Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 May 2011 21:11

Don't know if the Paki "strike aircraft" F-16s would have even started when the Paki pilots scrambled on a alert being sounded in Sargodha and other PAF bases...

The PAF reaction to the raid and their experience with their machines ( GPS jammed/non-functioning, Amir-khan voice asking them to stand down etc)will be a interesting story which will trickle out in the years to come.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 May 2011 21:15

Considering the uncle's philosophy of using a hammer to swat a fly, it would have had every possible ELINT and SIGINT asset in the air and dozens of F-16/15 flying CAPs+on stand-by to cater to any emergency...remember, Ombaba advising his team to ensure they are prepared to fight their way out? No way on God's earth could have PAF or anyone else done anything. The biggest threat was from RPG weilding abdul on ground....there is no ECM/ECCM against him and his faithful RPG-7!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 May 2011 21:18

the helicopter crash near tarbela is quite telling...maybe all its avionics stopped functioning suddenly and artificial horizon meter flipper over 180' and altimeter = real_reading + 1000ft

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 May 2011 21:50

^^^ or the heli was bounced by unkil fighters? and did brown shalwar moment

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 May 2011 22:04

Considering the uncle's philosophy of using a hammer to swat a fly, it would have had every possible ELINT and SIGINT asset in the air and dozens of F-16/15 flying CAPs+on stand-by to cater to any emergency

Wouldn't Indian AD also picked up so much movement and top guys here have guessed that something big was going on?

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 05 May 2011 05:28

nice analysis by najam sethi ...

http://pakistan66.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... 2-may.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 May 2011 06:12

Considering the uncle's philosophy of using a hammer to swat a fly,

Wish they had got the real fly. PA. We could have interviewed OBL and been happy.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 May 2011 07:17

Here you go. Much more clear pic of stealth helo that Seals used.

clicky for real pics on Reuters which are allegdly sold by Porki army officer to reporter.

http://www.reuters.com/subjects/bin-laden-compound

EDIT - looking at these pics, its not hard to imagine why they could not pick up American helos.

With radars knocked out, stealth helos, semi-terminator soldiers. Damn... porkies were outgunned

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 May 2011 07:19

And so it should be.

Pretty incompetent of the armed force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to permit a third country to penetrate deep inside its territory and mount a 40 minute assault in a garrison town on a target that is just some 800 yards the premier military academy and then permit the exit of the attacking force totally un-accosted:

Pakistan turns on the military who brought them global shame

Pakistani Army, Shaken by Raid, Faces New Scrutiny

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 May 2011 07:27

-delete-

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 May 2011 08:16

India, meanwhile, has been in no doubt for years that it should focus on economic growth. For better or for worse, it just displayed its political independence by deciding to short-list two European combat aircraft for a contract worth $11 billion, while rejecting American bids.

In many ways, South Asia is moving on. It is trying to build its economic inter-dependency a way that the United States once encouraged. As the history of Europe showed, only when France and Germany began weaving their economies together after World War Two did they put behind them years of conflict. And the governments of South Asia are no longer waiting to solve their political disputes before they try to forge better economic cooperation and trade.

The United States, meanwhile, is trapped in a post 9/11 war in Afghanistan, trying to fight an old battle with al Qaeda, while other countries supposedly under its tutelage are setting their own course.

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/ ... the-rules/

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 May 2011 08:22

Among all this gloom, economic doom and subsistence on alms, Pakistan is scouting for French arms.

French arms sales to Pakistan as well as economic issues are expected to dominate the discussions Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani will have during his stay here. Mr. Gilani is scheduled to sign a series of MoUs both for arms purchases and for non-military contracts in areas such as hydel power. He is also hoping for French support to obtain an exemption from customs duties on textile exports to Europe.

In the military field, the two countries have been discussing arms contracts to the tune of 450 million euros and informed sources indicate that an agreement has been reached on the financial modalities of the deal. The money is to be loaned at 4.5 per cent interest for a period of eight years by several French banks with state guarantees through COFACE, a public sector insurer for foreign trade. However, several points still remain to be clarified, especially the technology add-ons, which could be included in the 450 million euro contract.

French companies Thales, Sagem and Eurocopter are in the running for contracts. The Pakistani wish list includes night vision glasses, Damoclès cockpits with AASM kits for Mirage III fighter aircraft, electronic components and spare parts for Fennec helicopters. The integration of the systems will be done by electronics giant Sagem, it is learnt. Another agreement in the works is for an outright purchase of 10 Fennec AS 550 C3 helicopters valued at $60 million apiece.

