India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Prabu » 29 Apr 2011 16:18

Wow ! Well done India ! well done babu's and defence planners & IAF ! Middle finger to Uncle ! Excellent choice. No point in buyiung degraded white elephants with all RIDERS like end use monitoring etc etc. We are going for the BESTwith very least RIDERS ! Let all American's learn a lession. This should make them re-think putting RIDERS in all future deals !!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Prabu » 29 Apr 2011 16:21

I remember there was a poll in BRF on MMRCA , Ithink that also gave the similar results, i guess.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Debal » 29 Apr 2011 16:30

Prabu wrote:Wow ! Well done India ! well done babu's and defence planners & IAF ! Middle finger to Uncle ! Excellent choice. No point in buyiung degraded white elephants with all RIDERS like end use monitoring etc etc. We are going for the BESTwith very least RIDERS ! Let all American's learn a lession. This should make them re-think putting RIDERS in all future deals !!


Really great news.... a big kick in uncle's ass :rotfl:
Fingers crossed for RAFALE 8)

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby AJames » 29 Apr 2011 16:36

The Rafael would make an excellent choice. It has a wide range of air to air, air to ground, and naval weapon systems already integrated into it. It has an operating naval version capable of carrier operations. The only other aircraft that can match it for this multi-role and naval capability is the FA-18F. It has a huge bomb load capability, and although not up to F35 or F22 stealth standards, it is the only aircraft in the competition that has been designed from the onset with stealth in mind. Its manoeuvrability is equal to the Eurofighter and exceeds the FA-18F's and its helmet mounted sight systems are deadly as demonstrated in air combat competitions.

The only area where it lags some of the other aircraft in the competition is its engine power and power to weight ratio. Can anybody tell me what engines are going to be used - the 75kN existing engines or the proposed 88kN SNECMA M88-X9?

Another thing - the choice of the Rafael would bode well for future re-engining with the Kaveri variant intended for the AMCA, because it is around the same thrust range, and there is a possibility of a joint venture between SNECMA-GTRE to develop the SNECMA-Kaveri engine for both AMCA, Rafael and other aircraft along the lines of the PAKFA agreement.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby koti » 29 Apr 2011 16:45

Ref:Debal and Prabhu.

From the past few pages, I just realized how incumbent the repulsion to US of a is in general.
I feel US is seen equal a threat to India as China is.

I believe it is serious time US has to do some thing to distance itself from the this kind of paranoidism it is being associated with.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Apr 2011 16:49

koti wrote:Ref:Debal and Prabhu.

From the past few pages, I just realized how incumbent the repulsion to US of a is in general.
I feel US is seen equal a threat to India as China is.

I believe it is serious time US has to do some thing to distance itself from the this kind of paranoidism it is being associated with.


As for me, I don't hate US. I just don't like some things they do.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Will » 29 Apr 2011 16:51

koti wrote:Ref:Debal and Prabhu.

From the past few pages, I just realized how incumbent the repulsion to US of a is in general.
I feel US is seen equal a threat to India as China is.

I believe it is serious time US has to do some thing to distance itself from the this kind of paranoidism it is being associated with.


A first step would be to stop treating Pakistan with kids gloves and giving them freebies.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby rajanb » 29 Apr 2011 16:54

Wow, you guys are in super-cruise mode the way this thread is moving.

At times serious, at times humorous and at times I notice anger!

But, nonetheless illuminating.

I at least am glad that the process of selection or de-selection seems to have been carried out in a very professional manner. One can only empathise with the losers. They got the RFP. They decided to bid. They fielded products which they thought would win.
If one of them had not got the RFP, they would have screamed blue murder! :evil:

They should have known their competition. :eek:

And if after the process of demonstrating their product they were asked for clarifications and the IAF has their own interpretation of the clarifications, then the vendor did a poor job of convincing the IAF.

