Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Apr 2011 20:03

Indian Commandos with Israeli TAR-21 Assault Rifles

Courtesy spguidepublic

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 22 Apr 2011 22:45

Are they Para Commandos or MARCOS?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 22 Apr 2011 22:52

Juggi D,
Could you please post the link of the source?
Thanks.

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Apr 2011 23:05

Watermark says Livefist.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 22 Apr 2011 23:31

negi wrote:Watermark says Livefist.

I noticed that.

However, I have searched Livefist using various keywords including "tavor", "commando", "special forces", "marcos" & "para" but with no success. I even tried googling spguide combined with other keywords but met with the same result.
So, having realized that I need to take googling classes first thing in the morning, I thought it would be much more convenient to just make a request to the uploaded himself.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 22 Apr 2011 23:54

page 12 ^^ http://www.spslandforces.net/ebook.asp? ... &year=2011

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 23 Apr 2011 01:30

Gaur wrote:Juggi D,
Could you please post the link of the source?
Thanks.

Hi Gaur!
Link of the Source

PHOTO: New pic of Indian commandos with Israeli TAR-21 assaul... on Twitpic

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Apr 2011 02:02

thanks juggi

reinforces what some of us have been saying

get the Special forces out of the Paras.

The damage caused by these para officers is incalculable

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Apr 2011 13:44

^^ article talks of entire SF units being posted on UN duties.Which units have done UN stints?

Also, Paki SSG operate in Nepal and Iraq?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 Apr 2011 14:17

shravan & Juggi G,
Thanks a lot for the post. The article was most interesting.

sum wrote:^^ article talks of entire SF units being posted on UN duties.Which units have done UN stints?

Well, 9SF was around Sierra Leone on UN duty when 5/8 GR soldiers were stuck there. I don't know whether 3SF was also on UN duty or not. It may be that it was flown in for Op Khukri..but I am not very sure.
However, IMHO, UN duty for SF soldiers is not a bad thing. In fact, most units (not talking specifically about SF) "want" to go to UN duties. After all, it gives them a well deserved break with good pay. Surely, the soldiers deserve that.
OK, now you may say that I am making UN duties sound like a holiday trip. However, they certainly do seem so after operating in Indian CI ops. There are sometimes unfortunate cases even there, but that is negligible as compared to here. So, nothing wrong with that IMO.

Also, Paki SSG operate in Nepal and Iraq?

Now that you come to think about it, that is not so surprising. Unlike RAW, ISI is nothing but an extension of Pakistani Army. Their soldiers are even present in Militant outfits. So, when Gen Katoch speaks about SSG men in those places, he may be referring to SSG soldiers in ISI and Militant outfits present there.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Apr 2011 21:16

^^ One thing which seems to be suggested by the article is that our SF is nothing more than a CI force currently.
Are there absolutely no cross-border limited raids( upto few K.M depth etc) to target terrorists across the border etc and the only action is within our own borders? Given that the author says that currently the SF have zilch HUMINT to rely on, doesnt seem implausible...

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Apr 2011 22:53

What Lt. Gen Katoch has said is a mere reflection of the IA doctrine which obviously has to work within the limits prescribed by our foreign policy; the questions General raises are for the PMO-MoD and MEA combine to answer simply because it is the latter that have always operated in a 'reactive' mode specially when it comes to national security; in such a scenario be it SF or any other mythical group they would be relegated to CI (*counter*) roles only. Having said that on ground SF and MARCOS are trained for the kind of roles which the General talks about.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Apr 2011 08:05

sum wrote:^^ One thing which seems to be suggested by the article is that our SF is nothing more than a CI force currently.
Are there absolutely no cross-border limited raids( upto few K.M depth etc) to target terrorists across the border etc and the only action is within our own borders?

I feel that you are underestimating the enormity of the action that you are suggesting. Operating in enemy territory is an extremely serious matter which can only happen when the Govt says so. As negi said, SF are trained for many things. In fact, their main job is to operate behind the enemy lines with virtaully no support and they have successfully done so numerous times in wars. But it is not the prerogative of SF to decide how they are to be used in peacetime.
BTW, people sometimes underestimate the terrorist operations. Now I cannot argue with someone like Gen Katoch. If he says that SF are overkill in this matter, who am I to say otherwise? However, it is worth mentioning that the terrorists infiltrating in J&K are far cry from the rag tags in Afganistan and Iraq. Unlike them, these terrorists are trained for months (sometimes years) by the Pakistani Army. They use sophisticated weaponry,comm equipment, gps etc. So, operating against terrorists in J&K is a totally different ball game and totally uncomparable to anywhere in the world.

iven that the author says that currently the SF have zilch HUMINT to rely on, doesnt seem implausible...

