Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 13 Apr 2011 19:14

RamaY ji, possibly Nakula had no reason to go into Afghanistan as it was already under Arjuna's northern campaign (including fighting Sakuni's son in Gandhara). We should be looking at evidence of Nakula extending his campaign upto and beyond the Zagros and into eye-raq.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 14 Apr 2011 01:04

I almost half way done with reading the English translation of Manimekalai. I highly recommend this sequel to Silapathikaram Both of these form 2 of the 5 great tamil epics.

From Wikipedia.

As a continuation of Silappatikaram (Tamil: சிலப்பதிகாரம்), this epic describes how Manimekalai, the beautiful daughter of Kovalan and Madhavi, followers of Jainism, converts to Buddhism. According to the poem, Maṇimekalai studies the six systems of philosophy of Hinduism and other prevalent religions of the time and compares them to the teachings of the Buddha. She is most impressed with Buddhism. Later, upon hearing doctrinal expositions from the Buddhist teacher Bhikshu Aravaṇa Aḍigal, she becomes a dedicated Buddhist nun.

The aim of the author, Sīthalai Sāttanār (or Cīttalai Cāttanār) was to compare Buddhism favourably with the other prevailing religions in South India in order to propagate Buddhism. He criticizes Jainism, the chief opponent and competitor of Buddhism at the time. While exposing the weaknesses of the other contemporary Indian religions, he praises the Buddha's Teaching, the Dhamma, as the most perfect religion.

saadhak · Post by **saadhak** » 16 Apr 2011 03:52

...then despatched with great assurance messengers unto the illustrious Vibhishana, the grandson of Pulastya {Again probably the clan of Vibheeshana}...

RamaY sir, allow me to add what I have heard on Vibhishan's length of ruling his kingdom.
Per Shri Ramcharitmanas, Vibhishan was make king of Lanka for 1 kalpa.
References:
http://www.gitapress.org/BOOKS/1318/131 ... _Roman.pdf
Pg. 945 - when Hanuman bring news of Ravan's slaying to Sitaji (post doha 106 of Lanka kaand)
Pg. 958 - doha 116D of Lanka kaand

If one believes this, one is inclined to say that it is Vibhishan himself being referred to in the above extract.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 16 Apr 2011 06:07

did not find other media covering this important event

Rain lashes Kerala village as fire ritual ends

PANJAL (KERALA): About 200,000 people watched in utter astonishment as the starry night suddenly turned cloudy and a heavy downpour, accompanied by strong winds, drenched the "yagasala" altar in this Kerala village before and after it was set afire Friday to mark the ceremonial end of Athirathram, the ancient Vedic fire ritual.

Rain appeared miraculously because the weather throughout the day was blistering hot and dry and the sky remained starry and clear in the evening.

It changed in five minutes as the sky turned dark and a strong wind built up at around 9.30 p.m.

All areas in the village of Panjal in Thrissur and also in Kochi, the port city, received the rain in a repeat to the 1975 Athirathram, said the organisers.

"The rain was caused by the strong convection current generated by the smoke rising from the altar and the continuous chanting of the mantras," V.P.N. Namboodiri, head of the research team of the Panjal Athirathram, told IANS as people milled around the venue enjoying the cool rain.

Namboodiri is a former director of the International School of Photonics at Cochin University of Science and Technology (CUSAT) and emeritus scientist at the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR).

The altar was set on fire at 10 p.m. followed by a fresh wave of rain.
Nearly 200,000 people had gathered on the concluding evening of the 4000-year-old fire ritual. They erupted into thunderous applause as the first drops of the rain fell.

While the priests claimed it a "miracle", scientists said the Vedas were far ahead of its time in generating local rainfall, a practice that has gained ground of late with chemical nucleation in many parts of India's drought ravaged areas.

The 12-day fire ritual for peace, purification, fertility, health and rain began April 4.

It was organised by a local non-profit group Varthathe Trust to revive dying Vedic traditions in the country.