In the first place, the ideal situation would have been that there were no clarifications required by the IAF. However, being practical, there would be clarifications and these should have been simple questions which didn’t negatively impact the vendor’s chances. This entails that the vendor is on the same page as his intended customer, in terms of a complete understanding of the background of and the actual requirements.

(Why I say this is that some of the losers may want to say that the ability of their product was mis-understood and use it as a back door ploy?) :wink:

On a brighter note:

What do you guys say to whichever of the two win, the decision and contract will be announced before the validity of the RFP extension expiring? I.e. before 31st Dec 2011?

And to the Rafale winning? :D

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 17:03

Gagan saab, the net centricity is not for sale, and it is entirely doctrine driven, where India and masa are quite at distance. The most important aspect there is the CISMOA based equipments, where even the AESA radar though which the apg79 actually does ESM, counter measures, high bandwidth communications, I would believe if they had added other features like IFF, and passive sensors part of next generation of AESA modules.. it is really advanced stuff, where it could not have come without any document or perhaps, available to only just integrate what is really required for NATO ops.

I think we are reading too much into masa offer, and where it stands. Even the best of the hornets poodling nations gets would not come with same gear and feature set. There will be remote buttons.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sri » 29 Apr 2011 17:08

I don't wanna jump on the hate US bandwagon. I like Jalashwa and other cool huge aircrafts we are getting from them. Actually I was pretty ok with F18. Though it was not on top of my list . I am just dead against f16 for a variety of reasons. Number 1 of those is that Pakis get it for free.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 17:13

Those masa cool huge aircrafts will never be used as offensive platform. Please get that.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Austin » 29 Apr 2011 17:14

Sri wrote:Any comments from Swedish / Russian companies... ?


Comment from UAC Russia

Russian "MiGs" dropped out of bidding for the purchase of fighter planes for the Air Force in India. India's Defense Ministry has officially informed about the interim results of the tender, Rosoboronexport and the MiG corporation, said the official representative of Rosoboronexport, Vyacheslav Davidenko.

Rosoboronexport and United Aircraft Corporation "believe that the decision is an exclusive right of the Indian side to choose a supplier of aviation equipment," - said Davydenko.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sri » 29 Apr 2011 17:18

SaiK wrote:Those masa cool huge aircrafts will never be used as offensive platform. Please get that.


You are right. Maybe we are not strategic enough ally yet to get the cooler more deadly stuff. Fact is US put their best foot forward within their legal and strategic constraints. They lost the bid. Let’s hope next time they put up the best technology they have rather than the best technology their system allows to be given to us.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sanku » 29 Apr 2011 17:20

Austin wrote:Rosoboronexport and United Aircraft Corporation "believe that the decision is an exclusive right of the Indian side to choose a supplier of aviation equipment," - said Davydenko.


Anyone notice the different ways that the different countries have reacted?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 17:20

They have the best already.. they did not lose because of the offer, but because of asking us to sign up to choking deals, that would be put very much IAF in masa strategic bucket.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 17:26

Sanku wrote:
Austin wrote:Rosoboronexport and United Aircraft Corporation "believe that the decision is an exclusive right of the Indian side to choose a supplier of aviation equipment," - said Davydenko.


Anyone notice the different ways that the different countries have reacted?


Its the language they speak....the difference in thinking process or perspective, this is why my love for non-English speaking nations is more, they are more rooted, Accents give me confidence that the person has seen more than globalized...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Sri » 29 Apr 2011 17:31

Sanku wrote:
Austin wrote:Rosoboronexport and United Aircraft Corporation "believe that the decision is an exclusive right of the Indian side to choose a supplier of aviation equipment," - said Davydenko.


Anyone notice the different ways that the different countries have reacted?


You know my gut is that Russians knew they will not be selected long ago. They would have already spoken to the concerned guys and may be the participation in next generation aircraft project was good enough for them at this stage.

