News - Osama Bin Laden - killed In Pakistan

[ramana]

Lalmohan, Satyameva jayate. Truth will triumph.
What is the view from your vantage?

[ManuT]

Yeah whatever. The MoFo is no Fish Poop and hence not in "one piece" and we are supposed to feel some empathy for some mumbo jumbo of "afterlife" and this and that the particular MoFo might have believed in.

Err. Did that MoFo ever care about "bodies being in one piece" of the thousands killed in bomb blasts he set off (many of them being religious muslims) , not to mention the thousands in the WTC , Bali, London , Madrid and of course the passengers in the planes who were killed in the process of their planes being turned into suicide weapons.

A good state to end up in I think. Fish Poop. Maybe feeding him to the dogs would have been better. Dog Poop might have been better.

Saar, there is a difference between sending the faithfools to hell with the promise V-72s in heaven to kill the unfaithfools, and believing in it for the mis-leader , when the time comes.

I am hoping, that of former#2 &#3 (and now current #1 & #2) at least one would give himself up as a result of this 'encounter of the century'. The other one would prefer to be shot by his own bodyguard to an unmarked grave. This is the best case scenario for them. No grand visions now.

-------------
Someone needs to lead the prayers for Hafiz Seed and Geelani

[prithvi]

Pakistan army orders cut in US military personnel

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110505/ap_ ... _bin_laden

[pgbhat]

I think it is time to remove the "Breaking News" part of the thread title. It should IMHO be "Osama Bin Laden killed in Pakistan by USA".

[Lalmohan]

Lalmohan, Satyameva jayate. Truth will triumph.
What is the view from your vantage?

my simple mind thinks that OBL was kept as an option, whose value was changing and possibly more relevant to other 'investors'. PA might have kept him as a guest speaker guru type to wheel out at important management seminars, but not actually to do anything. apart from the US, KSA didn't want him active either - and they have more clout with the god fearing

increasingly i suspect that the PA didn't know what to do with him - that said i think the americans did this on their own and out played the paquis

all that we think is cunning is often just a comedy of errors

the end game for paquistan as we know it is underway - its a question of when and not if...

[rajithn]

All,

I think we need to cut slack to newcomers or else we will be extinct as dodos. And recall all of us were newbies once. None was born already self-knowing.

And labelling folks Pakis is not helpful.

I think of the train analogy. Some of us are close to the engine while others are closer to the caboose or guard compartment. Lets be thankful they are on the tracks for the non-BRF are not even at the station! While others are at the airport.

Every new incident is an opportunity to get new members and not become a slef limiting group.


Thanks for listening,

ramana

I applaud you, Ramanaji. {I wanted to submit an analogy too and thought the better of it. Reminded me of the people who cry blue murder when it comes to renting out houses to bachelors...without realising they were so themselves sometime.}

It isnt fair to treat others with disdain just because they are new.

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

At least 2, if not all 3 seem to have taken head shots.
I see no head wounds in front.

1) they were running
or
2) they were caught and shot

USN Seals, like all HRTs, train to fight a terrorist shielding behind a hostage, while holding his finger on a trigger/detonation switch. For targets such as these, the best shot is into the mouth, ideally while the terrorist is yelling; because this is the shortest shot to the brain stem (from the frontal aspect), and so it provides the highest probability of a kill that will preclude any twitch or muscle tension from pulling the trigger or hitting the switch.

Now look closely at those photos. There are no exit wounds in the front/face area, which means they were not shot from behind. Look even closer and you can tell the bullet flew in through their mouths (causing watery bleeding out the ears, from the mix of blood and cerebrospinal fluid).

Also, judging by the blood pattern on the floor, they were definitely bleeding out of the backs of their heads.

[wig]

Zawahiri betrayed Osama bin Laden: Saudi paper

DUBAI: Al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden was betrayed by his deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri who led US forces to his hideout as the two were involved in an intense power struggle, a Saudi newspaper has reported.

The two top al-Qaida men had differences and the courier who led US forces to bin Laden was working and had more loyalties for Zawahiri, al Watan newspaper reported quoting Arab sources.

"The Egyptian faction of al-Qaida led by Zawahiri was de facto running the militant group, after bin Laden was taken ill in 2004 and they were trying to take full control," the paper said.

