India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 29 Apr 2011 19:43

Vishnu wrote: I believe there is merit in the argument that the selection process was NOT objective.

There may be truth in the argument that according to the 600 + technical parameters planes were assessed on .. NONE of the jets made it.

I entirely accept the argument that the IAF SHOULD get the jet is truly wants ... in which case ... this entire tender process is a joke ... where companies end up spending upwards of 25 million dollars to fly down jets to get them evaluated in what is, realistically, a lost cause for them.

As an example .. Did the IAF really need the F-16 to fly down to India for it to be failed on the grounds that its design life was reaching an end ? (Assuming that this was the thinking in the IAF). Did the Gripen really need to fly down a prototype to India for the IAF to be convinced that the jet was still a product in development? Or is it really fair that the jets that did badly in the technical trials were assessed on the basis of one bad day (the Leh high altitude tests for example). CISMOA and other intrusive US laws were ALWAYS present ... If the IAF was concerned about these (assuming that they were) ... then why invite the US jets for the tender in the first place ?

Somebody told me yesterday ... slightly exaggerated ... but interesting nonetheless ... "Its like the IAF was told to go to a showroom to buy a sports car and they said `Give me that gorgeous red Ferrari !" Sure, the Ferraris in this case, the Rafale and the Typhoon are incredible platforms ... NO disputing that ... its just the process I am questioning ...

Thanks
Vishnu



Vishnu, I have followed your posts with some regularity and found them to be quite informative.

This is the first instance where I would vehemently disagree with you. Not because of the face value of the arguments you make, but because I find the underlying facts to be mistaken.

With all due respect, let me point out a few big ones:

a) IAF/MoD never specified specific planes or versions to the vendors. It was LM's decision to field or not to field F-16, and what version to field. As was Boeing's to field a version of SH that was diluted (as Rakesh has correctly pointed out). Similarly, it was upto SAAB to decide on Gripen, and for Dassault to field either M2K-5 or Rafale. Gripen could have chosen to not fly the prototype to India. They had sufficient notice of time to decide whether or not they were ready to fly-in.

b) The 600+ criteria were known to all vendors in advance, as were the conditions under which these aircraft were to be tested. They could easily have chosen to not participate, modify designs, etc.

c) Was it fair? Fairness is a very loose word and too easily redefined by slight changes in context and perspective. With 600+ criteria one could easily change definition of fairness. As you have pointed out, change in a few would have easily qualified all.

d) It is misleading to make arguments based on number of criteria by saying -- "oh well, out of the 600+ criteria, if 10 were this way or that way, then ....". The 10 which make the difference might be most critical factors. Say for instance -- does the plane fly? vs. commonality in tires with other aircraft. Both a single criteria but with vastly different consequences.

e) Similarly, misleading is the argument about "one bad day in Leh". That one bad day would be the one when a rational enemy decides to attack Leh knowing your aircraft will not be taking off or will not be able to carry the necessary payload. It is not a matter of tuning like some have pointed out -- but a far more complex engineering problem of optimizing the design. Tuning might allow an aircraft to take off, but will it allow it to carry the payload, what about runway length requirements, what about climb rates, what about...

f) Finally, the cost of $25 million that you mention. The extensive evaluations undertaken by IAF were not free either! Should IAF charge the vendors for the detailed feedback on the aircraft that they are sharing with them? What would a consulting company charge for that thorough an evaluation? So, it cuts both ways -- IAF could make an argument that it is not fair that some vendors, knowing all the criteria and evaluation program, should field half-baked and/or diluted aircraft and take advantage of IAF's commitment to evaluate all thoroughly. In the same vein, one could argue that they wasted the time.

All that said -- it boils down to something simple. Were the requirements clear to the vendor at the onset? Was it clear about the process to be followed? If the answer is Yes to both, then it is not for vendor or IAF to question fairness about the process. Vendors made an informed decision to participate and IAF followed through with its promise to evaluate (whether or not the aircrafts were half-baked/diluted/etc.). Had IAF rejected F-16 or Gripen on one basis or another like you said -- Vendors would have complained that they were not even given a chance to participate in the evaluation and rejected without due process.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby UBanerjee » 29 Apr 2011 19:51

koti wrote:Ref:Debal and Prabhu.