There would have been frank discussions with Russians on this already.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby rajanb » 29 Apr 2011 17:41

We now have our eggs in different baskets and the Russians are earthy enough to realise that.

I appreciate them for that. In any case we are contributing to their future aircraft.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby RajeshA » 29 Apr 2011 17:46

X-Posted from US News & Discussions Thread

Perhaps one template that was used in the selection was how to prevent aircraft technology from getting into the hands of the Chinese!

The Chinese would not be getting any aircraft technology from the Americans, and Russians would not want to part with their top of the line technology either, so the soft spot, the weak link are the Europeans, and with their economic woes they might just be tempted into selling technology to the Chinese, overriding the objections of the Americans!

So perhaps it was just a means of preempting such an outcome! Actually it makes sense to partner with Europeans and to base the decision on technical grounds. There was little to expect from America on any big strategic issues!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Austin » 29 Apr 2011 17:48

BTW just watching NDTV news , why are they stressing on why US lost in this deal and how Indo-US strategic deal could affect , seems to me like a patronising attitude from them , considering they do not have similar statements about Sweden or Russia who lost out equally.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2011 17:49

Sri wrote:
SaiK wrote:Those masa cool huge aircrafts will never be used as offensive platform. Please get that.


You are right. Maybe we are not strategic enough ally yet to get the cooler more deadly stuff. Fact is US put their best foot forward within their legal and strategic constraints. They lost the bid. Let’s hope next time they put up the best technology they have rather than the best technology their system allows to be given to us.


Well the US openly offers lower technology to some and even lower technology to other and openly and honestly says that the US is ahead and intends to stay ahead.

The C-130 was something India has wanted for decades, but the US was not willing until recently. It really is a marvellous machine. When India was looking at creating an LCA - the F-16 was already flying, and the US offered India the F-20. Funnily enough the Chinese sort of "half cooperated" with the US and the Soviets and ended up with various designs that they made into the Bundaar.

Just look at the MMRCA competition:

1) Was Sweden offering her best? Yes.
2) Was Russia offering her best for size and requirement? Yes
3) Was the European consortium offering their best and latest? Yes.
4) France was offering her latest
5) What about the USA? They were certainly not offering their latest. maybe it was their karma that the F-35 is not yet ready. The US had the same problem as Russia. Their development cycle was out of phase from India's requirement cycle.

To me cheering that the US has been booted or worrying that the US will do something is an indicator of the deep sense of dhoti-shivering that the US generates. No one is cheering that the Swedes have been booted out, or the Russians and no one is worrying that those nations will sabotage something.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Austin » 29 Apr 2011 17:54

For one US was not offering the complete source code for key components to reconfigure it to Indian requirenment , what US came up with is a module like approach , which would help India integrate its particular software module to existing layer of software to integrate Indian weapons or electronics , but most of the software would remain black box not knowing what was inside it or how it works or if there is a backdoor or bug.

Thats similar to installing your drivers in windows where you can add your driver but the OS itself is very proprietary.

France and EADS were offering complete software code access that includes Russia and Sweden , so thats a good thing since we know what the real thing inside and not just a modular way to add things or ask permission from US if you want to add something or involve them in to every bit of new weapons or electronics we add.
Last edited by Austin on 29 Apr 2011 17:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shukla » 29 Apr 2011 17:57

'Exclusion of US firms from IAF jet deal a setback for ties'
Indian Express

"The Indian decision to eliminate the two US firms from the MMRCA competition is strategically short-sighted. There is little doubt that the decision will set the US-India relationship back," said Lisa Curtis of the Heritage Foundation, who is known as one of the best known friend of India in Washington's academia and think-tank.

Ashely Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said the move will raise questions about why the United States should bend backwards to accommodate India. "You can imagine that there is great disappointment within the US government with the decision. It will lead many in the US to conclude that India has settled for a plane, not a relationship, and if that is the case, it will raise questions about why the United States should bend backwards to accommodate India," he said. "I think the way the decision was announced was also unsettling: the GOI (Government of India) knew full well the importance the administration attached to this sale. A quiet intimation of the coming decision would have helped," said Tellis who played a key role in the Bush Administration during the civilian nuclear deal.

