India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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BENNY
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India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby BENNY » 27 Apr 2011 19:41

India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

The Indian Ministry of Defense has issued letters, on Wednesday, to two of the six vendors competing in the estimated USD 10 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), asking them to extend the validity of their commercial bids, which will expire on Thursday, tomorrow.

StratPost can confirm that the European Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and the French Dassault’s Rafale have been invited to do so, effectively making up the shortlist.

StratPost can also confirm that according to the IAF and the ministry, the other aircraft in the fray, the US Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet, the US Lockheed Martin Corporation’s F-16, the Russian MiG-35 and the Swedish SAAB’s Gripen did not pass the technical evaluation conducted by the IAF.

It is noteworthy that this comes just a day before the commercial bids of all six vendors were to expire.

It would not be unsurprising if this move by the ministry and it’s coincidentally sharp timing were to raise the hackles of the spurned vendors. Industry insiders are already expecting to see a robust response from these vendors and their countries of origin, at least in private, to this decision.

One question some of the vendors losing out are already asking is why the ministry asked all the vendors to resubmit their offset proposals early this month if they already knew the outcome of the technical evaluation submitted by the IAF last summer, and waited till a day before the expiry of the commercial bids to effectively announce a shortlist by inviting extension of commercial bids from only two vendors.

The commercial bids of the other four vendors will lapse on Thursday, tomorrow.

Something else the uninvited vendors are ready to question is the basis for judging technical compliance, with robust speculation that none of the MMRCA-6 aircraft were actually completely compliant with the IAF’s 643 parameters listed in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) for the tender.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby GeorgeWelch » 27 Apr 2011 19:46

BENNY wrote:Industry insiders are already expecting to see a robust response from these vendors and their countries of origin, at least in private, to this decision.


Well I wish you more luck in the protest cycle than we had with KC-X.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2011 19:52

hopefully not the start of lawsuits and muckracking/scandals.

how I wish he had our own MRCA and not have to go through this unseemly circus for every major deal.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Vivek K » 27 Apr 2011 19:55

Singha wrote:how I wish he had our own MRCA and not have to go through this unseemly circus for every major deal.

Well said GD!!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2011 20:02

livefist.

FLASH! Rafale & Typhoon Move To Next Level In M-MRCA, Others Left Behind
It's official. France's Dassault Aviation and the European consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon move to the next level on the IAF M-MRCA selection process. Both companies have confirmed that their programme teams have been asked to be at the MoD/Air HQ tomorrow for a meeting where the process will be taken forward. This is, in effect, the downselect that you've been hearing about so much. More shortly. It must be said that it was TimesNOW's Srinjoy Chowdhry who first reported that the Rafale and Typhoon led the competition.
Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Apr 2011 20:17

Rafale would be no. 1 & Eurofighter no. 2 in choice as Rafale's AESA is ready while Ef2k's sometime away. Anyway great news and good decision. IAF deserves the best!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Rakesh » 27 Apr 2011 20:18

May I kindly request admins to end this thread and start a new one?

VERY GOOD NEWS!!!!

KATRINA...Balle Balle!!!! :)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Gurneesh » 27 Apr 2011 20:20

Too early to rejoice..............Let the official MoD version come first.
Last edited by Gurneesh on 27 Apr 2011 20:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby RoyG » 27 Apr 2011 20:23

WOOHOO! This is what I was hoping for. Hopefully news is true. :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby ranjithnath » 27 Apr 2011 20:29

if this is true, non inclusion of american aircrafts for the downselect is a bit of surprise.(an appeal against this can be expected,dammn)but none the less happy to see rafale.yay!!any info if the uprated M88 will be on offer???

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby KrishG » 27 Apr 2011 20:31

I will be very happy if Amirkhan aircraft have indeed been kicked out. :D

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby SaiK » 27 Apr 2011 20:33

I am sure the losers know what the local laws are regarding holding back on this deal going courts for explanations of technical merits. They would perhaps get banned for future participation.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Sanku » 27 Apr 2011 20:35

More undelivered mithai eh......

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby shiv » 27 Apr 2011 20:39

Let us start a new thread for whining.