Panjal is one of the key bastions of the "Samavedis" and "Rigvedis" - practitioners of the ancient Hindu scriptures Sama Veda and the Rig Veda - who have kept the two living traditions of Vedic chants and 'yagnya' (worship of elements) alive for nearly 4,000 years.

The village was host to four major Athirathrams in 1901, 1918, 1956 and 1975.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Apr 2011 10:07

Is there a good description of the vanaras by Valmiki? Who are they? What are their features and characteristics, who are their ancestors and parents?

Bala Kanda

In modern language they are a shock or commando troops. And educated too and dont misuse their powers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Apr 2011 10:32

Interesting blog on ancient India

Ramayana path

SandeepA · Post by **SandeepA** » 16 Apr 2011 14:41

ramana wrote:Interesting blog on ancient India

Ramayana path

Thanks Ramana
The debate on the site of Sita's abduction is still open. Is it Parnasala/Bhadrachalam in AP or Panchvati in Mah (near Nashik)?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 17 Apr 2011 01:30

Ramo' Vigrahavan Dharma: Part-3

After a couple of hours, seeing Viswamitra come out of his meditation, Lakshmana walked to Rama and woke him up. Rama woke up from his nap got ready.

Rama and Lakshmana followed Viswamitra in their journey.

After some time they reached a hermitage in complete shambles.

"Which seer built this hermitage in isolation far from the other hermitages and left it in this state teacher" asked Rama.

"Not in isolation Rama, sage Gautama lives with his wife in this place. He must be in penance now. You shall take his blessings before we continue our journey", said Viswamitra.

"Be careful Rama. You might touch something and change the looks of this hermitage forever" warned Viswamitra.

"I am walking carefully dear teacher...." replied Rama, but stopped in his tracks realizing something moving at his feet.

Rama in a moment realized that what he felt his feet is a woman's body and startled to see a woman raising slowly in front of him.

At the same time a sage walked to that place saying "Gautama welcomes sage Viswamitra and his pupils". Rama and Lakshmana bowed to sage Gautama and took his blessings.

"Rama, this is my wife Ahalya. She is released from her past at this moment. Thank you for that" said Gautama. The confused brothers looked at Viswamitra who smiled at them in return.

Gautama continued... "Rama, this is the cusp of a moralistic age. Dharma too has a nature. That seeks human action. {Key takeaway. Dharma doesn't come from nothingness. It flows from human actions. This is one's duty toward himself, his family, his society, his space/time (universe), and his consciousness}That action at this moment is you. That is how your arrival is related to Ahalya's release from her past. Knowing this I told her that she will be released from her isolation with your arrival. She took my word as a command, and lived a rock-like life. It took this long for her to wash away a momentous deviation from her dharma by joining Indra with lust.

Emotion is the foundation of Woman's mind. Man gives primacy to intellect. A wife that follows her husband in all times requires intellect to override her emotions in most aspects. Ahalya needed isolation to reestablish intellect in her heart that is dominated by feelings. She needed the touch of embodiment of Dharma to know her true self.... am I right Viwamitra?"

"You are a true visionary Gautama..." answered Viswamitra with a praise filled voice.

Rama looked at both the sages and Ahalya who stood next to him.

What is that Dharma these sages are talking about? How did she live the isolated life for so long? Is it her conviction in her husband's word that gave her the illumination in her face?

Looks like every person has some limits on their feelings based on their family and social role. They must follow those rules. The results of crossing those limits are incomprehensible. This life called "Rama" too has a social image and I shouldn't go against that image... thought Rama.

After accepting their hosting Rama continued his journey along with Viswamitra.

After walking few minutes from that hermitage, Rama reached Viswamitra saying "dear teacher....".