The courier was a Pakistani national and not a Kuwaiti as the US suspected and the man knew he was being followed but disguised the fact.

The paper claimed it was Zawahiri's faction which had persuaded Osama to leave tribal areas close to Afghanistan-Pakistan border to take shelter instead in Abbottabad, where he was finally killed by US Seals on Monday.

The plan to dispose off bin Laden had been hatched by a prominent al-Qaida commander Saif al Adel of Egyptian descent, who returned to Pakistan from Iran, last autumn.

Al Adel had reportedly escaped to Iran escorting Osama's other son and family members after 9/11.

Al Adel is a member of the majlis al shura of al-Qaida and a member of its military committee, and he provided military and intelligence training to members of al-Qaida and Egyptian Islamic Jihad in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Sudan, and to anti-UN Somali tribes.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 169580.cms

[shiv]

[
US :+1
Porkis: +1 (they will make it +1 in a few months)
India: -1 (expect porkis to become belligerent eastwards for all the kameez soiling. They will look east so that we dont see those soiled kameezs too)

This is exactly the kind of thinking shiv ji is talking about, I think.

Correct. And I was cautioned for it. But it is rampant and sometimes assumes epidemic proportions. Have you checked the Pak arms doctrine thread in the other forum?

[shiv]

Whole world takes anti-Pakistan stance but India (atleast Prime Minister) & China do not attack Pakistan openly and try to give it cover.

Absolutely spot on!

The worst and the most hated enemy which Pakistan wants to crush into pulp is the one that is smiling and holding out a hand of friendship - ever ready for "pappi-jhappi". Talk about cognitive dissonance and seething with impotent anger.

[Sahastra]

US and Pakistan were never allies. US and Pakistan relationship, be it the Soviet-era in Afghanistan or post 9/11, is about being a team - a team formed due to mutual convenience and dependencies - convenience for US and dependency for Pakistan.

Don't mistake the whole "war on terror" and "our strongest ally" bullcrap. Internally, US knows what it always knews - it needs Pakistan's services in forms of troops and logistic support and the price, a few billion dollars every year, is a pittance when compared to the cost to US if it were to do those things on its own. A few thousand Pakistan soldiers wasted in the frontier fighting some tribal lordship is hardly a squeak. A couple of American soldiers arriving dead from Afghanistan is a 24-hrs newscast. US needs to offshore its fight - more like the American companies offshore their jobs abroad. The cost savings are tremendous, so compromised quality and an occasional irritant is okay and can be overlooked.

For the ruling Pakistani elite, the core of which are the migrant mohajirs from UP and Bihar who were prosperous and well-educated and crossed over to Karachi in search of a land of pure, it is more important to feed the hatred against India than to show some spine against US. It is an existential problem - the day the hatred goes away, they lose it all. So they will continue to wag their tails despite being snubbed, humiliated or kicked on the rearside, as long as their masters come out of the room and say "Pakistan is an important ally. We are equal-equal only". To understand the Paki elite is to read an open book on how to be cunning, conniving and compromising - in the interest of your own survival and well-being. The descendents of these elites - mostly enjoying the hospitalities of top universities in US, UK and elsewhere on the money that this elites have stolen from the poor masses of Pakistan - have learned the art well and true from their parents. Everything that comes out from their mouth will be an uninterrupted hatred for India, especially Hindus. They have a target audience - the rich but not so educated Punjabis and mostly poor Sindhis. The rest of the masses are taken care of with little help from mushrooming madrassas from Saudi money.

So, in a close room, when Uncle Sam kicks, maligns and humiliates the well-dressed and brass-tacked ISI and Military officials, their sole request is "Do whatever you want to do in here but when we step out of the room, please say that it was a contructive exercise between equal-equal only allies". No other country in the world can be so - to quote TSPians - Beghairat. To the Pakistani elites, the riches and rewards of billions of USD far outweighs any humiliation. The masses can be taken care of with a few high-pitched propoganda articles and statements against "cunning Hindoos".

What is gonna happen moving forward - Nothing. It will be BaU - Business as Usual. US can't afford to lose the services of a cheap armed force, and Pakistan army elites are too fond of their shopping sprees and swiss accounts. Expect a hush-hush BaU in less than a week's time.

