Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 2011

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abhijitm
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by abhijitm »

I was checking of any article around August 2010 when US assumed to have confirmed hideout of OBL.
why pakistan plays a double game
During a July visit to Pakistan, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton publicly aired Washington's suspicion and mistrust of its ally by stating that she believed that someone in the Pakistan government knew where al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden was hiding in the country's tribal regions along the border with Afghanistan.{foxed :) }

Clinton's statement was an implicit indictment of Pakistan's double game; it was met with angry denials by Pakistani leaders, who said the U.S. undervalued their support and sacrifice in battling al Qaeda.
Anantha
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Anantha »

Meanwhile Pakis are scaling new heights in Other areas. In a fight for 6th and 7th place in cricket they are well placed in clinching the 7th place against drum Rolls please West Indies-have won

http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-indies ... 89218.html
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

Kerry: US-Pakistan alliance at 'critical moment'
(AP) – 2 hours ago
http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/kerr ... -1.2878217

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — U.S. Sen. John Kerry said on Sunday that the U.S. relationship with Pakistan was at a "critical moment" because of the killing of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and that there were growing calls to cut aid to the country.
Kerry, chairman of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said that although Pakistan had in the past sacrificed much in the battle against al-Qaida and its own domestic Islamic insurgency, the killing of bin Laden by U.S. Navy SEALs near the capital had raised questions.
Pakistan was not told about the raid in the city of Abbottabad until after it was completed. Some in the United States were critical of the Pakistan's security forces for having failed to detect the terror leader — or worse, giving him protection.
"We are at a moment where we have to resolve some very serious issues. This is not a moment for anything except very sober, serious discussion with an understanding that there is a lot at stake, there is no other way to put it. I think they understand that, we understand that," Kerry said in the Afghan capital.


A prominent hardline Islamist leader with suspected militant ties drew at least 4,000 people to a rally in the Pakistani city of Lahore on Sunday in support of bin Laden and against the U.S.
Hafiz Saeed, the leader of Jamaat-ud-Dawa, called bin Laden a martyr and demanded the Pakistani government break ties with the U.S. for killing him.
"Osama's death is the beginning of America's defeat," said Saeed, surrounded by several bearded gunmen and speaking from a makeshift stage in the heart of Lahore. "There is no justification for maintaining an alliance with America after its aggression against our country."
He said Pakistan's civilian leaders should give the military permission to shoot down U.S. drones, and called on Muslims all over the world to "stand up against America."

"Now is the start of a battle between Islam and infidels," said Saeed.
Jamaat-ud-Dawa is believed to be a front for the militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba, which is suspected of carrying out a series of attacks in the Indian city of Mumbai in 2008 that killed 166 people.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/ ... aden-raid/



Comments on this new report
The Bin Laden raid fiasco was a big blunder made by US further creating mistrust. It is about time Pakistan Air Force redeploys an extra squadron of F-16s at Peshawar airbase. Meanwhile the DGMO- Director Gen Military Ops should have a hotline, directly linked to Peshawar, Kohat, Risalpur airbases and scramble jets within minutes in case of an incursion. Regular ADA’s Air Defence Alert, combat air patrol missions will be needed. Even if it means ISI feeds CIA false information on another such compound in Quetta and lure the American SOF into another raid and then try to capture or confront them thereby busting the myth that American military is mighty. Also, radars, AWACS recently bought from Sweden will come handy, alongwith deployment of shoulder fire ANZA Missiles by ground units across Af-Pak border. These are tough measures, pakistan must walk the talk. Now is the time, otherwise next target is Pakistan’s nukes. And Pakistan Armed Forces know, their credibility is on the line. And DG ISI’s breifing to the parliament shows this is been taken very seriously. As Senator John Kerry is due IN Islamabad, Pakistani leaders have tough choices to make.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ArmenT »

Never would have believed it, but it looks like IED mubarak fridays in Pakistan are good for the economy (of other countries): :eek:
Yen Rises After Pakistan Bombing
The yen strengthened against most of its 16 major counterparts after a bombing in Pakistan killed at least 73 people, boosting demand for Japan’s currency as a refuge.