Talking about HUMINT. Whose job is that? SF or RAW? At a local level, Army has good intelligence network in troubled J&K and NE. However, that is because of the incompetency of other intelligence agencies . It is like what happened in Sri Lanka. RAW blokes were too afraid to go out and Army was fed with totally misleading info. When Army arrived in Sri Lanka, they were in for a rude awakening and so had to do the intelligence work themselves.

But at a strategical level, it is totally unfair to ask SF to be the main intelligence agency. Maybe MI, but certainly not PARA SF.
Anyway, that would never work. Every job requires unique skill set. Therefore, the selection procedure is customized considering the job requirements. The attributes that an Army recruitment chap would be looking for would not be the same as that RAW is looking for. So, you just cannot train a intelligence man to become a soldier and vise versa. The results would always be sub par.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Apr 2011 11:16

sum wrote:^^ One thing which seems to be suggested by the article is that our SF is nothing more than a CI force currently.
<SNIP>

That is a very callous statement to make. Does SF deployment in CI role seems some walk in the garden to you? There is very strong reason that SF units are roated in and out off J&K and NE. And the fact that SF operators are the highest recipient of Shaurya Chakras, Sena Medals and Ashok Chakras, is a testimony to the intensity of operations and effectiveness of their deployment.

As an aside, what the good general was trying to convey is the fact that we use a strategic asset like SF as reactive tools. Instead, these assets can be deployed, political will permitting, inside the enemy territory to take out high-value assets like amir-e-piglets and chairman-united retard council. And something like laying ambush inside enemy territory to intercept the movement of piglets towards LOC - when their guard will be lowest. Or undertake a classic recce operation and keep tab on the movement of piglets to jump-off points and keep the CI forces abreast with these movements. Basically, increase the cost to enemy as well.

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Apr 2011 14:28

That is a very callous statement to make. Does SF deployment in CI role seems some walk in the garden to you?

My apologies if my statement came across like what you suggested. I was only asking if that is what the good Gen was saying in his article.

As an aside, what the good general was trying to convey is the fact that we use a strategic asset like SF as reactive tools. Instead, these assets can be deployed, political will permitting, inside the enemy territory to take out high-value assets like amir-e-piglets and chairman-united retard council. And something like laying ambush inside enemy territory to intercept the movement of piglets towards LOC - when their guard will be lowest. Or undertake a classic recce operation

Was assuming that this was already being done by our forces ( recall some articles in BRF few years back about ambushes being setup few K.Ms inside Paki territory)..Sad if even this isn't being done nowadays.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Apr 2011 14:56

sum wrote:<snip>ecall some articles in BRF few years back about ambushes being setup few K.Ms inside Paki territory<snip>

That is a surprising news to me. Could you please post those articles? If that is not possible, could you at least tell us more about those articles?
Thanks.

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Apr 2011 15:02

Gaur-ji. One such article was our own BRF Monitor one by LNS:
CI Operations in Jammu & Kashmir

Moreover there were a number of Pakistanis both serving and non serving including SSG personnel. In response the Army now headed by General B.C. Joshi started laying ambushes across the LOC. Small units of men moved a few km inside the Pakistani side where they lay in ambush for the unsuspecting militants. After their ambush they would slip back over the LOC. Many of these were laid after careful analysis of signal intelligence.

Trying to locate few other such articles from the past..

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Apr 2011 15:17

^^
Thanks for the effort. That was an interesting read.
But as rohitvats posted, the good General was talking about a totally different thing.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 25 Apr 2011 02:31

As an aside, what the good general was trying to convey is the fact that we use a strategic asset like SF as reactive tools. Instead, these assets can be deployed, political will permitting, inside the enemy territory to take out high-value assets like amir-e-piglets and chairman-united retard council. And something like laying ambush inside enemy territory to intercept the movement of piglets towards LOC - when their guard will be lowest. Or undertake a classic recce operation

Actually from the same article:

...
The Special Forces were now established and their skills gave the Army the tools it needed. Using specific information the Special Forces could move in and eliminate whole mujahid units. Special Forces men dressed as locals mingled in and started hitting back. They could even move in the 10000 ft passes carrying out ambushes. They also moved across the LOC much deeper then the 1- 5 km penetration by the regular Army units. Their presence had the effect of forcing the ISI and Pakistani military of moving most of the training camps towards the sanctuary of the Afghan border.

