News - Osama Bin Laden - killed In Pakistan

[abhishek_sharma]

So how did they do it, hain jee?

1. Presence of airbases in Pakistan (It would have been difficult to do this mission from a ship in Arabian sea)
2. HUMINT (courier)
3. TFTA technology to jam radars ityadi
4. TFTA technology to monitor e-mails/phones
5. Pakis can't retaliate (Their missiles can't reach US) (this implies political will)


..please expand/improve

[Anujan]

JuD chief Hafeez - e - Pig held funeral prayers for OBL in Pakistan.

[amdavadi]

Unkil use jinn technology to get OBL...they didnt cross into pakiland.There was no delta force nor SEAL team to shoot OBL
in the head.

[SSridhar]

From NYT

The commando team had raced into the Pakistani night from a base in Jalalabad, just across the border in Afghanistan.

Its not Jalalabad, its Ghazi Air force Base
N 33.988, E 72.5669
Ghazi Air Force Base is located near the village of Tarbela Ghazi, north of Islamabad.

Altair, NYT says it was Jalalabad while a few posters here, including you, claim it was Tarbela. How do you claim it was Tarbela ?

[abhishek_sharma]

Source on Ghazi airbase based on Paki information

[Narad]

Apparently in order to preserve H&D, the paki deaf&dumb forum has been downed since OBL was halaled.

The admins kept on insiting that bin-lalten was killed by paki and US joint forces and kept banning scores of Indian members who argued that it was a unilateral US offensive.

And finally as reports poured in that pakis didnt ever knew what was crawling in their chaddis, the phorum is off since then.

EDIT: Another paki DnD is down. Is something fishy?

[hulaku]

I rarely post here but am a regular at Military Photos.

And there are subtle hints about India's role as some of the members there are actually service members of different Western Armed Forces.

There is a comment by a senior gent about "Navy Seals in Srinagar"

And then another guy who I know is a SpecOp based in Aghanistan taking about how the IAF chaps with him were elated and celebrating (in Afghanistan)

Interesting stuff to say the least.

[Altair]

Altair, NYT says it was Jalalabad while a few posters here, including you, claim it was Tarbela. How do you claim it was Tarbela ?

http://tribune.com.pk/story/161558/the- ... bbottabad/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... tabad-raid
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/how_ ... CHej6zvI5K

It is the nearest one and has been used by US marines.I used Google Earth and the run way near the dam is visible and is near to Abbottabad than any other base.

[SSridhar]

Source on Ghazi airbase based on Paki information

It doesn't seem to mention Ghazi anymore.

[Johann]

SS,

The first to mention Ghazi was Marc Ambinder writing for National Journal
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42858824/ns ... bin_laden/

The other major source is the Telegraph;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... Obama.html

Some other sources Ive seen suggested that they launched from Afghanistan, but refuelled and staged from Tarbela Airport/Ghazi.

Something else interesting is that they would have had to cross Pakistan to get Bin Laden's body to the USS Carl Vinson in the Arabian Sea.

This was allegedly done three hours later, after the helicopters landed in Afghanistan.

The fact that it was safe to fly across Pakistan after the USG informed the Pakistanis, despite the earlier scramble suggests that the PA and PAF decided at the highest levels to at least feign total cooperation for now, rather than damage their image further by say, closing Pakistani airspace to all American flights for 24 hours as a show of sovereignty.

[Chandragupta]

I think our fellow mullahs need to stop being in awe of the US so much. US is all powerful and we SDRE Indians can do nothing only except cowering & shivering in our dark temples. Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan or Pakistan can inflict any substantial damage on US, nor does the US have a sizable Muslim population that it needs to watch out for domestic repercussions. Of course, our netas lack spine & all but it hardly is that easy.

[abhishek_sharma]

Source on Ghazi airbase based on Paki information

It doesn't seem to mention Ghazi anymore.

It appears that links are being changed. In any case, this article has the following sentence

Another official said four helicopters took off from the Ghazi air base in northwest Pakistan.

But this is all from Pakis, so it is probably unreliable. I get more than 33,000 results when I googled "helicopters took off from the Ghazi air base in northwest Pakistan."

[shiv]

EDIT: Another paki DnD is down. Is something fishy?

Empathy for Osama who must be pretty fishy himself by now.

