India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby akimalik » 06 May 2011 09:40

talking about Podding & Modding, what is the feasibility of having a podded radar?
that way, in a flight, one a/c can act as the dedicated AWACS kind of a/c while the others in the swarms can use the network centric capabilities to quietly go about their tasks?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Prasad » 06 May 2011 10:34

Size, weight, processing would make it entirely non-feasible. Might as well use a dedicated awacs than using a pod

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby mahesh Sankar » 06 May 2011 14:40

Rakesh wrote:http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1nCPYzdhnH4/TcCcJPSLo3I/AAAAAAAABEo/FgtkJ2tOY_8/s1600/R4-_AP19508.JPG

This one is truly beautiful…Katrina dispensing her flares. The flash from the flares gives the impression of a light desert camo (most prominent below the front left canard), but the grey below is a dead giveaway! Someone please identify those missiles? Are those MICAs? I know Katrina well...but I am zero on her accessories :)


It looks awesome........

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby mahesh Sankar » 06 May 2011 14:43

Can anyone plz tell give details abouit the RCS of Rafale and EF?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 06 May 2011 14:45

then why designers always go for external fuel tanks (the largest drag I can think off..)? increased internal fuel capacity is the ideal choice for optimal drag. I am seeing Rafale from pics with 3 external fuel tanks, that would be a horrible drag for the a/c!

one may argue conformal tanks, but the same drag issue is there not? or since it is above the wing, and as long as it blends with the aerodynamic shapes it is a better option?

I agree no external FCS is a right design since, without which, a main piece of control is missing.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Austin » 06 May 2011 14:58

If designers opt for more internal fuel then they may end up with a big aircraft of Flanker size , not every body needs that big fighter.

Conformal tanks AFAIK is always better since it shapes with aerodynamic of the aircraft (compared to drop tank ) and leaves HP for weapons etc , on the down side you cannot jettison it and there would be some aerodynamic/drag penalty with conformal tanks.


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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SidSom » 06 May 2011 15:47

One more issue with Conformal tanks is that they may require the redesign of the plane and add to its dry weight itself. The hard points freed will allow more number of weapons to be carried but still the MTOW,Max Landing weight still have to be adheared to. So if you find that you are always carrying EFTs then it is a case to consider Conformal tanks.Else they are more of a penalty.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby NRao » 06 May 2011 16:02



Most, if not all, of these should apply for the EF too.

As has already been speculated the Rafale seems to be "in".

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 06 May 2011 17:05

NRao, what are you saying? can you give some details please?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Viv S » 06 May 2011 17:07

NRao wrote:


Most, if not all, of these should apply for the EF too.

As has already been speculated the Rafale seems to be "in".


Why? Forgetting the fact that irdw article seems to be poorly thought out and amateurishly written, three of the six points made deal with the unwillingness of the US to share technology - not something that the EF consortium can be accused of, with the offer of partnership and so on. The other points made - 'failure on technical grounds', 'chinese angle' aren't applicable either and it remains to be seen if 'logistical and infrastructure problems' come into play.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Luxtor » 06 May 2011 17:25

Viv S Sir, I agree with you that the article is written amateurishly with many grammatical errors which tends to take away from the article's credibility (rightfully or wrongfully). The "Chinese angle" was the most implausible. India in order to keep China from flooding Pukistan with their arms, decided not to buy American in order to prevent that? Very bizarre logic. What about all the arms the Americans gifted and sold at bargain basement prices to the Pukis themselves, that was of no concern to the Chinese? The Chinese have already been historically giving plenty of arms, including all of the Puki's nukes and all of their missiles. None of the Puki's nukes or missiles are Puki made, except maybe the green paint and the wacky Puki/Islamic names that they give them.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby NRao » 06 May 2011 22:10

Viv S wrote:
Why? Forgetting the fact that irdw article seems to be poorly thought out and amateurishly written, three of the six points made deal with the unwillingness of the US to share technology - not something that the EF consortium can be accused of, with the offer of partnership and so on. The other points made - 'failure on technical grounds', 'chinese angle' aren't applicable either and it remains to be seen if 'logistical and infrastructure problems' come into play.


SaiK,

I have been saying this for eons.

Specially in the area of AESA, there is NO one there that comes close to the US.

