India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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Prasad
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Prasad » 05 May 2011 10:54

In the radar there seem to be a max of 36x36 horizontal x vertical. We can get an approx count from that. I'd say pi*r^2 would give 3.14x18^2 ~ 1017. Not bad eh?

Could someone also let us know what those tiny glass window type things on Katrina's "cheeks" are?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby arunsrinivasan » 05 May 2011 11:01

From the transport aircraft for IAF thread

Austin wrote:Parts that are manufactured or can be manufactured locally are lic built ones , they dont make duplicate but take lic rights from OEM to manufacture it locally along with design document , even those built locally are made from engineering equipment directly imported from OEM.

Its not always feasible to manufacture all the parts locally or the OEM might refuse lic for critical components that has to be directly imported.

This is nothing specific to Russia or any other country , thats how things work thats a BIG pitfall in importing equipment , you are dependent on the OEM through out equipment life time for support and services.

If you use duplicate components or just order from any body other then authorised vendor , the OEM can refuse(legally) to provide any support spares and leaving the entire class of equipment to OEM mercy.

Look at the way how France has been making India dance to its tune for M2K upgrade , its like more then 5 years of negotiation and counting , India has no choice but to opt for OEM which is Dassult , if India refuses to do so the entire M2K fleet spares/support will end up in big trouble.


This is what makes me wary about choosing Rafale, how can we protect ourselves in the MMRCA contract?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Austin » 05 May 2011 11:30

arunsrinivasan wrote:This is what makes me wary about choosing Rafale, how can we protect ourselves in the MMRCA contract?


Like I mentioned this is not specific to Rafale , it can be EADS , Dassult or UAC that can play hard , you can add penalty clause and stuff like that and make it a water tight contract which will force vendor to play by rule and the vendor would expect you to play by rules.

But in the end thats a pitfall of importing stuff , it will still not save you from the fact that more you import latest and greatest stuff money can buy the more we will be dependent on the OEM.

If some day we end up on the wrong side of NATO ( and NATO includes US ) , EADS and Dassult will give us the same treatment by imposing sanctions etc and all the legal stuff in a tightly worded contract will just remain a paper thing.

The only safe bet is to develop your own aviation industry that can develop aircraft or all its component so we do not have to depend on any body.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ranjithnath » 05 May 2011 11:53

Prasad wrote:In the radar there seem to be a max of 36x36 horizontal x vertical. We can get an approx count from that. I'd say pi*r^2 would give 3.14x18^2 ~ 1017. Not bad eh?

Could someone also let us know what those tiny glass window type things on Katrina's "cheeks" are?

those glass windows are all part of the spectra system(including the black thingy near the canard joint).those green windows are passive IR detectors i guess,maybe gurus can elaborate more.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby arunsrinivasan » 05 May 2011 12:03

@ Austin,
you are right the problem remains as long as you import the aircraft. I get the feeling (rightly or wrongly) that French are more greedy than the others, while the others (US, Europe) are more sanctions prone. If we are smart about the contract & terms, hopefully we could potentially limit the room for maneuver for French.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby arthuro » 05 May 2011 13:58

To correct an assertion above, the green boxes bellow the checks are Radar warning receiver. The black boxes at the root of the canards are the AESA jammers. You have another RWR and AESA jammer behind the rafale to have all around coverage.

IR and laser warning reciever are the black windows on the tale and on the nose.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Austin » 05 May 2011 14:09

arunsrinivasan wrote:@ Austin,
I get the feeling (rightly or wrongly) that French are more greedy than the others, while the others (US, Europe) are more sanctions prone. If we are smart about the contract & terms, hopefully we could potentially limit the room for maneuver for French.


French are as greedy as anybody out there in the market trying to grab its share of pie ( they do has excellent product to sell at a cost ) , French equipment traditionally tends to be costlier compared to say similar Russian or Israel stuff , hence they appear to be more greedy if you look at $$$ value involved in specific deal.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby aditya.agd » 05 May 2011 14:34

Thst's where i feel that India is too big a country to depend on foreign military wares. IAF must develop a new habit to promote indegenous technology or work with only russians.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ranjithnath » 05 May 2011 14:39

arthuro wrote:To correct an assertion above, the green boxes bellow the checks are Radar warning receiver. The black boxes at the root of the canards are the AESA jammers. You have another RWR and AESA jammer behind the rafale to have all around coverage.