~Ashish

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Apr 2011 12:49

^^^Misraji, thanks for pointing that out. I think it sums up what I was trying to convey to sum on the usefullness and role of SF in CI Ops in valley.

As for what the good general is trying to convey - IMO, he wants something on the lines of how the Americans and British use their SF. Real strategic assets....like taking out high value targets deep in POK or top-rung militants in Burma and Bangladesh.

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 25 Apr 2011 13:38

rohitvats wrote:^^^Misraji, thanks for pointing that out. I think it sums up what I was trying to convey to sum on the usefullness and role of SF in CI Ops in valley.

As for what the good general is trying to convey - IMO, he wants something on the lines of how the Americans and British use their SF. Real strategic assets....like taking out high value targets deep in POK or top-rung militants in Burma and Bangladesh.

I believe so too. Bharat Karnad and some others have been talking about it for a long time.

Bharat Karnad made this point very vigorously in his paper, that was published in the book that was brought out by Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS) in 2006.

The book is titled - "Special Forces: Doctrine, Structures, and Employment Across the Spectrum of Conflict in the Indian Context".
Editor: Lt. Gen. Vijay Oberoi (Director CLAWS)
ISBN: 8187966394

At the launch of that book Admiral Arun Prakash made a speech that is available on the following link:

http://www.indiadefence.com/SF.htm

The book itself is worth a read.

Best regards.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Apr 2011 13:49

^^^I have the book. Though, have not been able to go through it in detail due to work pressure.

To all BRFites and jingoes, please buy this book. Best open source info on the Special Forces of India and thoughts on their employment, shortfalls and everything else.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 25 Apr 2011 16:27

^ Where can one get the book? I have been trying for sometime and no store in Mumbai seems to carry it. Online sources are all abroad (US) and don't ship internationally.
CLAWS is the publishers of the seminar proceedings but they don't list it in their books section.

Any help/info will be mucho appreciated by me (and others who want to buy the book). TIA.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Apr 2011 16:37

Marut wrote:Any help/info will be mucho appreciated by me (and others who want to buy the book). TIA.

Try this
http://www.lancerpublishers.com/catalog ... b5e5af5d3b

I ordered books from Lancer in the past and they are good to deal with.

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Apr 2011 16:38

^^ Damn, same pooch as Marut-ji.

Seems we are searching for same books and not finding them, be it "Weapons of peace" or SF related etc..

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Apr 2011 17:23

Gaur wrote:Talking about HUMINT. Whose job is that? SF or RAW? At a local level, Army has good intelligence network in troubled J&K and NE. However, that is because of the incompetency of other intelligence agencies . It is like what happened in Sri Lanka. RAW blokes were too afraid to go out and Army was fed with totally misleading info. When Army arrived in Sri Lanka, they were in for a rude awakening and so had to do the intelligence work themselves.

But at a strategical level, it is totally unfair to ask SF to be the main intelligence agency. Maybe MI, but certainly not PARA SF.
Anyway, that would never work. Every job requires unique skill set. Therefore, the selection procedure is customized considering the job requirements. The attributes that an Army recruitment chap would be looking for would not be the same as that RAW is looking for. So, you just cannot train a intelligence man to become a soldier and vise versa. The results would always be sub par.

HUMINT is responsibility of both. RAW, as mentioned by B Raman, is actually a R and A. Some of us have a high opinion of them "for example" an under cover agent like James Bond. What they actually do is go to other country as a part of diplomatic staff or something, scan their local news papers/media and write reports. In extreme, make some contacts etc. The agency has no teeth by design. I am specific to HUMINT (not TECHINT).

SOF have recon as a specialisation. Not all fight. Some are trained to recon or spot etc. RAW agents are not equipped for war like operations, hence they will be first unnecessary causality of war.

Unless something super secret, we do not have a a strategic intel capability. All folks from RAW, IB, MI etc routinely file their reports.

Unless IA brass has a specific requirement, even MI plays safe. They write exaggerated warning reports for others if needed: as per the hearsay.