So, what the crap are Indians doing balle, balle about when FR/EU = US v2?

FR needs a cool billion dollars and some 9 more years to catch up with what HAS been production technologies of the US in the area of AESA!!!! EF is even further down the stream. In the area of AESA forget it. 2025 is perhaps the earliest India will see something worth it - by that time the US will be on v9. (let me get hold of an article of how far ahead the US IS - they have build conformal AESA that are STRUCTURAL components for a F-18 - granted in the lab right now. And we are still counting the number of T/R on a French radar? And are thrilled with that? Imagine when France comes out - IF they get a billion dollar fund - with whatever in 2020, the US by then will HAVE F-18s whose body parts will be AESAs - AESA radar modules taking the load of a F-18 in full flight!!! IT IS there today!!)

On ToT.

* What is to prevent France from maintaining two sets of code/APIs? Do we REALLY expect them to part with ALL their code? Crap. I do not believe it for a second. Granted that is my opinion.

* EF. India NEEDS research methodologies and data. unless the EF can be Indianized it will be useless in the long run. Sharing this plane with EU for the NEXT 40 years is a horrendous thought. A nation that is expected to have 2/3/4 largest eco and having 200(??) (20% of her AF) where she has no control over? Not my cup of tea.

I do not want to get into why the US products are better - their planes are OUT. But the debate of what the FR/EU has to provide needs to continue. And, very unfortunately the only competitor is the US. ????

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Indranil » 06 May 2011 22:13

SaiK wrote:then why designers always go for external fuel tanks (the largest drag I can think off..)? increased internal fuel capacity is the ideal choice for optimal drag. I am seeing Rafale from pics with 3 external fuel tanks, that would be a horrible drag for the a/c!

one may argue conformal tanks, but the same drag issue is there not? or since it is above the wing, and as long as it blends with the aerodynamic shapes it is a better option?

I agree no external FCS is a right design since, without which, a main piece of control is missing.

Ofcourse the external fuel tanks always add drag. But the drag there is of the minimalistic order. THe best solution is to go for internal fuel, but a sAustin sahab says, how do you suddenly bump the volume inside a plane.

However, if you are speaking of an auxiliary power unit, You are not speaking of aerodynamic drag. You are trying to change part of your kinetic energy into the electrical energy. Probably you would have a fan attached to a generator a which is turned by the relative velocity of the air. The faster you want to want to make this fan turn, the harder you have to push this apparatus. In air the only push comes from your thrust. So by keeping the thrust constant you can not generate more energy. If you generate more electical energy, your kinematic energy will go down.

Also when you add this APU, you are increasing the mass you are carring around. For the same amount of thrust, the more the mass the less is the 'v' in 0.5*m*v^2.

Besides, the electric power generation inside the aircraft is one of the most efficient systems known to man. They try to avoid any extra power transmission mechanism by drawing the energy directly off the shaft and hence decreasing energy lost in transmission. So the most efficient way of increasing electrical power in a plane is to increase the power generated by you engine. There are no 2 ways to that until Newton's second law of motion is disproved.

P.S. One could argue, look at the hybrid cars/buses/trucks. They generate electric energy when they brake. One could argue the APU on a plane could work on the same principle. However. for how much time have you seen the air brakes deployed on a plane per sortie. The energy saved during that time would hardly be worth carrying the APU around.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Indranil » 06 May 2011 22:18

NRao wrote:
SaiK,

I have been saying this for eons.

Specially in the area of AESA, there is NO one there that comes close to the US.

So, what the crap are Indians doing balle, balle about when FR/EU = US v2?

FR needs a cool billion dollars and some 9 more years to catch up with what HAS been production technologies of the US in the area of AESA!!!! EF is even further down the stream. In the area of AESA forget it. 2025 is perhaps the earliest India will see something worth it - by that time the US will be on v9. (let me get hold of an article of how far ahead the US IS - they have build conformal AESA that are STRUCTURAL components for a F-18 - granted in the lab right now. And we are still counting the number of T/R on a French radar? And are thrilled with that? Imagine when France comes out - IF they get a billion dollar fund - with whatever in 2020, the US by then will HAVE F-18s whose body parts will be AESAs - AESA radar modules taking the load of a F-18 in full flight!!! IT IS there today!!)

