Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 26 Apr 2011 05:24

I think I need to ask admins to make moi admin of this thread

wholesale purges on certain words

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Apr 2011 08:36

Even IB? According to wiki, RAW is the only external intelligence agency with IB and others being internal only. Is wiki wrong with this? I guess it wouldn't be too surprising if it is

Not really...IB theoretically doesn't operate outside India but lots of action in Pak, Nepal, BD has been attributed to IB.

Also, M.K.Dhar in his book "Open secrets" mentions the fierce rivalry between IB and RAW wherein RAW refuses to provide any meaningful info on neighbors to IB and so, IB was raising its own scouts/agents to operate outside India ( Dhar himself had selected and inserted a Afghan refugee into a Paki terror camp in the 90s to give info on what these camps were upto and RAW wasn't even aware of such a mole)

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Apr 2011 08:52

rohitvats wrote:CJ, SFF has/had a very specific mandate - anit-China operations. SFF is more on the lines of elite infantry regiment.***
ajorudaisingh.com/biography.htm[/url] - It is a site dedicated to an IA officer (Ex-Para(SF) and SG)..who died fighting insurgency in valley.

Here is the letter from CO of SG or 22SF to his parents (from same website): http://majorudaisingh.com/letters/thapa.jpg

SFF was used in almost all major security events like 1971, protection to PM, bluestar etc. That's why they are demanding pensions and other benefits.

The SG you are talking about is the parent of NSG.

pkpandey is asking a different Q. SFF was the R&AW unit.

I think you have got this confused.

Here is what I know

1) CIA forms Tibetian Resistence
2) R&AW takes over SFF.
3) Part of SFF is sent for CI training to form SG. They go on to be the parent of other SF units in the country. Thy are not covert ops guys of R&AW. This is what you are talking about.
4) SFF continues to be the R&AW unit.
5) in late 1990's, IK Gujaral discontinues covert ops.
6) SFF is retained but is at the discretion of PMO

What could be expected:
7) Army wants this unit,
8 ) ITBP is given more men. It also gets an intelligence unit.
9) it will be interesting to know is 7) happens or 8 ) will be ultimately SFF's first line of defence against north.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Apr 2011 08:56

is there a listing on the web somewhere of all the seaborne ops undertaken by marcos units against the LTTE in the long years between the IPKF withdrawal and the LTTEs end ? someone had posted a list of Op names in br a while back.
SL navy also organized atleast one 2000km expedition using modified merchant ships equipped with guns to hunt and sink the LTTE high seas arms supply ships way off near the nicobar islands somewhere....perhaps discreet indian surveillance was provided to tip them off and keep them updated...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Apr 2011 09:08

^^^^ the seaborne anti-LTTE excercise was carried out by Indian marine Special Force. they changed the name to MARCOS. Indian today brought out the story when they sunk LTTE boats at Jaffna. Subsequently, IN ships entered jaffana with IPKF.

The story is that they swam from an IN ship 30 kms (unsure of this, but it definitely was a long distance), started putting up charges. They were spotted and fired upon. One received a bullet in his arm. They swam back. In the night, they again there at jaffna, finished their task and came back to the ship. The LTTE boats were sunk.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Apr 2011 09:35

no it was after IPKF came out of SL. these ops like "op tazz" "op tasha" were the names I recall...ltte biggie krishna kumar alias kittu died in one of these when his cargo ship caught fire....

was watching the Nth rerun if "navy seals" last night . have to say for a early 1980s film the gear and general screenplay was very good and might look contemporary even today except a few bits like predator imagery beamed into rugged laptops and better NVGs. the HALO jump from the C130 into the sea was great. and the general mahaul of san diego mil base area was shown nicely...usual collection of hard drinkers and hard brawlers

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 Apr 2011 14:05

chackojoseph wrote:The SG you are talking about is the parent of NSG............
3) Part of SFF is sent for CI training to form SG. They go on to be the parent of other SF units in the country.

What do you mean by "parent"? Does it mean that they helped train NSG or is it something else? Also, when you say SG is parent of other SF units, which other unit apart from NSG do you mean.