Christophe Jaffrelot, a specialist on India-Pakistan relations, said: “French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe's initial remarks could be interpreted as a hint to Pakistan not to expect too much from this visit. The visit is being kept discreet and what Mr. Gilani will be doing for four whole days remains a mystery.” Mr. Jaffrelot teaches at the prestigious Centre for Studies in International Relations (CERI).

Is France keeping the visit low-key because of sensitivities with India especially now with the short-listing of Rafale and Eurocopter in the reckoning for helicopter deal ? Keeping low-key is just not enough.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 May 2011 09:02

^^ I would assume that these deals would mysteriously get scuttled once India puts its word in... IIRC, similar thing was done with the Marlin sub issue for Poaks ( too costly + Indian pressure?)

Santosh Pandey · Post by **Santosh Pandey** » 05 May 2011 17:18

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 168389.cms

Joke of the day !! this deserves a place in military humor forum..

manum · Post by **manum** » 05 May 2011 18:35

^^ why its a joke?
Because India dont have balls to do a covert operation...or they are overestimating their own capabilities...

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 May 2011 18:39

becos pak army left its back passage unguarded...

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 05 May 2011 18:43

Santosh Pandey wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 168389.cms

Joke of the day !! this deserves a place in military humor forum..

not sure what is the joke here.. again.. Pakis are doing ..what they do the best.. I would rather ask our armed forces leaders to stop giving lofty and empty bravado without ensuring political will first.. this just make us look like paper tiger.. seriously.. if we really want to do it..we would have done it.. no point repeating.."We can also do it.."

manum · Post by **manum** » 05 May 2011 18:45

its a clear challege to any kind of misadventure as they call it isnt it...If USA tries to do anything...they'll do it anyways...by hook or crook...

As per India is concern why dont we work out something like this in our own ways...why dont we accept the challenge...like israel, let relations go to kiln...

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 05 May 2011 19:12

manum wrote:its a clear challege to any kind of misadventure as they call it isnt it...If USA tries to do anything...they'll do it anyways...by hook or crook...

As per India is concern why dont we work out something like this in our own ways...why dont we accept the challenge...like israel, let relations go to kiln...

...

Vote bank rings the bell...... Spineless UPA with hazar calculations..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 May 2011 19:17

prithvi wrote:I would rather ask our armed forces leaders to stop giving lofty and empty bravado without ensuring political will first

You mean our armed forces should stop exuding confidence because the political leaders don't exude confidence like Paki leaders? What sort of wish is that?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 May 2011 19:45

prithvi wrote:
Santosh Pandey wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 168389.cms

Joke of the day !! this deserves a place in military humor forum..
not sure what is the joke here.. again.. Pakis are doing ..what they do the best.. I would rather ask our armed forces leaders to stop giving lofty and empty bravado without ensuring political will first.. this just make us look like paper tiger.. seriously.. if we really want to do it..we would have done it.. no point repeating.."We can also do it.."

Sirji, how do you propose that the Armed Forces "ensure" Political Will? For "ensuring', the only only way is a coup or at least a threat to do so.

The only other thing that the Armed Forces can do is to make it clear to the general public that the Military Capability (which is the only thing they have "some" control over) is present. Then, hopefully the govt would be pressurised enough to improve the intelligence capability and take some tough decisions.

But I am curious to know your thoughts on how Armed Forces can "ensure" political will.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 05 May 2011 19:57

Prithvi saab probably has a problem with India even being a paper tiger. He'd rather prefer the Military to stfu and talk piss just like MMS. Let's be paper sheeps, because being even a paper tiger will cause the Pakis to bluster, we the good & pissful neighbors don't want that.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 05 May 2011 20:02

Sirji, how do you propose that the Armed Forces "ensure" Political Will? For "ensuring', the only only way is a coup or at least a threat to do so.

The only other thing that the Armed Forces can do is to make it clear to the general public that the Military Capability (which is the only thing they have "some" control over) is present. Then, hopefully the govt would be pressurised enough to improve the intelligence capability and take some tough decisions.

But I am curious to know your thoughts on how Armed Forces can "ensure" political will.