On ToT.

* What is to prevent France from maintaining two sets of code/APIs? Do we REALLY expect them to part with ALL their code? Crap. I do not believe it for a second. Granted that is my opinion.

* EF. India NEEDS research methodologies and data. unless the EF can be Indianized it will be useless in the long run. Sharing this plane with EU for the NEXT 40 years is a horrendous thought. A nation that is expected to have 2/3/4 largest eco and having 200(??) (20% of her AF) where she has no control over? Not my cup of tea.

I do not want to get into why the US products are better - their planes are OUT. But the debate of what the FR/EU has to provide needs to continue. And, very unfortunately the only competitor is the US. ????

+1. This is indeed my stand.

I am not pitching for any other plane. Indeed, Rafale/EF will provide additional capability to us. But I don't understand the gung-ho about what EF/Rafale would bring to India in design-tech. The only tech we will get is fabrication-tech. When the Def-minister has himself gone on record about this, then why do we continue to hope?!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 06 May 2011 22:23

AESA is not end of this world; you guys seriously need to see things in perspective a big military purchase is not a usual trip to sabzi mandi where one goes and fondles the tomatoes and picks the one which are nice and firm. MMRCA is supposed to serve the IAF for at least next 3 decades and obviously will shoulder the responsiblity of delivering nukes alongside the M2Ks and Su-30 MKI , anyone who thinks that Unkil's AC fit the bill is high on the unmentionable stuff; and yes you don't need to know a zilch about AESA to come to that conclusion.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 06 May 2011 22:49

NRao wrote:Specially in the area of AESA, there is NO one there that comes close to the US.

May be but what good is that to India ? Was their best even on sale ?

FR needs a cool billion dollars and some 9 more years to catch up with what HAS been production technologies of the US in the area of AESA!!!! EF is even further down the stream. In the area of AESA forget it. 2025 is perhaps the earliest India will see something worth it - by that time the US will be on v9. (let me get hold of an article of how far ahead the US IS - they have build conformal AESA that are STRUCTURAL components for a F-18 - granted in the lab right now. And we are still counting the number of T/R on a French radar? And are thrilled with that? Imagine when France comes out - IF they get a billion dollar fund - with whatever in 2020, the US by then will HAVE F-18s whose body parts will be AESAs - AESA radar modules taking the load of a F-18 in full flight!!! IT IS there today!!)

Lets be specifc here all that talk about generation leap in technology is fine and dandy the relevant question at the end of it is how good is the SH/Viper when compared to Rafale or the Typhoon also how good is the APG-79 on board the SH on offer to India as comapred to the RBE2 or CaptorE ? Are the plus points of American radar strong enough to make up for the deficiencies of the platform in other areas (payload/range and kinematic performance) also I don't see why we need to talk about the stuff which Northrop or Raytheon have been working on of late in their labs which are yet to even see service in Unkil's AF.


On ToT.

* What is to prevent France from maintaining two sets of code/APIs? Do we REALLY expect them to part with ALL their code? Crap. I do not believe it for a second. Granted that is my opinion.

* EF. India NEEDS research methodologies and data. unless the EF can be Indianized it will be useless in the long run. Sharing this plane with EU for the NEXT 40 years is a horrendous thought. A nation that is expected to have 2/3/4 largest eco and having 200(??) (20% of her AF) where she has no control over? Not my cup of tea.

I do not want to get into why the US products are better - their planes are OUT. But the debate of what the FR/EU has to provide needs to continue. And, very unfortunately the only competitor is the US. ????

Huh as if Unkil was providing ToT for it's stuff; at least the Euro birds will not be subjected to shenanigans like CISMOA and EUMA.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Rakesh » 06 May 2011 23:05

NRao Saar, no one is discounting that the US leads in AESA technology. But how much of it is the US really willing to part with? The down graded AESA radar, which very well could have been (we don’t know that for sure either) more powerful the RBE2 AESA or Captor-E, on offer with the Super Hornet came with so many monitoring strings that it just was not worth the risk. Ashley Saar talks about India buying a plane and not a relationship, but I am sorry to say that relationship was a one-sided one and that is not something the GOI wants to get into. We are SDREs and we will have to live with the poor man’s version of AESA. I don’t mean to sound jingoistic, but we will have to fight with what we have and what we can afford without strings. Unkil can keep and continue developing his AESA. This is reality and not Unkil enticing us with technology that we can only see, but not touch.