But that may not be true. Since, IA or MEA or HM or PM never specify what they are looking for, the intel agencies are left to tell what they think is important. When something goes wrong, all blame each other. This is because, no one has asked anything specific and all their work are same. RAW, IB, MI have same job. Once IB gent told me that we have better assets (outside) than the "other agency"

Then MI does the same job. So, if there is a military ops, RAW and IB don't know about it. At the same time, what Army got to do with strategic intel, say in Libya which MEA should have. RAW and IA will never mix. What happened in Sri Lanka? RAW was training and aiding the LTTE. Those days RAW used to have more teeth. IA was doing something opposite and even IA was not there for a long battle. Similar example was in A&N when RAW (another of rare RAW job) tried to give a place to Burmese rebel and IN was busted them.

SF in CI roles is most apt. they must train and fight together in order to be in top form. Most SF jobs in enemy territory could be similar to CI. Hunt and neutralise. SF don't perform regular CI, they do a lot different from what RR or others do. They also lead RR in ops.

BTW, LT gen writes on SF. I have read a column from him on Manas Defence year Book.

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Apr 2011 17:27

What they actually do is go to other country as a part of diplomatic staff or something, scan their local news papers/media and write reports. In extreme, make some contacts etc. The agency has no teeth by design.

As if the Monday after a long weekend wasnt depressing enough.....

If RAW job is R and A, who is supposed to provide the inside scoops/intel on which they can do R & A? Surely, everything wont be in the papers/media anywhere.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Apr 2011 17:45

One of the novels ops triple XXX by maloy krishna dhar is a true story. One issue though. he was never in RAW, an exclusive IB guy. ROFL. So how does he know?

IK Gujral has really killed RAW.

RAW does make contact but, they are not james Bondish, if you know. Thats what I was trying to aim at. But, generally, they scan local media and send reports. They develop some kind of understanding of the situation.

The problem is that there is no current indication that it has some major break through or is involved in serious espionage.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 Apr 2011 18:32

chackojoseph ji,
You are mentioning MI,IB and RAW (and not any SF unit) when talking about espionage. To be open with you, I have absolutely 0 knowledge regarding intelligence and espionage. The large number of intelligence agencies/departments only end up confusing me. But I know that, in its current structure, PARA SF neither has the capability nor the responsibility to carry out external espionage of any type (leave alone HUMINT). It is just not part of their selection and training. Their intelligence gathering job is limited to perform scouting and SIGINT ahead of a given operation. Maybe even talk to some locals depending upon the situation. But that is all operation specific. At the max, they get involved in HUMINT in the regions where they are based or regularly operate. But even that is in internal areas.

Now if that is what you are talking about, then OK, it is the job of SF. But if the HUMINT is of a "long term" type (including James Bond stuff of placing personnel in foreign Nations and making contacts etc) in foreign Nations, then that is certainly not the job of Para SF.
So , if IA wants to enhance their espionage capability, improving the capabilities of MI seems like the more obvious choice IMHO.

Regarding RAW. You say that, as their name suggests, they are for R & A . Fair enough. But certainly to analyze anyting, they first have to do "research" which may include HUMINT. Anyway, even if that is not part of their job description, then they certainly don't act like it. You mentioned Sri Lanka. They "claimed" to have all the intelligence (HUMINT or otherwise) in there before Army was asked to enter. From what I remember, it was a 72 hour operation in which all of Sri Lanka (including the locals and LTTE itself) would be welcoming IA with garlands and what not.

But OK, lets leave RAW out for now. I have little knowledge of intelligence agencies to debate with you regarding that. But I would like to know your opinion regarding the original question. According to you, which agency/department is responsible for external long term HUMINT espionage? RAW, MI, PARA SF? All of these? By long term, I mean beyond the scope of a certain military operation.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 25 Apr 2011 18:53

Austin wrote:
Marut wrote:Any help/info will be mucho appreciated by me (and others who want to buy the book). TIA.
Try this
http://www.lancerpublishers.com/catalog ... b5e5af5d3b

I ordered books from Lancer in the past and they are good to deal with.

Thanks for the link. Order placed and confirmed for delivery in 8-10 days!

Now if someone will also point me to a copy of Weapons of Peace...

\end of OT post

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Apr 2011 18:54

MI's mandate is limited to x kms from the LOC/Border. Also, MI/IA is supposed to have extremely good SIGINT capability.

All the intelligence outside of this sphere, including HUMINT and SIGINT, is the responsibility of IB and RAW. So, if the RAW fellows suddenly claim that they have no HUMINT role (or capability) and they are R&A only, something is seriously wrong with fellows in RAW and GOI/Cabinet Secretariat.