From the past few pages, I just realized how incumbent the repulsion to US of a is in general.
I feel US is seen equal a threat to India as China is.


General fear involving Anglo-Saxons is the root. Unkil will press the magic button and send India tumbling back into destitution onlee. That is the framework behind much of this.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gilles » 29 Apr 2011 19:58

Singha wrote:all imho:

Rafale pros

Rafale cons

EF pros


EF cos

[6] probably more % of critical US made components, though rafale for sure has some too

common factors


All Rafale can carry a buddy-buddy refuelling pod allowing it to refuel another Rafale.
My source claims Rafale has NO US parts

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Lalmohan » 29 Apr 2011 19:58

seems that its impossible these days to have any discussion on brf without 2-3 people being greviously insulted, or 10-15 people contributing white noise, 1-2 inscrutable comments, the odd transcendental daliesque intervention (and the obligatory lalchix) in amidst the rest of the discussions
oh well
so be it
lets enjoy

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 29 Apr 2011 20:02

Well put Lalmohan. BRF - in one way – is a microcosm of our Lok Sabha...a lot of arguments (many pointless) and lively discussions. We are like this onlee :D I have never seen a thread move this fast!!! WOW! Amazing.

Vishnu Som: Saar, may I humbly suggest that you leave the MMRCA discussion because you are just going to get crucified no matter what you say. Your presence is needed in the artillery thread. Any help that you can provide would be greatly appreciated ;)

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby andy B » 29 Apr 2011 20:07

Beebul....this should put some perspective on Tiffy.

Tiffy at 2010 Farnborough flying with a full payload

2 paveway II
4 amraams
2 asraams
3 fuel tanks
:twisted:

Note the use of fair share of the burner understandable though given what he is carrying around


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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Boreas » 29 Apr 2011 20:21

RajeshA wrote:Perhaps one template that was used in the selection was how to prevent aircraft technology from getting into the hands of the Chinese!

The Chinese would not be getting any aircraft technology from the Americans, and Russians would not want to part with their top of the line technology either, so the soft spot, the weak link are the Europeans, and with their economic woes they might just be tempted into selling technology to the Chinese, overriding the objections of the Americans!

Good thought. However if that is the case, then the looser among EFT and Rafale will be even more eager to have a courtship with panda!! Specially if it is rafale.

RajeshA wrote:So perhaps it was just a means of preempting such an outcome! Actually it makes sense to partner with Europeans and to base the decision on technical grounds. There was little to expect from America on any big strategic issues!

I remember them pulling us on to the NSG table!
I prefer the idea of rejecting unkil on technical grounds and on account of the unsuitable pacts they were forcing us to sign.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gagan » 29 Apr 2011 20:26

Excuse me guys,
But did CISMOA play any part in the technical evaluations yet?

I don't think that of the 634 criteria, there would be even one that will deal with TOT or with past sanctions or with Spares availability.

Uptil now my feeling is that only the technical parameters, flight profile, warfighting capabilities, the plane, the software usefulness, the avionics, the weapon systems were tested.

Anything other than that is NOT IAF's brief to make a decision. That is MoD's job.

So any suggestions that CISMOA made a difference or that there was a feeling that the US wouldn't transfer tech are most likely speculation at this point.

If the criteria was only technical parameters of the individual aircraft, and the F-16 and the F-18 lost - Man that means something, because these two birds came in with working AESAs and the rest didn't come with them. This will have a bearing on future sales of all the birds for sure.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 29 Apr 2011 20:27

Oh, and about the Ferrari comment. That exaggeration is plain silliness and rooted in ignorance of the person who was trying to use an analogy.

