2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

[chaanakya]

Hamaoka nuclear reactor completely shut down

SHIZUOKA (Kyodo) -- The operator of Japan's Hamaoka nuclear power plant finished work Saturday to stop atomic fission at its last active reactor toward a full shutdown of the plant on the Pacific, it said.

Chubu Electric Power Co. decided to shut down the plant built in Shizuoka Prefecture on an active major fault line following an unprecedented request by the government due to fears of a large earthquake possibly hitting the area.

The utility began putting control rods into the core of the No. 5 reactor earlier in the day to bring the plant in Omaezaki, Shizuoka Prefecture, to a complete shutdown.

The No. 4 reactor, the other unit which was operating, was already suspended Friday. The Nos. 1 and 2 reactors have already been shut down for decommissioning, while its No. 3 reactor was suspended for regular checkups.

The operator said it hopes to resume the plant soon after taking measures to block quake-triggered tsunami waves but Gov. Heita Kawakatsu remains cautious about the idea.

[chaanakya]

Govt OK's nuclear crisis redress plan / 9 utilities may aid TEPCO's compensation
The Yomiuri Shimbun

The government on Friday officially approved a framework for compensating people affected by the ongoing nuclear crisis at Tokyo Electric Power Co.'s Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant, in a scheme that would require nine other utilities to make contributions that could be used for compensation.

The framework would place TEPCO under effective state control.

Under the framework, TEPCO would pay compensation to people affected by the disaster at the Fukushima plant under the support of a new body to be established by the government--tentatively called the "nuclear power plant compensation institution." TEPCO would repay the envisaged institution out of its yearly profits.

While the framework does not set an upper limit on compensation payments to be made by the utility, it stipulates the institution would keep the firm solvent until it finishes making payments .

The decision to adopt the compensation framework was made at a meeting of concerned Cabinet ministers.

The framework also states that power companies that operate nuclear plants would be obliged to contribute to the new institution. Eight other power companies--excluding Okinawa Electric Power Co., which does not have a nuclear plant--and Japan Atomic Power Co. would also be required to contribute.

Taking into account public backlash over an expected rise in electricity bills, the basic position for assisting TEPCO was changed from "minimizing financial burdens" in an earlier draft to "minimizing the people's burden."

In addition, the government would monitor TEPCO's streamlining efforts, such as selling assets and cutting payroll. The government also would allocate no-interest bonds to the institution, which could be cashed if necessary.

"This is not a bailout for TEPCO, it is so we can properly pay compensation," Economy, Trade and Industry Minister Banri Kaieda said. He said the government would seek quick passage of related bills through the Diet, saying they would be submitted "as soon as possible."

Meanwhile, TEPCO President Masataka Shimizu said, "While we will receive government support under the framework, we will continue to prepare to make fair and swift payments to victims."

===

Edano hopes for debt waiver

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano on Friday expressed his hope that financial institutions would partially waive loans extended to TEPCO before the March 11 earthquake.

During the morning press conference, Edano said it would be impossible to get the public on board regarding an injection of public funds to TEPCO if creditors offer no debt forgiveness.

Edano answered a question made in relation to the framework for compensation for damage inflicted by the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant accident, which was officially announced by the government earlier in the day. At the same time Edano indicated that a partial waiving of debts by the institutions is an important prerequisite for injection of public funds into TEPCO.

"It is a problem of TEPCO asking the financial institutions for cooperation to give up some of the loans and whether the institutions would cooperate or not. Based on the results of such efforts, we will judge whether the plan [the government has] decided on at this time will be carried out or if a different plan needs to be explored," Edano said.

[GuruPrabhu]

^^^ Looks like Japan has formulated a good solution. Now, what will Prof. Busby rant about?

It is very very unfair. Japan should not take away Busby-ji's talking points.

[chaanakya]

TEPCO concealed radiation data before explosion at No. 3 reactor
2011/05/14

The Asahi Shimbun obtained a 100-page internal TEPCO report containing minute-to-minute data on radiation levels at the plant as well as pressure and water levels inside the No. 3 reactor from March 11 to April 30.

The data has never been released by the company that operates the stricken plant.

The unpublished information shows that at 1:17 p.m. on March 13, 300 millisieverts of radiation per hour was detected inside a double-entry door at the No. 3 reactor building. At 2:31 p.m., the radiation level was measured at 300 millisieverts or higher per hour to the north of the door.