Viswamtra turned to him "Rama, I understand your doubt. It is not our duty to decide the rights/wrongs of Ahalya. When a person, be it man or woman, reaches a level using his intellect and forced to leave some of his own in return he/she would leave only those things that they are most confident of. Gautam's confidence on Ahalya must be seen from that angle. {imagine Ahalya saying NO to Gautama's advise OR not believing in his words of Rama's arrival. Reminds me the song in telugu "LavaKusha" movie where Valmiki says - don't doubt Rama's character dear Sita; when Rama leaves Dharma then there is no purpose to Rama, Sita, Ramayana and even my life... }. Not only that Gautama realized that Ahalya needs that penance to realize the importance of intellect over feelings (desires). He knows her maturity levels. That is why he was able to accurately calculate the time she requires to overcome those feelings and related it to your arrival. He also knows that you are born to bring prominence to your entire lineage."

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 21 Apr 2011 09:48

Does the theme of Yama Dharmaraja seated on a buffalo appear after Visvamitra's creation of alternative life-forms, such as the buffalo? Is there any evidence by means of picturisation, at Bhimbetka for instance? What I'm trying to get at is that, Visvamitra's creation theory could have a deeper significance in the sense that it ensured greater agricultural and food backup capability in an increasingly hostile global climate situation, hence dating of such an event would yield some interesting clues in the field of historical weather patterns.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Apr 2011 21:48

One has to read our epics an puranas to understand how to apply them to modern issues with bad neighbors.
A nuke armed TSP, doesnt matter how it got them, is not an easy thing to take down. The closest story is that of Bhasmasura who got the vara/boon to detroy anything he touches from Shiva. And became a menace when he wanted to check its efficacy on Siva himself. Vishnu didn't berate Shiva for giving the vara but assumed Mohini form to entice the Bhasmasura to self-destruct. However one loses track of the psychology used by Vishnu. He assumed the form that entices Bhasmasura and not one he could have which wouldnt do the job. I mean he didn't take on the sudharhan and whirl it. FOr that wouldnt do the job. Infact all the dasavataras are form fitted to suit the task at hand.

So same way TSP has to be enticed to do the needful. However the enticement has to be what the new Pakiasura (Pakisuar) wants and not what we want. The biggest kick for Pakisuar is to see a prostrate/supine India. The more supine India gets the more outrageous the Pakisuar gets. Eventually in a meglomaniac fit they self-destruct.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 21 Apr 2011 22:35

So same way TSP has to be enticed to do the needful. However the enticement has to be what the new Pakiasura (Pakisuar) wants and not what we want. The biggest kick for Pakisuar is to see a prostrate/supine India. The more supine India gets the more outrageous the Pakisuar gets. Eventually in a meglomaniac fit they self destruct.

So MMS is modern day Mohini avatara. Where is CRams?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Apr 2011 23:25

I have read a theory about the Lanka in Ramayanam not being the present day Srilanka, but a Lanka that was situated in the mainland, in the hearts of India, across a river. And then I read the below sentences:

It is the Silappadhikaram that is responsible for the statement in the body of the work, 1 not merely in the prologue, that Gajabahu of ' the Lanka surrounded by the sea ' was present at the consecration of the temple to Pattini Devi. Lanka is defined as surrounded by the seas for very good reasons. There were other Lankas on the continent of India, and the attribute therefore is called for in order, that the ruler of Lanka may not be mistaken for those on the continent of India.

The above quote is by S.K.Aiyangar* in his book "Manimekhalai In Its Historical Setting" published in 1928.

So any BRF guru can talk a little more about these Lankas? Google Chacha does not help much.

* More details about the author, lest some think he is itsy bitsy do kowdi ka author
- RAO BAHADUR S. KRISHNASWAMI AIYANGAR, M.A., HONY, PH.D.
Professor of Indian History and Archeology, University of Madras.
Reader> Calcutta University,
Honorary Correspondent of the Archaeological Department of the Government of India.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 21 Apr 2011 23:28

in andhra pradesh, many island villages in the delta areas are called "lanka villages"

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Apr 2011 23:33

Lanka means island. All those delta islands are called lankas in Telugu.

saadhak · Post by **saadhak** » 22 Apr 2011 00:18

ramana wrote:One has to read our epics an puranas to understand how to apply them to modern issues with bad neighbors.