A sports car also has many criteria for evaluation. Therefore, "best" is in how/where/when the user is likely to race that sports car. If I set the criteria properly including fuel economy, road conditions, weather conditions, etc. then it might turn out that the Ferrari is going to be a show toy, and the auto-rickshaw is the best "sports car" (provided 4 wheels is not a criteria :-) )

Even with the realm of sports cars, you have a range -- the usual culprits being Ferrari, Bugatti, Mercedes AMG, Porsche. But then you also have the range of rally cars which are no slouch in performance and would leave most of the above in cloud of dirt.

So, given proper context for that analogy -- "Go buy the best sports car" it is not automatically the Ferrari, but ... requires a follow up question "best for what conditions". At the simplest would be a single parameter -- Speed. Even then, a somewhat knowledgeable buyer would have further context to the speed: quarter mile dash, top speed, 0-60 mph timing, 30-100 mph timing, etc. Even a buyer with unlimited resources would not be able to get away from these details. A race car for use in Formula 1 vs. use in Rally (which begs more questions about conditions of the rally).

Sorry about the longish argument -- but it irks me when people use oversimplified analogy that on its face appear well suited analogies to prove/disprove a point, but are deeply flawed.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby aditya.agd » 29 Apr 2011 20:32

I am happy that Indian Policy makers are sticking to the demands of end users. I am impressed with their technical selection. I am extremely happy with all of your discussions. Some of the guys in this forum like Kartik have excellent understanding of tech issues.

However I was disappointed by the journalists on this forum. They tend to be highly opinionated and judgmental. They tend to bully people around. I hope they change.

US is a great country with flawed foreign policy. They tend to reward terrorists / human rights abusers for short term gains. Now if US bullies India they will kill the hen that gives golden egg. They not even gt the golden egg. I hope better sense prevails.

May the best bird win of the two.

Anyway, all's well that ends well. US is a great country with a flawed foreign policy. Their foreign policies tend to reward terrorists / human rights abusers for short term m

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gagan » 29 Apr 2011 20:36

On the subject of preventing tech from slipping into the Chinese's hands.
There are two aircraft out there where this risk exists.

1. Rafale
2. Gripen.

Rafale because the French will sell if it makes business sense. They were after all pushing for defence sales to China.

The Gripen, might have made its way to the Pakistanis, but thankfully they don't have the money for it, and are buying only chinese planes these days. The net-centric capabilities that the Gripen offers will certainly be something that the Chinese would like to have a close look at. On top of this the Gripen was relatively affordable aircraft which might have been within Pakistan's reach. We need to ensure that that aircraft doesn't end up with the Chinese - although the American component in there helps out.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ramana » 29 Apr 2011 20:38

Singha wrote:comment by JCR in milphotos.net forum mrca thread about Roemer's resignation:

US has always had a different understanding of diplomacy than the rest of the world.
Usually it is "sign this or we will bomb you", at least this time it was "sign this or I will pack my bags".One of the perks of being a nuclear power I guess


maybe next envoy will remodel the US embassy per vastu as the wiki cable suggested for its April 1 spoof!


Also guys all this MUTU arguments are not germane. Remember the reality.


TSP nuke weapons systems:

PRC provided the bomb in the 80s and US provided the delivery vehicles. True they sold the initial batch without the bomb racks but they told the where to buy them from(France). No crap about stores relase aerodynamics etc. All plug and play attachemnts.
Buying the solahs will provide spares to those delivery vehicles, keep them flying and most likely from spare cash from the Indian buy.

Any realistic person would know that one cant try to sell the same stuff to both sides!

and recall the solah mfg executive ran away from India after being revealed as possessing confidential info on the Tender. His company should have been debarred right then. Yet it was still in running. No apology form them or their country minions for possesing confidential info!.

I dont understand the fear of Wrath of Khan. Try to understand Khan also has to fear our security. You can t hope to make money from desh whil feeding snakes to bite India.