Both levels were well above the upper limit of 250 millisieverts for an entire year under the plant's safety standards for workers. But the workers who were trying to bring the situation under control at the plant were not informed of the levels.

When the Great East Japan Earthquake struck on March 11, the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 3 reactors all automatically shut down. But the tsunami crippled the emergency generators, leading to a total power failure that prevented the cooling systems from functioning.

The TEPCO data also showed high levels of hydrogen may be emitting from the damaged core of the No. 3 reactor on March 13, when TEPCO started injecting seawater to cool the reactor.

The following day around 11 a.m., a hydrogen explosion destroyed the upper part of the No. 3 reactor building. Seven TEPCO workers were injured in the blast.

TEPCO's public relations department said the company has informed the public that significant levels of radiation have been detected at the plant, but it disclose specific data after a thorough review of the figures is completed.

Keiji Miyazaki, professor emeritus of nuclear reactor engineering at Osaka University, criticized TEPCO's policy.

He said such important data should be immediately released to ensure the safety of the public and workers at the plant, especially in an emergency like the Fukushima nuclear accident.

Miyazaki said TEPCO's decision to conceal the data must be scrutinized.

Failure to release radiation data in the early stages of the crisis is said to have delayed the evacuations of communities near the plant.

Kiyoshi Sakurai, another nuclear power expert, said a thorough examination is needed not only on TEPCO's unpublished data, but also verbal communications of those involved, instructions issued by the central government and TEPCO, and the communication structure between management and workers at the plant.

[Theo_Fidel]

Bah! Any criticism of Nuclear is labeled anti-national and dismissed. If anyone has got it wrong it w/ shaky science it is the nuclear industry. After all Fukushima was supposed to be a one in 10 million years thing right. Yet here we are. Not one of these defenders can stand on the nuclear industries record. Why don't we go by actual failure rate and actual consequences of disaster.

2 months ago this whole lot was claiming there was no way there could be a melt down in core. All kinds of ridicule was flung around. Even I thought it was impossible and did not say anything. Yet here we stand again. How did all the 'experts' get that wrong as well.

I remember when long term evacuation was brought up. Again round after round of ridicule.

And what about when the possibility that this might rate with Chernobyl was brought up. Hoots of laughter.

As long as the 'experts' continue getting it wrong how about some 'discredit' on their end as well. Busby sounds like a fool, but I've been wrong before. It too early to write off any possibility.

[amit]

Bah! Any criticism of Nuclear is labeled anti-national and dismissed. If anyone has got it wrong it w/ shaky science it is the nuclear industry. After all Fukushima was supposed to be a one in 10 million years thing right. Yet here we are. Not one of these defenders can stand on the nuclear industries record. Why don't we go by actual failure rate and actual consequences of disaster.

So Theo,

This is as good a place as any to make known your stand. Should India dismantle the nuclear industry and dissolve BARC?

After all you say: Not one of these defenders can stand on the nuclear industries record. Why don't we go by actual failure rate and actual consequences of disaster

Going by the actual failure record what do you think India should do, surely a similar disaster can strike any current nuclear plant in operation in India, let alone future ones that may or may not be built?

[chaanakya]

Must have died of over stress.

Pure speculation on your part

However , it must be pointed out that TEPCO followed dubious practice of using workers at high price without informing them where they are going to work. This has been recorded in this thread previously. Of course , they would not have given dosimeters as they were in short supply.

Dosimeters were in short supply initially but are they now? Do you know for sure? {yeah I know that for sure , read previous post, but do you point to a news that says they have no shortages of dosimeters, perhaps you know more about supply side management with Japanese JIT working all across and unless you show contrary data, your's is just a .....}

It's interesting the way you construct your post but I understand the reason for it.

After almost three months at last news of a death due to Fukushima where by now there should have been thousands dead (according to herrows like Busby). But the news categorically states that the death was in no way due to radiation. So you speculate its due to over stress without even knowing anything about the man save his age? Why over stress? Was it because you think he was forced to enter the plant against his will? Maybe he's a patriotic Japanese {not may be , he was a patriotic japanese, I have no doubt, do you have one?}who volunteered to be there as a part of his national duty?