IR and laser warning reciever are the black windows on the tale and on the nose.

thanks for the correction.but you still havnt answered my question on last page.are you the same arthuro(eagle1) from keypubs?? :?:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 05 May 2011 16:15

manually counting half the front face gave me 510 => 1020.

the power of the module and technology of back end also matters a lot I suppose not just raw aperture.

the F-solah block60 APG80 has 1100. big daddy apg77 has 1500.

but 1020 with sophisticated back end, reliability and signal processing of Thales calibre should be plenty enough - and its just the first cut.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Viv S » 05 May 2011 16:32

arthuro wrote:To correct an assertion above, the green boxes bellow the checks are Radar warning receiver. The black boxes at the root of the canards are the AESA jammers. You have another RWR and AESA jammer behind the rafale to have all around coverage.


AESA jammer? Is that an AESA used for jamming or jammer designed to operate against hostile AESA radars?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Viv S » 05 May 2011 17:03

Singha wrote:but 1020 with sophisticated back end, reliability and signal processing of Thales calibre should be plenty enough - and its just the first cut.


Depends on how you define 'enough'. Rafale supporters believe the air to ground capability is key with the air to air capability needs just be adequate.

Me thinks that given the EF's 1425 T/R Captor-E on offer, the 850 T/R RBE-2AA will be comfortably outperformed. And while the EF can and will eventually catch up in terms of strike capabilities (especially once its pulse doppler Captor-M is replace with an ESA), I don't think the Rafale is going to get the nose job that it desperately needs (even the Tejas has a bigger nose :wink: ).

Another idea often advocated is that introduction of GaN modules will make the comparison less skewed. While Thales may (not necessarily though) have the edge on Selex-Galileo right now, they're not introducing the technology any time soon. The IAF's EF/Rafales will come with the plain vanilla GaAs modules. And by the time they're ready for the first upgrade (2023-24 earliest), you can safely expect Euroradar to be offering GaN modules as well.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby arthuro » 05 May 2011 17:24

The technology used is AESA. those are AESA antennas used to jamm. Rafale is the only aircraft to use that technilogy for jamming with the F22, SH and F35

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2011 17:30

Dileep wrote:Well, your dirty kafir mind can also think about Katrina's CockPit.


damn too tight it seems! kudos to lca-mk2 actually. still,.. don't want to stop your enjoyment with this:-

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2011 18:53

Viv S wrote:AESA jammer? Is that an AESA used for jamming or jammer designed to operate against hostile AESA radars?


I guess the answer is very difficult, especially when you consider jamming the APG79 or raptor radar, where it sends with pulse mode and LPI. the programmable radar however has option to fine tune to such signatures, and quickly analyze distance of source, possible source signature from the frequency, etc.

Since the brochure says it is for ECCM, and fully programmable, everything is in your hands. However, a future GaN could resolve all issues with respect to performance.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby shukla » 05 May 2011 21:11

One deal will not impact US-India relations: Ambassador

Roemer described the US-India relations as a "global partnership" on security, environment, green technology and fighting poverty. "We are two partners working together for global peace, global partnership. One deal does not impact that strategic relationship," he said.

The Ambassador said America was "deeply disappointed" that two of its companies – Boeing and Lockheed Martin – did not make up to be final round for the bid under which India will procure 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF). "We believe that cost of F-18 and F-16 is about 70 to 80 million (dollars) a piece and the Typhoon and Rafale is around 130 million (dollars) a piece. We provided great value particularly to the tax payers of India.


yes..the sudden concern for the tax payers of India. Yawnn

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 05 May 2011 21:33

Ambassador Saab forgets one key thing --> the Super Hornet that was offered to India was a downgraded version and although Boeing claims that the aircraft was compliant with the MMRCA requirements, that is not good enough. But now that the down select has been done, we have learnt that Super Hornet did not meet the requirements of the MMRCA and so cost does not even come into play. Not to mention performance issues in high altitude areas.