All you idiot PakLurks have to come here now

muahahahahahahahahaha

[Klaus]

Something else interesting is that they would have had to cross Pakistan to get Bin Laden's body to the USS Carl Vinson in the Arabian Sea.

This was allegedly done three hours later, after the helicopters landed in Afghanistan.

The fact that it was safe to fly across Pakistan after the USG informed the Pakistanis, despite the earlier scramble suggests that the PA and PAF decided at the highest levels to at least feign total cooperation for now, rather than damage their image further by say, closing Pakistani airspace to all American flights for 24 hours as a show of sovereignty.

Very compelling point Johann ji! In all this melee and confusion, nobody has brought this aspect up so far. I guess this is the reason why TSP is seeking credit and calling it a joint operation. The Pakistanis must have thought that there is no point in shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

[kmkraoind]

Wondering if TSPA complies to US diktat of returning whatever salvaged helicopter wreck so that technology like, data connectors, carbon fiber technology could not fell in Chinty hands.

[Lalmohan]

the US must have allowed for a hostile Pak reception scenario - implying significant airborne assets on standby or deployed - ELINT, AWACS, jammers, fighters, tankers and drones
and quite possibly ombaba making a "stone age" statement to kiyani in between

so much activity over the Isloo air defence grid means that PAF would have known (as would IAF) and might have been shivering in their shalwars or were totally blinded by superior unkil djinn magik

one wonders if the IAF took up precuationary deployments over jammu and punjab?

[VikramS]

I rarely post here but am a regular at Military Photos.

And there are subtle hints about India's role as some of the members there are actually service members of different Western Armed Forces.

There is a comment by a senior gent about "Navy Seals in Srinagar"

And then another guy who I know is a SpecOp based in Aghanistan taking about how the IAF chaps with him were elated and celebrating (in Afghanistan)

Interesting stuff to say the least.

halaku
I went and read the thread. The guy talks about IAF guys having a "Eureka" movement. The idea being if the Americans can do it then so can India.

I very much doubt that any non-US forces were directly involved. News reports suggest that even the Canadian, UQueendom and Australians were not informed about the operation OR even the US intel regarding OBL. Indian Intel though may have given some help

[RajeshA]

So how did they do it, hain jee?

1. Presence of airbases in Pakistan (It would have been difficult to do this mission from a ship in Arabian sea)
2. HUMINT (courier)
3. TFTA technology to jam radars ityadi
4. TFTA technology to monitor e-mails/phones
5. Pakis can't retaliate (Their missiles can't reach US) (this implies political will)


..please expand/improve

We are all working on beam technology. Please give it another 200 years! Then you can have your Hafeez and any other pig you want!

[UBanerjee]

I think our fellow mullahs need to stop being in awe of the US so much. US is all powerful and we SDRE Indians can do nothing only except cowering & shivering in our dark temples. Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan or Pakistan can inflict any substantial damage on US, nor does the US have a sizable Muslim population that it needs to watch out for domestic repercussions. Of course, our netas lack spine & all but it hardly is that easy.

Look to Israel.

BTW, why should IMs be angry about taking out high value terrorist targets? And if they are, we have far bigger problems that can't be solved by covering our eyes.

[Gagan]

The LOC may have a ceasefire now, but that is a heavily militarized area.

Both armed forces have a fairly good SAM and Anti Aircraft Gun cover, several Manpads etc. They monitor the LOC 24x7 for intrusions.

Both armed forces routinely lob UAV's at each other providing regular employment to the AAA systems and occasional Shoulder fired SAM.

If a helo crosses over, you can bet that the Corps commander would be woken up. If half a dozen helos cross over low and fast, both the COAS and the ISI chief would be woken up.

There is no truth and no possibility of India having been used as a launch point for such an op.

[chaanakya]

Tentative Dimension of OBL compound ( for exact figure one should get land documents from Cantonment Authority Abbotabad/Kakul or contact Dus Numberi.

Shiv ji , as usual you are spot on. Its huge and run is 40 to 50 mts on heli drop. We are seeing backside of the building in other photos

Main compound was ready in June 2005. In 2004 picture, there was nothing.

[abhishek_sharma]

BTW, why should IMs be angry about taking out high value terrorist targets? And if they are, we have far bigger problems that can't be solved by covering our eyes.