And then you very interestingly put in an anecdote of what had supposed to have happened according to some media report in the early stages of this tragedy.

So you link up a death which occurred now to what was supposed to have happened before {do you have another explanation, do offer them here rather than speaking on my point ....}

Do you have any evidence that this unfortunate man who died went there without sufficient information about the risk and did not have a dosimeter?{all in due time amit, have patience , will get there as well as more details emerge.}

I must say this is almost Busby-esque analysis. {thanks for using the word almost. That shows that still you are able to notice something different despite serious lack of comprehension on display here}

Why not just post the news and let the readers decide for themselves of what to make of it?

And finally....

Why don't you follow this yourself and say what you make of the news. I mentioned what I thought. It not read by me in isolation. You should post your point of what you make of this post rather than commenting on my points.

[Theo_Fidel]

This is as good a place as any to make known your stand. Should India dismantle the nuclear industry and dissolve BARC?

What kind of foolish comment is this. Go back and read before speaking. We are not in Thermopylae.

[amit]

And finally....

Why don't you follow this yourself and say what you make of the news. I mentioned what I thought. It not read by me in isolation. You should post your point of what you make of this post rather than commenting on my points.

Why should I? Your the one who posted the news and added your comments. What do you want me to do? Overlook your comments? Sorry pal in case you should post in some private email grouping.

But I'll tell you what I think in a more broader perspective. I feel the entire Fukushima saga shows to two things:

a) The resilience of the Japanese in getting up from a disaster which would have flattened most countries. Comparisons are in order to the chaos which prevailed in the US after the Katrina hurricane several years ago. Bad mouthing the Japanese and calling them stupid here doesn't change that.

b) It shows the inherent robustness of nuclear reactors. Here's a Gen 1 nuclear reactor, more than 40 years old, rocked by a earthquake 7 times larger than its design tolerance limits, hit by a giant tsunami and with a partial nuclear meltdown (according to reports) yet not a single person died. And just to remind everyone a dam burst in the Fukushima prefecture just after the earthquake and swept away 1,800 homes, I supposed nobody died due to that? Should we ensure that nobody lives downstream from Tehri in the light of this, just as we should move from nuclear in the light of Fukushima and Chernobyl?

[amit]

What kind of foolish comment is this. Go back and read before speaking. We are not in Thermopylae.

Wow, now we need to resort to Greek mythology! :-0

But I don't understand why you think the question is foolish. If you really think the nuclear industry is so dangerous and potentially harmful for millions of Indians why aren't you ready to stick your neck out and say so?

[chaanakya]

Accurate data destroys optimistic TEPCO assessment, hampers cooling plan

2011/05/14

Accurate data shattered the overly optimistic assessment of Tokyo Electric Power Co. concerning the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant and raised doubts about the company's game plan for ending the crisis.

Measurements from a recently installed water gauge provided conclusive evidence that the condition of the No. 1 reactor at the plant was much more serious than TEPCO officials have acknowledged until now.

TEPCO officials admitted on May 12 that a "meltdown" had occurred in the No. 1 reactor. Fuel rods had melted, and the molten fuel accumulated and caused small cracks at the bottom of the reactor pressure container, they said.

Until now, TEPCO officials only said that fuel rods were partially damaged and compiled a work schedule in April for restoring a stable cooling system based on that assumption.

Despite being unable to obtain accurate measurements from gauges in the reactors damaged in the March 11 Great East Japan Earthquake, TEPCO officials still made those optimistic assumptions.

From immediately after the quake, the measurements from the water gauge at the No. 1 reactor showed very little change, casting doubt on the reliability of the instruments.

After workers entered the No. 1 reactor building and adjusted the water gauge, the data obtained showed water levels so low that the gauge was unable to measure it.

TEPCO officials concluded that water had accumulated in only about 20 percent of the volume of the No. 1 reactor's pressure container.

Other specialists had long warned that the situation at the No. 1 reactor was much more serious than the scenario that TEPCO officials were presenting.

At a news conference April 1, Shunichi Tanaka, a former vice chairman of the Japan Atomic Energy Commission, said all the fuel rods in the No. 1 reactor had melted, raising the possibility of damage to the pressure container.