In SDRE language…this is like an arranged marriage. We have certain requirements (education, work experience, culinary skills :D ) in the bride we want to marry. We see six prospective candidates and if bride 3 and 4 exceeds those expectations then why not marry one of them? Why saddle ourselves with Rakhi Sawant and TunTun (my nickname for the F-16 Block 70…Bollywood watchers will know who I am referring to!) when Katrina can do the same job and not have her family coming to inspect how we are treating their daughter? Just because your prospective father-in-law gave you permission to speak to his daughter, that does not mean you have to marry her!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby rajanb » 05 May 2011 22:09

Fareed Zakaria of Time magazine on CNN IBN (and as usual we are fawning over them) claiming that India is still stuck in Non-Alignment and Cold War doctrines as shown by turning them down with the MRCA.

Sometimes I begin to feel its good we got away from Unkils offerings.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby narayana » 05 May 2011 22:19

Dileep wrote:Cockpit


Self deleted :)

Sorry for OT
Last edited by narayana on 05 May 2011 22:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby narayana » 05 May 2011 22:27

ramana wrote:You will lose the advantage of increasing the qty. (lower unit costs) by splitting the order and not to mention the increase in logistics.


I Agree Saar,but if we can stop these guys selling major stuff to pakistan with the MMRCA carrot,we can have 2 birds with one shot,as we stopped JF-17 avionics update from french,with the mirage upgrades.similarly if Germany gives second thought on selling HDW's to pakistan.

American and Sweden are already selling to pakistan so it wont effect anyway,and russia will not sell to pakistan.we may have half of the Europe on our side IMHO

if we can get best tech and strategic leverage,then it will be double whammy.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 05 May 2011 22:48

yeah lets get all the mangoes from tree in one shot...
dhoti shivering...they'll sell this to them and that...so what, we are out to bragain, or they are out to bargain...
Did gripen sell to pakistan...mushrraf went to sweden? Why not now if Gripen want to sell the fighters desperately? Why it wont sell to Pakistan?
Why your worry of EF in pakistan is just an old SDRE jeans flutter?
EF wont sell then Rafale will...arre for 40 million spare parts pakistan is needing bank loans from French Banks for several years...
Stop this...Enjoy salivating over Katrina...lets not worry in bedroom...
We are making money and getting stabler...and remember in this world we live in, no bravado exists without backup of social status or money or both...So stop worrying when we have put our best foot forward...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 05 May 2011 22:54

Perhaps Mr Zakaria would be kind enough to explain how the F16 and F18 are better than the Rafale and Eurofighter? In the free market the buyer has sensibly chosen the best value proposition for themselves. This is called the 21st century economics. Selecting inferior equipment with a host of use conditions and then taking permission to use them is cold war thinking! So it is he who is exhibiting the client state cold war thinking.

Grow up Fareed Zakaria.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Nesoj » 05 May 2011 23:06

Rakesh wrote:
tejas wrote:The Tiffy is one of the ugliest beats I have ever seen.

Another reason why I gave her the name Shatru...but some BRFites did not like the name.


Birds are sexy ....... like .....
- volumptious & sexy - Rambha
- sleek & sexy - Katrina
- tough & sexy - ??? (someone who would easily fit into the role of a female WWF fighter - I wouldn't call the Tiffy 'ugly')
Last edited by Nesoj on 05 May 2011 23:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2011 23:07

who cares about this fakreed zhakaria's comments!? you know what CNN represents.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 05 May 2011 23:22

IMHO its always good to challenge these jokers and get your point out there. Once a narrative is created it does impact outcomes. A lie repeated long enough becomes the truth. What are the Europeans saying?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 05 May 2011 23:30

^^^
I think some misperceptions are at play with some of the above comments. Please allow me to explain:

1. Pakistan is a client state of China and the US.

2. As such, Pakistan receives freebies from China and the US, including freebie warplanes.

3. I see no reason why either France or any of the European consortium countries should wish to engage Pakistan in a similar arrangement. The TSP would actually have to pay for a eurobird, unlike how they receive a/c from China and the US.

4. I see no likely possibility of Pakistan developing the deep pockets on its own to be able to afford Rafales or Eurofighters.