Sir, advice from Sundarkaand:

1. Ram says to Lakshman:
Supplication before an idiot, friendship with a rogue, inculcating liberality on a born miser, talking wisdom to one steeped in worldliness, glorifying dispassion before a man of excessive greed, a lecture on mindcontrol to an irascible man and a discourse on the exploits of Sri Hari to a libidinous person are as futile as sowing seeds in a barren land.

2. Kakabhusundi to Garud:
Though one may take infinite pains in watering a plantain, it will not bear fruit unless it is hewed. Similar, mark me, O king of birds, a vile fellow heeds no prayer but yields only when reprimanded.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 22 Apr 2011 01:08

1. Ram says to Lakshman:
Supplication before an idiot, friendship with a rogue, inculcating liberality on a born miser, talking wisdom to one steeped in worldliness, glorifying dispassion before a man of excessive greed, a lecture on mindcontrol to an irascible man and a discourse on the exploits of Sri Hari to a libidinous person are as futile as sowing seeds in a barren land.

लछिमन बान सरासन आनू। सोषौं बारिधि बिसिख कृसानू॥
सठ सन बिनय कुटिल सन प्रीती। सहज कृपन सन सुंदर नीती॥
ममता रत सन ग्यान कहानी। अति लोभी सन बिरति बखानी॥
क्रोधिहि सम कामिहि हरि कथा। ऊसर बीज बएँ फल जथा॥
अस कहि रघुपति चाप चढ़ावा। यह मत लछिमन के मन भावा॥
संघानेउ प्रभु बिसिख कराला। उठी उदधि उर अंतर ज्वाला॥
मकर उरग झष गन अकुलाने। जरत जंतु जलनिधि जब जाने॥
कनक थार भरि मनि गन नाना। बिप्र रूप आयउ तजि माना॥

2. Kakabhusundi to Garud:
Though one may take infinite pains in watering a plantain, it will not bear fruit unless it is hewed. Similar, mark me, O king of birds, a vile fellow heeds no prayer but yields only when reprimanded.

दोहा- काटेहिं पइ कदरी फरइ कोटि जतन कोउ सींच।
बिनय न मान खगेस सुनु डाटेहिं पइ नव नीच॥५८॥

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Apr 2011 01:10

Yes,
However the Puranas also tell us how to deal with vile fellows with special dispensation.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Apr 2011 02:05

ramana wrote:Lanka means island. All those delta islands are called lankas in Telugu.

The Sanskrit dictionary does not give that meaning, does it mean a island in Telugu?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Apr 2011 02:10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanka

Lanka (Sanskrit: लंका lankā meaning "island", Malay: Langkapuri, Tamil: Ilankai, Javanese: Alengka) is the name given in Hindu mythology to the island fortress capital of the legendary king Ravana in the great Hindu epics, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. The fortress was situated on a plateau between three mountain peaks known as the Trikuta Mountains. The ancient capital city of Lanka is thought to have been burnt down by Lord Hanuman.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Apr 2011 21:37

^^^
Adhu telisuandi

I was curious about the other Lankas Aiyangar mentions.

What is the exact word Valmiki uses in the Ramayana? And how does he describe the flora and fauna? People who have read Ramayana in Sanskrit can you throw some light?

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 24 Apr 2011 09:59

In Bangla, lanka means "chilly pepper". What is the basis of this meaning? Were chillies produced and imported from Sri Lanka? Is there a similar meaning in other Indian languages?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Apr 2011 18:00

^^not entirely impossible. Although some of the hottest chillies appear to occur native in NE India, chillies are supposed to have greatest variation in Meso-America and hence one theory is that they originated/selected there and then spread out. The Naga mirchi however might point to ancient commerce across the oceans way before European dominance of the seas. In this case, since Tamils are reputed to have crossed the oceans, or the "proto" Tamils - the generic ocean going cultures of the coastal south - (who might not yet have formed the Peryiar-Karuna style of origin myths) could have brought and cultivated or propagated the "chilli".

