India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby abhishek_sharma » 04 May 2011 13:34


NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby NRao » 04 May 2011 15:47

vardhank wrote:Wise words from Shapiro. They're getting plenty of other sales, and will continue to do so. Especially given the post-Geronimo mood in Washington, hopefully the relationship strengthens, and the US feeds a growing realisation that not getting a sale from us is still better than gifting F-16s to Pak.


There is economic, politics and THEN there is strategic.

EVEN if there is very little of the estimated $50 Billion that goes the US way, the strategic value will always remain till some ground reality changes. Conversely, the strategic value/relationship could decline but the economic one one remain very high (as in the case of Sino-US and also Indo-Sino - strategically India and China at beating each other up, but in economics they are, relatively, the best).

Strategic does not have to mean that the two entities are politically or economically aligned.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby NRao » 04 May 2011 15:50

The MMRCA decision, IMVVHO, is a technical and a political based decision. Not a strategic nor one based on economics.

Like I said earlier, the decision to leave it purely at technical is a political decision.

Kailash
BRFite
Posts: 1062
Joined: 07 Dec 2008 02:32

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Kailash » 04 May 2011 15:58

Per this link, UK might be operating Rafales from their AC than the JSF !!

Ironic and there is no talk about the navalized typhoon anywhere..

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 04 May 2011 16:08

naval rafale will likely be half the cost of JSF and still suffice for beating up folks like libya or iran.

Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Murugan » 04 May 2011 16:16

Second big snub for America

3 May 2011, 1901 hrs IST, AGENCIES

It’s the second major snub for the US from India which has decided to reject two major defence agreements, CISMOA and LSA, which would have allowed US access to Indian defence communication as well as access to Indian ports and airports. US President Barack Obama had pushed for this proposal during his November visit to India. But Govt sources say that the Union Defence Ministry and the armed forces have decided against the agreements.

The absence of CISMOA restricts US from transferring certain high-tech equipment to India. US wants to enhance the ‘interoperability’ of the Indian and American forces, as also ensure secrecy of its C4ISR (command, control, communications, computer, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) systems, through CISMOA. Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) envisages Indian and American militaries providing logistic support, refuelling and berthing facilities for each other's warships and aircraft on barter or an equal-value exchange basis.


http://www.timesnow.tv/Second-big-snub- ... 372209.cms

vardhank
BRFite
Posts: 194
Joined: 17 Feb 2007 15:16
Location: Mumbai

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby vardhank » 04 May 2011 16:40

^^^
I don't think it should be seen as such. In a way, the USA is learning to accept the fact that India cannot be seen as an ally in the Cold War sense, i.e. a vassal. The nuclear agreement, for example, quietly bypassed the NPT and CTBT problems. The US tried again with CISMOA and the LSA - and lost. And I believe, soon enough, it will come up with a new, only-for-India agreement that basically means pretty much the same benefits, but without the restrictions we dislike. In the end, the USA's nothing if not pragmatic, and if that means bypassing their own laws, they'll do so.
Possible alternate scenario: we won't see this happening right away, but when the US needs to use our bases in some situation, an agreement will be thrashed out, and nuts to the laws.
Last edited by vardhank on 04 May 2011 17:35, edited 1 time in total.

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 04 May 2011 17:35

Singha wrote:the aftermath of geronimo makes it politically tough for POTUS to give huge freebie packages to TSP, unless some major co-operation like starting a push into waziristan by PA, handing over other A-list fugitives is seen as coming from rawalpindi.
the inevitable price of such major co-op will be internal attacks on the PA and west punjab by the pakiban.


nothing will stop POTUS to Hope Lotus will bloom in Paki land...Didn't you see UK PM asking countries to be sober on puppy paki...and USA will ask more questions, may be distrust a little bit more...I always wonder as if UK feels inclined towards Paki because its one who caused it...