Precisely my point... we have had enough of these kind of comments in the past .. after Mumbai blasts, after 26/11.... so and so forth.. had that being able to move our political leadership? no.. then what is the point of giving these lip services when we all know it is not possible.. we end having the dilemma of left hand not knowing what right hand should do.. we should just keep ourselves happy with dossier exchange and repeated SM Krishna garbage .."Pakistan should do more to nail the terror"... then host a cricket diplomacy... shake hands etc.. we are in total kichdi...and we end up fantasying Indian Special Forces raiding Paki Land.. only in countless threads.. apologies for over the top reaction.. seriously tired of our posture...

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 05 May 2011 20:08

Chandragupta wrote:Prithvi saab probably has a problem with India even being a paper tiger. He'd rather prefer the Military to stfu and talk piss just like MMS. Let's be paper sheeps, because being even a paper tiger will cause the Pakis to bluster, we the good & pissful neighbors don't want that.

I would rather be a shrewd sheep with a pair of **** then a paper tiger...I seriously don't think Pakis give a hoot to what our military leadership says.. without action... I have immense respect for military leadership ..but just does not want them to look like fool .. for the rest of the world and country .. without proper backup from political leadership...

Santosh Pandey · Post by **Santosh Pandey** » 05 May 2011 20:22

after all the humiliation his country n its army gets, a nut in pak govt. suddenly declares tht it'll react to "any similar operation by usa or india".. huh.. makes me remember "miyaan gir gaye phir bhi tangdi unchii"..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 May 2011 20:44

prithvi wrote: Precisely my point... we have had enough of these kind of comments in the past .. after Mumbai blasts, after 26/11.... so and so forth.. had that being able to move our political leadership? no.. then what is the point of giving these lip services when we all know it is not possible.. we end having the dilemma of left hand not knowing what right hand should do.. we should just keep ourselves happy with dossier exchange and repeated SM Krishna garbage .."Pakistan should do more to nail the terror"... then host a cricket diplomacy... shake hands etc.. we are in total kichdi...and we end up fantasying Indian Special Forces raiding Paki Land.. only in countless threads.. apologies for over the top reaction.. seriously tired of our posture...

Chandragupta apropos of another discussion, do you see my point?

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 05 May 2011 23:26

Gaur wrote:
prithvi wrote: not sure what is the joke here.. again.. Pakis are doing ..what they do the best.. I would rather ask our armed forces leaders to stop giving lofty and empty bravado without ensuring political will first.. this just make us look like paper tiger.. seriously.. if we really want to do it..we would have done it.. no point repeating.."We can also do it.."
Sirji, how do you propose that the Armed Forces "ensure" Political Will? For "ensuring', the only only way is a coup or at least a threat to do so.

The only other thing that the Armed Forces can do is to make it clear to the general public that the Military Capability (which is the only thing they have "some" control over) is present. Then, hopefully the govt would be pressurised enough to improve the intelligence capability and take some tough decisions.

But I am curious to know your thoughts on how Armed Forces can "ensure" political will.

+1

Atleast the military puts this line of thought out in the public. If the Army starts talking like MMS tomorrow, how would the Pakis react? The least we can do is to adopt a good cop, bad cop routine to talk diplomacy with Pak and Military plays a big role in the latter.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 06 May 2011 01:17

Why does the media (western/DDM alike) keep saying OBL was near military installation? Is it ignorance or thickness?

He was not near, but located well INSIDE a military installation (Abottabad Cantonment), which is 100% military administered area.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 06 May 2011 11:36

Talking about political will - what would one suppose be the risk taking appetite of people in their 70s or 80s compared to the ones in their 50s? That is precisely the case with people in power here. Remember 71 happened when IG was in mid 50s.

This may be OT and should be taken in lighter vein

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 May 2011 13:39

WTR, the discussion regarding the Indian Specops capability and the Indian non utilisation of the same. It will be worth keeping in mind the TSP attitudes in the late 90s and the comments made by the Ia$$ Amir that the TSP is a gnat constantly buzzing in the Indian Elephants ears.

Perhaps, the TSPA is looking at an Indian response in order to solidify the population. If India responds against the TSP, it will be playing into the hands of the TSPA and its efforts to consolidate the Population and distract them. By not taking the bait, the Indian govt have denied the TSPA that opportunity to the TSPA.