Israel bars AESA radar export to India
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/01/11/351666/israel-bars-aesa-radar-export-to-india.html

Unkil told Israel what to do and Israel obeyed. Now what is the guarantee that Unkil is not going to shaft us again like this? With Rakhi Sawant or TunTun, the risk of this happening was a certainty.

Negi: Good Post!

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Viv S » 06 May 2011 23:06

NRao wrote:
Viv S wrote:
Why? Forgetting the fact that irdw article seems to be poorly thought out and amateurishly written, three of the six points made deal with the unwillingness of the US to share technology - not something that the EF consortium can be accused of, with the offer of partnership and so on. The other points made - 'failure on technical grounds', 'chinese angle' aren't applicable either and it remains to be seen if 'logistical and infrastructure problems' come into play.


SaiK,

I have been saying this for eons.

Specially in the area of AESA, there is NO one there that comes close to the US.


Err... was that post for me or SaiK?

FR needs a cool billion dollars and some 9 more years to catch up with what HAS been production technologies of the US in the area of AESA!!!! EF is even further down the stream. In the area of AESA forget it. 2025 is perhaps the earliest India will see something worth it - by that time the US will be on v9. (let me get hold of an article of how far ahead the US IS - they have build conformal AESA that are STRUCTURAL components for a F-18 - granted in the lab right now.


Would India have gotten full access (forget ToT) to the next generation AESAs in service or development? The F-22 has been denied to Japan and Australia despite a similar Chinese aircraft being a future threat. The ALQ-99 jammer is still not available for export - the RAAF got a 'Growler-Lite' variant.

And we are still counting the number of T/R on a French radar? And are thrilled with that? Imagine when France comes out - IF they get a billion dollar fund - with whatever in 2020, the US by then will HAVE F-18s whose body parts will be AESAs - AESA radar modules taking the load of a F-18 in full flight!!! IT IS there today!!)


In 2020, the IAF will probably have aircraft with L-band AESAs integrated into the airframe as well (PAK-FA).

* EF. India NEEDS research methodologies and data. unless the EF can be Indianized it will be useless in the long run. Sharing this plane with EU for the NEXT 40 years is a horrendous thought. A nation that is expected to have 2/3/4 largest eco and having 200(??) (20% of her AF) where she has no control over? Not my cup of tea.


Regardless of how the future pans out, I doubt you can call the EF useless, even in the long run. The overall EF package should India opt for it, allows far more participation than any of its competitors including the Americans. And 20% of our fleet was bound to end up 'outside of our control'(?) ever since the MRCA contract was released.

I do not want to get into why the US products are better - their planes are OUT. But the debate of what the FR/EU has to provide needs to continue. And, very unfortunately the only competitor is the US. ????


Which is why the military DOES opt for US products when it suits it - C-17, C-130, P-8.. probably the Chinook and Apache, and possibly the F-35C.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 06 May 2011 23:17

(nrao's response)it does not matter, you can take it all viv s..however..

1. Point is, on the AESA front, if France is 9 years lagging, then DRDO perhaps is not lagging very much beyond 9 year as well, going by the r&d we are showing on GaN. If so, why not go ahead get a plain simple PESA radar, then do get the source code for doing a joint or solo venture on GaN based AESA radar with the MMRCA winner? bang for the buck here for us!

2. On the external drag-fuel tank point, I was looking at medium combat range requirements and design a medium combat ranged a/c for the specification all tucked in rather external. All those external fuel is beyond the medium role specifications, imo. So, question would be if Rafale really qualifies to be in a medium ranged (what ever that spec says), without the fuel tanks? Does EF has a better range or Rafale without the external tanks? [assumption here is medium - has range specific requirements]

We are talking next 40-50 years, DRDO/LRDE would not be keeping quite. I am sure a home grown GaN AESA would be out along the same lines as Eu does. <<<-

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby NRao » 07 May 2011 03:05

Was their best even on sale ?