I think the off-shore small-isalnd based port-cities that probably existed in the late ice-age - all along the coasts - both east and west, were generically called "lanka". It does not have to be about the largest among them. So for Bengal delta things coming from the south from such port-cities could become identified with "lanka".

at least two points of reference therefore comes up for this trade : copper and chilli. Both appear in usage and place names uniquely for Bengal delta and the south, and uncannily also occur in Meso-America. Taprobane/Tamroparni was the ancient name for Sri-Lanka ("the best/greatest/most beautiful of the islands") as known outside, and Tamrolipti(o) was an ancient centre of Bengal delta. Copper (especially a special mineral called ori-calcum) and chilli both are persistent themes in Meso-american cultures.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 24 Apr 2011 18:58

I think the off-shore small-isalnd based port-cities that probably existed in the late ice-age - all along the coasts - both east and west, were generically called "lanka".

The last ice-age existing until 10,000 years ago. So is the word that old? If yes, then you are talking about trade that is 10-12 thousand year old. Can you point to sources for further reading?

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 24 Apr 2011 21:32

brihaspati wrote:^^not entirely impossible. Although some of the hottest chillies appear to occur native in NE India, chillies are supposed to have greatest variation in Meso-America and hence one theory is that they originated/selected there and then spread out. The Naga mirchi however might point to ancient commerce across the oceans way before European dominance of the seas. In this case, since Tamils are reputed to have crossed the oceans, or the "proto" Tamils - the generic ocean going cultures of the coastal south - (who might not yet have formed the Peryiar-Karuna style of origin myths) could have brought and cultivated or propagated the "chilli".

We've heard the story of 2 brother-gods taking up a bet that whoever completes a journey around the world in the shortest time would be the winner of a grand prize awarded by the parents (Shiva-Shakti). Suitably interpreted, it could mean that 2 branches of a sea-faring tribe carried out an ocean journey to the lands on the other end of the globe far before Ferdinand Magellan or any European. Also, the brother who lost the race, established the pantheon in far-away lands, we find many of them in South India.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Apr 2011 03:51

SwamyG wrote:
I think the off-shore small-isalnd based port-cities that probably existed in the late ice-age - all along the coasts - both east and west, were generically called "lanka".
The last ice-age existing until 10,000 years ago. So is the word that old? If yes, then you are talking about trade that is 10-12 thousand year old. Can you point to sources for further reading?

More accurately speaking I should have said the relevant rise of sea-levels took place in spurts, that would have progressively separated idalnds off the mainland and submerged them. This Would have happened around 10,500 BCE, 8000 BCE, 5700 BCE, 3700 BCE, 1400 BCE. The last "solid" land bridge connection to what is now Sri-Lanka was around 5700 BCE when there was a possible very rapid massive upsurge.

The data points in my scope are from both narratives and marine archeology. You must be aware of the narratives of the Sangam and loss of Kumari Kandyam around 10,000 BCE. I am not saying we must accept the "extending to Oz" and half the IO claims. But think of it as a coastal strip - which even now can be read off from depth data. Roughly go down approximately 100 metres. [In places it could be 90-150].

The second point is that of the legend of Shakol dwipa which was apparently lost in the Bengal delta. [Connected to Sagar and legend of Bhagirath - whose bringing of Ganga back would correspond to the arid period during the late ice age, when we have evidence for lesser freshwater discharge into both sides of the IO]. Also similarly consider the possible off-shore island based cities around Saurashtra coast - estimated tentatively around 5700 BCE.

See as in Bengal delta, it could also be delta islands which got submerged. In the dry late ice age, the delta would collect sufficient water from the collected wash upstream. Moreover they would proivide coastal trade and sailing opportunities.

