Indian Military Aviation

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Apr 2011 06:54

shiv wrote:Folks Prof Prodyut Das is back with a bang in the latest issue of Vayu. I am still reading the article - but it again offers interesting food for thought. The man has a sense of humaor and I like his lateral thinking and ability to think out of box. Whether his ideas are acceptable or not is a diferent issue - will post more on this in an appropriate thread after reading and digesting the article.

Will wait ... I like his logic for simpler planes.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Apr 2011 08:46

^^Well, his last article, which was discussed to death here had a very low signal to noise ratio. Hopefully, he has come up with something better this time.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Apr 2011 09:01

shiv wrote:Folks Prof Prodyut Das is back with a bang in the latest issue of Vayu. I am still reading the article - but it again offers interesting food for thought. The man has a sense of humaor and I like his lateral thinking and ability to think out of box. Whether his ideas are acceptable or not is a diferent issue - will post more on this in an appropriate thread after reading and digesting the article.

Can you scan and put it up for aaam Janta , Thanks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Apr 2011 09:03

nachiket wrote:^^Well, his last article, which was discussed to death here had a very low signal to noise ratio. Hopefully, he has come up with something better this time.

In fact he has made a reference to reactions to his last article - specifically about LCA/Gripen weights

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Apr 2011 10:46

rohitvats wrote:^^^CJ, which news?

This

I relied on some one to get the piece for me during the visit. Why i am sceptic is that I have not heard of MKI's being "deployed" in A&N after the havoc. IIRC, even last year they were completing the base or somethign like that. I am not sure if there is a deployment.

I was asking is some knows for sure if there is an deployment. If not, I would like to ammend my news report. If its temperory (like srai says), i would like to say its temporary.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Apr 2011 12:02

chackojoseph wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^CJ, which news?
This

I relied on some one to get the piece for me during the visit. Why i am sceptic is that I have not heard of MKI's being "deployed" in A&N after the havoc. IIRC, even last year they were completing the base or somethign like that. I am not sure if there is a deployment.

I was asking is some knows for sure if there is an deployment. If not, I would like to ammend my news report. If its temperory (like srai says), i would like to say its temporary.

IAF, currently, does not have enough squadrons to deploy a full squadron in the A&N. At most, it will be a detachment of MKIs and not a full squadron. Leh is an example. IAF regularly posts a detachment of MiG-29s at Leh ... but these are not a full squadron basing on a more permanent basis (i.e. not 12 months out of the year).

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Apr 2011 12:48

chackojoseph wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^CJ, which news?
This

I relied on some one to get the piece for me during the visit. Why i am sceptic is that I have not heard of MKI's being "deployed" in A&N after the havoc. IIRC, even last year they were completing the base or somethign like that. I am not sure if there is a deployment.

I was asking is some knows for sure if there is an deployment. If not, I would like to ammend my news report. If its temperory (like srai says), i would like to say its temporary.

CJ, you have mail.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Apr 2011 14:31

Thanks both of you.

I have ammended my article suitably.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Apr 2011 19:47

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 23 Apr 2011 01:37

India Likely To Award Trainer Contract In Third Quarter
Aviation Week

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Apr 2011 06:11

shiv wrote:Folks Prof Prodyut Das is back with a bang in the latest issue of Vayu. I am still reading the article - but it again offers interesting food for thought. The man has a sense of humaor and I like his lateral thinking and ability to think out of box. Whether his ideas are acceptable or not is a diferent issue - will post more on this in an appropriate thread after reading and digesting the article.

My take on his article is posted at the link below in the "Design your own fighter" thread
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1075135

chandanus · Post by **chandanus** » 23 Apr 2011 12:03

So after all the deep ToT in the world..we cant even make sukhoi 's tyres ...

!!!

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Apr 2011 13:36

^^WTF did we then stop the A-330 MRT refueller at the last minute citing low cost of Il-78 if Il-78s are in such state of disrepair?

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 23 Apr 2011 15:05

Mig-29: Last Standing Mig in 2017

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Apr 2011 17:06

Pratik_S wrote:Mig-29: Last Standing Mig in 2017

We have seen many such deadlines from MOD on Mig replacement , wont be surprising to see Mig in service much beyond 2020.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Apr 2011 20:01

chandanus wrote:So after all the deep ToT in the world..we cant even make sukhoi 's tyres ... !!!

Profitably? Yes.

Note that the tendering is due to cost related issues with "Russia". Plenty have the ability to make something, but except for one, the rest cannot meet the cost.

ToT has a technical component, which is what I would think any recipient is most interested in. Once tech is gained then obviously the issue becomes cost.