Eurofighter looks too much like J-10

Rafale looks too hungry with sunken cheeks.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Kakarat » 27 Apr 2011 20:43

FLASH! Rafale & Typhoon Move To Next Level In M-MRCA, Others Out! - LIVEFIST

It's official. France's Dassault Aviation and the European consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon move to the next level on the IAF M-MRCA selection process. Both companies have confirmed that their programme teams have been asked to be at the MoD/Air HQ tomorrow for a meeting where the process will be taken forward. This is, in effect, the downselect that you've been hearing about so much. More shortly. It must be said that it was TimesNOW's Srinjoy Chowdhry who first reported that the Rafale and Typhoon led the competition.
Last edited by Kakarat on 27 Apr 2011 20:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Rakesh » 27 Apr 2011 20:43

ranjithnath wrote:any info if the uprated M88 will be on offer???

If Katrina is indeed selected, then we will have to take the current M88 engine on offer. The M88-4 turbofan can be added on later as a block upgrade. We may not be able to wait till the M88-4 gets ready for service. TSP tends to get adventurous when they appear force levels to be at parity. We need to induct these aircraft as quickly as possible…although quickly has a different connotation to politicians/babus in the MoD and air warriors in the IAF.

A good plan would be to chart out the life cycle of the MMRCA and treat the aircraft as a program and not as a purchase. Good project managers are needed for this. Have specific dates (or at least tentative dates!) for block upgrades, so availability is always there. Ensure that spares are always available, be manufactured locally or can be sourced from Dassault Aviation or Eurofighter GMBH for non-exorbitant prices. Please don’t repeat the mistakes of the past.

KrishG wrote:I will be very happy if Amirkhan aircraft have indeed been kicked out. :D

Please allow me to caution you against gloating. It is a waste of time. All aircraft (MiG-35 is the exception) put their best foot forward, but the IAF made its final decision. Now is the time to look ahead. If the news is true about the Rafale and Eurofighter down select, this is very good news for India.

Sanku wrote:More undelivered mithai eh......

First batch of mithai is coming when I see IAF roundels on Katrina or Eurofighter. Nothing earlier than that! :D

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby putnanja » 27 Apr 2011 20:43

GeorgeWelch wrote:
BENNY wrote:Industry insiders are already expecting to see a robust response from these vendors and their countries of origin, at least in private, to this decision.


Well I wish you more luck in the protest cycle than we had with KC-X.


You did have good luck with KC-X, boeing won that order. So why are you whining?

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MRCA News and Discussion - April 27 2011

Postby putnanja » 27 Apr 2011 20:46

KrishG wrote:I will be very happy if Amirkhan aircraft have indeed been kicked out. :D


Never underestimate the power of khan. They managed to derail the process in Brazil, and they have heavily influenced other countries too. Like they say, it ain't over till it is over. Given the employment benefit that the US expects from this deal, and the clout US has with the PMO, I wouldn't write off the teens yet
Last edited by putnanja on 27 Apr 2011 20:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby SaiK » 27 Apr 2011 20:48

we can always change after the finalist is selected to upgrade to M88-x for all local assembly lines, and the first 18s be delivered with older version ones.

nevertheless, only if katrina makes it... and we are assuming whatever ddm says is true here as well.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Rakesh » 27 Apr 2011 20:54

Fellow Rakshaks...remember the news about Rafale being kicked out of the competition? Remember how Posina V Rao was black listed by the IAF for going directly to the MoD instead of the IAF? Now piece the puzzle together :)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby GeorgeWelch » 27 Apr 2011 20:56

putnanja wrote:You did have good luck with KC-X, boeing won that order. So why are you whining?


After the initial award, it took 10 years to get a contract signed.

I was merely expressing my hope that you don't suffer a similar delay after the initial award is announced.

(ps I actually wanted EADS to win that competition as they offered the better product)
Last edited by GeorgeWelch on 27 Apr 2011 20:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Apr 2011 20:58

ranjithnath wrote:if this is true, non inclusion of american aircrafts for the downselect is a bit of surprise.(an appeal against this can be expected,dammn)but none the less happy to see rafale.yay!!any info if the uprated M88 will be on offer???


I predict no company is going to appeal against it, as they have seen the Slap on the face of italian co. in matter of IAF bases upgradation against TATA. No they can't afford to rile IAF/MoD.