I dont know whether the word is 10,000 years old. But neither can we rule out language or proto-words at that period. Some time ago I mentioned about the "tra" root in IE. I explored the possibility of various connections, and showed that in one direction it would make sense only if we assumed that the linguistic branches split before at least 17,000.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Apr 2011 06:07

Erudite rakshaks,

I read today in a telugu news paper that Kurukshetra is believed to be the birth place of river Saraswati. Any idea?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 25 Apr 2011 08:42

Saraswati source is much higher, AFAIK. according to Mahabharatam, Saraswati is to the North of Kurukshetra.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Apr 2011 16:58

If the current location of "Kurus" are accepted - then north of that does lie in the "piedmont" Himachal/Northern Uttaranchal Himalayan first fold. Saraswati has moved around quite a bit in its time. Given the general tendency of rivers to flow clockwise in the northern hemisphere, the river channels wuld likely have split (there ar emany channels obvious in satellite pics). So the Saraswati proper could be the earlier more northern channel which later on dried a bit giving the southern channels (Gharghara) more juice. The Kurus could have settled in that doab.

There is also ref to the region of "uttar kuru". People could have named their rivers in their new migration areas according to the old river of their origins. So the later Afghan Haraxvati could have formed when some of the "Kurus" possibly moved out at the end of the epic period. This could also happend because at a later stage since they appear to have been defeated and absorbed by the Kasi clan - some could have move out north instead of getting absorbed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Apr 2011 20:15

Bji, Could the Raghuvanshi Bagirath story of brinigng Ganga be the first signs of Saraswati river drying up and the shift of the Indus-Saraswati basin to Ganga-Jamuna basin?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Apr 2011 20:44

Bhagiratha is before Rama.

Manu > Ikshvaaku > Kukshi > Vikukshi > Baana > Anaranya > Pruthu > Trishanku > Dhundumaara > Yuvanaashva > Mandhaata > Susandhi > Dhruvasandhi > Prasenajit > Bharata > Asita > Sagara > Asamanja > Amshuman > Diliipa > Bhageeratha > Kakutstha > Raghu > Pravriddha > Shankana > Sudarshana > Agnivarsna > Shiigraga > Maru > Prashushruka > Ambariisha > Nahusha > Yayaati > Naabhaaga > Aja > Dasharatha > Rama

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 25 Apr 2011 20:55

RamaYji, I was reading about the story of Kalyavaan and Shri Krishna. Muchkand the person responsible for burning Kalyavan to ashes is said to be from Ikshvaku vansh. And the story of his going to sleep also refers to Terta yug, are you aware where in the succession line does he appear? Is there info about the Ikshvaku vansh after Rama?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Added Later: Shri Krishna serial by Ramanand Sagar refers to this story, and in that Muchkand identifies himself as the son of Maandhata. So apparently, the list mentioned in the Ramayana consists of some and not all the generations.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Apr 2011 21:21

Prahaar ji,

That above family tree is from Ramayana, Seeta Swayamvara episode. Sage Vashista tells Rama's lineage as part of marriage process. As mentioned earlier, these names could indicate the key figures and their lineages. For example Dasaratha is said to have ruled 65,000 years before Putrakamesthi and every Ayodhya ruler before him is called Dasaratha (his birth name is different - will try to get it). If we think that Dasaratha's lineage (sub-lineage if you will) ruled Ayodhya for 65,000 years before Rama, who started a new lineage ruling Ayodhya for 10,000 years....

Another approach is what B'ji suggested. Divide the numbers by 1000 and 100 based on the period.

At these time scales, getting the name of every offspring of every king becomes virtually impossible. Let's see...

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 25 Apr 2011 21:51

Thanks, for the explanation.

About the related story: The boon that Muchkand asks i.e. Allow him to sleep to his content, does not fit properly if taken literally but seems to indicate hiatus from limelight (do not know what it could be). Because, a person who has come to know that his family, kingdom is no more due to the large time lapse on earth corresponding to the 1 year Devta varsh, would not suddenly request long sleep. Another aspect is the existence of human colonies outside of the planet earth (reminds one of relativity of time theory). Is it possible that these stories record some space travel memes from our forefathers? Is it too wild? Different time scales might be something as simple as different time units used in different kingdoms.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Apr 2011 23:56

^ in Yoga awareness at each chakra represents a urthva loka

Bhoo------Bhuva:-------Suvah:---Maha:---Jana:------Tapa:-Satya
Muladhara-Swadhisthana-Manipura-Anahata-Vishuddha-Ajna---Sahasrara

In that Satya loka one should get Brahma vidya to achieve Moksha (Ref: Kathopanishad).