BTW, could you suggest any good book regarding this topic?
Thanks.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Apr 2011 14:35

I will post relavent wiki para

Special Group

The Director General (DG) Security, Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW) in 1982 dispatched 500 SFF operatives along with over 500 Indian Army special forces to Sarasawa for Counter Terrorist training. It is also thought that the selected troopers thereafter were sent to Israel for highly specialized training. These men formed the nucleus of an ultra-elite and highly classified new detachment, known as the Special Group.

The SFF Special Group is structured like the Special Air Service (SAS) Regiment, its headquarters supported by an Intelligence and Planning wing, a Training wing and a specialist Signals Troop which is solely responsible for support operations. Having four squadrons each made up of around 100 troopers, which are further divided into four troops. Each troop has a specialized role. The Special Group has a wide range of responsibilities, each requiring specific training and disciplines.Special Group is also the parent unit of elite National Security Guards(NSG). It is a volunteer force and persons are inducted only after a very tough probation and selection process.

Material on SFF is rare and mention is few places. Wiki gives a good overview and the accompanying links.

One of the retired Army personnel had given a very good account. He refuses to let it to be put on paper. He had opened to me. He is very old. Its been 3.5 years I have been coaxing him. One day, if he relents, I will put that on FI. The info is rare and without his name being mentioned, it will be called a heresay.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 Apr 2011 14:57

^^
SG being the parent unit is indeed puzzling. But I guess I will remain puzzled due to lack of open source info.

But thanks for the reply anyway.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Apr 2011 16:30

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... es/page324

some pics of punjab police SWAT team at mohali...looks quite well equipped vs kit of other state police...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Apr 2011 17:44

^^^SFF still comes under Cabinet Secretariat...which itself reports directly into PM. So, it is a matter of semantics. As for the covert ops, what Gujral distamtled were the CIT-X and CIT-J of the R&AW. As far as SFF is concerned, certain rules of engagement (like they will not come xkms from LAC) were formulated as CBM with China (there is an incidence mentioned of 4hrs gunfight in Ladakh between PLA and SFF). The IA or R&AW may still use them for recce and other behind the lines operations (apart from deployment in Siachen or operations in Kargil)...but I have no info on that.

SG is different ball-game. And no, it cannot be mother of all SF forces in India...Para(SF) predates it. What NSG is today, SG was supposed to be able to handle - apart from covert operations outside the country. There is a reason it was modeled on SAS.

This is a rare open source info on the SG (from here:http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/36780/)

Uddu was serving with the Special Group, a force under the Cabinet Secretariat raised to perform as a Special Forces unit. Yet, it has no cadre of its own, is dependent on officers and at times other ranks who are deputed to the force to serve for a few years before they go back to their parent units.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Apr 2011 18:26

Nope. There is a mention of the them being dismantled on advise of IKG.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Apr 2011 18:42

I think so. Though, not sure.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Apr 2011 19:55

Regarding "SG is different ball-game. And no, it cannot be mother of all SF forces in India...Para(SF) predates it. What NSG is today, SG was supposed to be able to handle - apart from covert operations outside the country. There is a reason it was modeled on SAS."

http://www.nsg.gov.in/june08/history.htm . They have ommited the SG, but rest of the description is the same.

The NSG was modelled on the pattern of the SAS of the UK and GSG-9 of Germany.

SG and NSG have same description.

Army wanting SFF for recon is also a suspect. It is not so.

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2219/st ... 503000.htm also read this

Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi's regime did not, however, restrict itself to sending verbal signals to Islamabad. In the mid-1980s, RAW set up two covert groups, CIT-X and CIT-J, the first targeting Pakistan in general and the second directed at Khalistani groups. Rabinder Singh, the RAW double-agent who defected to the U.S. in 2004, was among those who helped run CIT-J during its early years. Both these covert groups extensively used the services of cross-border traffickers like Sarabjit Singh to ferry weapons and funds across the border, much as their ISI counterparts were doing.

Read this too http://www.hindu.com/fline/fl2113/stori ... 103300.htm

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Apr 2011 20:22

self deleted

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Apr 2011 20:50

Self deleted

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Apr 2011 21:43

chackojoseph wrote: <SNIP> http://www.nsg.gov.in/june08/history.htm . They have ommited the SG, but rest of the description is the same.

The NSG was modelled on the pattern of the SAS of the UK and GSG-9 of Germany.