As I said earlier this selection is revealing MUTU minds in media and even the forum. :(

Finally MMS govt has made a decision on its merits and not subject to whims and fancies of Khan and we are log kya kahenge!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby rajithn » 29 Apr 2011 20:43

Good evening, Gentlemen. I have been a lurker all these months. I have found just reading the various posts illuminating. I have cheered with you when good things have happened to/in India, cursed when things havent gone well..
I have been joyous the past couple of days after I read about India's downselect of the EF and Rafale. Not because we are cocking a snook at the U.S (I dont believe the decision had anything to do with that) but just that our Air Force is able to choose what it wants. Of course, we are still a far distance away from actually seeing these two a/c in our AFBs. Dont know and cannot foresee what political decisions can come in the way of the technical decision.
What has got my goat, and prompted me to step out of the closet today, is the range of scathing comments in the media (and on BR) about how we have given up the best chance to forge a "strategic" relationship with the U.S. Now suddently doubts are being thrown at the fairness of the decision making & tendering process!
1. The Indian Air Force does not have to worry about Strategic relationships and perhaps understands better that strategic relationships are not made or broken on the grounds of who I purchase equipement from.
2. They have expressed their choices based on the parameters they set for evaluation. (The eminent journalist should understand that the 600+ parameters will have different weightages for qualifying/disqualifying)
3. All the participants knew the 600+ parameters before they spent the millions of $$$ in flying these aircraft here. They should have fielded the aircraft best suited nopt just to measure up to those parameters, but to outperform the others. (Would the same crowd of people who are booing the decision today been quiet if India aribitarily chose an a/c? I dont see them fussing about the FMS single source purchases that India has made in the recent months!)
The race isnt over yet. I worry that the GoI may come under pressure to throw technical considerations to the winds and go with one of the U.S a/c. That would mean trashing the efforts/hardwork that was put in by the selection teams/pilots of our Air Force. Now that would be fair, would it? If the actual needs of the AF is not going to be considered, why have EF and Dassault waste M$$$ on flying their a/c in for the tendering process?
The U.S is going to react and react badly:
1. They are going to turn down the heat on our troublesome neighbor.
2. Expect them to pressurise us to reduce our involvement in Af.
3. Expect to be slapped with challenges at the next environmental summit
4. Expect road blocks to be put up in multiple places - they are going to lean on institutions where they command heft to ensure we pay the price.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 20:43

Gagan wrote:So any suggestions that CISMOA made a difference or that there was a feeling that the US wouldn't transfer tech are most likely speculation at this point.

If the criteria was only technical parameters of the individual aircraft, and the F-16 and the F-18 lost - Man that means something, because these two birds came in with working AESAs and the rest didn't come with them. This will have a bearing on future sales of all the birds for sure.


why would you think that CISMOA would not have played a role in even bring those plane for evaluation and failed on say, few performance parameters like communication equipments had issues in the protocols, or it could not engage a weapon that we would like to see, or the AESA radar was smudged due to the fact we didn't sign the documents yet?

If one has the best equipments, and fails to present it for trials 'cause of agreements, then it may not fail by feature, but it would fail by testing standards to the requirements.

I think, we are starting find avenues why the heck uncle plane's performance did'nt match up. The answer must be relative.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Boreas » 29 Apr 2011 20:45

Any update on incorporation of TVN in EFT/Rafale??

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby putnanja » 29 Apr 2011 20:46

For those saying that the US aircraft have operating AESA radars, the important question is not just whether they offered the product, but whether they offered to share the technology with us. Typhoon and Rafale have promised us that, whereas the US hasn't.

Unfortunately, Vishnu or other in the media aren't highlighting that fact.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gagan » 29 Apr 2011 20:50

SaiK,
All that I am saying is that the two US birds did not make it inspite of having AESAs - that should have given them clear leads over the rest of the pack.

It shows that the planes themselves are lagging in the other performance parameters compared to the two which made the final list.

Will the fact that CISMOA wasn't signed have a bearing on the plane's radar being displayed to the IAF crew? Some of the trials were held in the planes' native countries. It seems that the US in particular was keen to do the weapons trials (and perhaps the AESA displays) in the US only.

Unkil's planes refusing to display some items for trial because of CISMOA or some other law will have disqualified that plane from the competition at the outset for failing to meet the RFP itself.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby jai » 29 Apr 2011 20:58

Got this on mail....