TEPCO's latest measurements found the temperature of the pressure container was about 100 degrees. If the fuel rods had been exposed because of the low water level, the temperature should have been much higher. The only explanation is that the fuel rods melted, accumulated at the bottom of the pressure container and the melted fuel was cooled by the small volume of water at the bottom.

The No. 1 reactor is not the only one with problems. Small cracks have probably also developed at the bottom of the pressure containers of the No. 2 and No. 3 reactors.

Evidence of that possibility is the highly contaminated water found in the basements of the turbine buildings of the three reactors as well as underground trenches.

The contamination was likely caused by water leaking from the bottoms of the pressure containers of the three reactors.

TEPCO officials now admit that the measurements from the water gauges at the pressure containers in the No. 2 and No. 3 reactors are also unreliable.

While those water gauges will have to be repaired as soon as possible, TEPCO will also have to review its work schedule for cooling the reactors.

That will likely mean rethinking the plan to submerge the containment vessel of the No. 1 reactor in water to cool the pressure container within.

About 10,000 tons of water have already been pumped into the No. 1 reactor's pressure container, but about 3,000 tons of that water are unaccounted for. That likely means the water has leaked out of the containment vessel.

Moreover, if TEPCO continues to pump in water to the reactors to cool them, water contaminated with radiation will continue to leak out from the cracks at the bottoms of the pressure containers.

TEPCO officials have also not denied the possibility that melted fuel has leaked out of the pressure container. That would mean the volume of contaminated water will likely increase, making work in the reactor buildings much more difficult.

TEPCO's negligence and concealment is least of their problems but some of them are criminal in nature as well.
1. Design faults
2. Quality compromise
3.Cost cutting in safety areas
4.Lack of transparency in giving information during crisis
5.Lack of preparedness for the crisis
6.Dubious labour practices
7.inaccurate data
8.concealment of data and gravity of situation
9.No end in sight to the crisis and blundering along with so called high tech solutions.
10. Consumers and general public to pay for even when they are in least affected areas away from the disaster
11. Banks asked to waive off debts etc??


list is endless

[chaanakya]

Why don't you follow this yourself and say what you make of the news. I mentioned what I thought. It not read by me in isolation. You should post your point of what you make of this post rather than commenting on my points.

[/quote]

Because you have said so and have been asking others.

[amit]

Why don't you follow this yourself and say what you make of the news. I mentioned what I thought. It not read by me in isolation. You should post your point of what you make of this post rather than commenting on my points.

Because you have said so and have been asking others.

You just quoted yourself!

I said what I think, I'm never afraid to do that. See my post again.

But Chaanakya San, you haven't yet made know what is your key takeaway from all the research and reading into this, meaning what do you think is the best way forward for India in the nuclear sphere. Unless we can link that up, then what's the use of posting all this in Bharat Rakshak, na? This is not an academic exercise (I hope).

[chaanakya]

Indian Point gets fix list from NRC to prepare for crisis similar to Japan's

Entergy officials have said they are prepared to handle an earthquake or flood worse than any in the region's recorded history.

"We are not susceptible to events like those in Japan, but we prepare like we are," said Indian Point spokesman Jerry Nappi. "As part of that process, we will work with the NRC to make any needed enhancements found in the review."

Among the issues inspectors noted in the two 28-page reports are the following:

• At Indian Point 2, hydrogen containment devices, which are supposed to be tested every other year, haven't been tested for five years.

• Fire protection equipment in locations that are not "seismically designed," or protected from a quake.

• Inspectors identified potential vulnerabilities associated with seismic events.

• At Indian Point 3, not enough firefighting equipment if severe events included both reactors simultaneously.

• In on-site availability of submersible pumps and sandbags needed at certain flood levels.

• Carbon-dioxide tanks used for firefighting are not seismically qualified.

The NRC carried out the inspections after the March 11 earthquake and tsunami in Japan and the resulting damage to the Fukushima nuclear power plant.

[chaanakya]

[quote="chaanakya]
Why don't you follow this yourself and say what you make of the news. I mentioned what I thought. It not read by me in isolation. You should post your point of what you make of this post rather than commenting on my points.

Because you have said so and have been asking others.

You just quoted yourself!

I said what I think, I'm never afraid to do that. See my post again.

But Chaanakya San, you haven't yet made know what is your key takeaway from all the research and reading into this, meaning what do you think is the best way forward for India in the nuclear sphere. Unless we can link that up, then what's the use of posting all this in Bharat Rakshak, na? This is not an academic exercise (I hope).[/quote][/quote]

yeah , to surmount your comprehension crisis.