Depends on what you mean by "on sale". Yes. Provided India signed whatever those acronyms were they were on sale. BUT, what was never possible is the ToT of the higher techs. That no one gets and that was open source.

However, that is NOT my point - as I stated the argument what-if with US planes is worthless at this point.

The point I am trying to make is that India will get what is equivalent to v2 of US technologies. And, you can see it on this board too - most seem to be thrilled counting T/R modules. When the Russian stuff came out the same story. Now that the Rafale/Thale stuff is out, again the same story.

Just what are people thrilled about I am trying to understand.

I can understand the reluctance to sign off on agreements that do not make any sense to the IAF or MoD or GoI. That is just, perfectly fine. No problems there.

OK. I understand that the French / EU would not make India sign off on a dotted line. Great. But, what is India getting that makes this a point to be so delighted about? Outside of filling the quota - and that is of great importance, no doubt - what are these two planes bringing to the table? I have argued and will continue to argue that the AMCA is FAR more important than these two.

Point is, on the AESA front, if France is 9 years lagging, then DRDO perhaps is not lagging very much beyond 9 year as well, going by the r&d we are showing on GaN. If so, why not go ahead get a plain simple PESA radar, then do get the source code for doing a joint or solo venture on GaN based AESA radar with the MMRCA winner? bang for the buck here for us!


Sure.

When and what cost? Please put all these on a time-line and place a dollar figure next to it. (And, just for kicks, then tell me where the US will be at the end of that time-line.)

Rafale F3, I recall, sort of muddled into existence. There were enough reports that IF India did not select either the EF or Rafale that either ones principles could die - meaning they will have to morph into doing something else. I would not be surprised if the French use India the same way Russia is using India - attempted cash cow. Think about it. France has absolutely no need for a F4 Rafale. US walks out A'stan. Libya is solved. Where do they go? The only real need for air-crafts (or arms) are countries around China. That is it. Britain needs none of these. Germany needs none. Italy, Spain? Crap. They ALL want to preserve their own technical capabilities. IF they give the best to India where will they go? To India? Buy AMCA from India? That is what will happen IF the decide to give the best of their stuff to India. Which is why I do not see it happening. This is NOT a knock on them. It is what they have to do to survive.

Now coming back to the IAF decision. It is fine, nothing wrong with what the IAF has done. It is my humble opinion that the IAF knows the end game, what they want and what they will probably get. And, I am fairly confident that unlike most BRiets, the IAF is not counting those T/R modules and jumping up and down - outside of that they can fill the number of squads with a decent plane and on time.

Would India have gotten full access (forget ToT) to the next generation AESAs in service or development?


NO. The US said that from day one.

However, what are the FR/Eu offering that is so thrilling. It is just about the same tech that the US was offering.

For India to get what is latest US verion (as in 2011), India will have to wait till 2025 or so. Wait. SO will France have to wait. So will EADS.


Huh as if Unkil was providing ToT for it's stuff; at least the Euro birds will not be subjected to shenanigans like CISMOA and EUMA.


I would advice patience. Let us see how much they are willing to part with.

BTW, ToT is not my concern. Partnership is research and the like.


More l8r.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby negi » 07 May 2011 04:18

NRao wrote:Depends on what you mean by "on sale". Yes. Provided India signed whatever those acronyms were they were on sale. BUT, what was never possible is the ToT of the higher techs. That no one gets and that was open source.

By sale I meant the stuff which US companies brought to the table i.e. F-16 and the F-18SH it's as simple as that ; it is pointless to make a strong argument based on mere specualtions/hope as to what US could have offered us.

The point I am trying to make is that India will get what is equivalent to v2 of US technologies.

May be in absolute sense you are right, but hey V2 of what, APG-77/85 or something earth shattering which is still in works in labs of Raytheon/NG ? My point is how can you compare what Euros 'offered' with something Americans never even brought to the table.

And, you can see it on this board too - most seem to be thrilled counting T/R modules. When the Russian stuff came out the same story. Now that the Rafale/Thale stuff is out, again the same story.

What is wrong with that ? To keep it short; boys would be boys. :)


OK. I understand that the French / EU would not make India sign off on a dotted line. Great. But, what is India getting that makes this a point to be so delighted about? Outside of filling the quota - and that is of great importance, no doubt - what are these two planes bringing to the table? I have argued and will continue to argue that the AMCA is FAR more important than these two.