Letter from an Ordinary Indian to the Ayatollahs of Potomac

Dear folks,

The Indian MMRCA contest short listing just got announced, and it seems we have sinned by not buying your planes, and caused enough heart burn for your ambassador to leave abruptly.

Looks like the result of a huge misunderstanding. May be you don’t understand India.

I think not selecting the F teen birds now is the best thing to happen to our relationship in a long long time.

I hope it forces some serious contemplation at your end on what went wrong in our relationship as you presumed all along that you had this deal in your back pockets.

This is also needed, because heck, we will still spend hundreds of $ US BN in the coming decades, and will/can still do lots of business – specially where you have what we may want to pay for. Let’s face it, in this deal, this was not the case.

I hope you now realize and "see" the trust deficit that exists due to your double standards being forced on to us, and for a change see what we see - our realities in the world we live in.

A highly professional IAF has done exactly what Mr Tell-is advocated - it looked out for its own and thus OUR national interests - so why should it upset anyone ? After all, its business, and you have been trying to do the same in selling your birds to us. Anyways, don’t get sad as there is more where this one is coming from.

Second, business is business, relationships should not be mixed with business - you say so more than anyone else, and when we do it, you say it upsets?? Make up your mind, and for gods sake, give us a break !!

Otherwise, Why should our national and strategic relationship depend only on business ? You don’t follow this with Pukis, and give them free weapons - even when they create terrorists that hate you and want to kill you; and dragon does so much more business with you than we do, so why should we not presume that you will not choose them over us when the $#@& hits the fan in our neighborhood, and in which case, why should we spend out protection money on you, specially as you seem to be making this a case of protection money payout against the dragon.

Hell, my neighbourhood goon is better, and keeps his word of protecting the neighbourhood from other goons after he’s taken our protection money. You behave more like our neighbourhood corrupt cop, who actually has goons on its roles - who trouble you all the time, and when you ask for their help/protection, they make you pay for it and still not provide it as it would hit their “business”, see my point ?

Also, if we are to accept your logic - that between us, relationship = money we pay you, then heck, apply the same logic to our goon neighbor - don't give them free arms, as their sole motive in life is to hate us and kill us, and you know this better than anyone else, because you are next in their list.

Or you want us to believe that in reality, you prefer goons to fair, law abiding and hard working folk. This is interesting as you claim to be the champion of these kind of democratic people the world over, and are beating up some folks on this pretext, whilst completely supporting goons every where else.

In reality, we are confused as to the real you. No wonder now we are on our guard and take your utterings with a pinch of salt.

Coming back to puki goons - you call them an important strategic partner in “your war against terror” and so give them free weapons. You also call us natural and strategic partners - so why charge us for weapons, give it free like you do to puks or do we need to become goons first to qualify, in which case, can we hit the neighboring goon first ? Got some scores to settle.

Point is, you need to walk the talk and earn our trust before you expect us to keep jumping though the hoops for you.

Sure, ours can be, and will be a match made in heaven, as we both have a lot of goodwill and common values amongst our ordinary citizens, do lots of business together, some of our best brains work for your betterment. Indeed, most of us actually like and admire the US for most things, except your double standards.

The other area where we do not have a common interest is to play the global big bully. At least not yet, as we need to sort our own issues first and we have many, and these you now take for granted – feeding the thousands of hungry mouths, educating the million masses, providing them basic drinking water, electricity, roads, Medicare etc. So, give us a few years, and if we can get over our Gandhian philosophies of being peace lovers; who knows; we may join you, but hey, till then, we can still interact, do business and do stuff together, though as equal partners and not as your side kicks.

Sincerely yours,

Ordinary Indian

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Vishnu » 29 Apr 2011 21:00

Signing off from this thread. Please don't bother replying to this post. Thanks

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ronnieshaw » 29 Apr 2011 21:06

Well, I guess some media channels are trying to potray that operational AESA is the only criteria which is significant ... in that case fitting an AESA to a spitfire should do IAF good.