[SaiK]

common guys.. every one has the their own ways to show anger and disdain on pakis. some specific people have the capability to do the same with a smile and heavy head shakes.

[Sanku]

The worst and the most hated enemy which Pakistan wants to crush into pulp is the one that is smiling and holding out a hand of friendship - ever ready for "pappi-jhappi". Talk about cognitive dissonance and seething with impotent anger.

Well I dont know about others, but I confess its causing a lot of the former (cognitive dissonance) in me as well.

All chankian reasons are well and good but sometimes I just want us to go in there and sweep the place clean.

[Christopher Sidor]

Zawahiri betrayed Osama bin Laden: Saudi paper

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 169580.cms

My My My heresy at work. Laden's body has not even started to decompose and already conspiracy theories are on the full flow. It will be entertaining and we are going to have a field day laughing our asses off.....

Moderators we need one more thread, this time dedicated to Osama's conspiracy theories.

[rajithn]

[quote="Klaus
Agreed. However, that does not come at the cost of trying to shorten the conventional tried and tested (& hence combat proven) learning curve that everybody goes through here at BR, I am not saying that it is intentional on the part of the newbie but BR is far from being a democracy, it is not the comments section of the electronic edition of MSM newspaper.

So as long as the newbie knows what not to do on the forum, all is well onlee.[/quote]

Thank you, Klaus. I agree that BRF is not a "democracy". It is not the comments section of a newspaper either - if this forum spouted that kind of verbal diarhhea, I am sure a lot of the individuals I follow here wouldnt be here. Neither would I.

A tried and tested learning curve it may be but that shouldnt stop mentoring people with a lower level of awareness/understanding. And giving them the chance at a different learning curve - a less steeper perhaps?

Anyways OT.

There is much more going on now rather than continue on this topic.

[rajanb]

Arnab F***ing the Pakis today.

The more MMS talks about peace dialogue, the more you can bet that in the background there are things going on by us, w/o the need for the govt. to talk about it. And this has started after the Kabul Embassy attack.

Normal good cop/bad cop routine.

Whenever we have had wars with Pakistan, the psychops we have used is to let Pakistan feel superior and not respond to their ranting.

My first prediction when the news of OBL broke:

1) OBL is dead, nothing else will change

The other ones:

2) yanqui nuts will be squeezed by Pakis and in closed doors by us. We should remember that with a faltering economy, the yanquis need us more than we need them! A year from the presidential elections, jobs and economy will count in the US. And with the fabulously changing reports of OBL's death, BHO is doing himself a disservice.

3) India is capable of lambasting the US about their version of the "strategic" relationship with us.

[shiv]

Let me stick my neck out by saying this - I think terrorism against non Pakistani targets is becoming less sustainable and more unproductive. There will be attacks but I think we are likely to see a petering out. However I do expect the struggle to shift inside Pakistan where there will be infighting especially against the army . The US will try and strengthen the Pak army against those forces.

Shiv, I hope you are right. My belief is also that sooner or later TSP's strategy will start to give diminishing returns & combined with internal backlash, forcing them to stop their terror export. I had hoped 9/11 was that tipping point, unfortunately it wasn't, but their ability to fool the west has significantly decreased. They may still be able to continue their terror export for some time, but not sure it can be for much longer, my gut feel is another few years at the most, am hoping it will be less than that. Lets see...

I have no idea whether it is premeditated or not, but there is some loose cooperation between India and the US to give importance to the impotent and corrupt civilian "government" (ha ha) of Pakistan, and gradually reduce the importance of the army. Zardari lead a charmed life. e is an incompetent but, corrupt to the core but the Paki army does not dare remove him.

[Jayram]

Pakistanis say U.S. shot bin Laden in "cold blood"

Pakis have access to the crime scene (firefight). They have tons of DNA evidence (blood ) and living progeny that they can use to link the dna to the person and credibly recreate who went done where and when. They can recreate if Bin Laden was dragged or carried to the chopper with some careful analysis. They can then use this to build a story line that MAY go against the POTUS storyline and grab back some of their H&D here. Will they do that? - they are trying see above.. Are they capable of doing a modicum of investigative techniques that can stand the scrutiny of the worlds media .. I doubt it.. However they just need to come up with anything to resonate with the mango abdul. The muslim mango abdul in Pak is so shell shocked they will clutch at any straw right now..