There is also another concept that awareness at each level increases one's ability defy time (both directions) to the extent that one can be aware of truth in that multiple. In that concept when one moves the focus away from Bhrumadhya (Chit-Akasa) to deeper centers of awareness, one can go back in time… theory is that when the awareness goes back to the moment before creation and stays there, it is equivalent to moksha (joining nirguna param brahma) (For modern equivalent read - Life between lives)

***
Of course, this awareness has to be experienced. It is like someone knowing how planes and flight-services work but never flew in a plane; Vs someone who flies but doesn’t know the infra/process behind it; Vs someone who flew in a plane and also knows the technology in and out…

This is as modern as modern science, that is why it is called ‘Sanatana Dharma’/

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Apr 2011 00:13

I just read a news item which says that Banabhattu (writer of Kadambari) wrote an auto biography in 7th century (He was in Harsha Vardhana's assembly). Any idea?

OK Found it...

A great poet of India, Banabhatta was born around the 7th century in a village in India. Born in a Brahman family, he was a poor but clever child. Even during his childhood, he showed signs of great potential and finished his education with much dedication and hard work. He was the son of a learned Brahman and went on to become one of the greatest poets of India. He served at the court of King Harshavardhana of Kanauj. The life history of Banabhatta is very interesting and he went on to become a renowned Sanskrit scholar. The biography of Banabhatta is a pleasure to read and know about.

This poetic genius wrote one of the most famous and earliest novels, known as "Kadambari". It is a biographical work of Harsha and Kadambari. A very famous Sanskrit pun about Kadambari is as follows:

"Kadambari Rasajnaanaam aahaaropi na rochate"

This means that while one reads the Kadambari, one becomes so engrossed in it that even food is forgotten. It is a very famous oratory pun used in Sanskrit.

Kadambari on google books

Good source for biographies of great Indians http://www.bharatadesam.com go to biographies section

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Apr 2011 00:52

ramana ji and RamaY ji,

here are my thoughts :
(1) Bhagirath could be bringing back Ganges - at the post-Younger Dryas stage which in India at least for the aridity levels - roughly correspond to 9000-8000 BCE. [This is not very clear temperature wise in the subcontinent - in Europe this period is taken to be 10,900-9,500- but I am basing on the aridity indicators].

What could be happening is that all glacial rivers had decreased in flow during the late ice age before 10,500 BCE. [Indicated in ocean cores especially in IOR on two sides of the peninsula - meaning both the indus side and the Ganga side dried up a bit]. Ganga most probably has been flowing for a very long time, so it merely dried up a bit because of weak ice-age monsoon.

In 10,500 the first phase of large scale deglaciation, possible ice-dam collapse, and rapid sea-level rise with strengthening monsoon would have fed the rivers again. So for say around the first 1000 years, the rivers swelled, reaching an initial sea-level rise to roughly 9,500. Then the aridity kicks in, and it begins to dry up again to a peak at around 8,000 BCE.

If we take an average of 25 yrs/generation, the time diff from Manu to Bhagirath (by RamaY ji's list) is roughly 500 years. If Vaivaswat Manu (connected to matsya and a Noah like story) is associated with escaping early human from flood waters, then it could tentatively placed at around 10,500. However there exists other lists which give roughly 50 generations from Vaivaswat to Bhagirath (which gives 1000-1200 years). After 500 years by RamaYji's list, or by the other reckoning around 9000 in Bhagirath's time the Ganges would have reduced in flow - so it is possible that he took initiatives in digging irrigation channels to better use existing water channels. Note that this is roughly the time when it is "guessed" that agriculture started - although it is supposed to have taken place only in the Caucasus/Kurdistan - 9000 BCE.

by the above list, Rama would come roughly 400 years later -(by the other count roughly 19 generations so 500 years) that is 8600 BCE (or 8500). Since this was a dry period - Rama's movement south - which is also uncannily through the eastern parts of the subcontinent, specifically the middle GV, down through the Bihar/eastern MP, Andhra sector to the coast - could have been about need for land and expansion of agriculture as well as trade routes. This came into conflict with the coastal maritime cultures, which were perhaps port-island based - who were also losing their islands before the rising sea, and pushing ashore for living space. It is possible that Rama was simply trying to regain his clan/peoples stake on the maritime trade that they seem to have been associated with in their lower Ganges delta phase - but from which the far south was trying to exclude them. Harder conditions up stream could have pushe dthem down again and started the core of the Ramayana conflict.