I am sure Thales is a respectable name in the industry and Rafale has already been tested with their RBE-2 AA radar. Further development is ongoing and pretty much in the roadmap ... including the 'cloud concept' for Rafale !!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 21:12

Cost was always the only big issue with europeans. But I guess that was never part of the down select criteria.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Dilbu » 29 Apr 2011 21:19

You can't hope to make money from desh while feeding snakes to bite India.

400% true onlee.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 29 Apr 2011 21:19

SaiK wrote:Cost was always the only big issue with europeans. But I guess that was never part of the down select criteria.

Air Marshal P K Barbora (Retd), ex-Vice Chief of the Air Staff, stated that they (IAF) are not looking at the cost.

The only problem with that statement is like daddyji taking his nana-sa, pyara-sa, chota-sa beta to a toy store and telling him to play with what ever he wants. When it comes time to leave the toy store, beta is walking out with Sony Playstation 3...because he likes it the most (however it is the most expensive of all the toys). So when it comes time for daddyji to pay, he opens his wallet and his Adam's Apple becomes quite prounounced! All of a sudden reality sets in and instead of Sony Playstation 3, daddyji can only afford a tricycle.

Remember, the MMRCA choice has to be approved by the Govt and that still has not happened. Like I said in the past, it is only over when Unkil gives the okay. And Unkil is mighty pissed and MMS is so obsessed with making a legacy for himself...he will gladly give in to the pressure. The dhoti needs to be squeezed real hard and Unkil knows where to squeeze.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby sum » 29 Apr 2011 21:28

You can't hope to make money from desh while feeding snakes to bite India.

Well, C-17s at 600m $ a piece and loads of expensive P-8Is and C-130Js hardly seem to confirm the quoted theory...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 21:30

>> Like I said in the past, it is only over when Unkil gives the okay

your faith in the omnipotence and omniscience of the khan is misplaced. if he were that powerful, a lot of misfortunes would not have come his way.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 29 Apr 2011 21:31

shiv wrote:Where is that news item that said that the IAF tested all 6 aircraft for over 600 parameters (was the number 643?).

Shiv ji for that we will have to wait for a maverick like AM Rajkumar to publish his memoirs regarding the MRCA testing (akin to the alpha jet and hawk saga). :D

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Prem Kumar » 29 Apr 2011 21:32

shukla wrote:'Exclusion of US firms from IAF jet deal a setback for ties'
Indian Express

Ashely Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said the move


Why is an endowment for "International Peace" fretting over weapon sales? Shouldn't they be worrying about human happiness index, peaceful co-existence and the protection of Walrus'es?

To re-phrase Freud, "sometimes a plane is just a plane". It may be worthwhile for the U.S to remember that.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 29 Apr 2011 21:32

negi wrote:Shiv ji for that we will have to wait for a maverick like AM Rajkumar to publish his memoirs regarding the MRCA testing (akin to the alpha jet and hawk saga). :D

Well said negi...30 years from now we will see a story in Vayu (or some other mag) about the MMRCA purchase.

Singha wrote:your faith in the omnipotence and omniscience of the khan is misplaced. if he were that powerful, a lot of misfortunes would not have come his way.

The Khan's misfortunes are of his own doing...however that does not negate the power of the khan. He may be down, but he ain't out.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Shankar » 29 Apr 2011 21:33

shankarosky is sad but not so much that will not congratulate Eurofighter -it is is indeed a great aircraft - aero india showed it.We will get different technology and that in long run will help us develop our own. Good choice IAF for standing up to US pressure -hope the price comes down enough so we can buy 200 typhoon

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 29 Apr 2011 21:38

Admiral yes Rakhi is still in combetishun all it needs is a sensational piece in media as to how Katrina or Shatru were involved in casting couch with Shakti Kapoor (read MoD).

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 29 Apr 2011 21:42

between the dhoti shiver squeeze and the gun point on the head on cismoa, unkill might settle for back waters of Kerala.

also, there would be cost reduction per say on the euro fighter since the labor and raw materials could be sourced from desh. it has been already over priced, and there was even a complain from member nations that ef2k is expensive compared to JSF.

what goes up, has to come down.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby akula » 29 Apr 2011 21:53

Gurus, i have been a lurker for close to 3 years in BR. Was a real pleasure assimilating all the info amalgamated over this topic.
I managed to get my membership to this exquisite club minutes ago.