This Rafale forum mentions about GaN based AESA on cards very soon:

http://rafale.freeforums.org/aesa-news-t107.html
New horizons for AESA radars
Air&Cosmos 2226, page 26, july 9


Thales prepares the future in thinking over future radar technologies

Thales intends to maintain its position as a European pioneer in Aesa radar technology. This place, gained thanks to the development of AESA version of the Rafale front tip radar , will materialize in August, with deliveries of the first RBE2-AESA in standard production.
[...]
Program:
If its RBE2-AESA enters in industrial phase, Thales intends to maintain its lead in providing some technological bricks considered crucial to broaden the scope of active antennas. This new roadmap is built around two key technologies: gallium nitride (GaN), a broadband semiconductor called to prevail for future emission-reception modules of radars with active antenna, and silicon-germanium (SiGe), a low power semiconductor, whose use in the control floors of the beam of active antennas will significantly reduce their size.
Compared to the current gallium arsenide (GaAs), GaN offers much more power and works with very large bandwidth. This power, coupled with a sharp reduction in heat loss, lets consider very compact antennas since it will be possible to obtain the same power with smaller modules. The SiGe, itself, allows to regroup on a same low-power component several functions of phase control and amplitude control, reducing the overall size of the antenna.
Potential applications are diverse: In the medium term, it is expected that Rafale’s RBE2 and SPECTRA share the same antennas. In the longer term, one considers the application of conform antennas to the fuselage and their use as a single “entity” which would act as radar and electronic warfare, 360 degrees around the aircraft.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Vivek K » 27 Apr 2011 20:59

Rakesh, I don't see the connection. Could you pls elaborate? Thanks!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby GeorgeWelch » 27 Apr 2011 21:01

Manish_Sharma wrote:This Rafale forum mentions about GaN based AESA on cards very soon:


No, what is coming in August is the regular GaAs version.

All it says about GaN is that it's POSSIBLY in the roadmap for the future. Nothing about it being imminent.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Cosmo_R » 27 Apr 2011 21:02

Tomorrow, we'll learn that the 'shortlist' has been expanded to include.....:)

I'll wait until we hear this from several reputable sources. Anyone seen it confirmed by Vishnu Som or Reuters/AP?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Rakesh » 27 Apr 2011 21:18

Vivek K wrote:Rakesh, I don't see the connection. Could you pls elaborate? Thanks!

If the news about the down select is true, then the IAF prefered the Rafale and the Eurofighter once the technical trials were completed (probably earlier, but cannot be confirmed with any certainty). This must have riled the other vendors and false news was leaked about the Rafale being booted out of the competition. Now when taken at face value, this has NO bearing on the competition itself but might give the vendors an idea of who is in and who is not based on how the MoD responds. If this was just internet chatter or DDM reporting, the MoD would not intervened and stated that the Rafale is still very much in the running. But they did indeed respond and it takes a lot to happen for the MoD/GoI to clarify anything, especially in a competition of this importance.

Now on to Posina V Rao - India's Dassault Exec, think if it was the Gripen that bribed Wing Commander Thakur for a prime spot @ Aero India or if it was the MiG-35 that did the dirty deed? Do you think the IAF would have reacted in the manner it did if these aircraft were never part of the downselect? They declared P V Rao persona non grata for crying out loud - the man cannot even enter the hallowed halls of the IAF HQ in New Delhi! The IAF played it very safe because they knew what would happen otherwise - the official booting out of Dassault from the competition. And they could miss a golden opportunity to get an aircraft that got top marks from their evaluators.

When I say piece the puzzle together (I should have better worded it) what I meant was see the power play and struggle that is going on among the vendors and the extreme lengths that the IAF is going to ensure they get what they want. Sorry again.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby ranjithnath » 27 Apr 2011 21:19

seems like most of BR is supporting katrina now :D .a stark contrast to what we had when MRCA had started.reports on EF poor A2G and libyan strikes have helped a lot.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Vivek K » 27 Apr 2011 21:20

Thank you Admiral!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Rakesh » 27 Apr 2011 21:23

Marten wrote:PS: Rakesh saar, we'll collect the sweets at AI 2013. Kindly dispatch the Arihant lot c/o Shiv saar. :)

Sure Boss! But I promised mithai for Akula IIs and not Arihant! :) I did promise mithai if Katrina or Eurofighter wins. I really hope it is Katrina! Does anyone want to help me buy these mithai? I cannot afford them all! :(

Vivek K wrote:Thank you Admiral!

You are welcome!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby ranjithnath » 27 Apr 2011 21:24

METEOR !! :twisted: :D

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Rakesh » 27 Apr 2011 21:26

shiv wrote:Let us start a new thread for whining.