I dont think we still understand the relation of west to Pakistan...Paki's are bad habit, junkie friend whom you can take anywhere, all they need is a place to stay and will share cigarettes...but are good time to be with, kick around, lecture rather than speaking to empty wall...and so on...many benefits...

Nothing will change, did they ask about whereabouts of other fugitives already in Pakistan...Dawood is in America's top ten most wanted fugitives with AQ no. 2....
There is no point thinking about what west might do...it's better to keep our collar straight up and keep walking in our direction. I am wishing India to use its forces and MMS to grow balls..
Last edited by manum on 04 May 2011 19:03, edited 1 time in total.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Lalmohan » 04 May 2011 18:45

the only reason that current UK leaders 'lean towards' pakistan is due to the large pakistani community in key electoral seats in northern england and their influence on the westminster mp distribution - plus the fact that 80%+ of terror threats to the UK now originate in pakistan and/or with pakistani origin immigrants

in all the OBL tamasha, not much space has been given to 5 UK nationals of 'asian descent' who have been arrested photographing the sellafield nuclear plant in the past few days and booked under anti-terror laws

now they were not the west london sikh bird watching society members who got lost, or coventry gujerati nature ramblers association...

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shiv » 04 May 2011 18:49

Lalmohan wrote:the only reason that current UK leaders 'lean towards' pakistan is due to the large pakistani community in key electoral seats in northern england and their influence on the westminster mp distribution - plus the fact that 80%+ of terror threats to the UK now originate in pakistan and/or with pakistani origin immigrants


OT for this thread - but this is exactly the vote bank argument allegedly used in India to go soft on Pakistan.

Funny innit? The policy of blackmail and negotiating with a gun to one's head works.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2743
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby JTull » 04 May 2011 19:47

Lalmohan wrote:in all the OBL tamasha, not much space has been given to 5 UK nationals of 'asian descent' who have been arrested photographing the sellafield nuclear plant in the past few days and booked under anti-terror laws

now they were not the west london sikh bird watching society members who got lost, or coventry gujerati nature ramblers association...


Widely reported here as being Bangladeshi and all in their 20s.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 04 May 2011 21:05

by any chance have they ever visited KSA or Pak for say 3 months of religious tourism ? ;)

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9479
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 04 May 2011 22:10

Rafale News has released info on all Katrinas delivered to date to the French Air Force/Navy. An interesting figure is 38 twin-seater Rafale ‘B’ aircraft have been delivered vs only 30 single-seater Rafale ‘C’ aircraft. Guess the French too love the twin cockpit system! Please click on link below…

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/05/100thrafale-delivery.html

If Katrina is chosen and if we exercise (which is a near certainty) the option of 74 additional aircraft, that will bring the total to ~ 200…which will make the IAF the largest Rafale operator. If the 'M' variant wins the naval contest, the number is only going to get higher. Only a total of 180 are being planned for delivery to the French Air Force/Navy.

Some new pics of Katrina…

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/05/rafale-pictures-of-day.html

This one is truly beautiful…Katrina dispensing her flares. The flash from the flares gives the impression of a light desert camo (most prominent below the front left canard), but the grey below is a dead giveaway! Someone please identify those missiles? Are those MICAs? I know Katrina well...but I am zero on her accessories :)

Image

tejas
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 04:47

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby tejas » 04 May 2011 22:38

^^^ Looks like Micas of the radar guided variety.

kmc_chacko
BRFite
Posts: 326
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 10:10
Location: Shivamogga, Karnataka

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby kmc_chacko » 04 May 2011 22:51

will GoI show interest to ask France to buyback 52 old Mirages and replace it with 7sq single seater & 7 twine seater Rafaels total 252 fighters i.e., 14 sq

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 04 May 2011 23:41

^^I guess that can be worked out only if Rafale makes it as the final option, and a new RFP is required for the buy back deal. I doubt Fr will do anything about it.. rather chew 2 or 3 ransom billions.. all in the name of katrina fascinations! /sarcasm onlee.