5. I see no possibility of China or the US underwriting a Pakistani purchase of Rafales or Eurofighters. This is virtually impossible.

6. Worst case potential scenario would be RSAF (from KSA) Eurofighters engaged on the side of the TSP -- but this is a very remote possibility, and could never be done with sizeable magnitude without seriously degrading the KSA's own capabilities.

7. ERGO, Rakshaks should stop daydreaming of a "technology denial regime" implemented by way of restrictive buyer's covenants with the French or Europeans. Even if this were possible, this would itself be the flimsiest kind of constraint.

8. In time of war, an IN missile cruiser in the Arabian Sea would be sufficient to prevent RSAF Eurofighters from entering the fray on the TSP's side, particularly since this would require a slow, lumbering, tanker escort.
Last edited by Ravi Karumanchiri on 06 May 2011 04:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2011 23:41

You mean get UN declare war against paki terror outfits? I am game! but can our budda babooze think?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby srai » 06 May 2011 00:28

Rakesh wrote:
SaiK wrote:any more close ups?

How about this? :mrgreen:

http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/1/2d8c6f40-377b-41bd-a179-8d63cf1c9dbc.Full.jpg

Fellow Rakshaks: If you have a slow internet connection....don't bother or at least open in another window.

Couldn't help it ... but had to count to get the exact numbers :wink:

Code: Select all

There are a total of 35 columns, which are divided into the following:

        T/R        # Columns               T/R Total
------------------------------------------------------
1.      8               2                     16
2.      12              2                     24
3.      15              2                     30
4.      18              2                     36
5.      20              2                     40
6.      22              2                     44
7.      23              2                     46
8.      24              2                     48
9.      25              2                     50
10.     26              2                     52
11.     27              2                     54
12.     28             13                    364
-------------------------------------------------------
Total:                 35                    804

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby svinayak » 06 May 2011 00:52

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Perhaps Mr Zakaria would be kind enough to explain how the F16 and F18 are better than the Rafale and Eurofighter? In the free market the buyer has sensibly chosen the best value proposition for themselves. This is called the 21st century economics. Selecting inferior equipment with a host of use conditions and then taking permission to use them is cold war thinking! So it is he who is exhibiting the client state cold war thinking.

Grow up Fareed Zakaria.

He is stuck in the old India and the current generation is looking at the world globally and for national interest.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Gagan » 06 May 2011 01:06

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Image

Image

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Avid » 06 May 2011 01:14

Rafale = ET Technology

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby AJames » 06 May 2011 01:59

A small diameter radar doesn't necessarily make Rafael inferior to Eurofighter. The radar is one of the biggest contributors to frontal radar cross section, and a mechanically scanned radar has a particularly large radar return - AESA is much better in this respect. Smaller radar and AESA means smaller frontal radar return from Rafael. The concept of small radar on a stealthy aircraft with advanced long range passive IR detection and receiving targeting information from multiple AWACS and multiple long range radar aircraft is probably the way to deal with stealth. The Rafael would actually go well with India's Su30 MKIs, FGFAs and AWACs in this role.

It should be noted that stealth aircraft like the F22 and B2 are difficult to detect by direct radar illumination, and when on an attack mission will not turn on their radar as this will give away their location. For that sort of scenario, the idea of an EF or Rafael detecting an F22 before the F22 detects it isn't going to happen. The solution is IR detection and indirect detection from a long range. For an F22 which doesn't want to turn its radar on, having Rafaels of LCAs lurking close by to get the first shot when the F22 turns on its radar to lock on to an MKI just at the limit of its range is probably more worrying than direct radar engagement at long range where the F22 will always win.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Z-bLuffer » 06 May 2011 02:26

srai wrote:Couldn't help it ... but had to count to get the exact numbers :wink:

Code: Select all

There are a total of 35 columns, which are divided into the following:

        T/R        # Columns               T/R Total
------------------------------------------------------
1.      8               2                     16
2.      12              2                     24
3.      15              2                     30
4.      18              2                     36
5.      20              2                     40
6.      22              2                     44
7.      23              2                     46
8.      24              2                     48
9.      25              2                     50
10.     26              2                     52
11.     27              2                     54
12.     28             13                    364
-------------------------------------------------------
Total:                 35                    804

