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Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 17 Apr 2011 13:49

India to order 8 minesweepers from S. Korea
India is all set to place an order with a South Korean shipyard for building eight minesweepers for its navy in its quest to overhaul its existing fleet of such specialised warships, defence ministry sources say.

The ministry has zeroed in on Pusan-based Kangnam Corporation as the lowest bidder that is technically qualified to execute the order for which Italian firm Intermarine was among the shortlisted companies.

"The defence ministry has initiated cost negotiations with Kangnam Corporation that is expected to be completed in a month or two, when the order will be finally placed," a senior defence ministry official told IANS.

Though the final price is yet to be fixed, it is likely to be in the region of Rs.3,000 crore ($670 million) for each of the eight warships, defence ministry sources have indicated.

As per the tenders for the Mine Counter-Measure Vessels (MCMV), Kangnam will be asked to build the first two warships, following which Goa Shipyard Limited will be commissioned to build the rest six minesweepers under licensed technology transfer.

Minesweepers are specialised warships capable of detonating sea mines.

These eight vessels will be capable of playing the roles of both minesweepers and minehunters and hence will lie somewhere in between the two in terms of its capabilities, the official said.

The contract, which was originally scheduled for signing this month, got delayed as the Kangnam's competitors went to the Central Vigilance Commission (CVC) against its selection.

But after the defence ministry and the navy explained the rationality of Kangnam's selection as the lowest bidder to the CVC, the matter was settled and the cost negotiations are now progressing well, he added.

The navy currently operates 12 minesweepers of the Pondicherry/Karwar class that are equally divided between the two operational Mumbai-based Western Naval Command and Visakhapatnam-based Eastern Naval Command for deployment.

The Pondicherry/Karwar class of warships, built in the 1970s and 1980s, are fast approaching obsolescence and need to be replaced within this decade.

Kangnam will deliver the first two MCMVs by 2016 and Goa Shipyard Limited will complete its side of the contract by 2018.

The navy is also considering buying two used Osprey-class minesweepers from the US that were decommissioned by the US Navy in 2007. The US Congress has already cleared the prospective sale of these two vessels to friendly countries.

The Obama administration had in 2010 offered these two minesweepers to India, which had expressed its interest in acquiring them in April 2005.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 17 Apr 2011 15:08

Vice Admiral DK Joshi to take over as Western Naval Command chief

ANC and WC will get his good experience on both fronts.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 17 Apr 2011 15:49

ramana wrote:IN used to fly from Rajali to SCS in the mid 80s to monitor the PLAN subs. Maybe they do it still.


Rajali was commissioned in the mid 90s and the 142 were commissioned by late 80s around 88 or 89 onlee. Before that it was the 38 and the super conies onlee. Neither had the range or the endurance to get to SCS from the main land and have a reasonable patrol time.


So I think that you wanted to say mid 90s and not the mid 80s.

The P8 will make a return to those time as it lacks the endurance of the 142s. You can argue that with IFR the range and endurance can be addressed. But, just how many IFR assets will be available with the IN for them to make a great difference. The range issue will remain even if you are based out of A&N islands. The alternative is to have a presence in Vietnam it self with Singapore and the A&N acting as a back stop.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 17 Apr 2011 18:32

India Eyes German Help on Sub Upgrade

Image
India Eyes German Help on Sub Upgrade
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
Published: 15 Apr 2011

NEW DELHI - Construction delays to four French-designed submarines have led India to reverse an 11-year-old decision and seek German help to upgrade four older subs.

Estimated to cost about $500 million, the upgrade of the four HDW T-1500-class subs will replace their weapon control systems, data links, torpedoes and missiles. The Indian defense ministry wants the German submarines to be upgraded at Indian facilities with technical assistance from HDW Germany.

The Indian Navy has seen its fleet of usable submarines shrink from 21 in the 1980s to 14 today, while the Chinese sub fleet, including nuclear boats, grows, said a Navy official.

In 2000, when the Navy decided to buy the new Scorpene submarines, it shelved plans to upgrade the T-1500s, which have now been in disrepair for several years.

The French-designed boats, now planned or under licensed production by Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL), are more than three years behind schedule, a senior defense ministry official said.

Under the $3.9 billion contract signed in 2005 with France, construction of the first three Scorpenes began in December 2006, December 2007 and August 2008. The MDL contract said the six subs were to be delivered annually beginning in December 2012. Instead, the first one is now scheduled for delivery in 2015.

Besides the Scorpene troubles, the Navy is also seeing delays in its $10 billion purchase of air-independent-propulsion submarines, the official said. The world's sub builders are expected to be invited to bid on the job, called Project 75I, in the next three months, the Navy official said.

The T-1500s were built under an $89 million deal signed in 1983. HDW's shipyard in Germany built two of the T-1500s in 56 months apiece; the other two were built under license by MDL, taking 98 months and 116 months respectively.

Later in the decade, New Delhi blacklisted HDW because of alleged bribery in the sub deal. The ban was lifted after an inquest by India's Central Bureau of Investigation ended without resolution.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 17 Apr 2011 21:29

so each minesweeper is coming in for 500 mil plus. this is exactly what i was pointing out in a discussion with srai many moons ago. the days of 2500 crore destroyer are over and India is not taking advantage of its cheaper manpower by keeping the productivity of its yards low ...

Also there is this school of thought in the navy that one hi-tech ship is better than 10 medium ones. which is why they are going along with huge delays and cost escalations.

if this is the philosophy we are going to adopt in the military buildup then how the hell do we expect to counter china which is churning out PSCs like pancakes using its superb shipbuilding industry?

this import raj and best tech chahiye raj is simply making a developing India procure weapons at developed country prices and not allowing the indigenous eco-system to scale up because of piecemeal orders of "very hi-tech" boats coming in at fantastic prices.

The writing is on the wall gentlemen. I'll give the weapons industry in the west another 10 maybe 20 years. After which they would have simply priced themselves out of the market and the chinese would become the new russia. India has the chance of becoming the new france or even america twenty years from now, if it only stopped subsidizing foreign weapon makers and built its own base by understanding that quantity does have a quality of its own.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 18 Apr 2011 12:53

Lalmohan wrote:the thing with the PLAN is that any surface fleet threatening india has to come through malacca or go a long long way around... by then any serious invasion fleet will have to have come past a number of navies en route including unkil. even assuming that the others are colluding, unkil would be very unhappy with a large PLAN surface fleet on the move

subs are a different matter though


That is no longer the case. With the String of pearls reaching is logical conclusions, Chinese ships might not need to cross the Malacca straits all together. They might be already present there after this decade is over. We have already seen PLAAN ships in action off the coast of somalia. So going forward this presence will only grow.

We should not be working under the impression that chinese ships will come from their bases in south china sea. Rather we have to start planning that they will already be present in the Ocean which bears our name.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Apr 2011 14:33

ideally china would prefer to station some submarines and ships in gwader or ormara to keep india and unkil both under threat.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 18 Apr 2011 14:40

christopher, we discuss this topic every couple of weeks it seems. please tell me what is the minimum fleet PLAN will have to base at any of the SoP' bases in order to have a self sufficient force ? do they have that much force to spare right now, given their commitments nearer to home ? when, realistically speaking will PLAN have such a force, keeping in mind the force levels of their adversaries ?

deploying a destroyer with a supply ship is a completely different ball game from deploying a 10-12 ship flotilla.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 18 Apr 2011 15:20

Currently the Chinese do not have the capability to deploy 10-12 ship flotilla in Indian ocean. But what they will have by the end of the decade is the ability to station submarines in the Indian ocean region not only in Pakistan but also in Burma. That is provided they have not done so already.

And these forces need not be a self-sufficient forces. Rather from Burma they will be able to refuel and replenish their stock and men. They will initially be raiding parties, with the primary aim being breaking any blockade of the straits of mallaca or the Selat Lombok(Lombok Strait). And the beauty is that they will not need to be a 10-12 ship flotilla.

This is provided one only assumes that we will be facing Chinese submarines only in case of a conflict with China.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 18 Apr 2011 15:28

numbers, numbers ! show me the numbers ! which are the ships that PLAN can spare to deploy away from home.

self sufficient as in militarily self-sufficient, not just logistics. piecemeal deployments will become targets of a turkey shoot, PLAN is not stupid enough to do that. burma is not yet a province of PRC and might never be. assuming a PLAN base in burma as a foregone conclusion is rather simplistic.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 18 Apr 2011 16:14

Burma need not become a province of PRC. Without becoming province of PRC they can still give berthing facilities to the Chinese submarines. And I have specifically pointed out Burma, due to its proximity to southern china.

Numbers you ask. Well among the current submarines of PRC, the most likely candidates for service in Indian Ocean will be the Type 041 conventional submarine and Type 093 SSN. Assuming that by the end of this decade there are 8 Type 093 type SSN in service and equal number of Type 041, we can expect PRC to be able to field 35-50% of this combined strength into Indian Ocean. I have considered Type 093 and not Type 094, because on first look it appears that Type 094 will carry long range SLBMs. i.e. Type 094 most probably will be a SSBN while Type 093 will be used as a attack SSN.
The other conventional submarine platforms will not be suitable, unless and until PLAN admirals are going to carry out suicide missions, in Indian Ocean.