“The yen has substantial status as a safe haven,” said Adam Cole, global head of currency strategy at Royal Bank of Canada in London. “It’s clearly helped by a market which is turning more risk-averse.”
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by saip »

Then it must be Japan that is organizing these IED mubaraks. There you go, another CT!
Virupaksha
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Virupaksha »

the YYYY conspiracy, YamrikaYehudiYindu-Yenny conspiracy.

There you go
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Raja Bose »

Acharya wrote:http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2011/ ... aden-raid/



Comments on this new report
The Bin Laden raid fiasco was a big blunder made by US further creating mistrust. It is about time Pakistan Air Force redeploys an extra squadron of F-16s at Peshawar airbase. Meanwhile the DGMO- Director Gen Military Ops should have a hotline, directly linked to Peshawar, Kohat, Risalpur airbases and scramble jets within minutes in case of an incursion. Regular ADA’s Air Defence Alert, combat air patrol missions will be needed. Even if it means ISI feeds CIA false information on another such compound in Quetta and lure the American SOF into another raid and then try to capture or confront them thereby busting the myth that American military is mighty. Also, radars, AWACS recently bought from Sweden will come handy, alongwith deployment of shoulder fire ANZA Missiles by ground units across Af-Pak border. These are tough measures, pakistan must walk the talk. Now is the time, otherwise next target is Pakistan’s nukes. And Pakistan Armed Forces know, their credibility is on the line. And DG ISI’s breifing to the parliament shows this is been taken very seriously. As Senator John Kerry is due IN Islamabad, Pakistani leaders have tough choices to make.
Love the Lahori logic these Pakis piously exhibit - they want to bust the myth of American military might by using American made weapons against American troops! :rotfl: Are they now counting on 1 TFTA Paki = 10 TFTA Americans?? :lol:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Jaspreet »

lure the American SOF into another raid and then try to capture or confront them
Yessss!!! I totally support that. Go Pakistan go. We'll be cheering you on.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Gerard »

thereby busting the myth that American military is mighty.
The Pakistani military's mythical 'honor and dignity' seems to have taken a serious blow.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Pranay »

For those interested... 60 Minutes is broadcasting two telling interviews - Def. Sec. Gates and the ex. Head of Afghan Intelligence - now.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

ALERT

In the United States, CBS's famed TV News show "60 Minutes" is just now starting (7pm EST - GMT-5).

The second segment features Amrullha Sale, former Afghan Intelligence Chief. He says "Pakistan should be considered a hostile entity....."

You can listen live by going to a Toronto radio station's website at http://www.newstalk1010.com/ and clicking on the "Listen Live" link.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by sanjaykumar »

Indeed Pakistan may scramble F-16s to shoot down American 'copters, but it is more probable that another 'Osama abduction jone' :mrgreen: will open up, perhaps over Rawalpindi, so that the Mullah can keep his date with the raisin.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Surya »

Amarullah Saleh has done more than anyone to cast the spotlight on the perfidy of the pakis

I wish we had such articulate people.

I loved the way he said "Pakistan is inflicting pain on america" :evil: - a lot of idiot senators, sD officials, ombaba and assorted holbrooke cretins must had an uncomfortable time
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by jrjrao »

And compare this brave Afghan with this joker of a "military analyst and a retired lieutenant general in the Pakistani Army", who has taken to writing some comedy for the op-ed page of tomorrow's NY Times:

This really is ridiculously funny, where routine Paki circular logic is mixed up with outright lies and blackmail.

Patience, Not Punishment, for Pakistan
By Talat Masood
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/16/opini ... .html?_r=1
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Rangudu »

TSPA apologist Anatol Lieven says thus
Punishing Pakistan

Assuming—as seems overwhelmingly probable—that there was not a secret deal between the U.S. and Pakistan to kill Bin Laden, the question is only between Pakistani military incompetence and complicity when it comes to his location. Incompetence is possible, but in my judgement unlikely. I have visited Abbottabad, and I do not see how Pakistani intelligence can have failed to investigate that house—not to look for Bin Laden, but for Pakistani terrorists who might have targeted the numerous military institutions in the district.

If Pakistan’s argument of incompetence is to receive any credence whatsoever, then as a minimal first step the chiefs of both Pakistan’s military intelligence services, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and Military Intelligence (MI) should draw the logical conclusion from this and resign. Indeed, that is the first thing on which the U.S. should insist as a result of this affair.