There are many countries who are trying to dispose of their old mirages.. no takes yet. /cost!

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 04 May 2011 23:58

SaiK wrote:^^I guess that can be worked out only if Rafale makes it as the final option, and a new RFP is required for the buy back deal. I doubt Fr will do anything about it.. rather chew 2 or 3 ransom billions.. all in the name of katrina fascinations! /sarcasm onlee.

There are many countries who are trying to dispose of their old mirages.. no takes yet. /cost!


I guess its better to bargain more on Mirage upgrade more rather than replacing them with Rafale...It'll be on safer footing.

narayana
BRFite
Posts: 366
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 12:01

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby narayana » 05 May 2011 00:05

Rakesh wrote:If Katrina is chosen and if we exercise (which is a near certainty) the option of 74 additional aircraft, that will bring the total to ~ 200



Any Chances of splitting the order between 2 contenders if the numbers go beyond 200?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54684
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ramana » 05 May 2011 00:09

You will lose the advantage of increasing the qty. (lower unit costs) by splitting the order and not to mention the increase in logistics.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2011 00:49

plus you have double cost for contractual agreements, dual production line setup, dual tots, etc.. it is a high risk silly decision if they do so.

sarkozy's would not be shaken by calling her katrina, and would go about saying he has with him what he needs and done that and this.. they would not lose a penny on this deal rather lose mmrca. honestly, imho, france does not care if we have Rafale for IAF. All it matters for them is are we paying what they ask.

otoh, imo, germany and eads nations would under the name of profit shares, and equity partnership, would bring down the cost way so much it is hard for katrina to dance anymore. just business speak.

meanwhile, if IAF says katrinia it shall be, then our babooze will have tough time with sarkozy's men and women to get a good deal on this puppy.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9479
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 05 May 2011 01:21

tejas wrote:Looks like Micas of the radar guided variety.


You are correct Saar. Here is a sideshot of the IR (pointed nose) and EM (stubby nose) versions of the MICA missile.

Image

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2011 02:09

wow! amazing pic, and depicting superb surface/finish quality of these weapons.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby NRao » 05 May 2011 04:22

Is it not amusing that the IAF is the largest operator of Su-27/30 series, and now could become the largest for the Rafales.

The French just may have to accept a name change here.

Not to mention the PAK-FA derivative - FGFA too.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2011 04:41

so, technically it may be possible to have additional t/r panels on three angles, one below the nose and two adjacent leading to canards. that should be considered as increased space for the aesa panels. Now, it is left the designers about what else is out there that this can't be done.

Gurneesh
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 14 Feb 2010 21:21
Location: Troposphere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gurneesh » 05 May 2011 04:42

OT but as per wiki: India has ordered 272 MKI. Russia already has 322 Su27 plus 48 Su35 to be delivered. China has 203 Russian built Su27/30 plus around 100 J11.

tejas
BRFite
Posts: 768
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 04:47

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby tejas » 05 May 2011 04:46

No need for the Saar title, boss. BTW welcome back I was used to seeing your daily postings more than ten years back!

PS, minor nitpick, the ER version has the sharp nose and the IR version the stubby one. I know looks don't count for anything but I have been in love with the Rafale since the first time I saw it. The Tiffy is one of the ugliest beats I have ever seen.

Raja Bose
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19478
Joined: 18 Oct 2005 01:38

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Raja Bose » 05 May 2011 05:22

Rakesh wrote:
tejas wrote:Looks like Micas of the radar guided variety.


You are correct Saar. Here is a sideshot of the IR (pointed nose) and EM (stubby nose) versions of the MICA missile.



I think you got it the other way round - shouldn't IR be the stubby nose one with the window?

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby NRao » 05 May 2011 06:22

((he is trying to confuse the confused Pakis.))