Coming to the topic, folks are saying that our govt has still to give the final approval & that downselect can be overthrown in favour of one of those showing displeasure.
I seriously doubt this, it will require immense courage from MMS folks(sans IAF/MOD) to alter the path and go another way with something, which IAF warriors aren't through with.

Any remote chance of this will bring down extreme heat on our government panels, its credentials and will show utter disrespect for the professional manhours/efforts put in by IAF for MMRCA.I am thoroughly elated by EU birds making it to the finals, especially Rafale.
I couldn't stop myself when i read the news on Stratpost that night & immediately posted on FB.

Just my bits.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 21:59

I had posted a vid yesterday of rafale cornering some F18s in a naval exercise somewhere. here is one of rafale's doing the same to to F16s @ nellis. looking at the F16s they seem to be block30-40ish resident aggressor models - truly the best dogfighter in the f16 family flown by veterans of the art who do this with all visitors yet the rafale shows HUD cam footage of locking up these teens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZfm2dtyyPI

mostly the rafale seems to consistently get the better of the teens 1:1 in exercises atleast.

I have no doubt the typhoon can do the same thing to the teens.

the block52 or fat_walrus block60 really isnt as good a dogfighter and would lose sooner than block30-40 probably.
Last edited by Singha on 29 Apr 2011 22:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 29 Apr 2011 21:59

Manmohan–Sonia Gandhi Tussle Forces India to Reject US Bids for IAF Deal
http://abclive.in/invetigative-news/social-investigation/270-manmohansonia-gandhi-india-us-bid-iaf-deal.html

'Life of the IAF pilot is more important than ties'
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-life-of-the-iaf-pilot-paramount-naresh-chandra/20110429.htm

US groups look for answers on jet snub
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/08f82c52-7277-11e0-96bf-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1KvtOooKw

Quote from the above article....exactly what I said!

US bidders were riled by the success of the Rafale, a fighter jet that has yet to be sold outside France. It had been withdrawn from the contest, and then re-entered.

Please see link below...first paragraph of my post...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5905&p=1077548#p1077548

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 29 Apr 2011 22:15

the US politically muscled out rafale from the south korea deal and eurofighter from singapore. they messed up the brazil deal too before brazil realized the game.

they are the last people to be seeking a level playing field - their 1st and last dharma is to tilt the playing field by any means possible.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Muppalla » 29 Apr 2011 22:19

Now as it is between two European things, it will be real interesting to see how the negotiations are going to be and will be the latest offers.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Prem » 29 Apr 2011 22:21

I have this crazy idea, should not the buyers be united in inviting bids from suppliers . India and Brazil can cooperate with each other in selection and order the fighter plane from either French or other Europeans vendor.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Muppalla » 29 Apr 2011 22:22

I am damn sure that no new efforts will bring back US-teens into consideration again. India will go with Rafale (for pure tech) or Typhoon (future geo political vision). Period.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 29 Apr 2011 22:27

should we mark it as end of USA sales to the nations? Or this decision is only because of our aloofness from many dependent groupism?

will India's decision will be followed up by Brazil? if we are able make typhoon cheaper, will UK chuck JSF and rather order typhoon, made in India? Will it allow Australia to follow course...and so on...
Our insistent on AESA allowed Typhoon and Rafale to work harder on it? is the cost of integration of wepons of our choice will include the baseline cost?
While producing 126-200 European aircrafts, we'll enter deep into the european circle? Will Typhoon be proved cheaper to rafale like a case seen in Engine bid for MK2?

I still somehow like the clean simplistic design of EF...and waiting eagerly to see if they reveal something from their trick bag...though rafale seems bit ahead in pricing, naval version, and ground attack capabilities..
Last edited by manum on 29 Apr 2011 22:41, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 29 Apr 2011 22:29

The F/A-18 Super Hornet has already entered service with the Royal Australian Air Force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RAAF_Super_Hornet_Amberley.jpg


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