The other issue could be are Indian manufacturers able to make enough of them even IF they can make it AND at cost.

????

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Apr 2011 20:04

Pratik_S wrote:Mig-29: Last Standing Mig in 2017

I am not sure where the author gets the figures of more than 50% of MiG-27s being put in storage. MiG-27s are not going to be put up in storage, as they have/are being upgraded and they will very much be in service in 2017 and beyond.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Apr 2011 20:08

NRao wrote:
Profitably? Yes.

Note that the tendering is due to cost related issues with "Russia". Plenty have the ability to make something, but except for one, the rest cannot meet the cost.

ToT has a technical component, which is what I would think any recipient is most interested in. Once tech is gained then obviously the issue becomes cost.

The other issue could be are Indian manufacturers able to make enough of them even IF they can make it AND at cost.

????

I remember reading (back in the 1980s) that MRF used to make tyres for NASA's space vehicles. I am not sure if that was true, but if it was then I find it hard to believe that we cannot make tyres for the Rambha fleet. Either the article is not correct (on the tyre issue) or something seems amiss.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Apr 2011 20:16

On that article of the IAF losing her edge against the PAF, I gotta say that we have completely missed the point. I find it quite surprising that the article mentions, that the edge that the IAF has gotten down to dangerous levels. We talk about the low serviceability of our aircraft, but we fail to take into account that the same issue affects the PAF as well. The back bone of their fleet consists of Wuhan powered Chinese aircraft, which make our Tumansky and Klimov powered MiGs look like saints. We assume that they have 100% serviceable aircraft all the time, but we don't. Wow...that is really amazing!!! I think it was the late Air Chief Marshal S K Mehra (a man par excellence!) when he visited Pakistan and PAF officers told him about the low serviceability that they have.

Secondly, force multipliers are the name of the game now and it was only a matter of time before the PAF got AEW&C/AWACS aircraft and in-flight refueling aircraft. Someone needs to see the interview that Shiv Aroor did with Air Marshal (retd.) A K Singh (on the livefist blog) and you will see how Shiv got his facts all wrong and he got OWNED. At one point of the interview Shiv asks the Air Marshal if the levels are so dangerously low now, what will happen in five years and you should see the response Air Marshal Singh gives and then see Shiv's reaction to it.

This is not to suggest that we should rest and take it easy. And yes, delays in upgrading the MiGs and other aircraft have cost us...but we are nowhere near danger in the way Shiv Aroor mentions it. Relax and stop getting your panties in a twist.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Apr 2011 20:31

sum wrote:^^WTF did we then stop the A-330 MRT refueller at the last minute citing low cost of Il-78 if Il-78s are in such state of disrepair?

You think the bean counters at the FinMin are concerned about serviceability and uptime?

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Apr 2011 20:59

I am not sure if that was true, but if it was then I find it hard to believe that we cannot make tyres for the Rambha fleet. Either the article is not correct (on the tyre issue) or something seems amiss.

Saar, Multiple articles cutting across publications/authors have mentioned this in last 2-3 years...so, wouldn't doubt the Su-30 tyre issue one bit

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Apr 2011 21:20

http://www.outlookindia.com/printarticle.aspx?237154

EXCLUSIVE iaf spares crisis
Burning Rubber
Almost grounded. The IAf's frontline fighters faces a spare tyres crunch.
Saikat Datta
Out Of Wind

* Su-30 MKI has been hit by a severe tyre shortage. Supplies from Russian manufacturers inadequate.
* A clause in Sukhoi contract makes it mandatory for India to source spares, including tyres, only from Russian firms
* The indent process followed by the defence ministry is a long-winded one

Sources say matters came to a head by January when Air HQ discovered its Su-30 inventory had depleted to very low levels. With alarm bells ringing in Vayu Bhavan, orders were placed for an additional batch to tide over the crisis. The shortfall had built up over time as the indenting process and delivery slowed down, victim to a game of attrition brewing between buyer and seller. Says a senior IAF officer: "We are on a hand-to-mouth existence. We must hold at least three years' supply of tyres, but we have just a year's supply. Aircraft serviceability is down to absurd levels."

In response to a questionnaire from Outlook, the IAF spokesman confirmed that "stocks of the Su-30 MKI nose wheel tyres were low during the month of December '07 and January '08". He also confirmed that one of the key issues discussed by the defence ministry delegation to Russia was the "supply of Su-30 MKI tyres". However, he added that "adequate" arrangements had been made and the shortage of tyres "did not affect the flying commitments of the operational squadrons". The spokesman admitted there could be a long "lead time" in importing spares and "stock holdings would therefore be fluctuating vis-a-vis desired levels".

jai · Post by **jai** » 23 Apr 2011 21:20

sum wrote:
I am not sure if that was true, but if it was then I find it hard to believe that we cannot make tyres for the Rambha fleet. Either the article is not correct (on the tyre issue) or something seems amiss.
Saar, Multiple articles cutting across publications/authors have mentioned this in last 2-3 years...so, wouldn't doubt the Su-30 tyre issue one bit

Apparently, the issue is that the Russians are not letting us use Indian tyres and insisting that we only source from them, and then not being able to provide them.