[shiv]

Pakistanis say U.S. shot bin Laden in "cold blood"

So what?

[archan]

All,

I think we need to cut slack to newcomers or else we will be extinct as dodos. And recall all of us were newbies once. None was born already self-knowing.

And labelling folks Pakis is not helpful.

I think of the train analogy. Some of us are close to the engine while others are closer to the caboose or guard compartment. Lets be thankful they are on the tracks for the non-BRF are not even at the station! While others are at the airport.

Every new incident is an opportunity to get new members and not become a slef limiting group.


Thanks for listening,

ramana

Dhanyawaad. Now for the benefit of newbies, may I state that I was also called a paki after my first post here. Don't be too worried about it. I was able to fool them into believing I'm a SDRE... oh wait did I say that out loud?
And oldies, listen to ramana ji! Young'uns need education, not hazing.

[Rishirishi]

Those of you who are hoping that India will get something out of this, will be dissapointed.

The west has known this all along. TSP is helping Taliban and playing a double game. But what can they do?? They need acess to Afghanistan via TSP. Are they going to bomb TSP.

TSP has figured this out. Their strongest weapons are not nukes, but the destruction of TSP itself. IT would create a massive problem. That is why they feel safe and do as they please.

The west analysts are of course to silly to understand what they really need to do. Their hope is that TSP leadership will make a u-turn and start to focus on "nation building". If they had followed BRF they would have know better.

The solution for the west is to force a weapons boycott on them, weaken the army to an extent where they are left without aircrafts, subs, radar systems, and are left with handguns. They must cut off the cash supply to the armed forces so that soldiers are not payed. Once the armed forces are so weak that they are unable to undertake any other duty, then policing, will the things change.

[ramana]

^^^ i dont think so. What India is doing is the right thing. We need to take advantage of the world dynamics to our advantage. By resorting to force which is expected we play into their plans. Instead let them seethe and turn on each other. By not getting provoked we prevent the world busibodies to also seethe in impotent rage. Which idiot will agree to FT's latest homily to give up Cahemere to soothe the paki beast when Ob

Its not coincidental that OBL moved to Abbotabad in a safehouse owned by Kashmiri terrorists. My hunch is he was a the guiding light of a new wave of terrorism against India since 2005: LeT's Saeed, APHC Geelani and Ind Mujh,

[Murugan]

Arnab F**** Pakis Today...

Thats fine. But why everday four pakis are called on panel. Most of them are irritating and irrational characters. Isn't Times Now feeding pukis.

Tonight one bhadra kumar (is he that former career diplomat) was so apologetic about our General's statement that "we have capabilities". He kept on regretting this by calling it a general's mistake untimely.

He said he does not want war and would not entertain such statements because he has children and grand children as if our generals do not have.

Pathetic

[rajithn]

Correct. And I was cautioned for it. But it is rampant and sometimes assumes epidemic proportions. Have you checked the Pak arms doctrine thread in the other forum?

Shiv, I have been following the conversations on many of the BRF threads for months now so much so my wife refers to me as a "BRFnationalite" a play on "naxalite"

I have NO LOVE for Pakis. Absolutely. In an ideal world I would love to crush them overnight. But then, if wishes were horses...

The reality is we dont own the narrative. We have little say on the narrative. Which means we have had to find very sneaky ways to get things done without being censured. We are not Israel who has the unquestioned loyalty and support from the U.S. We may get there if we use our diaspora in the U.S - though the fabric of Indians and Israelis is very different and therefore achieving this, for us, would be far more difficult.

We have only experienced US perfidy. At the best of times. So what makes it different this time? The +1 because through this action they have weaved for themselves this *super* image...dovetailing beautifully into the bezillion movies on US special Forces.
[Please also consider that domestic compulsions have left the US public, and therefore constituents, with little patience for global affairs or the US role in that. Therefore, any action that the U.S takes would be to play to build domestic hubris.]