Hello,

I think it's more in the likes of:

Code: Select all


        T/R        # Columns               T/R Total
------------------------------------------------------
1.      8               2                     16
2.      12              2                     24
3.      15              2                     30
4.      18              2                     36
5.      20              2                     40
6.      22              2                     44
7.      23              2                     46
8.      24              2                     48
9.      25              2                     50
10.     26              2                     52
11.     27              2                     54
12.     28              8                    224
13.     29              6                    174
-------------------------------------------------------
Total:                 36                    838


Not a big difference, though. :-?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 06 May 2011 03:07

coming to think of it, that refueling pod actually a black spot on kat. can't she cut that drag? :) 4++ gen must be retractable imo.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Karan M » 06 May 2011 03:15

james

Don't get me wrong, pretty much everything you have said is mistaken, no offense intended.

Antenna aperture is critical to radar performance given constraints of physics & manufacturing technology. The radar range equation speaks for itself. But lets turn to practical considerations.
The US is heavily relying on its larger AESA carrying fighters like the F-22 and F-15s to defend against cruise missiles. For instance, note the comment made in context with Japan
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... %20Offense

F-15s equipped with AESA would have a larger radar aperture than the F-22. As a result, in the defensive, anti-cruise missile role, the Eagle would have an advantage in detecting smaller objects at longer range because of its additional power and size.


All this talk of GaN being a saver is missing point to put it mildly. Only the US has production ready GaN chip for scale production per reports, and the French are talking of GaN and the cloud radar concept to come about by 2020 or thereabouts provided funding is assured! And even there, a larger aperture GaN radar will outperform a smaller one. And today, a smaller GaAs radar will be outperformed by a larger one, assuming Tx/Rx technology is at the same level. And given the genesis of the Captor-E and Thales RBE-2 AESA is from the same technology development programs, they will be at the same level.

Your statement that the F-22 will not turn on its radar during an attack mission is also mistaken. The F-22 is basically an air dominance platform with a tacked on A2G mission via a handful of SDBs (small diameter bombs). It relies extensively on its APG-77 low probability of intercept radar to accomplish both its air dominance and A2G missions. It, like the EF & Rafale & most other fighters couples the discrete use of radar with a sophisticated passive ESM suite, the AN/ALR-94. While the AN/ALR-94 can detect radiating fighters, its useless against silent fighters relying on IRST or flying via directions from GCS. Hence, the use of the onboard radar is critical. A LPI radar, like that on the F-22 is basically one which employs customized waveforms, frequency agility and also, very short RF bursts to avoid triggering legacy, non digital RWRs which detect long, preprogrammed bursts of RF energy. Its not perfect (many countries are now developing systems that can detect LPI) but it is better than most and right now its one of its kind.

While your contention that mechanically scanned array radar can cause large radar returns is correct, it ignores the fact that the EF has a special frequency selective radome, which has been optimized for the specific RF bandwidth of the Captor radar! This is the same approach as used on the F-22. Its not that AESA's per se offer a smaller return, a gimballed AESA would offer an equally large return! Only that on the F-22 and JSF, the radar is at an inclination to offset any radar returns from returning directly to the radar!! Plus, there are other methods to deal with reducing radar returns from mechanical radars. Check Russia's method for the Zhuk sold to India:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... 0a81179c86

Coming back to the basic point, a smaller antenna AESA will have lesser performance than one with a larger aperture. It's all ok when dealing with large platforms like the PLAAF's modified Flankers carrying homebrewed radars which may give similar ranges to the smaller RBE 2 AESA and then lose out because of the platforms larger RCS, but will face severe challenges when dealing with reduced RCS targets at range, and which are low flying, eg cruise missiles. Also, even targets at roughly the same altitude which are optimized for frontal stealth in the X Band, will be hard to tackle. These include targets like the J-20. Take a look at the design and the size of the J-20's nose. The Chinese are nothing if not pragmatic. They kept maximum space for a large aperture AESA, even considering their Tx/Rx modules may not be as effective as those of the west or even Russian ones.