Just the fact that things are moving as far as the MMRCA tender is concerned is enough to make us happy; personally the fact that cranky Unkil's stuff did not make it to the final round gives me immense pleasure.

Rafale F3, I recall, sort of muddled into existence. There were enough reports that IF India did not select either the EF or Rafale that either ones principles could die - meaning they will have to morph into doing something else. I would not be surprised if the French use India the same way Russia is using India - attempted cash cow. Think about it. France has absolutely no need for a F4 Rafale. US walks out A'stan. Libya is solved. Where do they go? The only real need for air-crafts (or arms) are countries around China. That is it. Britain needs none of these. Germany needs none. Italy, Spain? Crap. They ALL want to preserve their own technical capabilities. IF they give the best to India where will they go? To India? Buy AMCA from India? That is what will happen IF the decide to give the best of their stuff to India. Which is why I do not see it happening. This is NOT a knock on them. It is what they have to do to survive.

Firstly India will never get what it 'needs' out of the box from any foreign supplier it will have to make do with jugaad until LCA's success is built upon and AMCA materializes; also one cannot be out in the arms market and expect to get a top of the line fighter for peanuts, as far as India's defense market is concerned everyone is out there to take a piece of that cake so I don't see how does it matter if it is the French/US/RU or Israel ?

I don't see your point , so what if Rafale does not have as many customers as the F-16 or even the F-18SH ? This is not a commercial commodity like a car/suv where one has to take such stuff into consideration.


NO. The US said that from day one.

However, what are the FR/Eu offering that is so thrilling. It is just about the same tech that the US was offering.

It's all 'relative' ; the benchmark is our existing fleet and obviously what our neighbours can field in next 2-3 decades.


I would advice patience. Let us see how much they are willing to part with.

BTW, ToT is not my concern. Partnership is research and the like.

Boss I am least bothered about ToT , at this point in time IAF needs an AC which can hold on it's own against anything what Mofos on either side of the border can field in next 2-3 decades and as well as create a mushroom cloud over their territory if need be. If I were to be charitable then I would just say Unkil's toys would have cramped our style. :twisted:

Btw coming to research , I frankly don't see the relation this is sounding akin to those who are whining as to why did not we buy Unkil's planes as US is our 'strategic' ally ; without even knowing what an ally or strategic means. Unkil is still very cautious as to what areas and items it can open up for research with India. In this case are you by any chnace referring to research in AESA , military Radars etc ? If yes I have to say you are being too optimistic ; Munna#1 and Munna#2 have been crying for access to the same for decades but to no avail. Last I checked their wails are even heard in aviation fora all over the www :rotfl:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby jaladipc » 07 May 2011 06:02

Rakesh wrote:NRao Saar, no one is discounting that the US leads in AESA technology. But how much of it is the US really willing to part with? The down graded AESA radar, which very well could have been (we don’t know that for sure either) more powerful the RBE2 AESA or Captor-E, on offer with the Super Hornet came with so many monitoring strings that it just was not worth the risk. Ashley Saar talks about India buying a plane and not a relationship, but I am sorry to say that relationship was a one-sided one and that is not something the GOI wants to get into. We are SDREs and we will have to live with the poor man’s version of AESA. I don’t mean to sound jingoistic, but we will have to fight with what we have and what we can afford without strings. Unkil can keep and continue developing his AESA. This is reality and not Unkil enticing us with technology that we can only see, but not touch.

Israel bars AESA radar export to India
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/01/11/351666/israel-bars-aesa-radar-export-to-india.html

Unkil told Israel what to do and Israel obeyed. Now what is the guarantee that Unkil is not going to shaft us again like this? With Rakhi Sawant or TunTun, the risk of this happening was a certainty.

Negi: Good Post!