Pakistan (and we have to grant it to them) have mastered the art of spin. They sure have lost their footing on this one. For now. I say they will turn this into a +1 in the coming months because they will find a way to do it...forcing themselves into the ME issues and act as a willing help..thus getting U.S support. Distracting the world from the OBL issue by stoking some kind of action on either of their borders..miraculously arresting another HV suspect.

I am not fatalistic about India and about our people. Its just that we are too passive and benign to do anything daring. I await the day when we can understand our own power and learn that WE need to take care of OUR problems. The US wont do it. Even today I fantasise that there is truth to what Shyamd refers to in other threads: that MMS's actions has a brilliant chanakian purpose to it. The -1 for now because we sit wondering when we will grow a couple of steel ones..

[trivedi]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/world ... &ref=world

Afghan agents living in an old refugee camp in the nearby town of Haripur carried out surveillance of the house, he said.

Afghan Intelligence Agencies showing their reach and effectiveness within Pakistan...

What a smart fellow, giving away locations of their intelligence agents. Even if it is a past location, it's a stupid move.

[Muppalla]

the end game for paquistan as we know it is underway - its a question of when and not if...

You are a real optimist .
I agree everything with your post except this line. The end game of Pakis will only come when there is a certainity in the uncle's brain that there is need to recede from some portions of superpower structure. I am not convinced that economy or other reasons that US is anywhere near such a thought process. Pakistan is their number one strategic asset in controlling other powers whether those new powers are emerging or otherwise.

[abhischekcc]

>>Thats fine. But why everday four pakis are called on panel. Most of them are irritating and irrational characters. Isn't Times Now feeding pukis.

Quick Gun,

Bringing such pakis is the equivalent of letting them spit on themselves.

Some p-sec magazines follow similar policies, when they allow extreme Hindu right wingers to write poisonous articles.

[Murugan]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ we dont have to rely on khan's support.

In the past, when necessary, we had snubbed khan. e.g. in 1971 and in 1998 when Pokhran II happened. We are not afraid of khan's stance or views neither we should be much concerned about their views.

[Ashoka]

Man - this sucks. What is P'gon smoking?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110505/ap_ ... s_pakistan

Pentagon: No firm evidence of Pakistani complicity

WASHINGTON – A senior Pentagon official says the U.S. so far has no "definitive evidence" that Pakistan knew Osama bin Laden had been living in the compound where Navy SEALs killed him.

Michele Flournoy, the top policy aide to Defense Secretary Robert Gates, said the Pakistanis must now demonstrate visibly and convincingly their commitment to defeating al-Qaida. She met with a Pakistani delegation at the Pentagon on Monday and Tuesday.

She said the Pakistani government should, for example, help the U.S. exploit the materials the SEALs collected inside bin Laden's lair during their raid on Monday.

Flournoy was the first Pentagon official to comment on-the-record about Monday's raid. She offered no new details about it, but said it dealt "a very severe blow" to al-Qaida.

[pgbhat]

Dhanyawaad. Now for the benefit of newbies, may I state that I was also called a paki after my first post here. Don't be too worried about it. I was able to fool them into believing I'm a SDRE... oh wait did I say that out loud?
And oldies, listen to ramana ji! Young'uns need education, not hazing.

Not to worry they all go on to become star maulanas in BENIS.

Anyhooo....
Their Fates Were SEALed

[Murugan]

>>Thats fine. But why everday four pakis are called on panel. Most of them are irritating and irrational characters. Isn't Times Now feeding pukis.

Quick Gun,

Bringing such pakis is the equivalent of letting them spit on themselves.

Some p-sec magazines follow similar policies, when they allow extreme Hindu right wingers to write poisonous articles.

Understandable. But they must have been be paid for this - spitting on themselves + free air time. Is it worth risking for

[trivedi]

All chankian reasons are well and good but sometimes I just want us to go in there and sweep the place clean.

The sweep analogy just rings wrong. What are we going to sweep? The entire porqi army? I have no doubts that we can crush them in a war, but unless we want to get into nation building which has worked so well for amir khan, we'll have to get out at some point, leaving the festering swamp as fertile a breeding ground for terrorists as it was.

The correct thing is surgical strikes in porqi land ala amir khan, or more accurately a la the israelis who regularly take out their d-company analogues using asymmetric means.