SG and NSG have same description.

Army wanting SFF for recon is also a suspect. It is not so

.

CJ,

I don't know why we're even having this debate. Special Group is an existing entity. It was supposed to be some single entity to deal with situations that NSG does as of today and what SAS is to UK - basically, an elite Special Force in true sense. One can easily ask why not use Para(SF) for this role - but I don't have any answer. However, my hypothesis is that Para(SF) was deemed to be suited for more direct 'Commando' style operations while SG was to be this covert specops unit.

As for SFF, it is askin to elite infantry regiment with good mountain warfare capabilities - and is used as such. In any future sino-india shooting match, expect them to be operating behind enemy lines and disruting the enemy LoC and C3I nodes.

From the article posted by you: http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2219/st ... 503000.htm

For reasons that are still unclear - some people believe Indian strategists did not wish to undermine the moral legitimacy of their complaints about Pakistani cross-border terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir - the covert offensive soon wound down. None of those in office at the time will, not surprisingly, discuss the issue on record, but Raman asserted in a 2003 article that the decision to terminate India's offensive covert capabilities directed at Pakistan was made by Prime Minister I.K. Gujral. Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao is believed to have terminated RAW's eastern operations earlier as part of his efforts to build bridges with China and Myanmar. As violence in Jammu and Kashmir escalated, successive RAW and I.B. heads attempted to gain authorisation for aggressive operations, but without success. After the 1999 war, key intelligence officers, including a former I.B. Director, attempted to persuade Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee to issue the necessary authorisations. "He didn't say a word," recalls one official present at the meeting. "He didn't say no; he didn't say yes."

This is what I was refering to.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Apr 2011 21:45

chackojoseph wrote:Guy's the name Establishment - 22 is not right. It is Task Force 22. I just sent a mail to someone who knows the background. What he dosen't know, he said he will ask. Give me few days, I may be able to give you and insight into CIT-J and CJIT-X and formation of NSG and what happened to SG. etc.

Every material on that deals with raising of SFF at Chakrata says that the name given was Establishment-22. The reason being, the first DG of SFF was from 22 Mountain Regiment.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 26 Apr 2011 22:47

^^
Rohit is right with the above explanation. The 22SF is first and foremost a covert ops unit. To better understand this you need to appreciate the fact that while it's manpower is from the IA, its is best buddies with the intelligence set-ups. Thus it finds itself in an extremely advantageous position, with must lesser red tape. They virtually get what they want. Its secondary role is also in shaping Special Operations doctrine. This is where they come into their own. This is imparted through the Combined Commando School (CCS), Sarsawa to the various SF units.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 Apr 2011 23:10

rohitvats wrote:<snip> As far as SFF is concerned, certain rules of engagement (like they will not come xkms from LAC) were formulated as CBM with China (there is an incidence mentioned of 4hrs gunfight in Ladakh between PLA and SFF).<snip>

Is this a paanwaala info? If not, can you point me towards any open source material on this (any book or article)?
Thanks.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 27 Apr 2011 01:23

Admins

please send the last few pages to their 72

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 27 Apr 2011 03:51

Midst of 22SF, Est-22, SFF and SG jargons, I will appreciate if one could explain what "Vikas Regiment" means.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Apr 2011 08:31

"Vikas regiment" must have been a name formulated by one of our more "peace loving" babus since Vikas sounds lot more friendlier than "Special Frontier Force/ Estb- 22". Must have been a "CBM" of some sort with China

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Apr 2011 08:32

Self Deleted.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Apr 2011 12:23

Aditya G wrote:Midst of 22SF, Est-22, SFF and SG jargons, I will appreciate if one could explain what "Vikas Regiment" means.

That is how the SFF is know in general - Vikas Regiment.

Read this: http://www.tibetwrites.org/?Not-their-own-wars

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Apr 2011 13:24

self deleted

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Apr 2011 16:06

I have got the info. I deleted some of my post due to in accuracies. I will post the article shortly.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Apr 2011 17:30

A look back into India's special agencies

And guys, please "no questions on CIT-X."

So rohitvats, you can update some wrong notions.

***runs and hides from maulana Suryaullah

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Apr 2011 17:51

^^
Thanks for the article. Much appreciated.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Apr 2011 20:17

chackojoseph wrote:A look back into India's special agencies

And guys, please "no questions on CIT-X."