So, signatures are reducing, jammers are becoming better and better, the need for powerful radars is increasing, not decreasing.

Also, now, relying on AESA equipped Su-30 MKIs to hold the edge against much larger numbers of PLAAF+PAF aircraft has one critical deficiency! The weapon - the legacy RVV-AE and even its follow on the RVV-SD, are firmly in the class of the AMRAAM and RVV-AE/SD-10 class systems the Pakistanis and Chinese field!!

Ideally, we'd want to couple the long range Meteor to the longest range radar as possible, and also one with large azimuth gimbal limits, so the pilot can take a BVR shot and then attempt to escape while still tracking his target. Hence the EF insistence on a gimballed AESA radar!

Waiting for the PAKFA/FGFA to come and take up the Air Dominance task is not pragmatic. Its a complex developmental program, and is unlikely to come about by 2017 irrespective of what PV Naik says. I fear he significantly underestimates the scale of difficulty in fielding an operational fully capable stealth platform like the FGFA, especially one with all the bells and whistles which the IAF will demand. His thoughts on the LCA were also likewise, wherein he underestimated what making a fighter entails. Consider the much simpler Su-35, its yet to enter series production with flight tests continuing even on the first "series production variant", with tests of its FBW and other avionics and then consider the FGFA.

My point is simple, aircraft design involves tradeoffs. The Rafale is better in A2G (it can carry heavy loads like the Scalp & extra Fuel) while the EF is better at air dominance (longer ranged radar being a critical requirement, plus SEP at high altitudes) and lacks the payload optimization of Rafale for A2G (it cant carry both Scalps and fuel, the landing gear gets in the way).

This is a tradeoff the IAF has to choose, and its not going to be simple. The EF technically can adopt to the A2G role provided more investment is provided. Its limitations in terms of payload options can be compensated for by moving fuel to CFTs, and more weapons can be integrated. It may not be as discrete at A2G low level attack as the Rafale is, but should be good even so. It does have TERPROM, and autonav features. The problem is this will require funding and time.

Simply put, the Rafale is a more complete package today, but for the ill considered (IMO) decision to limit the radar performance by insisting on a small nose, whereas the EF offers more raw growth potential considering current design & volume, but is hampered by ad hoc funding and user disinterest in the advanced options post the Cold War urgency.
Hence my harping that the French (somehow) create the "super Rafale", the Emiratis asked for, within IAF budget constraints.

http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f7/ ... #post10255
With the general Alain SILVY
Deputy Chief Plans within the Staff of the Air Force.

Is the Air force interested by some of the UAE requirements ?

From my point of view, it depends where. We could be potentially interested by the M88-X with 9 tons of thrust because it would be, in the circumstances, an open field. But, on the other hand, we have not yet reached the stage of maturity - which requires about 150,000 flight hours – with the current M88 with 7.5 tonnes thrust. This means that with the M88-X, even if it should presumptively enjoy a good community with the existing M88, we would have to accumulate even more hours to reach the stage of maturity of the engine.

Very clearly, in my opinion, the M88-X is not for the Air force an immediate need. In order to sell the Rafale to the UAE, the Defense may ultimately be asked to acquire the M88-X in a quantity and on terms still to be defined. And we'll maybe even happy to use it. But today we have no technical or operational reasons to make it available for us.The gain expected from the arrival of a more powerful engine is lower than the risks we would go with the technical immaturity of new modules and the management in parallel - so complicated in terms of logistics and operational employment of aircraft with different performances –of two relatively different parks of M88. All this must be thorough.

Would it be possible to see Safran manufacturing M88-X for UAE and continue to deliver “classic” M88 for the french Rafale? And this notwithstanding that the french government would have co-funded the development of the M88-X

It is not forbidden to imagine it. On condition, however, that to maintain the parallel production of two versions of M88 does not cost more than producing a single model. The support costs must not explode. Safran must tell us very quickly and very frankly what it would be. And again, nothing force us to equip the whole fleet of Rafale, Air and/or Marine.


And about the UAE demand to have a more powerful RBE2 radar, could it answer to some expectations for the Air force?