Who says Osama is a terrorist, ask Muslim religious leaders

From incredulity to hostility towards the US -- reactions of Indian Muslim organisations changed rapidly as it became clear that the news of Osama bin Laden's death in a CIA operation in Abbottabad in Pakistan was not American propaganda.

Muslim religious leaders, cutting across sectarian divisions, questioned the "America-propounded" description of the al-Qaida leader as a terrorist, asking what judicial procedures had been followed to pronounce him as one. There was, however, obvious unease at the fact that he had been found to be living in Pakistan and had been killed in an US operation on Pakistani soil.

Syed Ahmed Bukhari, Imam of Jama Masjid, objected to Osama being called a terrorist, "When did any court of law in the world convict Bin Laden of terrorist activities? It is only America's assertion and that of Nato that he was one. Why should we believe them. As for the government of India's reactions, I would want to know their views on what is happening in Palestine even now when thousands of Muslims are being killed by Israel with US help. The killing (of Osama) in a continuation of US interference in Libya, Iraq and Palestine."

Maulana Arshad Madani, president of one faction of the Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind, also disagreed that Osama was a terrorist. "I do not believe he indulged in terrorism. The question to be asked is why did US come into Afghanistan in the first place? Who created Osama? Americans did to exterminate the Russians. Now that their need has been fulfilled, they term Osama, who was at one point their best friend, a terrorist. It is symptomatic of the American way of functioning of their constant use and throw policy with countries and people."

The Indian Muslim establishment initially reacted with incredulity to the news of Osama's death, citing US operations in Tora Bora as a precedent where claims of his killing had later been proved false. It took statements from home minister P Chidambaram and Pakistani MP Sherry Rehman to convince them of the veracity of these reports, after which prominent Muslim leaders said Osama was a one-time American ally with whom relations had soured because he had lost his utility which was to tackle the Russians in Afghanistan.

There was, however, some resentment about the fact that he was in Pakistan. Imam Bukhari said it proved the contention that ISI gave shelter to terrorists. "I am not saying Osama was a terrorist but the fact that outfits like JeM and LeT have bank accounts in the US show that US and ISI jointly sponsor the acts of terrorism in India."

Cutting across the Muslim sectarian divide, the reactions remained similar. Asghar Ali Imam Mehdi Salafi, general secretary of the Markaze Jamiat Ahle Hadees Hind – one of the oldest Muslim organisations in the country and believed to have Wahabi roots -- said, "Osama was a puppet of a superpower, in fact the kind of power he wielded and the widespread consequences of his alleged acts could not have been possible if he did not have powerful backers. Now that he has outlived their necessity, they took him out. This is a conspiracy of the enemies of Asia and of Islam to paint Muslims in a bad light."

The overwhelming consensus seemed to be that the US would do well to steer clear of internal matters of sovereign states in which it has no business. "It is only America's contention that Osama was a terrorist. There is no reason for us to take their words at face value. As for his having been killed inside Pakistan by American forces, that is something Pakistan should get worried about," said Jamaat Islam-i-Hind president Jalaluddin Umri.

Also I will repost two pictures:

[hulaku]

halaku
I went and read the thread. The guy talks about IAF guys having a "Eureka" movement. The idea being if the Americans can do it then so can India.

I very much doubt that any non-US forces were directly involved. News reports suggest that even the Canadian, UQueendom and Australians were not informed about the operation OR even the US intel regarding OBL. Indian Intel though may have given some help

You are right, maybe I read too much into it.

Its actually this fantasy about the Khan using best quality SDRE bamboo to put up the TFTA's rear cavity.

[Klaus]

There is talk of POTUS having a brainstorming session last Thursday/Friday with USN chief and Af-Pak theatre of operations leaders about 4 different attack methodologies on the compound:

1.the one which had the highest chance of success and was given the go-ahead by POTUS was the chopper based spec-ops team.
2. The other option mentioned in the MSNBC report was the stealth bomber based route. This would obviously have left little by way of any physical evidence and was not preferred.
3. This option was not mentioned on tv but I am guessing it would be a Tomahawk/cruise missile, ship-launched from off the coast of Karachi.

What could the 4th option be?

Some of these options were put into a limited degree of use if reports are to be believed, so US bases in AFG would have been on operational alert, same with USN CBG's in Arabian sea. Tend to think drone has the same connotation as stealth bomber in Af-Pak after B2's and B-52's were withdrawn after 2001 winter campaign in AFG.