(2) Melt water began to increase and monsoon increased from 8000 BCE again, which would probably give rise to a sudden large release of water opening one or more channels across the northern planes. This would be Saraswati. Over time its northern or bigger channel could have reduced a bit or simultaneously there was a smaller more southerly channel - both flowing NE->SW into the saurashta coast. The two channels could have carried on until about 2000 BCE. The doab region would be good for "Kurus" to settle at a later stage.

(3) The sea-level rise went on with a major decadal level peak around 5700 BCE. My hypothesis would be that the coastal settlements in the initial phase - growing from 7000-6000 BCE would ahve coalesced into large urban maritime cultures in teh lower delta region. But the rapid sea-rise around 5700 would have submerged them, and this was the story that got later on inter-woven into Dwarka submergence [the urbanization that was found by S.R.Rao].

Krishna is actually supposed to have recovered land from the sea to put up his city - this could not have happened at the time of rising waters. In fact from 5700, there is a slight decrease in sea levels - roughly by about 3 metres to 3100 BCE. So that period fits in with Krishna recovering land from the sea. There was a real war over land perhaps around 3100 BCE by which time Saraswati - the more northern channel was beginning to reduce in flow. There was some sort of climatic disruption felt globally around the 3100 date, and this could be the backdrop for the Kuru-war for natural resources [ with a hint lying in the main reason for the war ultimately given as a fight over "medini"].

(4) The Ganges culture of Bhagirath lineage distinctly shows an eastern bent - with the connection to Sagar, and Rama - showing a gradual move up from the delta towards upper GV. They might have simply been expanding as the northern plains became more habitable after ice-age retreated. They are also seen as "solar" dynasty - and we should note that Krishna sent Samba to be cured - to Orissa, which remained an ancient site for sun worship.

(5) The lunar dynasty shows much longer reign counts. One possibility is that they used a shorter lunar cycle based calendar at an earlier phase of reckoning which was handed down over generations - so that later scribes copied them faithfully but mixed them up with longer counts prevalent in their own times [which is rather unlikely]. Another possibility is that they used "daiva-varsha" which is roughly 360 earth years - to multiply founder dynastic reign lengths because they thought of them as divine. So we should interpret 18,000 year reign become roughly 53 years?

Of course the relativistic time has been suggested. Possible. But then it would be difficult to establish. In any case what I am suggesting is also based on a kind of speculation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Apr 2011 01:00

very good explanation for all the events. So was Kashyapa draining the Kashmir valley an ice dam melt or some such thing and where did the waters flow from it? Was it related to the origination of Indus or Saraswati River in 2) above?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Apr 2011 01:33

Kashyapa would be father of Vivaswan. So he would be in the time frame for the first probable ice-dam bursting in Kashmir. If we think of that dam-burst creating floods and local marshes or lakes or overflows in the foothills or Punjab area, it is possible that Manu - his son - got on a boat with family and animals and seeds they were previously experimenting with and sought more stable, less flood prone lands. If they had already been a maritime culture, they could have expanded or moved away from the vast flood plains in the north and moved towards the GV - either along the coastal routes or straight across the GV.

Early human expansion has been estimated as approximately 100km/generation. By a similar calculation in 10-12 generations they should be at the mouth of the Ganges delta. Or they might have already known about it before from coastal trade.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Apr 2011 01:36

Bji,

Today's 'soma' will be a toast to you

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Apr 2011 01:43

RamY, Before the toast can you put a timeline and Bjis facts to make it easy for folks!