I think the guys who write our contracts need to be smarter and not accept such clauses while contracting, and the operators and babus need to get thick skinned and create and use domestic spares where the Russians are defaulting. No point displaying good manners when the other party does not understand them. Indeed, rules of communication dictate that we should match the style of the person we are communicating with, so a few deliberate attempts to create and use our own spares - even if uneconomical - will drive the message home to these guys faster than crying hoarse over it.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Apr 2011 21:31

jai wrote:Apparently, the issue is that the Russians are not letting us use Indian tyres and insisting that we only source from them, and then not being able to provide them.

Just wondering how the Russians would know if we changed the tyres ourselves and just kept quiet about it?

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Apr 2011 00:27

chackojoseph wrote: * A clause in Sukhoi contract makes it mandatory for India to source spares, including tyres, only from Russian firms

Well so much for the ToT; tyre problem is not a new one the problem is babus want to follow rules in letter and spirit.
Question to be asked is what will Ru ukhaad if we were to bypass some of those and make some of the elementary stuff here in desh ? Indian cooperation and money has a fair share in keeping their shipyards and the 5th generation program chugging along .

Added later: Oh yes I for one don't blame Russians for this tyre issue; it happened with the IN Tu-142 fleet too at that time Dunlop in Kolkata was shortlisted for supplies but 'laal-salaam' guys shut down the factory; if MoD had an iota of common sense it would have floated a tender open for private and PSUs for supplying tires for our military AC (if not all at least a selected bunch for a start).MRF afaik entered a JV with HAL to make tires for the Chetak helicopter only in 2009.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Apr 2011 01:25

Are the contracts for other weapons also similar (probably so). EG how easy is it to obstain parts for the TOTed T-90s?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 24 Apr 2011 12:29

Rakesh wrote:
Pratik_S wrote:Mig-29: Last Standing Mig in 2017
I am not sure where the author gets the figures of more than 50% of MiG-27s being put in storage. MiG-27s are not going to be put up in storage, as they have/are being upgraded and they will very much be in service in 2017 and beyond.

I donot think all Mig-27 are getting upgraded only hand full (40) new airframes have been upgraded , lack of engine upgrades also makes me think that once MMRCA will start joining air force Mig-27 will be put in stores .

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Apr 2011 14:40

Indian Defence minister cautions against Corrupt Practices by Vested Interests

On old equipment he said that ”no nation will ever part with its first generation equipment."

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Apr 2011 21:43

chackojoseph wrote:On old equipment he said that ”no nation will ever part with its first generation equipment."

I read somewhere (can't remember where) that A K Antony has been sent to defend the furniture at the MoD

Where do we find these gems?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 26 Apr 2011 11:29

Yes. Happens in all GoI offices, people always want brand new shiny stuff and they take it as insult if you try to give them second hand thing , even its a chair.

haryanvi · Post by **haryanvi** » 26 Apr 2011 15:21

jai wrote:
Apparently, the issue is that the Russians are not letting us use Indian tyres and insisting that we only source from them, and then not being able to provide them.

I think the guys who write our contracts need to be smarter and not accept such clauses while contracting, and the operators and babus need to get thick skinned and create and use domestic spares where the Russians are defaulting. No point displaying good manners when the other party does not understand them. Indeed, rules of communication dictate that we should match the style of the person we are communicating with, so a few deliberate attempts to create and use our own spares - even if uneconomical - will drive the message home to these guys faster than crying hoarse over it.

Why only the Rambha fleet, we can't make tyres for any aircraft with the sole exception of Chetak whose tyres are made by MRF which has developed this ability only recently. Dunlop used to be India's sole aircraft tyre manufacturer once upon a time but the factory got closed down and nobody bothered to step into Dunlop's shoes.

You can negotiate a contract in your favour only if you are in a position of strength. If you are a weakling, be prepared to get exploited.

It's shameful and disgusting.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 26 Apr 2011 17:53

One can only hope people signing on the dotted line for the FGFA take these incidences into consideration. We will be spending a hell of a lot of $$ on it.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Apr 2011 03:36

Rakesh wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:On old equipment he said that ”no nation will ever part with its first generation equipment."
I read somewhere (can't remember where) that A K Antony has been sent to defend the furniture at the MoD Where do we find these gems?