Additionaly, if you look at the monkey trap, the TSPA has put it self in another monkey trap, WRT, the islamists in the country, any retaliation by India against the Islamist's will be used as a get out of jail card by the TSPA. As it will allow it to use that raid to focus the anger against India helping it consolidate the Islamists against India. We saw the example of the same post 26/11 when the various Islamist lashkars pledged their aligence to the TSPA in defending the TSP.

atul.arvind · Post by **atul.arvind** » 06 May 2011 16:36

With all due respect to all senior BRFites who thinks us whining about GoI not taking any actions against TSP is inappropriate and instead we should wait for another mumbai like attack and then set up a committee to look into the culprits ..probably send a
couple of RAW operatives across border..who in turn find out the exact location of the terrorists who have murdered hundreds of people in India and ..prepare a detailed report submit it to IB who in turn pass it to PMO who consults the Security Adviser to PM who suggests a cabinet committee on security who later decides to pass that information to TSP.Later a high level PM meet is organized
spending crores of Indian money where our PM hands the dosier to TSP PM who in turns whins about not a single terrorist is in
Pakistan..goes home take our very detailed meticulously prepared report and put it in Shredder and we Indians wait for another Mumbai like incident to prepare one more report..If that's what some members think then i beg to differ sir..

Wont it fun and satisfying (atleast for me) that we ask those RAW operatives already across the border to do a wet job (assassinate)
the at least 3-4 terrorist already on the report and in the mean time take couple of FOXBAT out of retirement send them over to Islamabad
make a load of noise ...make them think we have conducted a US like operation let them send all F solah after our FOXBAT which obviously they cant catch..have Rambha and probably katrina ready in air with AWACS support..destroy all freebies which uncle sam has bestowed on TSP once thats done...send Jags to do the dirty job of destroying what else is left of TSP..i know it sounds redculous
but what IF

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 May 2011 16:57

^^
There are many what ifs. A good place for them is Mil Scenarios thread.
Also, not one poster here has advocated inaction against TSP. Its the mode of action which is being debated upon.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 06 May 2011 19:11

P Chitkara wrote:Talking about political will - what would one suppose be the risk taking appetite of people in their 70s or 80s compared to the ones in their 50s? That is precisely the case with people in power here. Remember 71 happened when IG was in mid 50s.

This may be OT and should be taken in lighter vein

so lets make Rahul the next PM ..

...
may be a 13 day BJP govt. with Modi sahab as PM .. the best bet for so called cold doctrine...

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 May 2011 21:49

From LiveFist

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 06 May 2011 22:46

Tne pakistan air defence really lack in strealth flying objects detection. The US seal easily jamm there radars and place totally undetected. If the defence situation is really such then the PAK FA is really best option for deep strike.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 07 May 2011 01:47

What kind of radars etc Pakiland have as of now in the west. What are her anti air assets. From what I under stand they have some kind of hand held level and anti aircraft guns and that is all.

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 07 May 2011 08:24

^^
not entirely correct.their crotale 4000 system is being replaced by 10 batteries of spada2000.also they have a dozen or so HQ2 batteries. these are mostly situated on their western front and vital nuclear installations.i will try to post a link of possible location and ranges of current paki air defence system.

Don · Post by **Don** » 07 May 2011 09:49

Sid wrote:Here you go. Much more clear pic of stealth helo that Seals used.

clicky for real pics on Reuters which are allegdly sold by Porki army officer to reporter.

http://www.reuters.com/subjects/bin-laden-compound

EDIT - looking at these pics, its not hard to imagine why they could not pick up American helos.

With radars knocked out, stealth helos, semi-terminator soldiers. Damn... porkies were outgunned

Artist impression of the "Silent Hawk"

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 May 2011 10:50

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/arch ... 05395a.jpg

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/dat ... oncept.jpg

Admin Note: Please do not post large images in threads. It is inconvenient for members with slow internet connections.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 May 2011 11:15

Radars were inactive, not jammed: air chief

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDe ... t=5/7/2011

Selected gems from the above linked article...

Osama bin Laden declared war not only against America but also against Pakistan Army, we lost 3,500 soldiers, we arrested most of his close comrades but Americans never took us into confidence about the May 2 operation and even after the success of their unilateral operation, they tried to humiliate us in their traditional arrogant style but we will not tolerate their arrogance in future.

These sources say: “Let them come again from the west or even from the east and the world will see our real action.”

That action is begging...Dede Baba...aur F-Solah Dede Baba. They have been doing it for 60+ years. They are experts in it.