That leaves complicity in sheltering Bin Laden, either by a group within the ISI, or by the military leadership itself. The first would demonstrate a criminal failure to exercise discipline over a vital military institution; the second a deeply hostile attitude to the United States and the West.

This would be true even if Bin Laden was being kept on ice to be sacrificed to the United States as a bargaining counter later. If, as the latest statements from the U.S. administration suggest, Bin Laden was exercising a degree of operational control over al-Qaeda from his Abbottabad hideout, then the complicity of the Pakistani military would be a matter so grave that it would cast them in the role of North Korea in terms of international responsibility.

I am not sure that I believe this latest administration line, both because his ability to exercise real control through a tiny number of couriers seems somewhat improbable, and because the administration has an obvious motive to exaggerate the level of their achievement in killing Bin Laden. However, it certainly underlines the crucial importance of establishing what the Pakistani military may have been up to.

If the consensus of U.S. official analysts and intelligence officers is that the Pakistani military was indeed sheltering Bin Laden, what should be the response on the part of the United States and the West? The answers to this are not at all easy, or Washington would have found them in response to the complicity of the ISI in planning (and possibly in ordering, though this is not clear) the terrorist attacks on Mumbai in 2008 which killed U.S. citizens along with so many Indians.

However, some sort of answer must be found. As I have written [3], I—like many other observers and, indeed, officials—was prepared to extend a measure of tolerance to the Pakistani military for its shelter to the leadership of the Afghan Taliban and past support for terrorist attacks on India (if only because this so clearly reflected the democratic will of the great majority of Pakistanis), as long—but only as long—as they genuinely and effectively cooperated in preventing terrorist attacks on the West; since after all that is what our soldiers in Afghanistan are supposed to be there to prevent.

My belief was supported by the fact that Pakistani intelligence had in fact given substantial help against international terrorism, including the arrest of a leading Indonesian terrorist in Abbottabad itself in January, and his handing over to the Indonesian authorities. If however the Pakistani military sheltered Bin Laden, then the basis for our tolerance is close to collapse. To reestablish it, Pakistani intelligence will have to do something really significant against the remaining al-Qaeda in Pakistan, and do it quickly. They must also of course give U.S. investigators full access to Bin Laden’s widows who were left behind by the raid.

Failing that, how can we bring pressure to bear on Pakistan? Launching drone attacks against Mullah Omar and other leaders of the Afghan Taliban in Pakistani Balochistan (hitherto an area which deliberately has been spared such attacks at the insistence of the Pakistanis) will solve nothing. On the contrary, we would only kill the very people whom we need to talk to in order to negotiate some kind of orderly and honorable exit from Afghanistan—since it is miserably clear that present U.S. strategy has no chance of bringing this about. Launching drone attacks against militant targets in Pakistan’s urban areas would radicalize the population and vastly increase terrorist recruitment. This should take place if, and only if, such groups have actually launched an attack on the U.S.

Strengthening the Pakistani civilian state so as to increase its control over the military and military intelligence is a good idea in principle, but it runs into two major obstacles. The first is that given the nature of the Pakistani state and the character of its political classes, this requires a process lasting a generation or more, and requiring not a strengthening but a fundamental transformation of Pakistan’s political system and therefore of its society.

Secondly, there is the question of whom we are strengthening. The present government led by the generally pro-Western leadership of the Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) may be a reliable partner; but this government will not last forever. The next government will almost certainly be led by the opposition PML(N) of Nawaz Sharif, and will probably include the Tehrik-e-Insaf of Imran Khan. To judge by their public and private statements, they will be no more reliable in the fight against al-Qaeda than is the Pakistani military.

That leaves two further short-term options. The first is economic pressure, starting with a reduction in U.S. aid, and progressing to economic sanctions if necessary. When it comes to serious economic pressure, the problem is that Pakistan’s economic situation is already so weak that for pressure to be tough enough to be effective, it might be tough enough to crumple up the Pakistani economy altogether, with frightening results for the immiseration and radicalisation of Pakistan’s population.

For while it is entirely true that I have argued that Pakistan is more resilient than it looks, and is not yet a failed or failing state, the United States certainly cannot deliberately try to make it one—unless Pakistan has in effect become an open enemy. Even without the apocalyptic threat of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons or materials falling into the hands of terrorists, a serious fraying of the Pakistani military would lead to anti-aircraft missiles, trained engineers and immense stores of munitions and equipment going astray. That in itself would raise the terrorist threat to the West by an order of magnitude, and absolutely ensure defeat in Afghanistan. For it must be stressed that—provenly in the case of the Afghan Taliban, probably in the case of al-Qaeda—the Pakistani military has given shelter to our enemies, it has not yet actually armed them.

Instead of economic pressure, what has been widely advanced as a means of U.S. coercion is a radical reduction in military aid to Pakistan. This does indeed seem very appealing. It would not greatly affect Pakistan’s ability to fight against the Islamist revolutionary threat to Pakistan itself, since for its own good reasons the Pakistani military is now committed to that fight; and it would indeed send a strong message of displeasure to Pakistan’s generals.

The problem here can be summed up in one word: China; for Pakistan is in fact China’s only real ally in the world, and energy land routes through Pakistan are regarded in Beijing as an important insurance against the possibility of U.S. or Indian naval blockade of the sea lanes from the Persian Gulf. Nonetheless, in recent years, Beijing has seemed to take a very cautious approach to Afghanistan and Pakistan, largely (or so I have been told by well-informed Chinese sources) because the Chinese government has genuinely not been sure how to proceed, given the hideous complexity of the issues, fear of antagonising the U.S., lack of confidence in the Pakistani state and economy, and its own concerns about Islamist militancy.

However, Chinese investment in Pakistani infrastructure has been considerable, and Chinese supplies of arms to Pakistan have also been growing steeply. Since the death of Bin Laden, however, Chinese statements have emphasised their support for Pakistan and their appreciation for Pakistan’s antiterrorism efforts. This raises the strong possibility that any reduction in U.S. help to Pakistan will simply be matched by an increase in Chinese help. That at least is the hope of the Pakistani establishment, and they may well be right.

That applies with even greater force to another form of pressure widely demanded in the United States, namely a closer U.S. alliance with India openly targeted against Pakistan. This would ensure increased Chinese help to Pakistan, and would absolutely infuriate ordinary Pakistanis. In addition, India is a very dangerous ally in the war on terror. Its main opposition party has structured its whole ideology around hatred of Islam; and with its complicity and that of local Indian police, savage massacres have been carried out against India’s Muslim minority. Those in Gujarat in 2002 claimed around ten times as many victims as the Mumbai terrorist attacks. :roll: :x

What then should Washington do? Firstly—unless, once again, there was a secret deal with the Pakistani military over Bin Laden—military assistance to Pakistan should be reduced as a sign of acute displeasure. Secondly, to try to ward off rivalry with China over Pakistan, the United States needs to begin intensive talks with Beijing on the subject of Pakistan, on the same level and with the same seriousness as those concerning North Korea.

In these talks, the U.S. side should stress that the U.S. and China share strong interests in maintaining Pakistan as a successful state, but among those interests are that Pakistan cooperate in preventing international terrorism—terrorism of which China itself is bound to be a victim in the long term, just as the United States eventually suffered from its appallingly misguided support for the Afghan Mujahedin and their Arab radical allies in the 1980s.

Finally, both Pakistan and China need to be told the following, very firmly indeed: A restrained U.S. response to the location of Bin Laden and the Mumbai terrorist attacks in 2008 has only been possible because no successful terrorist attack based from Pakistan has in fact yet struck the United States. Faisal Shehzad’s attempt in New York was—thank God—amateurish to the point of clownishness. If after what has now been revealed about Bin Laden’s location, the United States does suffer a major Pakistan-based attack, then all the political and moral constraints on U.S. retaliation against Pakistan which I outlined above will fly out of the window. No matter what the risks involved, Pakistan will have to be treated as an open enemy, and punished very severely indeed. So it is not for our sake that the Pakistani military should help to track down the remaining al-Qaeda leadership in Pakistan and prevent terrorist plots against the West. It is very much for their own.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Pranav »

Surya wrote:Amarullah Saleh has done more than anyone to cast the spotlight on the perfidy of the pakis

I wish we had such articulate people.

I loved the way he said "Pakistan is inflicting pain on america" :evil: - a lot of idiot senators, sD officials, ombaba and assorted holbrooke cretins must had an uncomfortable time
CRamS wrote: Here is the link to that segment alone

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id= ... photovideo

That shows the enormous extent to which western elites are willing to bend over backwards to protect their geopolitical investment in Pak, over the decades. The US Army needs to ask serious questions to their elites.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ramana »

Surya wrote:Amarullah Saleh has done more than anyone to cast the spotlight on the perfidy of the pakis

I wish we had such articulate people.

I loved the way he said "Pakistan is inflicting pain on america" :evil: - a lot of idiot senators, sD officials, ombaba and assorted holbrooke cretins must had an uncomfortable time

Cmdre. C Uday Bhaskar did say that TSP was able to do terrorism on US due to the nukes. The threat they have to US is they will arm the jihadis if US decides to take them to account. He calls this NET: Nuclear Enabled Terrorism.

Unfortunately no one among Indians understands his article.

Why do we hanker for outsiders and can't recognize our own great minds! 8)

While KS garu was alive he had his own detractors who couldn't see the ideas he had without looking at him.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Pranav »

Rangudu wrote:TSPA apologist Anatol Lieven says thus

That applies with even greater force to another form of pressure widely demanded in the United States, namely a closer U.S. alliance with India openly targeted against Pakistan. This would ensure increased Chinese help to Pakistan, and would absolutely infuriate ordinary Pakistanis. In addition, India is a very dangerous ally in the war on terror. Its main opposition party has structured its whole ideology around hatred of Islam; and with its complicity and that of local Indian police, savage massacres have been carried out against India’s Muslim minority. Those in Gujarat in 2002 claimed around ten times as many victims as the Mumbai terrorist attacks.
:roll: :x
hmm ... Lieven showing some more of his colors

What then should Washington do? Firstly—unless, once again, there was a secret deal with the Pakistani military over Bin Laden—military assistance to Pakistan should be reduced as a sign of acute displeasure.
OK, but weak. As Lieven mentions earlier - "This raises the strong possibility that any reduction in U.S. help to Pakistan will simply be matched by an increase in Chinese help."
Secondly, to try to ward off rivalry with China over Pakistan, the United States needs to begin intensive talks with Beijing on the subject of Pakistan, on the same level and with the same seriousness as those concerning North Korea.

In these talks, the U.S. side should stress that the U.S. and China share strong interests in maintaining Pakistan as a successful state, but among those interests are that Pakistan cooperate in preventing international terrorism—terrorism of which China itself is bound to be a victim in the long term ...
This is the only real point in Lieven article - the US and China should collaborate in propping up the Paks against India, and also collaborate to shape Pak behavior.

There is also an implicit threat that if technology in possession of the Paks leaks to anti-western-elite jihadis, then it could also leak to anti-China jihadis.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ManuT »

After heard of TSPA 'parliamentary' resolution and other 'issues' by BRF members or other lurkers...


1000000 apologies for putting it in IMFL.


Bewafai ka shikva hua, kisi kahin kone mein!
Izzat ka gam hua, sikkon ke paigaam ke baad?
Par iss Kaffir ka dil.. Dil na tha.

Aasteenon mein tha usman, aur thi badi badgumani
Hume ilm tha, tumse dosti purani
Par iss Kaffir ka ilm.. ilm na tha

Magribi mehfilon se bana jism tera
Magrib musafir ki umeedon par khoya husn tera
Par Iss Kaffir ka dil.. Dil na tha.

Ashrafon ki ashrafion mein, bani tu musharraf
Sheikhon ke khidmaton mein, bani khush t'waif
Par iss Kaffir ka dil, Dil na tha

Gar na khula to kaha, 'Yahi hai fikrat'
Dar Jo khola, to iss Kaffir ka dil, Dil na tha

Roye kismaton pe, badnaam kare paighambar.
Kaarm aaise, Sharm jaye kiyanat

Khuda ki nematon ko bataya tumne jahalat.
Jihdeeyon ki shoron mein bhoola mehnat-mashakat

Ibadat ke jamo to banaya tumne ibadat.
Par iss Kaffir ka gulistan, gul na tha

Imaan ke chakkron mein chali gayee liaqat.
Khuda ke diye din, dino ki nahi koi keemat
Allah ka fazl Hoga, intzaar kar kayamat.

Khuda ki nahi Caliphate yeh, hai Khuda se khilafat
Abhi waqt hai shayad, n kar Insaaniyat se bagawat

Kasabon ne mara begunahon, Kahan ki sarafat?
Hum hain kaffir, jana hume jahanum
Par iss Kaffir ka dum, Dum na tha?

Dekho dharti ke tukdon par ugaee tumne dozakh
Milenge Jinnah se, poochenge mili kya jannat?
Zalim, iss Kaffir ka ghar, Ghar na tha?
arun
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by arun »

Pranav wrote:
Surya wrote:Amarullah Saleh has done more than anyone to cast the spotlight on the perfidy of the pakis

I wish we had such articulate people.

I loved the way he said "Pakistan is inflicting pain on america" :evil: - a lot of idiot senators, sD officials, ombaba and assorted holbrooke cretins must had an uncomfortable time
CRamS wrote: Here is the link to that segment alone

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id= ... photovideo

That shows the enormous extent to which western elites are willing to bend over backwards to protect their geopolitical investment in Pak, over the decades. The US Army needs to ask serious questions to their elites.
Amrullah Saleh former head of Afghan Intelligence points out that no other country has inflicted as much pain on the US as has the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:
Asked if Pakistan is the enemy of the U.S., Saleh said, "The amount of pain Pakistan has inflicted upon the United States in the past 12 years is unprecedented. No other country has inflicted that amount of pain upon your nation."

"When you say pain, what do you mean specifically?" Logan asked.

"I mean, they generate fear for your country. They take your money. They do not cooperate. They created the Taliban. They are number one in nuclear proliferation, you name it. Every pain (the) U.S. has in that part of the world, the hub of that is Pakistan," Saleh explained.

CBS
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Vivek_A »

jrjrao wrote:And compare this brave Afghan with this joker of a "military analyst and a retired lieutenant general in the Pakistani Army", who has taken to writing some comedy for the op-ed page of tomorrow's NY Times:

This really is ridiculously funny, where routine Paki circular logic is mixed up with outright lies and blackmail.

Patience, Not Punishment, for Pakistan
By Talat Masood
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/16/opini ... .html?_r=1
j2r2: someone should send the NYT his words on 9/11..2008

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2008_pg3_2

Dealing with distrust —Talat Masood

Pakistan is unlikely to completely give up the jihadi tool against India unless the Kashmir dispute finds a satisfactory resolution. Washington pays scant attention to Pakistan’s security and strategic concerns either with respect to India or Afghanistan, giving rise to the duality in Pakistani policy looked at with such distrust by the US. Pakistan’s new government will find it relatively easier to shut down jihadi networks and dismantle them in due course based on the future of the Kashmir issue. Given that, India has a major responsibility in stabilising the region.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by vijayk »

Rangudu wrote:TSPA apologist Anatol Lieven says thus
Punishing Pakistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatol_Lieven
Anatol Lieven (28 June 1960) is a British author, journalist, and policy analyst. He is presently a Senior Researcher (Bernard L. Schwartz fellow and American Strategy Program fellow) at the New America Foundation, where he focuses on US global strategy and the War on Terrorism, Associated Scholar of the Transnational Crisis Project, Chair of International Relations and Terrorism Studies at King's College London
That explains it all. The crook comes from Londonistan, Terroristan's alter egoistan. No wonder the crook keeps supporting Pukes even after Bin Laden is found. The clueless brought Gujarat into the whole equation to justify supporting terrorists. Just for that Indian garbage CON men called leftists such as ARoy will bend over backwards to do any type of service this old puke.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ramana »

And they make you take of your shoes when you enter airports something you don't do when you vist your friends homes!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by arun »

Pranav wrote:
Rangudu wrote:TSPA apologist Anatol Lieven says thus

That applies with even greater force to another form of pressure widely demanded in the United States, namely a closer U.S. alliance with India openly targeted against Pakistan. This would ensure increased Chinese help to Pakistan, and would absolutely infuriate ordinary Pakistanis. In addition, India is a very dangerous ally in the war on terror. Its main opposition party has structured its whole ideology around hatred of Islam; and with its complicity and that of local Indian police, savage massacres have been carried out against India’s Muslim minority. Those in Gujarat in 2002 claimed around ten times as many victims as the Mumbai terrorist attacks. :roll: :x
hmm ... Lieven showing some more of his colors {Snipped} .....................
Yet more India hating colour being shown by Anatol Lieven from the same article posted by Rangudu :x .

Anatol Lieven is prepared to “extend a measure of tolerance to the Pakistani military” “for past terrorist attacks on India” “if only because this so clearly reflected the democratic will of the great majority of Pakistanis.” in return for the Islamic Republic of Pakistan “preventing terrorist attacks on the West”:
However, some sort of answer must be found. As I have written, I—like many other observers and, indeed, officials—was prepared to extend a measure of tolerance to the Pakistani military for its shelter to the leadership of the Afghan Taliban and past support for terrorist attacks on India (if only because this so clearly reflected the democratic will of the great majority of Pakistanis), as long—but only as long—as they genuinely and effectively cooperated in preventing terrorist attacks on the West; since after all that is what our soldiers in Afghanistan are supposed to be there to prevent.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Jarita »

Why on earth does the Paki-Khan relationship remind me of the movie fatal attraction
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

arun wrote:
Anatol Lieven is prepared to “extend a measure of tolerance to the Pakistani military” “for past terrorist attacks on India” “if only because this so clearly reflected the democratic will of the great majority of Pakistanis.” in return for the Islamic Republic of Pakistan “preventing terrorist attacks on the West”:
However, some sort of answer must be found. As I have written, I—like many other observers and, indeed, officials—was prepared to extend a measure of tolerance to the Pakistani military for its shelter to the leadership of the Afghan Taliban and past support for terrorist attacks on India (if only because this so clearly reflected the democratic will of the great majority of Pakistanis), as long—but only as long—as they genuinely and effectively cooperated in preventing terrorist attacks on the West; since after all that is what our soldiers in Afghanistan are supposed to be there to prevent.
What he is saying is that it is majority will of the people of Pakistan to have terrorist attack India.
What about the majority will of the democratic state of India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ramana »

A L is Wilfrid Scawen Blunt's disciple. He still peddles the Pakjabi leadership of global ummah line from that old imperialist first written in "Future of Islam".

BTW hats off to Acharya for spotting Anatole Lie(er) long ago.

This guy comes on CSPAN.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Pranav »

arun wrote: Anatol Lieven is prepared to “extend a measure of tolerance to the Pakistani military” “for past terrorist attacks on India” ....
The measure of tolerance is also for its shelter to the leadership of the Afghan Taliban, while the US Army folks are returning with their limbs blown off. Now, elites like Levien don't care a whole lot for the army grunt, but it does become unsustainable if it goes too far.

But the real issue for western elites is the possibility of Af-Pak, Central Asia, Iran slipping into the Chinese orbit, especially with the current economic trends. If that happens, then it is good-bye to the whole unipolar world order project.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ranjbe »

Anatol Lieven began his career as a correspondent in Central Europe, where his roots lie (possibly his parents immigrated to England from Poland - the Web is silent on this - shades of Miilibrain, former Foreign Secretary, and another anti-Indian loud mouth). He then became a "Russia/Central Europe' expert, which was an overcrowded field, and in lesser demand after the fall of the Soviet Union. He has now become a South Asian expert, particularly Pakistan. It has always baffled me how a man becomes an expert after writing a Ph.D thesis, and travelling in the Pakistan/Afghanistan area for a few months. Only a white man or woman (Christina Lamb for example) can have such pretensions, the brightest of SDRE's cannot.
Another expert with pro-Pakistani anti-Indian views is Polish-American Brezenski.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Altair »

ramana & Acharya
There are a whole bunch of Op-Ed writers who are Chinese Trojans. They do not support Chinese overtly but they make sure Chinese interests are met. They pump enough poison into the system for the Chinese to take advantage off. The current wedge they are driving in Asia is a signature Sun Tzu move. It is not mandatory for these writers to realize they are actually working for Chinese.We @ BRF must spot these Trojans and make a list. Anatol Lieven is one of them in the long list. Kindly correct me if I am in a wrong footing.
Altair
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by shiv »

Very interesting R-man. Very interesting indeed.

