yes, the debate is the same old one pre-123....Each of the apprehensions have been found to be unfounded..

1. We will be dependent on the satan - no contract, not on power, not on fuel inked with the US..
2. We will import 200 reactors...Only one is in some stage of advanced negotiations, even that hasnt achieved financial closure yet..None from the US...
3. IAEA will be all over us - intrusive inspections...Well, as it turns out almost everything material is NOT under safeguards..In fact the # is less than what the "natioanlist" govt had proposed without getting into a "clean waiver"!
Locked