And herein lies one of the fundamental and most elemental short-comings in using SF as strategic assets like Israel SF raids in Ghaza or Egypt or recent intel led assasination in Dubai - SF operations, by their very nature, are extremely dependent on spot-on intel and good support infra. Many a SF operations have gone bust - Bravo Two Zero being a small example - due to faulty or inadequate operations.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Apr 2011 19:02

Gaurji,

I have read LT gen Katoch before, as mentioned. He means well. Our politico's don't have a job for them in case they are raised. R&AW had a unit like that, and its shut. Even if politico's wake up to something, what job IA SF has in US or UK or any other country. It should be under External agency wing. They can borrow men. We simply don't have jobs for them if they are raised.

If yo read what he said, he is bringing out a Armee's own inner problem of clubbing SF with paras. Armee can differentiate them, but, even if they do, what job will they have?

SF ops need a policy change.

Somethings he talks are unachievable. For example he talks about Chini in POK. Even an Indian stray dog is considered a R&AW agent, I doubt, they can operate there in Pajistan.

THE US and UK SF he talks about is something to be seen with a perspective. US and UK diplomats have permission for SF's to operate in the country or have permissions from border country. Where will India get all this?

If they want a force, then they will create one. See the proliferation of SF among police in India now days. greay hound, gray this grey that, black this and that.

In SL, In my knowledge, R&AW was not on same page with Politicians who were commanding the army. they did not want LTTE to surrender. It was complicated by Tamil Nadu politicians.

In pajistan, they like plum postings or give some up coming generals a political view or intl view. so they must have placed a or more of SF there. Mush was from same outfit or other general must have done a favour. Don't read too much in this stuff.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 Apr 2011 19:42

rohitvats wrote:MI's mandate is limited to x kms from the LOC/Border. Also, MI/IA is supposed to have extremely good SIGINT capability.

Thanks for the info. That makes much sense.

All the intelligence outside of this sphere, including HUMINT and SIGINT, is the responsibility of IB and RAW.

Even IB? According to wiki, RAW is the only external intelligence agency with IB and others being internal only. Is wiki wrong with this? I guess it wouldn't be too surprising if it is.

So, if the RAW fellows suddenly claim that they have no HUMINT role (or capability) and they are R&A only, something is seriously wrong with fellows in RAW and GOI/Cabinet Secretariat.

Totally agree. If RAW is for scanning newspapers only, why does it need SFF? Even though SFF can also be used for SIGINT, they certainly don't need such a large military force for that alone.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Apr 2011 20:00

This is O, read Kaboys of RAW. I had done a review

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Apr 2011 20:58

Special Group with-in SFF was created with express purpose of cross-border operations on the lines of Delta (though SG predates Delta Force)...The means are there; what is lacking is the political will and outlook. And this goes both for the Services and Indian Political and Executive class.

One thing that Services can do straight away is create an organization on the lines of JSOC and for the IA to seperate SF from the Paras.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Apr 2011 21:44

pkpandey wrote:chacko you have mentioned about raw's black ops team earlier in navy thread and here also, can you throw some light on it?

As rohitvats says, SFF aka Establishment 22 aka vikas regiment. Best place to read a holistic view on it is wiki page

They are still under the PM's discretion.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Apr 2011 21:50

^^^CJ, while SG is theorteticaly part of SFF - as they fall under the purview of Cabinet Secretariat aka R&AW- SG has noting in common with SFF. It is 100% Indian Army. Vikas Regiment is SFF and composed of Tibetan.

***runs and hides from maulana Suryaullah

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Apr 2011 21:59

^^^^ read the wiki link.

===================

do you mean to say, I shouldn't have said SFF, I should have said SG in SFF? Or can you rephrase.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Apr 2011 22:23

Or did you confuse between the SG raised after the covert ops were over?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Apr 2011 23:25

CJ, SFF has/had a very specific mandate - anit-China operations. SFF is more on the lines of elite infantry regiment.***

SG is different entity all together. It was concieved to be Indian equivalent of what Delta Force is to US Army - otherwise, why should SG exist when you have Para(SF)? And when it draws it men heavily from Para(SF) - along with other arms. It is also know as 22 SF.#

***There is a very interesting book called the Buddha's Warriors - please read it to understand the genesis of SFF and role of CIA and R&AW. You can read about the whole affair here: http://www.american-buddha.com/cia.secr ... ilogue.htm

#Check this link: http://majorudaisingh.com/biography.htm - It is a site dedicated to an IA officer (Ex-Para(SF) and SG)..who died fighting insurgency in valley.

Here is the letter from CO of SG or 22SF to his parents (from same website): http://majorudaisingh.com/letters/thapa.jpg