Looks like Unkil is not interested in doing business with India. He is throwing dust in his own plate meal of rice and sambar.There are more than $10 billion worth of different deals like additional C-30 and C-17 and P-8I,.....
There is every alternative to the stuff offered by unkil,if not superior a bit notch down or comparative versions.Unkil just proving himself how unreliable he can be times and again.
This is the same attitude I have been expecting from him,so that the dothi wallahs will spit the paan and sweet their musharaaf off either by trying to build everything locally with more public-private partnerships and couple of more years as extra gestation periods.
Afterall we are done with unkil too. We got our one two threee deal in hand and importing yalloowww cake to run our reactors with high LF.We aren`t either starved of unkils nuuke tech.Whether we give him business or not, he will still donate the same toys to TTP and have the same trade with chinks. Whom are we kidding here?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Juggi G » 07 May 2011 06:23


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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Juggi G » 07 May 2011 06:31

Boeing's Last Advertisement for MMRCA, FA-18 feat. IAF Su-30MKI

Image

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Juggi G » 07 May 2011 06:37


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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby aditya.agd » 07 May 2011 08:15

American foreign policy needs to be cautiously handled. Pls do not buy American weapons because then u will be bombed one day. They have bombed every country to which they supplied weapons to. :rotfl:

Stay away from Unkil as far as you can. Transports are ok. They can deactivate them. Buy just few transports from them so that they are happy. Bakshish. :rotfl:

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby kmkraoind » 07 May 2011 16:20

Sorry if posted earlier. Links have been copied from Keypub forum.

Image

Image


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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 07 May 2011 18:32

Besides the cost, there is an increasing feeling that EF2K will give more than we can take. This is going to be really exciting race ever - I am sure it is a mother of all short list, and the mother of all fighter will win!

EF2K++
Rafale+
;)

=================

so, going further DPP is going to play important role in the selection of the final a/c:

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/current-affairs/aircraft-deal-nothing-wrongselection-firms-says-iaf_539872.html
The IAF tender mandates that the companies should offer a weapons package including anti-radiation missile while delivering the aircraft.



SEAD SEAD SEAD! which one is better - Rafale or EF2K?

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manoba » 07 May 2011 20:20

Exactly, Tiffy has much to offer.

As I said few pages earlier, make the two rams clash at each other and drink the blood out of it.

The French perfectionism is notoriously famous. Rafale is sexy, more mature and offers three different flavors: single, twin-seater and naval, which are already inducted into services. The Radar is decent and armaments are wide range.

The EF is not as mature as Rafale and the radar development is literally limping. But still, it has a good engine, fresh airframe and will hopefully not hit a technological dead-end for the projected 40 years. Unlike Rafale, the problems that Tiffy encountered are dissected publicly (like our own LCA) in respective countries' media, or at least in Germany and UK. So, we know for sure what's really going on with EF. Black-box vs white-box!

And there is a huge opportunity for both public and private sectors in maturing Tiffy's naval, radar and other developments, as India will become fifth partner of the consortium.

Interesting times ahead! It really is a mother of all short-lists.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ranjithnath » 07 May 2011 20:22

^^katrina hands down for SEAD !!but will IAF insist on getting a dedicated standoff fire and forget ARM integrated on rafale??ALARM maybe??

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 07 May 2011 20:29

I read somewhere EF will not field alarm but depend on the captor-E radar itself jamming radars....but I suppose destroying a radar physically has its own higher value.

mounting a arm seeker on AASM / Paveway4 for short range work and on Scalp/StormShadow for long range work seems like a no brainer, but perhaps a IIR seeker is even better and will not get fooled by RF decoys unless the image map also matches

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ranjithnath » 07 May 2011 20:36

but isnt tiffy already fielding AGM 88??and how close does the aircraft be to jam other radars??

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 07 May 2011 21:12

Italy seems to have no plans or desire to fund a A2G suite for EF

http://cencio4.wordpress.com/2011/02/13 ... r-typhoon/

Under Tranche 3A, by 2013, Italy will receive 21 Typhoons bringing the total to 95 (comprising 27 Trance 1 and 47 Tranche 2 examples). The aircraft will be used in the air superiority role, as Italy, due to the cost associated with the envisaged upgrades required by the integration of the air-to-ground weapons, has always been skeptical about a multi-role Eurofighter. At the end of 2008, answering some questions about the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter), Gen. Vincenzo Camporini, former ItAF Chief of Staff, current Defence Chief of Staff, affirmed that: “There’s no competition or conflict between the JSF and the Eurofighter. The Eurofighter was designed for the Air Defence, a role that the aircraft is perfectly able to fulfil, but it can’t perform the attack role in an economically sustainable manner”. That vision hasn’t changed with the Tranche 3 contract signed in July 2009