The Air Force is interested in having a RBE2 with an active antenna. It is now established with the powerful AESA antenna which will equip our tranche 4 Rafale. What the Emirians are calling for is much more complex. They want, in addition to the AESA, to have new functionalities on their Rafale, such as GMTT / GMTI (detection and tracking of moving ground target), interlacing between air/air and air/ground modes, etc.. Even if this is not for us an urgent need, the operational 'plus' obtained could nonetheless eventually interest us. However, the key Emirian demand is about the range of the RBE2. And, with the same antenna diameter, the only way to achieve the 10% range increase (compared with the Basic AESA F3 "roadmap") that wish to obtain the Emirians, is a big boost to the power of the radar.

But more power to the RBE2, could it be a risk to generate serious electromagnetic interference (EMI) with the SPECTRA receptors ?

There is indeed a very real EMI risk to treat. This is the case whenever we want to change aircraft emission systems. There are solutions, obviously, but this will require to reexamine SPECTRA.

But the biggest problem we have identified is about electric generation, which could be insufficient. To increase the maximum range of a few nautical miles, we would have to deeply review the electrical generation system of the aircraft.

In short, to conceive what it could be a Rafale-9, that is to say a new aircraft moving away from the similarity you want with french Rafale. The Emirati experts participating in negotiations are well aware of the problem. But they are also used to have very high quality weapons systems. They want to avoid any regression with the Rafale, at least on the radar range, compared to the F-16 Block 60, the Rafale having also many other qualities. The Emirians don’t have AWACS and therefore want - it is a fundamental requirement - that the Rafale can see very far.


Beyond the radar, they are showing fairly strong requirements into SPECTRA development with, for example, the expansion of some frequency bands, an increased sensitivity, adding functionalities; in short, they want we push up the current technologies. Of course, to improve the electronic warfare of our Rafale faster than originally planned could be an additional operational advantage for the Air force. However, our current approach is to consolidate the features implemented in SPECTRA, to make them more robust and make it easier for operators and programmers before wanting to go further into addition of new capabilities. The current SPECTRA is working well and even very good. In sum, what separates us, about Spectra, is a matter of timing and calendar […]. In a more general way, we share the same wishes about capabilities, but with very different maturities calendar sometimes. Budgetary constraints remain a dimensioning factor.


While the Spectra improvements are on the lines of "good to have", and the Leh trials indicate the current Rafale is really not underpowered per se, the radar range is an issue, especially as when the French Gen himself says, AWACS is not available.

India currently has 6 AWACS on order. But we need around four times that number to have sustained coverage during wartime, assuming station times, maintenance etc. Its simply a critical need (IMO) that we need every bit of radar range that we can get, because the next "MLU" will only come around 2020 or thereabouts.

OTOH, the French General says that the radar range is 10% less than that of the APG-80. Thats still a respectable figure for today, and better than what the Zhuk FGA-35 has achieved so far and approaches much larger radars. It will support the Meteor, but without a gimbal, will not be as effective at the fire and crank maneuver the EF is designed for. Also, the question is that whether it will be good till 2020, I hope so

Its all about tradeoffs!!

Karan M
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Karan M » 06 May 2011 03:28

To understand the complex Tranche and Block business of the EF program

http://www.fast-air.co.uk/typhoon-block ... e-summary/

The funding problems
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... idian.html

I have to admit, its a pretty complex procurement as compared to the Rafale

srai
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby srai » 06 May 2011 06:14

Karan M wrote:... Rafale... because the next "MLU" will only come around 2020 or thereabouts.
...


FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale
Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020.

Singha
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 06 May 2011 06:49

imo they should introduce some conformal ram air driven electric generation pods to produce the addltional power.

SaiK
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 06 May 2011 07:17

interesting, how about pod based tvc then? perhaps two dedicated pods near the rear

Indranil
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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Indranil » 06 May 2011 08:08

^^^ No, a pod is not a solution for extra electric generation. We can not create energy out of nowhere. When you attach such a pod you are just increasing the drag by atleast that much (considering 100% conversion rate from the kinetic energy to the electric energy). Since this is not possible with present technology, using of a pod is not a good solution as additionally it increases the FCS


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