"A wasted opportunity to strengthen US-Indian relations," observed Michael Krepon, co-founder of Stimson, and director of the South Asia and Space Security programs.

This did not come as a surprise to Christine Fair, Assistant Professor Georgetown University. "I have been dubious for years that India would purchase these platforms from the United States. As is well known, such sales were trumpeted as being possible in the wake of the Indo-US nuclear deal and indeed likely," she said. "I was also suspicious of those claims at the time and remained so. Over the long run, I doubt that this will affect the US-India relationship and hopefully it will vitiate some of the Panglossian optimism that has surrounded the prospects of US large-ticket sales to India. There are other opportunities that the two countries should be exploring that are important and less politically laden," Christian Fair said.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby AbhiJ » 29 Apr 2011 17:58

Today defence and security company Saab AB has received information from the Indian Ministry of Defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.


http://feed.ne.cision.com/wpyfs/00/00/0 ... lease.html

http://www.saabgroup.com/About-Saab/New ... programme/

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby RajeshA » 29 Apr 2011 17:59

Another reason for giving the contract to the Europeans could be to weaken America's hold on them w.r.t. to Security infrastructure of the world like UNSC, NPT, NSG, etc.

India does not want to be dependent on USA only to be allowed in into these groups or to remain in these groups!

EU is a big block of countries with a lot of votes in these groups. And as was seen during the the negotiations for NSG waiver for India, all these pipsqueaks have votes, and India does not want USA to be the arbiter, the middle-man of these votes when it comes to India's interests. India wants to have a direct line of influence to these countries.

Secondly we have seen how busy China has been in courting EU countries from Greece, etc. by buying their bonds and propping their economies! India may have become worried that with all this influence China may be able to break American ban on European defense industry to sell to China! So India may be thinking of buying the Eurofighter to gain influence over major European countries to withhold technology to China!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 18:08

see how our strategists and MUTUs are ready to pounce on the opportunity here, to take the analysis further to their whims and fancies!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 18:11

remove USA and everything is peaceful...they have such a clutter value, that it hampers ones thought process...I am hoping not tho mention monkey anymore in my prayers...I hate it for not letting me pray peacefully. that all...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby RamaY » 29 Apr 2011 18:16

Jagan's Note: Post Edited Out - You have a right to your opinion, and so does Vishnu. You can state your viewpoint in a civil manner Without getting too personal. But you just cant quote an some anonymous correspondence alleging something and say " here is what i heard about you that I will quote in a public forum anonymously even though I dont believe it...". Its not kosher.. .. Here is an example of how you can critique a program on its content without getting too uptight about it..
Last edited by Jagan on 30 Apr 2011 02:15, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: See Note Above

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Mahendra » 29 Apr 2011 18:18

Arey Bhayya!

Relax, don't attack the messenger

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Chinmayanand » 29 Apr 2011 18:19

Austin wrote:BTW just watching NDTV news , why are they stressing on why US lost in this deal and how Indo-US strategic deal could affect , seems to me like a patronising attitude from them , considering they do not have similar statements about Sweden or Russia who lost out equally.

Some Roy from Undie Tv sits on some panel of CFR. That's why so much heartburn there. These people have no love for what is best for the country but their own self.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 18:24

so what should we do for the pathetic reasoning a seasoned journalist is showing, and quoting years of deshbhakti, What should I see except what is in front of me. Guess shooting the messenger is not something NDTV can sue, can they?

anyways BR is no less than SPARTA...we can shoot the messenger for very passionate reasons...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby rajanb » 29 Apr 2011 18:27

Whoever says, by knocking the F-16 / 18 out is a setback to "strategice relations" needs to define that term! Utter rubbish and balderdash.