Edit: Thanks Sanku. Its easy to get lost in this fast moving thread.

[Sriman]

^^
Drone?

[Sanku]

Ground joint attack with Pakistan. It was posted on the thread before.

[Chandragupta]

BTW, why should IMs be angry about taking out high value terrorist targets? And if they are, we have far bigger problems that can't be solved by covering our eyes.

Who says Osama is a terrorist, ask Muslim religious leaders

From incredulity to hostility towards the US -- reactions of Indian Muslim organisations changed rapidly as it became clear that the news of Osama bin Laden's death in a CIA operation in Abbottabad in Pakistan was not American propaganda.

Muslim religious leaders, cutting across sectarian divisions, questioned the "America-propounded" description of the al-Qaida leader as a terrorist, asking what judicial procedures had been followed to pronounce him as one. There was, however, obvious unease at the fact that he had been found to be living in Pakistan and had been killed in an US operation on Pakistani soil.

Syed Ahmed Bukhari, Imam of Jama Masjid, objected to Osama being called a terrorist, "When did any court of law in the world convict Bin Laden of terrorist activities? It is only America's assertion and that of Nato that he was one. Why should we believe them. As for the government of India's reactions, I would want to know their views on what is happening in Palestine even now when thousands of Muslims are being killed by Israel with US help. The killing (of Osama) in a continuation of US interference in Libya, Iraq and Palestine."

Maulana Arshad Madani, president of one faction of the Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind, also disagreed that Osama was a terrorist. "I do not believe he indulged in terrorism. The question to be asked is why did US come into Afghanistan in the first place? Who created Osama? Americans did to exterminate the Russians. Now that their need has been fulfilled, they term Osama, who was at one point their best friend, a terrorist. It is symptomatic of the American way of functioning of their constant use and throw policy with countries and people."

The Indian Muslim establishment initially reacted with incredulity to the news of Osama's death, citing US operations in Tora Bora as a precedent where claims of his killing had later been proved false. It took statements from home minister P Chidambaram and Pakistani MP Sherry Rehman to convince them of the veracity of these reports, after which prominent Muslim leaders said Osama was a one-time American ally with whom relations had soured because he had lost his utility which was to tackle the Russians in Afghanistan.

There was, however, some resentment about the fact that he was in Pakistan. Imam Bukhari said it proved the contention that ISI gave shelter to terrorists. "I am not saying Osama was a terrorist but the fact that outfits like JeM and LeT have bank accounts in the US show that US and ISI jointly sponsor the acts of terrorism in India."

Cutting across the Muslim sectarian divide, the reactions remained similar. Asghar Ali Imam Mehdi Salafi, general secretary of the Markaze Jamiat Ahle Hadees Hind – one of the oldest Muslim organisations in the country and believed to have Wahabi roots -- said, "Osama was a puppet of a superpower, in fact the kind of power he wielded and the widespread consequences of his alleged acts could not have been possible if he did not have powerful backers. Now that he has outlived their necessity, they took him out. This is a conspiracy of the enemies of Asia and of Islam to paint Muslims in a bad light."

The overwhelming consensus seemed to be that the US would do well to steer clear of internal matters of sovereign states in which it has no business. "It is only America's contention that Osama was a terrorist. There is no reason for us to take their words at face value. As for his having been killed inside Pakistan by American forces, that is something Pakistan should get worried about," said Jamaat Islam-i-Hind president Jalaluddin Umri.

Also I will repost two pictures:

The article looks like somebody copied from Yawn, replaced 'Pakistani' with 'Indian' and boom, except for the fact that it is, of course, real. Look at the italicized sentence cum ZH style CT at the end, so much for moderate IMs.

[Gagan]

Posting this video of a room in Binladen's compound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUCQ2vRZw2M


This video shows 3 rooms in the compound. It is possible to place these rooms from the pattern of the windows, skylights, doors etc comparing with the outer pictures of the house.

Please post as many pictures of the house as you can find here please.

[abhishek_sharma]

Geographers Had Calculated 81% Chance That Osama Was in Abbottabad

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... ed-81.html

Could Osama bin Laden have been found faster if the CIA had followed the advice of ecosystem geographers from the University of California, Los Angeles? Probably not, but the predictions of UCLA geographer Thomas Gillespie, who, along with colleague John Agnew and a class of undergraduates, authored a 2009 paper predicting the terrorist’s whereabouts, were none too shabby. According to a probabilistic model they created, there was an 80.9% chance that bin Laden was hiding out in Abbottabad, Pakistan, where he was killed last night. And they correctly predicted that he would be in a large town, not a cave.