For what? Collecting dust?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Apr 2011 03:53

NRao wrote:For what? Collecting dust?

Defence is such a bad word in India right now (due to various corruption scandals) that no minister wants that portfolio. So who do they dump it on? Self avowed saints like A K Antony and George Fernandes. They live in such utopian/Gandhian worlds that the MoD is the safest place to put them. They trumpet the transparency of the government in front of the nation, while the other ministers take in the loot. The problem with such folks is that strategic vision does not exist. They only see the short term goals (which is their own re-election and nothing to do with India's armed forces), while long term thinking is a concept that never enters their mind.

A K Antony is reputed to have said that even the slightest sign of impropriety in any defence deal, will lead to cancellation of the tender and will even offer his own resignation to prove his innocence. George Fernandes was no different. Does the cancellation of defence deals sound familiar? Because it should...here is a short list (a couple that came to mind);

- HDW submarine deal...more were to be built...never happened due to a scandal.
- Bofors Howitzer...need I say more?

Now just imagine (and this will likely happen...ACM P V Naik's words will be prophetic!) if this happens to the MMRCA.

The loser is us...the people of India. And the real loss is our men & women in uniform who have to fight with sub-standard equipment and lose their lives as a result! All because politicians and babus in New Delhi want all the power of governance, but none of the responsibility that comes with it.

P.S. Ideology aside, George Fernandes is not keeping well. I heard he has Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and is on a downhill slide. It is just a matter of when he passes away now. Regardless of what he did in his political career, sad to see that happen to him.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Apr 2011 06:18

Rakesh+++ for you.

I said the same about AKA's tenure as Raksha Mantri. Not a single big ticket item was purchased and even the FMS howitzer deal is tainted and in suspense. He doesnt fire the bad guys just ensures the forces dont get the goods they need.

Maybe that is the CBM to US and TSP.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Apr 2011 06:44

Thank God for China. And, perhaps Pakistan.

Why is that no one sends these Saints to look into Swiss bank accounts. Just wondering. I think/hope I know the answer.

Do we have any reports that there are Chinese in the Poonch area by any chance?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 27 Apr 2011 22:13

IAF activates landing ground at 2,950 feet near China border

In the backdrop of development of Chinese military infrastructure along the border, Indian Air Force (IAF) has activated an advanced landing ground (ALG) at Dharasu in Uttarakhand to enable rapid movement of troops and equipment in times of need. The 3,400-feet-long ALG is situated near the China border at an altitude of 2,950 feet in the hills and with restricted approach from both sides, the IAF said in its journal 'Blue Glory'. The first sortie to the ALG, a trial landing, was made by an AN-32 transport aircraft by Central air command senior air staff officer air marshal S. Varthman and 'Striking Yaks' squadron commanding officer group captain S.K. Indoria, it said. In the last three to four years, India has taken several measures to upgrade its military infrastructure along the Chinese border. ALGs have been activated in Ladkah region including Daulat Beg Oldie at 16,000 feet and Fukche and Nyoma airfields at over 12,000 feet altitude. The IAF is also working on activating and upgrading ALGs in the Eastern sector including Pasighat, Mechuka, Walong, Tuting, Ziro and Vijaynagar in Arunachal Pradesh, the journal said. On its side, the Chinese have built several missile bases and air bases in Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) apart from strengthening road infrastructure and rail link close to Indian territories to enable swift mobilisation of its troops.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 28 Apr 2011 10:45

Excellent documentary on the Mig-27

India is mentioned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUHsx0aFx6c

rahul_h · Post by **rahul_h** » 28 Apr 2011 12:30

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 106529.cms

Breaking News: Americans are out

Its party Time as we are going to choose one of the best fighters in the world Eurofighter typhoon and Rafale

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 12:45

strong support in certain unnamed forum that India go for Rafale. the reasons being
- KSA has ordered typhoon and Pak is friend of KSA, so these typhoons really belong to PAF and they would hate to see it in indian colour
- F-16 is the best, esp with APG79 radar and F22 tech which US promised to shoehorn in

even if these be missing, F-16 is still the best
- LM had promised to transfer the whole production line of F-solah to India (never mind how that would help Pak if HAL made their F-solahs)
- 2 engine costly than 1 engine , so starving yindu will bankrupt himself even before PAF tears starving yindu apart
- with Mig35 out, Russia will agree to give a good deal on 200-300 Rd33 engines
- US might give more F-solah to pak to keep jobs @ LM
- Sweden could give more to Pak now that its out