So rohitvats, you can update some wrong notions.

Can you please tell me which wrong notions I should update?

I used the term Cabinet Secretariat and R&AW in the same sense; I can change that and be more specific next time.

However, as for Special Group aka 22SF, your source is patently wrong. I will not delve more into it.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 27 Apr 2011 20:32

Chacko: that was a nice read. But did M K Dhar actually confirm the existence of CIT-X? The internet article you refer to might be the one below, which looks like a typical YYY paranoia drivel by some Paki moron

CIT ‘X’ Operations: Mossad-RAW nexus

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 27 Apr 2011 20:48

I bet he is not talking about the RAW of India, some other RAW. Nevertheless, the areas where we can start looking at is provided. Mr.Brandy and Mr.Singh should get ready

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Apr 2011 20:59

rohitvats wrote: I will not delve more into it.

Thank You. He is aware of 22 SF. But, I don't want to reply to you too.

Prem Kumar wrote:Chacko: that was a nice read. But did M K Dhar actually confirm the existence of CIT-X? The internet article you refer to might be the one below, which looks like a typical YYY paranoia drivel by some Paki moron

CIT ‘X’ Operations: Mossad-RAW nexus

I knew someone will ask. The article has mixed it with rethoric, as you say "which looks like a typical YYY paranoia drivel by some Paki moron." Instead of replying to my query on CIT-X, he pointed it there. I dutifully posted it.

Rest is history, so he can tell. Read his books, there is more in it. He has fictionalised the stories.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Apr 2011 21:10

^^ Was the RAW/Mossad part actually mentioned by Sri Dhar or did he just post to the Paki links? That seems to be the only crazy part in a otherwise informative article...

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 27 Apr 2011 21:16

Chacko,

Thanks.

An honest feedback - please do not mind. The article appears a bit disjointed.

As for SG, well my understanding seems to be different. But we will leave it at that.

Best regards,

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Apr 2011 21:24

sum wrote:^^ Was the RAW/Mossad part actually mentioned by Sri Dhar or did he just post to the Paki links?

No, he sent me a word doc attached seperately.

Ashutosh Malik,

I didn't want to do this article. Its based on the discussions here, especially the claims of some people and some things that could be gleaned out.

You See Est 22 SG has some 7500 personnel. We are aware of it. I have limited to what he has written and what he wanted to say.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Apr 2011 23:12

Ashutosh Malik wrote: <SNIP>As for SG, well my understanding seems to be different. But we will leave it at that. <SNIP>

Let the sleeping dogs lie on this front.

God knows, what secret chants Surya is preparing for all us kafirs discussing SG.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Apr 2011 00:49

rohitvats wrote:That is how the SFF is know in general - Vikas Regiment.

OR maybe there is more to it:

One such song in Hindi, composed by a Tibetan trooper, is titled “We are Vikasi”, referring to the term used for a regiment within the SFF.

Me thinks that the SFF functions like an umbrella organisation with personnel that rotate out of other units such as SG and Vikas. After all, why would India keep an elite armed force only for peace station.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Apr 2011 01:00

Aditya G wrote:
rohitvats wrote:That is how the SFF is know in general - Vikas Regiment.
OR maybe there is more to it:

One such song in Hindi, composed by a Tibetan trooper, is titled “We are Vikasi”, referring to the term used for a regiment within the SFF.

Me thinks that the SFF functions like an umbrella organisation with personnel that rotate out of other units such as SG and Vikas. After all, why would India keep an elite armed force only for peace station.

AFAIK, there are eight battalions of SFF...and for general consumption they are know as Vikas Regiment.It consists of Tibetans. Indian Army has no Vikas Regiment, per se. These people fought in Kargil and are known to be deployed in Siachen (Partapur Sector). SG, as i have said earlier, has nothing in common in SFF.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 30 Apr 2011 16:54

Since everyone seems to have tired out of discussing SG, SFF, Vikas, Est 22, etc and being none the wiser,
I strongly suggest that an RTI query be filed to get the clear picture. It will save a lot of heartburn we see on this thread.

anyone taking this seriously is hereby condemned to endure Surya's secret chants and spells