For my position you need to read all and follow what I have said through out this crisis. I have no time to respond for what has been stated many a times

[amit]

[quote="chaanakya]
Why don't you follow this yourself and say what you make of the news. I mentioned what I thought. It not read by me in isolation. You should post your point of what you make of this post rather than commenting on my points.

Because you have said so and have been asking others.

You just quoted yourself!

I said what I think, I'm never afraid to do that. See my post again.

But Chaanakya San, you haven't yet made know what is your key takeaway from all the research and reading into this, meaning what do you think is the best way forward for India in the nuclear sphere. Unless we can link that up, then what's the use of posting all this in Bharat Rakshak, na? This is not an academic exercise (I hope).

[/quote]

yeah , to surmount your comprehension crisis.

For my position you need to read all and follow what I have said through out this crisis. I have no time to respond for what has been stated many a times[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]



This is one of those lol moments which make BRF so enjoyable. Don't worry won't ask you again as you are unwilling to respond. I can only speculate as to why. And am sure a lot of other gentle readers will do the same.

[chaanakya]

[


This is one of those lol moments which make BRF so enjoyable. Don't worry won't ask you again as you are unwilling to respond. I can only speculate{that is all you have been doing along} as well as your "gentle readers" calling others' barking of Rottweilers as to why. And am sure a lot of other gentle readers will do the same.

[brihaspati]

Busby seems to have been a windfall! He has become the punchbag for all the frustrations of the self-appointed nuclear-power-bacaho andolan (NPBA)! But dear NPBA-ists, isnt it an over-reaction? Focusing too much on a single dubious opponent can mean a real lack of confidence on your own position.

India's nuclear weapons research and capabilities are a strategic necessity, and will continue to be so for some time, until Pakistan comes under Indian sovereignty and the PRC is cleaned up of its communist party. Every research and production facility in India dealing with the military side is of national importance. Civilian components should be protected in as much as they provide inputs to the military nuclear programme. Beyond that things have become really hazy about pushing for increasing scales of nuclear power generation.

You will win much greater support for your position, if you do not undertake such snide personal remarks against your opponents. It could be a better strategy to at least pretend to be genuinely concerned at their "concerns". If you choose to continue to bring in "rottweilers analogies" - even if covered by a logical excuse that really doesn't pass, or bring in completely unrelated but hoped to be pricking enough expressions like "Hindu rate of growth", or firing off with a flash against "posters who argue with smileys" (only applicable to hated posters but welcome for supporters), or dubbing published peer reviewed authors as "perfidious" while citing supposed counter-papers that trash such perfidies but which reveal theoretical speculations on "extremes of theoretical possibility" and refusing to tackle perfidies in the regular academic way, etc, you will only help your opponents agenda if any.

Carry on gentlemen, the more NPBA-giri shouts and shows its vicious fangs of comments, the more you will pushover the middle-roaders into the opposite camp. If your position has inherent merit, it is pushed better with verbal and linguistic restraint. But you seem to have set yourself against the reality of the political and social process of formation of opinions. If you carry on in this mode, you will force more people on to the other side, and a great service you would have done to India's core strategic needs.

[brihaspati]

The much admired "correct solution" by Japan gov, still seems to have not addressed the real question as pointed out in my earlier post - that ultimately it is the publci which will be asked to bear the entire load of compensation.

"Minimize public" burden - does not rule out the publci burden, what it will typically mean in financial terms is probably a lower annual burden - but which will be taken out by the financial institutions or the utility company over a longer term of cumulative interests.

"Financial institutions" should waive loans! Okay, but then they will recoup that cost from the public indirectly. Apparent lowering of rates can mean cumulative longer and larger amounts passed on to the public.

We can admire this only if we are cynically casual about using public money to protect and support our pet institutions regardless of the ultimate costs that redound on the people.

[chaanakya]

^^ B'ji, the financing part of the Scheme would bankrupt TEPCO, yet public would have to shell out substantial part of it.
"minimize public burden" is just a dressing up for the scheme to make it palatable to public.

The notion seems to be that though , somehow, public is liable, Govt and TEPCO is doing service by minimizing it. Ultimately , it will have impact on all aspects of economy and social life.