Credit: MIT International Review

The bin Laden tracking idea began as a project in an undergraduate class on remote sensing that Gillespie, whose expertise is using remote sensing data from satellites to study ecosystems, taught in 2009. Based on information from satellites and other remote sensing systems, and reports on his movements since his last known location, the students created a probabilistic model of where he was likely to be. Their prediction of a town was based on a geographical theory called “island biogeography”: basically, that a species on a large island is much less likely to go extinct following a catastrophic event than a species on a small one.

“The theory was basically that if you’re going to try and survive, you’re going to a region with a low extinction rate: a large town,” Gillespie says. “We hypothesized he wouldn’t be in a small town where people could report on him.”

“It’s not my thing to do this type of [terrorism] stuff,” he says. “But the same theories we use to study endangered birds can be used to do this.”

In the end, they zeroed in on a Pakistani border town called Parachinar which has, among other things, access to medical care. Then they predicted the exact building he would be in by making assumptions as to the characteristics of the building itself, such as high enough ceilings to accommodate bin Laden’s 6’4” frame, a fence, privacy, and electricity.

The undergraduates did such a nice job on the project, Gillespie says, that he wrote the results up as a paper and submitted it to a small journal, MIT International Review. The next day, he was shocked to find his inbox full of requests for interviews from everyone from USA Today to Sean Hannity. (He declined the latter.)

The paper’s precise predictions were treated with some skepticism by other researchers, who said the authors were overconfident in predicting the terrorist’s hidey hole down to specific buildings. Gillespie says that one of its weaknesses was a lack of hard data on bin Laden’s location, last known in 2001. As to intelligence agencies’ taking interest in his work, “I didn’t hear from them, didn’t expect to. But they obviously did a pretty good job,” he says.

Gillespie says he was surprised to hear bin Laden ended up being only 268 km away from his last known location, but not surprised that he was in a town. “Caves are cold, and you can’t see people walking up to them,” he says.

Still, the late Al Qaeda leader made a bad choice of real estate, in Gillespie’s opinion. “An inconspicuous house would have suited him better.”

Finding bin Laden’s deputies—the terrorist mastermind is said to be only one of 40 “high-value” targets the Pentagon seeks—is not on Gillespie’s to-do list. “Right now, I’m working on the dry forests of Hawaii where 45% of the trees are on the endangered species list,” says Gillespie. “I’m far more interested in getting trees off the endangered species list.”

How DNA may have confirmed bin Laden's death - May 02, 2011

http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbe ... _lade.html

The US government has said that DNA samples from family members of Osama bin Laden were used to positively identify his body with "99.9 percent" certainty. How would this work, and how can the government be so certain?

Modern forensic techniques analyze short tandem repeats — pieces of DNA that are copied different numbers of times in different individuals on the chromosomes that contain an individual’s genetic code. Christie Wilcox blogs about how polymerase chain reaction and genetic sequencing are used to count the number of tandem repeats in a genome. It’s then easy to compare the tandem repeat profile between two individuals to find out whether their DNA profiles match.

Chad Nusbaum of the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard in Cambridge, Mass., estimates that this process would take five or six hours, or even faster in a lab using proprietary technology dedicated to forensic identification. This would have given military analysts time to perform a DNA analysis after the U.S. raid on Monday morning in Pakistan, and deliver results to President Obama by the time of his announcement on Sunday night in Washington, DC.

The equipment necessary for such a DNA analysis could have been located on a ship or at a base near the site of the raid, for instance, at Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan.

But how can the government be so certain that the man it has killed is bin Laden?

The strongest possible match would be made by comparing a sample taken from the putative bin Laden body to previously collected samples of his own DNA.

“My guess is maybe they had samples of bin Laden’s that could have been around for a while,” says Robert Shaler, who directed the DNA identification efforts for victims of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center in New York City. Shaler points out that his team was provided with DNA profiles of some of the hijackers involved in the 9/11 attacks to identify their remains in the World Trade Center rubble, and that a sample of bin Laden’s own DNA could have been collected by military or intelligence agents from places that bin Laden had lived or visited.