With 35% strength dedicated to the Indian Ocean, we can expect 2-3 Type 093 and 2-3 Type 041. So we can assume 4-6 submarines operating in Indian Ocean to say the least by the end of this decade. I am working with a scenario of 35% deployment in normal times and going upto 50% in case of a war with Pakistan and or china.

This is provided that the taiwan straits are largely peaceful and PLAAN growth is unabated.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 19 Apr 2011 02:45

Indian warships arrive in Vladivostok
The warships from the Eastern Fleet are commanded by Rear Admiral Bisht will hold sea-manoeuvres with the Russian Navy's massive anti-submarine ship Admiral Tributz. The Pacific Fleet command and the Vladivostok mayor will receive the Indian naval sailors.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 19 Apr 2011 05:17

Suspicious Danish ship detained off Mumbai coast
Initial Intelligence report suggested illegals arms, turned out to be a false alarm. However there are 2 former members of the Royal Navy (UK) who do not have visa to transit through Mumbai. Intelligence members are interrogating their purpose

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 19 Apr 2011 13:51


The naval bases around Vladivostok, esp Bolshoy Kamen are where the INS Chakra is currently based.

Perhaps the Chakra will be escorting these ships back home to Vizag.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 19 Apr 2011 15:03

CS, as I said, burma providing berthing facilities to PLAN is not a foregone conclusion. the chinese province comment was tongue-in-cheek but you seem to have missed it. secondly it is not easy for diesel subs to deploy around our seas from SCS due to limitations of endurance, check the transit routes.
all the subs PLAN is projected to get this decade will be needed to police their own backwaters, give or take a couple.

p.s. this is going OT. please take your reply to china mil thread.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 19 Apr 2011 15:47


SNaik
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 19 Apr 2011 16:23

Teg being loaded with Brahmos canisters
http://foto.rg.ru/gall/465cd33e

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ranjithnath » 19 Apr 2011 17:01

^^^link not working.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 19 Apr 2011 20:47

^ It's working for me (try to flush your DNS cache or use a different browser).

Thanks SNaik.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 20 Apr 2011 22:35

SNaik wrote:Teg being loaded with Brahmos canisters
http://foto.rg.ru/gall/465cd33e

Thanks for the link, launcher do differ in appearance than the Brahmos L&T launchers?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 21 Apr 2011 20:04

Something is fishy with NDTV.

Today in the morning they were talking about TATA's entry into defence production, their deals with Lockheed Martin etc.

Now they are talking the String of Pearl strategy of China.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 22 Apr 2011 15:19


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 26 Apr 2011 18:44

US nuclear submarine docks in Goa

The submarine will undergo minor repairs and maintenance at the Mormugao port. The La Jolla is a Los Angeles-class nuclear-powered fast attack submarine carrying Tomahawk cruise missiles, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, torpedoes and mines.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Apr 2011 22:02

goa is a good RR destination. DG has rice, fish, coconuts and maybe a few escaped monkeys from sailing ships of yore.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 27 Apr 2011 01:50

Marten wrote::eek: There must be a serious issue for it to be parked in Goa instead of Diega Garcia. Why is traveling a thousand odd nautical miles difficult?

Oh, that's because they're on a goodwill visit and not an emergency maintenance stopover. :) How much was the value of the next sub contract? Why bother about AIP when you can go Nuke?


This is goi's way of sending a message to PRC and Pakistan. Meaning India is willing to play ball with US if required, by allowing USN to use Indian ports. What would be interesting, is if USN starts using A&N naval port facilities. That would amount to some one putting their hand in PLAN's underwear (ie. right in the middle of all their ocean going traffic between middle east and Africa).

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Virupaksha » 27 Apr 2011 02:08

VinodTK wrote:
Marten wrote::eek: There must be a serious issue for it to be parked in Goa instead of Diega Garcia. Why is traveling a thousand odd nautical miles difficult?

Oh, that's because they're on a goodwill visit and not an emergency maintenance stopover. :) How much was the value of the next sub contract? Why bother about AIP when you can go Nuke?


This is goi's way of sending a message to PRC and Pakistan. Meaning India is willing to play ball with US if required, by allowing USN to use Indian ports. What would be interesting, is if USN starts using A&N naval port facilities. That would amount to some one putting their hand in PLAN's underwear (ie. right in the middle of all their ocean going traffic between middle east and Africa).

No, that would be US putting hands in our underwear.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Klaus » 27 Apr 2011 02:11

^^^ Any chance of a reciprocal gesture by USN, i.e IN vessels docking at DG in the future?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 27 Apr 2011 03:02

ravi_ku wrote:No, that would be US putting hands in our underwear.