And we have seen , NPBA ( rhymes with NBA ) are very casual about public money.
Its multiple whammy for the public.

[GuruPrabhu]

This is one of those lol moments which make BRF so enjoyable. Don't worry won't ask you again as you are unwilling to respond. I can only speculate as to why. And am sure a lot of other gentle readers will do the same.

I will ask nicely. Chanakya-ji, Should BARC be shut down and dismantled?

I realize you are a busy person with no time for lengthy posts etc.

Kindly post simply a Y or an N and hit the "submit" button. Thanks in advance.

[chaanakya]

I will ask nicely. Chanakya-ji, Should BARC be shut down and dismantled?.

Do you know what BARC stands for? Is it on par with your NPPs??

[GuruPrabhu]

I will ask nicely. Chanakya-ji, Should BARC be shut down and dismantled?.

Do you know what BARC stands for? Is it on par with your NPPs??

It deals with more of that "toxic Pu" than any NPP.

But, sir-ji, you typed dozens of characters, instead of a Y or N. I am not deserving of so much of your precious time.

[chaanakya]

^^ so you mean Research Reactors== NPP ?? is that logic you are telling me?

[GuruPrabhu]

^^^ As Amit said, this is what makes BRF so much fun.

Rather than answer a simple question, the attempt to obfuscate by statements like "is that logic you are telling me?", is pure genius.

Forget it Chanakya-ji, I will not waste your precious time. It is better spent on C&P, boldface highlighting and blue font commentary. Over and out.

[chaanakya]

Contaminated nuke plant workers going back on job as safety regs go by wayside

Safety standards for workers at the tsunami-hit nuclear power plant in Fukushima Prefecture have been relaxed without any scrutiny, forcing workers to do their jobs without being completely decontaminated, it has emerged.

Workers who are struggling to get the Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO)-operated Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant under control as well as experts have expressed grave concern about possible health hazards.

Radiation levels on the premises of the power station remain high, with part of the ruins of its No. 3 reactor building -- badly damaged by a hydrogen explosion -- emitting 900 millisieverts of radiation per hour.

Safety regulations dictate that when it is estimated workers will be exposed to more than 1 millisievert of radiation per day at a nuclear power plant, companies contracted by the plant operator must submit a work plan specifying the anticipated radiation levels to the local labor standards inspection office, get a receipt stamp and submit a copy of the document to the plant operator.

Some contractors then hand copies of the document to their subcontractors as a special permit to perform the work.

An employee of one of the subcontractors at Fukushima plant said he worked there without such a special permit and was exposed to 1.3 millisieverts of radiation over a 2 1/2-hour period. Subsequent screening detected radioactive substances on the back of the employee's head and neck, as well as those of about 10 co-workers.

They washed with special shampoo at the nuclear crisis operations center about 20 kilometers away from the plant. However, three of them were unable to completely decontaminate themselves. They tried again at a TEPCO facility but failed to completely remove radioactive substances from their bodies. TEPCO subsequently issued a certificate specifying the areas of their bodies contaminated with radioactive material, and they returned to work.

In cases where radioactive substances are detected on workers' bodies, their employers are required to submit a report detailing the work they performed and how they were contaminated to the original contractor, which in turn must notify TEPCO.

However, the workers' subcontractor has neither submitted such a report to the original contractor nor been instructed by the contractor or TEPCO to do so. The employee has pointed out that the safety regulations have been eased without any scrutiny amid the ongoing crisis.

"Both TEPCO and the original contractor appear to be thinking it's natural that we're contaminated with radioactive substances, considering our working environment," he lamented.

"Many of us are eager to help get the plant under control, and think we can't avoid being contaminated. But frankly speaking, we're concerned," he added.

TEPCO said the certificate specifying the areas of workers' bodies contaminated is issued if high levels of radiation are detected during screening, but claimed that such workers are completely decontaminated before returning to work.

I am sure NPBA activists would be quick to show concern at such serious lapses in a "high Tech" industry rather than asking Y or N type answers.

[chaanakya]

Busby seems to have been a windfall! He has become the punchbag for all the frustrations of the self-appointed nuclear-power-bacaho andolan (NPBA)! But dear NPBA-ists, isnt it an over-reaction? Focusing too much on a single dubious opponent can mean a real lack of confidence on your own position.