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 07 May 2011 21:15

main problem for EF as A2G seems 3 of the 4 will go for JSF - uk, italy and spain due to being jsf partners, or munnas, or both or needing naval fighters on the side. the JSF was sold as a 'affordable' platform but ofcourse will end up even more expensive than todays EF, which no doubt would also get costlier per unit if A2G costs were brought in. american weapons are produced in bulk volumes and generally cheaper...

their other big customer KSA has also ordered around 75 of latest F-15 model which will feature aesa radars and all the A2G weapons americans produce. so they would not have much incentive to fund EF A2G either, but might lay out of some money for captor-E for H&D purposes since UAe already has it on block60 falcons.

without saudi or indian money, imo captor-e will be a stillborn effort. for the low level of threats they face, the current ceaser radar is plenty enough.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby manum » 07 May 2011 21:27

wait a sec if they don't want to develop EF or commit to it then why they want still to be associated with it...I mean why not part their ways and give it to India, If they are seeing their will power dwindling wrt EF.

I mean in band members or any association, Member has to give up if its found the member is useless with respect to the main label, though it has its price given if member is founder or copyright holder...So I am hoping EF knows what are things working against it for selection and it offers a suitable deal to India to counter the demerits...
It should be win win situation of keeping EF alive and reaping its benefits...while India getting what it really wants.

Its gonna get interesting, because I am not hearing EF creating any sound these days...Its all Hail Katrina...

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby ranjithnath » 07 May 2011 21:30

^^+1 to singhajit.so ineffect invitation to become a euroconsortium member is actually a double edged sword.it will be ultimately indian taxpayers money that will pay for A2F ,captor e etc if tiffy is chosen.also the MLU's 15 years down the line will also have its own problems with uk,spain,italy having JSF in their kitty will drag their feet.OTOH katrina's is fully developed with regards to its A2G and considering the fact that it will be the only fighter aicraft operated by the french,the upgrades and MLU's will be easier and mostly funded by them.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby Singha » 07 May 2011 21:35

keeping aside the respective planes or this deal itself , the coveted prize we are after in the 10-15 yr time frame is minority ownership stakes in cos like dassault , snecma, euroradar, thales, mtu, eurojet, mbda, dcn, fincantieri, finnmeccanica, hispano suiza, atlas elektronik, renk, KMW etc. now that raw power - owning a share of the invaluable calling cards of the high table. now kala bandars like us are viewed as not fit for the gora bandars table...for that to change - their economic tempo and heft vs India has to continue the current slide (our relative national power continues to increase), public support for costly defence pgms continues to slide vs funding socialist welfare state (is happening and steep cutbacks in defence is happening and sure to happen more) and india also has more to contribute now including 'skilled manpower' for engg and test centers in india. either they can bring us into the tent as honorary gora bandars and hitch a ride on our growth train at least risk (because we are not out to punish them and oust them (yet) as the chinese are) OR they can continue to keep us out and get a little money here and there after hard fights with russian, israeli and american cos. co-opting us into their cause is perhaps best for the long term health of their armaments industries.

make no mistake the chinese are after it too - including in cos like GE, GM , sikorsky and honeywell.

from strategic POV whichever of the two offers us a seat inside the big tent and provides better movie, popcorn and chicken nuggets is going to win.

with american cos they offered us a nice seat *outside* the tent and told us to eat the plentiful food provided therein but no access to the kitchen or the superior cuisine enjoyed by the patrons who are inside.
Last edited by Singha on 07 May 2011 21:45, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India selects Typhoon and Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Postby SaiK » 07 May 2011 21:41

oh yeah.. it is much more easy for Unkill to control EADS rather Dassault, when it comes to sales to chippanda.

one strategy thing we have to make sure, every time we project one a/c against the other, we try to see the best possible offer they can provide, and not over weigh on what is on the cards before the selections actually happens. It kind of becomes subliminal thing that starts working on, and at the end, the winner actually chews the tax payer moolah.

it is better to keep challenging the a/c that really we want for IAF, that way we can chew as much as possible, where we establish a mutual chew.

---

On the AESA, the T/R module power matters for long range role.


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