Obviously the word "strategic" means different to us and the US of A. What is strategic for them may not be strategic for us.

I am glad we are standing up to be counted. We are a democracy as much as the US is. Our choices are as important to us and theirs are to them. And as the Russians and Swedes have accepted it with grace, so should the US of A and their so called think tanks, analysts and friends! if their products and policies combined had been suitable for us, sure we would have bought them.

The day we are self sufficient, that day will indeed be a golden day for us.
Last edited by rajanb on 29 Apr 2011 18:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby samridhis » 29 Apr 2011 18:29

There is no issue with bad relations with US because of this. It was the gr8est risk for going with US planes as US sometimes assign the ban on countries without thinking of relation and defence preparedness becomes in gr8 danger at that time.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby RamaY » 29 Apr 2011 18:31

Mehdiji,

That was a feedback to Vishnuji. It is his show and I hope he welcomes feedback and uses it constructively in his future shows.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby rajanb » 29 Apr 2011 18:33

I think what may have been factored in is that we may need to have the "Buddha Smiling" again soon, to counter chinese developments in nuclear warfare. France did not impose sanctions on us the last time the Buddha Smiled! :D

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 29 Apr 2011 18:39

Do we have all kinder gartners posting on BRF these days ? Haven't you guys ever been witness to a product shortlisting process ? It's always about the customer in fact to be fair in case of military deals the supplier does get to dictate the terms of the deal. It is amusing to see people make crazy assumptions about the way IAF goes about it's AC selection process. The MRCA contract was originally tailored around augmenting our M2K fleet so why is it that questions are being asked about including likes of F-16 or Gripen in the deal ?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Muppalla » 29 Apr 2011 18:52

Vishnu may have done a better show had he got an hour slot. 22 mins for such a complex discussion is very difficult.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shiv » 29 Apr 2011 19:05

Where is that news item that said that the IAF tested all 6 aircraft for over 600 parameters (was the number 643?)

That is as comprehensive as it gets. It would have included all sorts of stuff including things like cockpit ergonomics, hot and high performance and weapons delivery and the ability of IAF technicians to absorb the procedures involved in readying the plane, ease of maintenance refuelling, climb rate and acceleration and turn rates at the altitudes and temperatures that the IAF needs to work at.

Read that Mi-4 article I posted. And Jagan's 1965 air war book and you will see how badly avionics perform when subjected to the vibration and G-forces of flying. The design philosophy of aircraft changed over the years and the Mirage 2000 I believe was a revelation to the IAF in its sophistication and reliability. Modular LRUs and hot swap units now enable the quick replacement of items that previously grounded the aircraft for hours or days. Newer tech involves a newer philosophy of keeping planes flying reliably and usefully and I am certain that the Rafale, Gripen and EF probably scored over older designs in this regard.

Talking about lovey dovey relationships etc is all very well, but I think the IAF can start developing a lovey dovey relationship with HAL. Let them, in this case, get the equipment they chose.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vasu » 29 Apr 2011 19:26

ooh, all the way from Australia....

India looks to Europe for fighters

India's Defence Ministry has opted for European over US warplanes for the world's biggest fighter-jet aircraft order in 15 years, snubbing lobbying efforts by US President Barack Obama.

The contest may not be over yet, with approval by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's cabinet required following the Defence Ministry's final recommendation. ''A remaining uncertainty is that the defining nature of the US-Indian strategic partnership might trump the purely operational and technical considerations,'' said Kapil Kak, a retired Indian air vice-marshal.


Okay, same writer, same article, but Business Week sensationalizes the headline to another level:

U.S. Loses in Biggest Fighter-Jet Sale in 15 Years in India

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby RamaY » 29 Apr 2011 19:34

I think the fear is even deep rooted. Imagine what other potential buyers will say. US fighters failed to pass the criteria for SDRE NAM India; they must be really bad. EU companies will use this win to push their products to other potential buyers.


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