Isn't it obvious, B'ji?

But then Mainstream Science has a history of resisting new ideas and hounding of those who propose.
Galileo and Copernicus jump out as two examples, not to say that Busby is in the same league though.

[harbans]

No sort of mass power generation is without risk. But what the world and India specifically cannot do without is mass power. India hardly has any option but to also go Nuclear. Initial reports all suggested that the Reactor survived the quake and it was back up systems that got sloshed by the Tsunami. However it looks the quake did do damage to the structure too. This definitely calls for a look into safety etc, but the call to not harness Nuclear power is a jump too far.

The first person to harness a sustained fire was probably burnt in it and called a devil, Galileo ws told to revoke his work. It was Science that tamed energy and power. While Chernobyl showed how not to manage Nuclear Plants, Fukushima shows clearly how some design aspects were not considered 40 years ago while designing reactors. It does not show failure of Nuclear Science as such. Science and Technology save each day millions. If you travel by air regularly, you're really at the mercy of design and emperical constructions. But they work and statistically you're much less likely to cop it in air than you are driving in Delhi or Bangaleru roads. Risk is to be analysed and reduced. Risk will always be there, it can be minimized by better management, transparency and an adaptive process of risk analysis.

JMT/ IMHO...

[Sanku]

No sort of mass power generation is without risk. .

Well crossing the road has risk too. Can we equate it to power generation?

[chaanakya]

No sort of mass power generation is without risk. But what the world and India specifically cannot do without is mass power. India hardly has any option but to also go Nuclear. Initial reports all suggested that the Reactor survived the quake and it was back up systems that got sloshed by the Tsunami. However it looks the quake did do damage to the structure too. This definitely calls for a look into safety etc, but the call to not harness Nuclear power is a jump too far.

The first person to harness a sustained fire was probably burnt in it and called a devil, Galileo ws told to revoke his work. It was Science that tamed energy and power. While Chernobyl showed how not to manage Nuclear Plants, Fukushima shows clearly how some design aspects were not considered 40 years ago while designing reactors. It does not show failure of Nuclear Science as such. Science and Technology save each day millions. If you travel by air regularly, you're really at the mercy of design and emperical constructions. But they work and statistically you're much less likely to cop it in air than you are driving in Delhi or Bangaleru roads. Risk is to be analysed and reduced. Risk will always be there, it can be minimized by better management, transparency and an adaptive process of risk analysis.

JMT/ IMHO...

Ok I think that is the first clear statement that quake did damage the reactors before getting sloshed by Tsunami.

I am still to see confirmation coming from Japanese authorities concerned. My impression was that due to quake and tsunami, auxiliary systems failed which resulted in this situation. That shows to me that one can not view reactor as "joining of different parts" but "the system as a whole" where even auxiliary systems are critical to reactors safe functioning and shutdown esp when disaster is one step away (LOCA). Failure of one would mean failure of the system.

I agree that we need to draw proper conclusion and must review the programme in the light of Fukushima. That has been stated by me in the beginning of this discussions. It is sort of convenient to forget that and start /sighing/ in multiple posts, by a few.

Safety practices and design practices hardly give solace to one and does not build confidence in Nuclear Industry proponents. If Japanese could face such a situation india what would happen?? Do we rely on these assurances from so called experts?

Different posts here has highlighted the fact that what you are asking from Nuclear Industry is not about to happen. May be lip service, but nothing more.

This accident has the capacity to tank Japanese economy which is already reeling under long term recession. Chernobyl was one such factor in undoing of USSR.

"Pass or fail" is not the kind of judgement given for Science, they are either proven or dis-proven, When applying science for technological solutions other aspects enter into considerations.

The fukushima crisis has brought out multiple facets of the solutions, not one, and disagreement in one need not mean disagreement on the other, for example using nuke to swat our neighbor as a matter of survival and last resort is what strategic considerations demand, then so be it.

Also for all harangue against coal, NPBA activists do not say that coal would be dispensed with 100%. Are they taking that position? I did not see any one. And why consistent refusal to look at , improve upon other solutions, alternatives and improving efficiency and conservation. Are we promising to deliver power even for inefficient use ? People are not prepared to face consequences of others indiscriminate, inefficient and criminal use of power at the cost of their survival for generations.