Samples also could have been collected from any of bin Laden’s living siblings or children, either with or without their knowledge, by obtaining discarded material bearing their DNA, such as beverage cups or dental floss, says David Kaye, a lawyer at Pennsylvania State University.

Bin Laden reportedly has no full siblings, as he was the only child born to his mother and father. However, his mother remarried after she and bin Laden's father divorced, so bin Laden reportedly has three half-brothers and one half-sister born to her, as well as dozens of half-brothers and half-sisters also born to his father. He also is said to have fathered as many as 26 children.

“Bin Laden’s relatives might have cooperated, or even if they didn’t, agencies might have obtained DNA samples surreptitiously — it’s a well known practice in law enforcement now,” says Kaye, who last year published a book, The Double Helix and the Law of Evidence, on genetic forensic evidence in the criminal justice system.

For instance, DNA collected from a discarded slice of pizza was used to identify the man charged last year with the so-called “Grim Sleeper” murders in California. DNA taken from the alleged killer's son was also used in that case.

The strength of a match made between bin Laden’s putative DNA and that of his relatives would depend on how many related DNA samples are available for comparison, and how closely they are related to bin Laden, says Allison Williams Dobson, a lawyer and molecular biologist who works with the Center for Genomics and Society at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.

“The more siblings and children you have samples from, the easier and more certain it would be,” Williams Dobson says.

It is likely that sequencing of DNA from mitochondria — organelles in the cell that are passed down from mother to child — could have been used to confirm that the man killed in Afghanistan was a sibling to bin Laden's half-sisters and brothers, or was the son of bin Laden's mother, who is still living. Since mitochondria are passed down from mother to child, they can establish with near certainty that two individuals are siblings, says Mary-Claire King of the University of Washington, who pioneered the use of mitochondrial DNA to identify victims of mass killings and homicides in the 1990s.

"Mitochondrial DNA sequencing would be the most certain way, by far, of identifying two people as full siblings,” King said.

Short tandem repeat analysis could also be conducted on the y-chromosome, which is passed down from father to son. Such an analysis could be used to link the putative bin Laden to any of his known half-brothers or sons, further strengthening the evidence that it was indeed he who was killed in the Navy raid in Pakistan.

If it is true that bin Laden was the only son born to his mother and father, a combination of y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA markers could yield a strong match to bin Laden himself, because none of his half-brothers would have inherited the same combination of y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA markers that he has.

Short tandem repeat analysis could also have been conducted on nuclear chromosomal DNA from many bin Laden siblings and children, further cementing the case that the killed man is Osama bin Laden himself.

“If they have the right samples, the identification is virtually certain,” Shaler says.

In addition, news reports have also mentioned other identification techniques, such as facial analysis, that would complement the DNA analysis.

Whatever DNA evidence does exist, Williams Dobson points out, the U.S. government must feel very confident about it.

“They must be quite sure it is him, because if they are wrong, we will have a video from him circulating pretty soon, showing that he is actually alive,” she says.

[Rahul M]

•India Can do a US: Naik

Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said on Monday it has the capability to take out the perpetrators of the 26/11 terror strike in the manner the US had eliminated al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden, but did not elaborate. The Indian Air Force chief said: "We have the capability" But he refused to elaborate, saying: "No, I would not like to..."

This is exactly the kind of comment the Paks need to get their morale up again. You can bet that they will repeat it a 100 times in the next few days.

by what logic ?

[Prasad]

Pak For.Sec - "In Joint op who did what is not important. It is a joint achievement for US, Pak and Afghanistan onlee. Must focus ahead". Man these guys are shameless liars

[Lalmohan]

it would be logical now for unkil to 'withdraw' from afganistan, in time for the election campaign
if unkil does it too fast, would be interesting to see who fills the vaccum in afghania...
pak alone or pak + a/b/c
the haath of dragon is never far away from afghania these days...

[Aditya_V]

quote="Pranav"]•India Can do a US: Naik

Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said on Monday it has the capability to take out the perpetrators of the 26/11 terror strike in the manner the US had eliminated al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden, but did not elaborate. The Indian Air Force chief said: "We have the capability" But he refused to elaborate, saying: "No, I would not like to..." /quote]

This is exactly the kind of comment the Paks need to get their morale up again. You can bet that they will repeat it a 100 times in the next few days.

by what logic ?