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9479
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 05 May 2011 07:51

tejas wrote:No need for the Saar title, boss. BTW welcome back I was used to seeing your daily postings more than ten years back!

I am SDRE...I am like this onlee. I am learning, so everyone is my Saar.

tejas wrote:I know looks don't count for anything but I have been in love with the Rafale since the first time I saw it.

Why do you think she has the name Katrina? :mrgreen:

tejas wrote:The Tiffy is one of the ugliest beats I have ever seen.

Another reason why I gave her the name Shatru...but some BRFites did not like the name.

tejas wrote:PS, minor nitpick, the ER version has the sharp nose and the IR version the stubby one.

I think you got it the other way round - shouldn't IR be the stubby nose one with the window?

NRao wrote:((he is trying to confuse the confused Pakis.))

OH GREAT!!! Now the Pakis know as well. Thanks a lot!!! :evil:

But jokes aside, I just wanted to see if you guys were awake :)

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9479
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 05 May 2011 08:11

narayana wrote:Any Chances of splitting the order between 2 contenders if the numbers go beyond 200?

In addition to what Ramana and SaiK have said, 200 aircraft (just for the air force alone) will give us tremendous leverage in any negotiation with the French. It would be foolish on our part to not see the opportunity here. We have to look beyond transfer of technology. It is only when you aim for the sky, you hit the trees...or however that saying goes. The French need to be squeezed for more. It is time for us to do a reverse dhoti squeeze.

You know India has arrived, when we have the financial resources to purchase an aircraft in greater quantity than the host country who developed the aircraft or has in its own air arm. This is an exciting moment to be in India...MMRCA notwithstanding.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2011 08:38

Per janes, feb 2011, the rbe2-aesa went into validations for tranche-4 (2013 delivery), gone on operations trials for the past couple of months by now. Any latest updates/pics on these?

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2011 08:42

found one link with pic:
Image

any more close ups? I see about 886 t/rs
Last edited by SaiK on 05 May 2011 08:49, edited 1 time in total.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9479
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 05 May 2011 08:44


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9479
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 05 May 2011 08:48

SaiK wrote:any more close ups?

How about this? :mrgreen:

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/1/2d8c6f40-377b-41bd-a179-8d63cf1c9dbc.Full.jpg

Fellow Rakshaks: If you have a slow internet connection....don't bother or at least open in another window.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2011 08:54

awesome!

kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby kmkraoind » 05 May 2011 09:15

If Rafale is chosen it it possible India to sign to buy 100-150 of French 2000-C/D/N variants (French old stock) at 15-20 mil a pop and choice of upgrading any much and any where at its will. If so it will definitely add numbers till 2025 till AMCA and FGFA are realized to their full potential.

andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1599
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby andy B » 05 May 2011 09:24

Rakesh wrote:
SaiK wrote:any more close ups?

How about this? :mrgreen:

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/1/2d8c6f40-377b-41bd-a179-8d63cf1c9dbc.Full.jpg

Fellow Rakshaks: If you have a slow internet connection....don't bother or at least open in another window.


Err is it just my dirty kafir mind or does Katrina look like she is coming forth to gimme a smack with those lips....? :mrgreen:

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5845
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Dileep » 05 May 2011 10:23

Well, your dirty kafir mind can also think about Katrina's CockPit.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 05 May 2011 10:30

can anyone who is not math challenged count the number of modules?

Samay
BRFite
Posts: 1143
Joined: 30 Mar 2009 02:35
Location: India

Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Samay » 05 May 2011 10:40

Rakesh wrote:
SaiK wrote:any more close ups?

How about this? :mrgreen:

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/1/2d8c6f40-377b-41bd-a179-8d63cf1c9dbc.Full.jpg

Fellow Rakshaks: If you have a slow internet connection....don't bother or at least open in another window.

:eek: if I had to select, I would have fallen for katrina without second thoughts.
Katrina is when technology meets french art :D


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 121 guests