I love whining! I agree. Admins…can we please? :D

shiv wrote:Eurofighter looks too much like J-10.

Ever since I saw the Typhoon, her canards always reminded me of Shatrughan Sinha’s moustache…I know…I got way too much time on my hands!!! :oops: But see for yourself…if you don't believe me! That is why I call her (Typhoon) Shatru! I think it is a nice name.

Image Image

shiv wrote:Rafale looks too hungry with sunken cheeks.

Katrina is aiming for size zero :) Give her a break Shiv Saar!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2011 21:31

whatever is the aesa radar coming for MRCA probably stands a good chance for the Tejas Mk2 also (because US has banned export of the EL2052). and it could form the basis of the AMCA radar later in terms of certain building blocks and technologies.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Austin » 27 Apr 2011 21:43

Great News Indeed , Atleast we will get one great fighter that can be upgraded over its life time of 30 odd years and remain competitive.

Rafale is an obvious choice for me because of single country producing it and a throughbred Omni Role Fighter.

Go Rafale Go !

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby SaiK » 27 Apr 2011 21:43

That was a major blunder announcement by Uncle to have banned AESA radar for LCA. That really showed how desperate they want to put screws on us. Good job MoD!

Hope now there is a clear race between the euros. I am sure Ef2K will give a run for the money on Katrina..as days progress on fan-tastic offers.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Rakesh » 27 Apr 2011 21:48

SaiK wrote:That was a major blunder announcement by Uncle to have banned AESA radar for LCA. That really showed how desperate they want to put screws on us. Good job MoD!

Hope now there is a clear race between the euros. I am sure Ef2K will give a run for the money on Katrina..as days progress on fan-tastic offers.

CISMOA, EUMA, LSA were also blunders by Unkil. But it ain't over, until Unkil Sam gives the okay. Cosmo could be right...tomorrow's official announcement could very well include Rakhi Sawant as well.

From the little that I know, Shatru outperforms Katrina in the air-to-air role…but cannot do much else. Rafale may win based on her omnirole ability and her relatively cheaper unit cost against the Typhoon. The cheapest aircraft that meets/surpasses IAF requirements is designated as L1.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Vishnu » 27 Apr 2011 21:50

Marten wrote:
shiv wrote:Let us start a new thread for whining.

Eurofighter looks too much like J-10

Rafale looks too hungry with sunken cheeks.

hehe, you're always on the dot, Sir!

Expect <name removed> "unnamed lifafa journalists" to crib beat her err... drums and claim the process was rigged. Oh boy, unless they give "them" her an "escorted" tour of Paris or Frankfurt/Madrid/the mother nation - Italy, there's going to be a lot of crying and yelling about the IAF's real choices not being entertained. "Reliable sources inform <Chaddi> TV that the process was rigged - proof being the files being found in the Oiro/Froggie consortium offices!"

Let the real games begin!
PS: Rakesh saar, we'll collect the sweets at AI 2013. Kindly dispatch the Arihant lot c/o Shiv saar. :)

PPS: Apologies to members for the distraction.



Marten, Be careful about what you post ... changing a few letters in a name here and there doesn't protect you from libel. Not a threat, just friendly advice.

The news, from what I am hearing is accurate ... Rafale and Eurofighter make the downselect. However, we will need to wait for an official Defence Ministry statement which may well come tomorrow.

May the best plane win though I am disheartened that my personal favourite, the Gripen, hasnt made the cut !

Thanks
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor, Senior Anchor
NDTV

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby SaiK » 27 Apr 2011 21:53

Vishnu, you did a great job on that great plane! of course you knew why it did not make it.

- MTOW issue
- NG is no where near in its final stage
- stores and choking back-office mgmt from amrika
- no ops statistics.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Sumeet » 27 Apr 2011 21:55

Thanks Vishnu for coming and confirming this heartening news for us. Please do re confirm once you get access to MoD official decision. Keeping fingers crossed.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2011 21:58

- sweden has less to offer in tech terms than france or eads esp in our achilles heel area - engines :((
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Postby putnanja » 27 Apr 2011 21:58

The 10 C-17s for $4.1 billion + another 7 in options should keep the US happy. Any co-incidence that the C17 order was announced a few days before the MRCA downselect? Given that, I still wouldn't dismiss the US from coming back into the MRCA game


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