Definitely not, if India is letting US to use its ports, how would that amount to what you are saying. This strategy would start putting pressure on the string of pearls China is trying to put around India. Plus there is no conflict between US and India, it would serve the interests of India and US.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 27 Apr 2011 03:09

Klaus wrote:^^^ Any chance of a reciprocal gesture by USN, i.e IN vessels docking at DG in the future?

Sir what you are saying will come true, over a period of time. Frankly at
present I doubt if IN needs ports so deep into the Indian Ocean.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arun » 27 Apr 2011 07:05

Cochin Shipyard has placed an order for 60 MTU 16V 4000 M90 engines to power 20 Fast Patrol Vessels ordered by the Indian Coast Guard:

Tognum receives substantial follow-up order for Indian Coast Guard

The story regards the awarding of the fast patrol vessel order by the Indian Coast Guard to Cochin Shipyards dating back to October 2010 is here:

CSL gets orders for 20 vessels from Coast Guard

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arunsrinivasan » 27 Apr 2011 09:49

VinodTK wrote:
Klaus wrote:^^^ Any chance of a reciprocal gesture by USN, i.e IN vessels docking at DG in the future?

Sir what you are saying will come true, over a period of time. Frankly at
present I doubt if IN needs ports so deep into the Indian Ocean.


Wasn't this kind of reciprocal arrangement part of the LSA we were supposed to sign with US? Was that ever signed? if I remember correctly it was put on the back burner thanks to Left Front objections.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2011 11:00

that agreement would make it process based and fluid for both parties to call in at each others bases and replenish stuff like food and fuel I believe. payment for berthing and services would be via some central account adjusted periodically.

now its probably on a case by case basis needing more wheels to turn.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 27 Apr 2011 11:41

kmkraoind wrote:US nuclear submarine docks in Goa

The submarine will undergo minor repairs and maintenance at the Mormugao port. The La Jolla is a Los Angeles-class nuclear-powered fast attack submarine carrying Tomahawk cruise missiles, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, torpedoes and mines.


A nuclear submarines primary limitation is the crews endurance. Living in a closed cigar, deprived of all normal human sensory stimulus, takes a massive toll on the crew. With Goa, its beautiful beaches and tropical climate, the crew can have a decent R&R while the submarine is docked there. So this allows them to extend their patrol under the sea.

Regarding the maintenance and repairs, it is more cost effective to do the same in Goa or other IN bases or other Indian ports then in DG. IMHO DG suffers from a dilemma, its isolation. Everything has to be shipped from America, which pushes up the cost. One of the primary reason why USN wants access to IN bases is the cost factor. As long as it is reciprocated, i.e. we get access to Guam and DG this should be encouraged. What we should watch out is the call for making such trips as some sort of an alliance or a pact. That should be avoided like plague or nuclear waste.

One other way of looking at it is, USN might indirectly give India a look at some of its most advanced SSN/SSBN.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby indranilroy » 27 Apr 2011 12:38

I have a newbie question here ... I have always read about how the propellers of a sub are never exposed. If a US sub calls into a foreign shipyard, how is this achieved? Or is this compromised based on trust? I mean the Russians ofcourse know the signature of our subs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Apr 2011 12:42

indranilroy wrote:I have a newbie question here ... I have always read about how the propellers of a sub are never exposed. If a US sub calls into a foreign shipyard, how is this achieved? Or is this compromised based on trust? I mean the Russians ofcourse know the signature of our subs.


There are quite a few pictures of propellers of LA ,Ohio ,Akula ,Kilo ,T-209 etc etc ....props not getting exposed is just an urban myth , though the pics are not as wide spread

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2011 13:47

they do wrap it in plastic in drydock ceremonies.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 27 Apr 2011 13:56

The sole Indian carrier was then under refit, so the navy carried out trials using a containership’s deck as a platform for Sea Harrier aircraft.


I've read this from some military forum recently.

Can anyone verify the authenticity of this claim?

If true, this is a major capability booster for any naval Air arm.
Last edited by koti on 27 Apr 2011 14:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 27 Apr 2011 13:59


Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Apr 2011 14:14

koti wrote:
The sole Indian carrier was then under refit, so the navy carried out trials using a containership’s deck as a platform for Sea Harrier aircraft.


Can anyone verify the authenticity of this claim?

If true, this is a major capability booster for any naval Air arm.


That was just a stop gap measure ( and a desperate one ) during Kargil war since Viraat as usual was in refit. Since SHAR could take off and land vertically but that was a desperate solution for desperate moments to make use of Harrier.

Viraat is like Lipstick on a Pig , it does not have a strong air component , most of the time its in docks for maintenance or refit and when it was badly needed during Kargil and 26/11 it was in refit , frankly speaking we are no better with Viraat then we are without it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby merlin » 27 Apr 2011 15:38

Viraat enables keeping skills current and preventing them from being atrophied.


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