Japanese Govt is now forced to order 15-25% power cuts and I am sure they would improve their efficiency and conservation efforts without compromising on their productivity. They have been pioneer in this and we have a lot to learn from them. Although , we have shown least inclination to learn that.

FWIW.

[chaanakya]

No sort of mass power generation is without risk. .

Well crossing the road has risk too. Can we equate it to power generation?

That he has already one with his allusions to Roads of Delhi and Bangaluru.

[Sanku]

Nowhere have the fraud "experts" and charlatans so thoroughly exposed as on this thread. No wonder we can hear the yelps of pain of getting their superficial knowledge thrown out with their ragged credibility.

In any case had people not focused so entirely on whitewashing the obvious, they could have a chance to be right. Instead they chose to be combative and hide things. The result is for all to see.

A walk away from Nuclear power in Japan, towards zero perhaps.

[chaanakya]

Nowhere have the fraud "experts" and charlatans so thoroughly exposed as on this thread. No wonder we can hear the yelps of pain of getting their superficial knowledge thrown out with their ragged credibility.

In any case had people not focused so entirely on whitewashing the obvious, they could have a chance to be right. Instead they chose to be combative and hide things. The result is for all to see.

A walk away from Nuclear power in Japan, towards zero perhaps.

Well, to be very frank, when I remarked about your post in my very first post here, I didn't realise that it would invite the kind of responses. What is plain like in broad day light, will eventually come out. Refusal to look at all issues is not a good omen for nuclear industry. In fact epidemiological research which go against the convenient views of Nuclear Industry is trashed on various grounds. When they are asked to establish their own conclusions against the same standards they squirm and try to draw you into black and white type of discussion.

My interest in Fukushima , partly, stemmed from the fact of my association with METI institutions from some time and was interested in knowing their responses and learning what they would be doing. Finally it seems that right conclusions are being drawn.

[Sanku]

Frankly Chaankya-San; I am too shocked at the reaction. There are people falling over themselves to prove Sun rises in the west. The thread has not moved past two month old denials. I thought that BRF being ahead of the curve would have been discussing the fall out of Fukushima much earlier than now.

Unfortunately there seems to be a effort to prove, "Fukushima did really never happen, and even if did, it is no worse than slipping on a banana peel after eating a banana and thats all there is to it."

[vina]

I will ask nicely. Chanakya-ji, Should BARC be shut down and dismantled?.

Do you know what BARC stands for? Is it on par with your NPPs??

I think he does. He probably works there!

[vina]

"Pass or fail" is not the kind of judgement given for Science, they are either proven or dis-proven, When applying science for technological solutions other aspects enter into considerations.

I am sorry. I just cant make head or tail out if it. If "technological solutions" are based on anything other than science, I like to hear on what else are they based on. Some make believe wishful alternate reality ?

[vina]

Unfortunately there seems to be a effort to prove, "Fukushima did really never happen, and even if did, it is no worse than slipping on a banana peel after eating a banana and thats all there is to it."

Yawn.. Another piece of fiction writing, a perfect script for a B grade Bollywood pot boiler with some extras dressed up as Geishas dancing in the background for effect.

In fact,this is right up on the lines of the of "Purdah Na Lagaa" (... songs of Yeh, Pardah na hatao, Purdeh me chipao kind of lyrics ripped off from old) script earlier, according to which the reason why the Japansese were not putting a Concrete Burkah at Fukushima was becasue that would mean an Equal-Equal with the Russians and as an ally , they wouldnt want to embarress the Americans!

[chaanakya]

"Pass or fail" is not the kind of judgement given for Science, they are either proven or dis-proven, When applying science for technological solutions other aspects enter into considerations.

I am sorry. I just cant make head or tail out if it. If "technological solutions" are based on anything other than science, I like to hear on what else are they based on. Some make believe wishful alternate reality ?

I can understand that you are ignorant, can't blame you for that, no need to be sorry. just think of commercial, environmental considerations to start with.

[chaanakya]

I will ask nicely. Chanakya-ji, Should BARC be shut down and dismantled?.

Do you know what BARC stands for? Is it on par with your NPPs??

I think he does. He probably works there!

Well , are you his proxy?

[GuruPrabhu]

No need to badger Vina.

I am quite familiar with Bhartiya Academy for Replacing Coal.