[Baikul]

If they do officially state that they have evidence of Pakistani complicity (assuming they actually do have it), that just reduces their operational degrees of freedom. Plus public opinion at home will 'force' them to act precipitately.

IMO it's not going to happen anytime soon.

[R Vaidya]

Proposition 1
When US is unhappy with Pak it tilts to India
not true
Proposition 2
US should/will cut off Aid to Pak when angry with Pak.
Not true. Aid to Pak is a huge gravy train where Generals liberally help US dalals/Netas. Hillary told after Osama killing that " we need to continue to engage with Pak"
Proposition 3
India being Democracy US should be with it rather than Pak
Not true. US is more comfortable with dictators--Sometime India thinks on its own--and vote in UN
Proposition 4
US should dismantle terror infrastructure in Pak
Partly true .Only if it affects US. Not if it is against India
Proposition 5
US should work to split Pak.
No way-- It is expected/groomed as bulwork against China-Which may be a dream -only for US.
Proposition 6
India should grow to 6 tr economy and then deal with Pak
True . Since there is no choice. Leaders like Gujral/Advani/MMS--all born on the wrong side of the border are romantic about Pak-- Lahore Haveli/Halwa/Mujira etc.Plus since some of our netas have illegal money abroad our policies are not fully framed in Delhi

Hence--US is abused wife ,Pak rabid dog, we are impotent neighbours. In the short term 3-5 years we need to perhaps endure that which cannot be cured.By then from Banias, power might have hopefully shifted to Kshatrias.

R.Vaidya

[trivedi]

Proposition 1
By then from Banias, power might have hopefully shifted to Kshatrias.

R.Vaidya

Vaidyaji, you sound like a logical and practical man, so I presume that this last line was used metaphorically rather than literally. However this caste based model of thinking, even when metaphorical, ends up hurting us as a country. Attributes like courage and decisiveness are not genetical, although cultural biases do affect them. The quote by Swami Vivekananda about how strength is in the mind, quoted earlier in this thread, comes to mind! By continuing to propagate our cultural biases, knowingly or unknowingly, we end up hurting ourselves.

--Neither a bania, nor a kshatriya

[Murugan]

Murugan saar, let's make him a member here, and then haze him.

But then he will get a noob 'advantage' !

****

Our bhartiya Noobs are future stragesists and shishya of legendary gurus and oldies are like acharyas/gurus.

Noobs have to be a good shishya and acharyas have to be Vinamra to noobs (the 2nd motto of BRF shield).

[ramana]

Trrivedi, What R Vaidya is alluding to is the flight of the geese.

A flight of geese don't have a pack leader on their long journey/annual migration to the destination. When the lead bird tires, the next one steps in and they continue the flight and thus reach the destination.

In our case the journey needs the economy to grow and hence that attribute has to to be in the lead.

[Sanku]

All chankian reasons are well and good but sometimes I just want us to go in there and sweep the place clean.

The sweep analogy just rings wrong. What are we going to sweep? The entire porqi army?

That and more.

I have no doubts that we can crush them in a war, but unless we want to get into nation building which has worked so well for amir khan, we'll have to get out at some point, leaving the festering swamp as fertile a breeding ground for terrorists as it was.

Amir khan does not have a clue about nation building. We do. Also we have done nation building in that part of our country before. We can again.

The correct thing is surgical strikes in porqi land ala amir khan, or more accurately a la the israelis who regularly take out their d-company analogues using asymmetric means.

Insufficient, time pass, hoping to kick the can to times we are "stronger" or for our children to take care of.

It will have to happen sooner than later. If we can decide and proactively do it rather than be forced to, it will be better.

And yes, its not going to be pretty, so lets not get into "does this mean x, y, z...."

[Muppalla]

Proposition 4
US should dismantle terror infrastructure in Pak
Partly true .Only if it affects US. Not if it is against India

US will try its best to dismantle the portions that are targetting US and whites in the west. It will tacitly approve or even encourage (if needed) the other portions.

[Sam]

With a population of ~120,000 it is hard to believe that Osama would have been an unknown person in Abbottabad.
This approximates to 20,000 households (@ 6 per family), ppl talk and gossip a lot in Pakistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbottabad