India Nuclear News And Discussion

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 14 May 2011 07:25

amit wrote:GP, if you read this, you'll understand why I narrated my Rottweiler experience to you in that earlier post.

And I'm sure you'll also note the deafening silence, despite the background noise.

Yes, I do note the silence. It is indeed a mystery. If folks with such anti-nuke views can not simply spell out their policy regarding BARC, I smell a political rat.

Once again, should BARC be shut down or not? If not, why not?

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 May 2011 08:08

X Posted from the TSP thread.

The plan to build nuclear reactors 3 and 4 at Chashma with assistance from P.R.China by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan despite being in violation of Nuclear Supplier Group guidelines progresses as evidenced by the release of funding.

So what “heavy lifting” and “taking a major risk to accommodate India” is the US supposed to have done for India in concluding the nuclear co-operation agreement?

In the end, as I have said before, the Nuclear Deal was a dismantling of a control regime that the US themselves actively participated in for the purpose (amongst others?) of shackling India. Thus the Nuclear Deal itself is no more than a correction of a past hostile act of penalizing India for acts India was not treaty bound to follow and the US should stow away talk of the need of being rewarded for “heavy lifting”, “taking a major risk to accommodate India” and such like.

Back to the funding of reactors 3 and 4:

In the nuclear energy sector, the entire allocated amount of Rs3.58 billion has been released for units three and four of the Chashma nuclear power plant.

From Dawn:

Funds for dozens of power projects, dams stopped

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 14 May 2011 08:14

^^^ maybe in Intl. nuke thread or Paki Prolif thread? Why stink up India nuke thread with Pakhanaistan news?

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 May 2011 08:34

^^^ Why not dwell with the Indian aspect which my comment is mainly about?

amit · Post by **amit** » 14 May 2011 09:03

arun wrote:^^^ Why not dwell with the Indian aspect which my comment is mainly about?

Arun,

Your India part of the message bears merit. But it also means that with the Indian Nuke industry free from the shackles it has an opportunity to soar? In a way I think that is what is happening with uranium import and deals with the Khazaks for example.

If you read this thread, at least the last few dozen pages I don't think anyone is arguing that US should be rewarded for its alleged heavy lifting. The argument is at a more fundamental level of existence of the nuke industry with folks even opposing the French project, wanting to close down Kundankulam, move Kalpakkalam, all LWRs are bad, plutonium is bad itadi. The US doesn't even figure.

That's why GP and I have asked a fundamental question more than 24 hours ago: Should BARC be closed down because Fukushima seems to have taught some folks here that the global nuke industry is run by a cabal like structure and is inherently not to be trusted.

No answer yet and traffic to this thread has fallen off the cliff since then.

Where does the US come in?

amit · Post by **amit** » 14 May 2011 09:09

GuruPrabhu wrote:Yes, I do note the silence. It is indeed a mystery. If folks with such anti-nuke views can not simply spell out their policy regarding BARC, I smell a political rat.

Once again, should BARC be shut down or not? If not, why not?

Indeed should or should not? Should be a easy answer shouldn't it be?

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 14 May 2011 09:18

arun wrote:^^^ Why not dwell with the Indian aspect which my comment is mainly about?

What is there to "dwell" upon? What you have stated has been stated 1,00,000 times before and it is absolutely true. What does that have to do with anything at all? Everybody and their cousin knows that the US is out to screw India -- what do you want folks to say? What China does with Pakistan is their business -- if it is India's business, then please propose what India should do about it. Else, it is just whining about how India is totally helpless.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 May 2011 13:23

^^^gp, I replied on that question in the other thread.

It's hilarious really, the kind of blind uninformed hatred that clouds any analysis.

Only a complete lack of awareness about the nuke deal can ause one to equate India's exemption with the Chinese favour to the pakis.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 14 May 2011 15:05

arun saab

No one disputes what you say, but the simple point is this: Pakistan has an "ally" China that is willing to go against the NSG mandates and supply reactors and fuel to it for its own strategic interests. India doesn't and Russians have clearly said the VVER deal was the last one and no more. India as of yet does not have the wherewithal to coerce anyone to supply it uranium against NSG mandates, so it has to play ball with US and go for the deal if it wants uranium. for it plants.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 May 2011 15:59

I asked about the plutonium production reactors a few pages back. Should these also be shut down? No more nuclear weapons for India?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 May 2011 16:20

X-posting from Fukushima thread

Busby seems to have been a windfall! He has become the punchbag for all the frustrations of the self-appointed nuclear-power-bacaho andolan (NPBA)! But dear NPBA-ists, isnt it an over-reaction? Focusing too much on a single dubious opponent can mean a real lack of confidence on your own position.

India's nuclear weapons research and capabilities are a strategic necessity, and will continue to be so for some time, until Pakistan comes under Indian sovereignty and the PRC is cleaned up of its communist party. Every research and production facility in India dealing with the military side is of national importance. Civilian components should be protected in as much as they provide inputs to the military nuclear programme. Beyond that things have become really hazy about pushing for increasing scales of nuclear power generation and that is a political-socal reality you cannot simply wish away.

You will win much greater support for your position, if you do not undertake such snide personal remarks against your opponents. It could be a better strategy to at least pretend to be genuinely concerned at their "concerns". If you choose to continue to bring in "rottweilers analogies" - even if covered by a logical excuse that really doesn't pass, or bring in completely unrelated but hoped to be pricking enough expressions like "Hindu rate of growth", or firing off with a flash against "posters who argue with smileys" (only applicable to hated posters but welcome for supporters), or dubbing published peer reviewed authors as "perfidious" while citing supposed counter-papers that trash such perfidies but which reveal theoretical speculations on "extremes of theoretical possibility" and refusing to tackle perfidies in the regular academic way, etc, you will only help your opponents agenda if any.

Carry on gentlemen, the more NPBA-giri shouts and shows its vicious fangs of personal comments, the more you will pushover the middle-roaders into the opposite camp. If your position has inherent merit, it is pushed better with verbal and linguistic restraint. But you seem to have set yourself against the reality of the political and social process of formation of opinions. If you carry on in this mode, you will force more people on to the other side, and a great service you would have done to India's core strategic needs.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 14 May 2011 16:30

Civilian components should be protected in as much as they provide inputs to the military nuclear programme.

There will be no military programme unless it piggy backs on a much larger civilian one.
If you think otherwise, I have a large marble structure in Agra for sale. Cheap.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 May 2011 16:55

Then ask the NPBA-ists to clearly state that, instead of all the other "power generation" wool, or personal vilification.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 May 2011 17:05

Tanaji wrote:arun saab

No one disputes what you say, but the simple point is this: Pakistan has an "ally" China that is willing to go against the NSG mandates and supply reactors and fuel to it for its own strategic interests. India doesn't and Russians have clearly said the VVER deal was the last one and no more. India as of yet does not have the wherewithal to coerce anyone to supply it uranium against NSG mandates, so it has to play ball with US and go for the deal if it wants uranium. for it plants.

Tanaji, this Chinese thing is a non sequitor, almost inthe same vein as MVR's paper on inadequacy of reprocessing for fbr.

The Chinese action is very similar to russia's for us. It's exceptional, requires enormous amour of capital, and is NOT scalable. The pakis are happy with it because of the optics. For India such an arrangement would make no difference at all. For the pakis besides the optics the plant would generate Pu for their new Pu based weapons programme. They are not lookin to scale it up. India's nuke deal puts us in a different league.

This is as much a non sequitor as the mvr article belaboured upon by uber nationaliss without perhaps understanding a whit of what our nuke power roadmap is. For, a simple question has remained unanswered - wh is the relevance of fussing the programme on reprocessing capacities when fbr are peripheral to the issue in the next 20 years? Now there is no ans to that, maybe because there is no understanding f trh core issue itself! Ditto with this chinese shenanigans.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 May 2011 17:23

There goes off the cannon again - the expression "uber nationalist" has to be inserted into every sentence and in every post. No one seems to mind this particular irrelevance, so perhaps should not mind also dubbing such harangues as coming from uber pseudo-secularist pseudo nationalists. No one else other than these uber p-sec uber p-nationalists understand what they undertsand. Even after trying to simply call names to a published author but shying away from challenging that author through the regular academic process, and citing supposed bashing papers that discuss "extremes of theoretical possibilities" of zirconium less fuel that has so far not been "subjected to irradiation exposure" to draw any conclusions from.

Every so-called serious discussion by these types must contain a liberal spewing out of "uber nationalists", or "Hindu rate of growth" or "perfidious authors" [who will not be academically challenged however in spite of all the understanding reposed in these possibly nuclear scientists].

Now what does that show? Probably an underlying political agenda or perhaps sympathy towards potential financial flows which can flow around a bit from transactions with foreign firms? This is not going to save the Nuclear-power-bachao-andolan if you continue to alienate people in this way.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 14 May 2011 17:42

People with an academic khujli should scratch their own itch. The fact of the matter is that the fan club can not find a simple error after numerous hints. Sorry, I will not do the homework for self proclaimed "fault finders".

Dare I say that the hindu rate of fault finding is not a surprise? Actually, compared to the current rate (ZERO in weeks) the hindu rate would be a speed machine. Over and out.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 14 May 2011 18:15

arnab wrote:
chaanakya wrote:
If you show me a direct causal relationship with deaths as you claimed with that of "the" Coal power plant ( be specific) then perhaps there is a reason to believe that. Just because you whittled down your number from 300,000 to 10,000 does not make it factual. I am sure that is the strict proof of causality demanded in case of Cher.

Sorry I don't understand this - many moons ago the tobacco industry used arguments like 'no causal relationship beteween smoking and death'. What exactly would you achieve by correlating a 'specific coal plant' to a 'specific number of deaths'? Aggregate death from coal based pollution has been proved time and again with many reports (as provided earlier).

To take the smoking analogy - does it matter if you die smoking a goldflake as opposed to smoking 555?

Fact of the matter is coal has killed many more than nuke energy. We rely on coal because there is nothing better at the moment. An acceptable risk. We may not like it, but we do it just the same. Same for nukes - except the risks are lower as shown by number of deaths (both actual and potential).

These same elements will lecture us on how every cancer death in the next 50 years in Japan is caused by Fukushima and must be added to the "death toll".

Meanwhile coal related deaths have no "proven direct causality"

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 14 May 2011 20:15

UBanerjee wrote: These same elements will lecture us on how every cancer death in the next 50 years in Japan is caused by Fukushima and must be added to the "death toll".

Meanwhile coal related deaths have no "proven direct causality"

you are very late entrant to this. But just to remind, these very element have trashed studies regarding Cher and Japanese as there is no "direct" relationship in cause ( nuclear accidents and Radiation) and effect (consequent mortality for generations). In fact peer reviewed articles are trashed in most casual manner. So what's wrong in holding them with same petard. Why are you squirming,? is it hurting now?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 May 2011 20:27

^^^Which peer reviewed articles are you referring to?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 May 2011 20:47

UBanerjee wrote: These same elements will lecture us on how every cancer death in the next 50 years in Japan is caused by Fukushima and must be added to the "death toll".

Meanwhile coal related deaths have no "proven direct causality"

Do you understand the difference between deaths due to causality due to a ACCIDENT and death due to operating risks?

As such Nuclear has same life cycle carbon cost as other options hence they kill about the same due to pollution. In addition they have other operating pollutants.

Time to face the facts folks. t

==============

I see the people worst at science on this thread are the ones doing most lungi dance about it. With a few e-con-o-mists cheering their science. Guess they are roughly on same level of scientific knowledge.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 May 2011 21:33

Ah so the real khujli is about the "Hindu" then? Everything mocked at, disliked, hated must be tagged to the "Hindu" then! Shall we assume "dhimmification" in natural opposition to anything "Hindu" to be relevant then to explain the gratuitous labeling and "hinting" but never really putting it all up as a counter paper? if one is under "draconian" security clauses, and the bashing is not dependent on state military secrets but on supposedly simple principles of nuclear physics and nuclear engineering commonly known to the pool of nuclear engineers at large - why not get it out formally as a paper?

If everyone outside the NPBA fan-club on the forum is a nuclear-dunce, of course no need to formally counter academically. It will be all a mutual back-scratching society with decreasing number of supporters. Just labeling posters with choice epithets, or peer reviewed paper authors with "perfidy" but hiding behind snickers of "hints" which others do not apparently catch [from papers whose parts are talking of "extremes of theoretical possibilities" but are somehow exempt from the logic that if one part of one work is speculative/unreliable then everything else of that work is speculative/unreliable -used to bash critics of NPBA], or bringing in the "hated Hindu" onlee for anything that goes wrong - is good for the dhimmi ego perhaps. But then a point will come when the political masters will find it politically costly to continue to protect NPBA fan clubs. In turn that will impact indigenous research itself.

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 May 2011 21:38

amit wrote:Should BARC be closed down because Fukushima seems to have taught some folks here that the global nuke industry is run by a cabal like structure and is inherently not to be trusted.

Hey how about closing this fckn thread ?

Even the off-topic thread has higher SNR than this.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 May 2011 21:40

Before the thread is closed, BARC and weapons facilities should be closed down. We want a radiation free India.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 May 2011 21:45

Before the thread is closed, BARC and weapons facilities should be closed down. We want a radiation free India.

Well, in that case, you probably are going to build your house in the deepest part of the worked out gold field in Kolar which is one of the deepest mines in the world and where the cosmic ray facility is situated.. Still you will get irradiated by cosmic rays I think..And of course you will move your family and friends out of Kerala to Underground Bangarpet/Kolar to escape all that background radiation!

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 May 2011 21:57

Well at most by neutrinos and the elusive dark matter passing through, but not NPP related human created 1000 MicroSV per/.... due to BARC designed NPCIL operated NPPs and BARC weapons facilities.

And stop all the mining in Kerala.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 May 2011 22:03

negi wrote:
amit wrote:Should BARC be closed down because Fukushima seems to have taught some folks here that the global nuke industry is run by a cabal like structure and is inherently not to be trusted.
Hey how about closing this fckn thread ? Even the off-topic thread has higher SNR than this.

If only the problem would go away with closing the thread. The poison of intellectual dishonest runs deep.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 May 2011 22:09

There are arrogant physicists who do pseudo-science and worse are anti-national. How can one trust people at BARC, all birds of the same feather, I say. Time to do full CRE for general safety and as a precautionary measure. If Nuclear power is going to be only 3% at 2050, then time to wind up BARC. Nuclear weapons are just hyped up toys at the hands of arrogant strategic fundamentalists. More money should go to conventional weapons if security is indeed important. Everything else is pseudo-strategy and blindly importing western pseudo-science and strategic thinking, which has no use in the Indian context.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 May 2011 22:21

Bade wrote:There are arrogant physicists who do pseudo-science and worse are anti-national. How can one trust people at BARC, all birds of the same feather, I say. Time to do full CRE for general safety and as a precautionary measure. If Nuclear power is going to be only 3% at 2050, then time to wind up BARC. Nuclear weapons are just hyped up toys at the hands of arrogant strategic fundamentalists. More money should go to conventional weapons if security is indeed important. Everything else is pseudo-strategy and blindly importing western pseudo-science and strategic thinking, which has no use in the Indian context.

I really wish people did not equate opposing imports to opposing domestic tech. Not helpful.

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 May 2011 22:34

Yes from now on everyone one of us should fill Gobar in our bikes/cars . Swadeshi is the way to go.
"Gobar jalao Nuke bhagao"

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 May 2011 22:43

Sankusan,

As such Nuclear has same life cycle carbon cost as other options hence they kill about the same due to pollution. In addition they have other operating pollutants.

Can you please prove this statement? What references are you referring to? This is a very deliberate statement of propaganda to promote your personal agenda. Your credibility is zero.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 14 May 2011 23:31

vina wrote:
Before the thread is closed, BARC and weapons facilities should be closed down. We want a radiation free India.
Well, in that case, you probably are going to build your house in the deepest part of the worked out gold field in Kolar which is one of the deepest mines in the world and where the cosmic ray facility is situated.. Still you will get irradiated by cosmic rays I think..And of course you will move your family and friends out of Kerala to Underground Bangarpet/Kolar to escape all that background radiation!

Unfortunately, Kolar is now closed and filled with water. What to do onlee?

There is the INO project which is proceeding at a hindu rate of growth. Many years late and construction yet to start.

We need to hide somewhere from the fallout when 5 tonnes of Pu at BARC burns and spreads its poison.

The only safe thing to do is to ship all that Pu to the moon.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 14 May 2011 23:33

negi wrote:Yes from now on everyone one of us should fill Gobar in our bikes/cars . Swadeshi is the way to go.
"Gobar jalao Nuke bhagao"

Excellent suggestion. I can't wait for the gobar burning Mark XII Ambassador car to come out.

But we have to make sure that the strategic gobar stockpile is safe from 100m tsunamis.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 May 2011 23:44

Mort Walker wrote:Sankusan,

As such Nuclear has same life cycle carbon cost as other options hence they kill about the same due to pollution. In addition they have other operating pollutants.
Can you please prove this statement? What references are you referring to? This is a very deliberate statement of propaganda to promote your personal agenda. Your credibility is zero.

Mort-ji. Have you forgotten the basics of logic saar, according to you my credibility is zero, so how can I prove to you anything? You will accept proof from a person of zero credibility. (However if you were really capable or interested in the question you asked, you should be able to find the references on this thread, and guess what they are not by me)

Meanwhile let me remind you, the credibility of those who continue to insist (just like TEPCO) that nothing much has happened at Fuk-D is what is a question of interest. Not those who are accurately able to analyze the real situation.

You should worry about the credibility of TEPCO and their fanboys, rather than worry about mine.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 May 2011 23:46

GuruPrabhu wrote:
negi wrote:Yes from now on everyone one of us should fill Gobar in our bikes/cars . Swadeshi is the way to go.
"Gobar jalao Nuke bhagao"
Excellent suggestion. I can't wait for the gobar burning Mark XII Ambassador car to come out.

But we have to make sure that the strategic gobar stockpile is safe from 100m tsunamis.

Well given the "experts" output here already we have one piece of that in plenty i.e. gobar. I am sure the "experts" will make the other one.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 14 May 2011 23:49

Mort Walker wrote:Your credibility is zero.

But then we need the comic relief in serious discussions, na?

Nothing like resident "scientists" who are at par with Busby who is at par with Galleleo, Copurnicus ityadi.

I would like to nominate the court jester to be at par with Einstein onlee.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 14 May 2011 23:51

Sanku wrote:Well given the "experts" output here already we have one piece of that in plenty i.e. gobar. I am sure the "experts" will make the other one.

Sanku-ji, you should be made CGO -- top Babu position. All of BRF will share in your honor.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 May 2011 23:54

GuruPrabhu wrote:
Sanku wrote:Well given the "experts" output here already we have one piece of that in plenty i.e. gobar. I am sure the "experts" will make the other one.
Sanku-ji, you should be made CGO -- top Babu position. All of BRF will share in your honor.

Thank you GuruPrabhu-ji you are so kind, I can expect nothing else from you.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 May 2011 00:46

Is it only me; looks like parallel discussions are going on this this dhaga and the Fukushima dhaga . The Japanese themselves have moved on, I wonder then what the halla is all about ? Who is the Bredator in charge ? A serious clean up and couple of hell phyrrs are needed, if it helps you can send one my way .

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 15 May 2011 01:18

See it is soooo relevant from the expert opinion side to bring in the "Hindu" rate of growth - even out of its original "oh it was just coined for economic growth onlee of the 60's" [onlee after JLN's death of course - 60-64 is not part of 60's] excuse, now to non-economic fields! Should we then call rapid growth in any sector as "Dhimmi rate of growth" from now on?

So the civilian NPP sector in India is slated for a "Dhimmi rate of growth"? Led by experts on "Hindu" rates of growth? Or maybe "p-sec rate of growth" - because both Dhimmi and p-sec appear to be increasing if not in numbers at least in decibels and sarcasm?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 15 May 2011 01:20

What you are not convinced yet about radiation damage. What purpose has all the effort at documenting world wide evidence served then ? Even though nuclear is all pseudo-science as per BRF experts, unfortunately it works the same way everywhere. The radiation pollution threat is ever present and real even from non-videshi technology. I am a convert after reading reams of BRF debate on this and we need to keep this dangerous beast inside the bottle and get rid of it at the earliest in the interests of national security and for the health of future generations.

On a lighter note, isn't it surprising to see how science is being twisted by the attempts to achieve what some believe, and are trying to rectify where diplomacy failed, in keeping imported evil technology out. But in the process are shooting at what we do too. You cannot depend on pseudo science for indigenous technology if the science itself and the practitioners are sold out to lobbies.