Because Pakis know based on Past experience unlike the US we have to consider

1) Lack of Overwhemling Miltary Advantage for India

2) Our leaders have to consider the very real threat of an esclation leading to a Nuclear conflict

3) We do not have International support, any action on our Part and the very forces hailing the Osama operation will come down on us like a ton of bricks.

4) There is very little will Political/Media/Business Elite in India to see Pakis Punished, they would rather do Pappi Jhappi with them as long none of the Elite's relatives get killed - thats why 26/11 is remebered but Chitti Singh pura, 7/11 train bombings, multitude of terror attacks against India are forgiven.

Given the above Pakis like to create face off like Operation Parakram and claim victory.

[Neela]

Just a gentle reminder for all the folks here.

Copied all the tweets from from genius-non-pareil.
It takes about 10 hours for this dumb nut job to realise this, even after admissions from Pakis that they were not involved.


Sorted by timeline.

First step:Deny/Skeptical. Throw in some mumbo-jumbo i.e. Us-Pak equation

BDUTT barkha dutt
So if the americans really took out osama without pakistan having any idea (am skeptical) what does it do to us-pak equation?

Finds it hard to believe news reports. Her brain cannot handle the math. Says does not add up

BDUTT barkha dutt
@mosharrafzaidi from abbotabad on tv with me just now says pakistans distancing itself from osama operation doesn't add up.

Brain freeze aka BSOD. Saying the same thing again and again. Just like the blue screen of death

BDUTT barkha dutt
@javeednusrat on show : almost certain that base of Operation osama was within Pakistan, not from Afghanistan. Deal with Americans likely
21 hours ago

System restarts. "Resume Normal startup?"

BDUTT barkha dutt
Isi chief quoted as saying Pakistan forces were "backing" US forces. So why is the Pakistan government diffident? many pieces dont fit

YAY! She chooses Debug mode! Clap! Clap!

BDUTT barkha dutt
Does operation osama prove that pakistan was sheltering the worlds most wanted man? What did pakistan know about the operation?
18 hours ago

Corrupt OS is the problem! HAH!! finally she gets there!

BDUTT barkha dutt
@ninjapt yep. america has to realise that this dualism is not sustainable
14 hours ago

A full 24 hours for the recovery. Bravo Barkha. You did it!
[ A full 12 hours after the rest of the world knew...but thats okay...par for your brain ]

[UBanerjee]

BTW, why should IMs be angry about taking out high value terrorist targets? And if they are, we have far bigger problems that can't be solved by covering our eyes.

Who says Osama is a terrorist, ask Muslim religious leaders

From incredulity to hostility towards the US -- reactions of Indian Muslim organisations changed rapidly as it became clear that the news of Osama bin Laden's death in a CIA operation in Abbottabad in Pakistan was not American propaganda.

Muslim religious leaders, cutting across sectarian divisions, questioned the "America-propounded" description of the al-Qaida leader as a terrorist, asking what judicial procedures had been followed to pronounce him as one. There was, however, obvious unease at the fact that he had been found to be living in Pakistan and had been killed in an US operation on Pakistani soil.

Syed Ahmed Bukhari, Imam of Jama Masjid, objected to Osama being called a terrorist, "When did any court of law in the world convict Bin Laden of terrorist activities? It is only America's assertion and that of Nato that he was one. Why should we believe them. As for the government of India's reactions, I would want to know their views on what is happening in Palestine even now when thousands of Muslims are being killed by Israel with US help. The killing (of Osama) in a continuation of US interference in Libya, Iraq and Palestine."

Maulana Arshad Madani, president of one faction of the Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind, also disagreed that Osama was a terrorist. "I do not believe he indulged in terrorism. The question to be asked is why did US come into Afghanistan in the first place? Who created Osama? Americans did to exterminate the Russians. Now that their need has been fulfilled, they term Osama, who was at one point their best friend, a terrorist. It is symptomatic of the American way of functioning of their constant use and throw policy with countries and people."

The Indian Muslim establishment initially reacted with incredulity to the news of Osama's death, citing US operations in Tora Bora as a precedent where claims of his killing had later been proved false. It took statements from home minister P Chidambaram and Pakistani MP Sherry Rehman to convince them of the veracity of these reports, after which prominent Muslim leaders said Osama was a one-time American ally with whom relations had soured because he had lost his utility which was to tackle the Russians in Afghanistan.

There was, however, some resentment about the fact that he was in Pakistan. Imam Bukhari said it proved the contention that ISI gave shelter to terrorists. "I am not saying Osama was a terrorist but the fact that outfits like JeM and LeT have bank accounts in the US show that US and ISI jointly sponsor the acts of terrorism in India."

Cutting across the Muslim sectarian divide, the reactions remained similar. Asghar Ali Imam Mehdi Salafi, general secretary of the Markaze Jamiat Ahle Hadees Hind – one of the oldest Muslim organisations in the country and believed to have Wahabi roots -- said, "Osama was a puppet of a superpower, in fact the kind of power he wielded and the widespread consequences of his alleged acts could not have been possible if he did not have powerful backers. Now that he has outlived their necessity, they took him out. This is a conspiracy of the enemies of Asia and of Islam to paint Muslims in a bad light."

The overwhelming consensus seemed to be that the US would do well to steer clear of internal matters of sovereign states in which it has no business. "It is only America's contention that Osama was a terrorist. There is no reason for us to take their words at face value. As for his having been killed inside Pakistan by American forces, that is something Pakistan should get worried about," said Jamaat Islam-i-Hind president Jalaluddin Umri.

Also I will repost two pictures:

While that is not surprising, what does that mean for us? The issue has to be forced- because the current trend is in the wrong direction. The policy of drifting along with Digvijay serving as our homegrown Milliband, is just paralysis; and the radical elements only incubate. It is acts like these that forge loyalties in the first place and create a sense of purpose as a nation.

You can't ever appease your way out of this situation, so what is to be done? "Wait till $3 trillion onlee" "Wait till $6 trillion onlee" "Wait till every indian has a personal hawaii jahaj onlee" This especially doesn't work because the IMs generally remain more poor and backwards than the rest of the nation- and this will only be exacerbated by rapid growth.

Or perhaps we just give up hope for self-respect, and become pure mercantilists. Who cares where loyalties lie? But we know how well that worked out in the past...!

[VikramS]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... ory_2.html

Details about the raid. The lead party was in two Black Hawks. One of them hit the wall and came down on the ground outside the perimeter. So the insertion was botched. A Chinook was sent in for emergency support.

They did not find OBL in the first 30 minutes as they went from room to room. There was a fire-fight with the two couriers.

[PrasadZ]

Many outside America want an end to the policies that may produce more bin Ladens, Geo TV's Hamid Mir writes in Economic Times

I wrote a polite reply that I hope gets published ..

Bin Laden fulfilled his promise. He never surrendered.

As Adam Lankford at FP says

this is simply propaganda. Someone who would kill himself to escape punishment and avoid being brought to justice is neither courageous nor heroic since fear of future is the primary cause of suicide

Another misstatement

Pakistani security forces intercepted a phone call made between Taxila and Abbottabad

Not according to the WaPo - they say

But in the middle of last year, Ahmed had a telephone conversation with someone being monitored by U.S. intelligence

There is still more

Bin Laden wanted to fight but Abu Hamza Al Jazeeri convinced him to try to escape

Bin Laden always exploited flaws in American policies. His real strength was hatred against America, not Islam

that is too boring to correct.

I guess your attitude is summed up by this silliness

Both bin Laden and the Americans violated Pakistan's sovereignty

. Really?! The Pak army shielding a wanted man is a violation of Pakistan's sovereignty?! I couldnt agree more.

[UBanerjee]

Because Pakis know based on Past experience unlike the US we have to consider

1) Lack of Overwhemling Miltary Advantage for India

2) Our leaders have to consider the very real threat of an esclation leading to a Nuclear conflict

These are real reasons. However, it doesn't have to be a military operation. That is the whole point of these asymmetric ops.

3) We do not have International support, any action on our Part and the very forces hailing the Osama operation will come down on us like a ton of bricks.

4) There is very little will Political/Media/Business Elite in India to see Pakis Punished, they would rather do Pappi Jhappi with them as long none of the Elite's relatives get killed - thats why 26/11 is remebered but Chitti Singh pura, 7/11 train bombings, multitude of terror attacks against India are forgiven.

These are just excuses.

[abhischekcc]

Man, this thread is moving faster than the Kirkit World Cup thread

[abhischekcc]

Columbia Journalism is the main indoctrination center / kickback center for journos. If someone has been there means, they were either compromised earlier or became compromised during.