However, some sort of answer must be found. As I have written [3], I—like many other observers and, indeed, officials—was prepared to extend a measure of tolerance to the Pakistani military for its shelter to the leadership of the Afghan Taliban and past support for terrorist attacks on India (if only because this so clearly reflected the democratic will of the great majority of Pakistanis), as long—but only as long—as they genuinely and effectively cooperated in preventing terrorist attacks on the West; since after all that is what our soldiers in Afghanistan are supposed to be there to prevent.
So Lieven openly supports Pakistan against India, as long as it is not America. Fair enough, That is honest. But it also means that India should, if necessary support those Pakistanis who are equally "democratically" againt the US and are willing to kill US soldiers and citizens just as democratic Pakis are ready to kill Indians.



Strengthening the Pakistani civilian state so as to increase its control over the military and military intelligence is a good idea in principle, but it runs into two major obstacles. The first is that given the nature of the Pakistani state and the character of its political classes, this requires a process lasting a generation or more, and requiring not a strengthening but a fundamental transformation of Pakistan’s political system and therefore of its society.
Lieven is looking for a quick solution :rotfl: -2 for that


That applies with even greater force to another form of pressure widely demanded in the United States, namely a closer U.S. alliance with India openly targeted against Pakistan. This would ensure increased Chinese help to Pakistan, and would absolutely infuriate ordinary Pakistanis. In addition, India is a very dangerous ally in the war on terror. Its main opposition party has structured its whole ideology around hatred of Islam; and with its complicity and that of local Indian police, savage massacres have been carried out against India’s Muslim minority. Those in Gujarat in 2002 claimed around ten times as many victims as the Mumbai terrorist attacks.
There is no need to be angry or upset at these statements. Anger is merely cognitive dissonance that we Indians face when we are told that we are savage murderers of Muslims while we are taught to look at ourselves as gentle secularists.

It is constantly drilled into secular Indian minds via the secular Indian education system to which all BRFites belong that Indians are secular and do not oppose Islam. It is true that we do not oppose Islam. But it is also true that just Islamic extremism in India that upsets India's pluralistic social equilibrium will be massacres. if others have seen reports of these massacres - they are right in being wary of India. Islamic extremism will not be allowed to survive in India under the hijab of secularism or western style human rights. It is not only true that ten times a many Muslims were massacred in Gujarat than were killed in Mumbai, it is also true that ten times as many Muslims were massacred in Gujarat as Hindus killed on the train by Islamic extremists in the event that sparked the rioting. So yes - there is very little tolerance in Hindu India for Islamic extremism.

Let me quote Lieven here
(The US is)...prepared to extend a measure of tolerance to the Pakistani military for its <snip> past support for terrorist attacks on India (if only because this so clearly reflected the democratic will of the great majority of Pakistanis),
Islamic extremism will be stamped out in India by uncontrolled and uncontrollable rioting because that is a democratic will of the Hindu majority. Note that Islam is not being systematically stamped in India, but that is not an indicator of tolerance for forms of extremism that are seen as alien.

I think we educated Indians need to understand this basic fact about the behaviour of the Indian "masses". That awareness would be the first seed of political awareness of India in the same way that Lieven shows awareness of the political likes and dislikes of Pakistanis. It is the denial of educated Indians and the belief that the Indian population will tolerate Islamic extremism because the laws call for that which is the problem. The Indian population will find its own way of behaving and we have to reach accommodation with that - just as Lieven and the US are willing to reach accoomodation withe the anti-Indian behavior of the Pakistani population which Lieven judges as "democratic will"



Finally, both Pakistan and China need to be told the following, very firmly indeed: A restrained U.S. response to the location of Bin Laden and the Mumbai terrorist attacks in 2008 has only been possible because no successful terrorist attack based from Pakistan has in fact yet struck the United States. Faisal Shehzad’s attempt in New York was—thank God—amateurish to the point of clownishness. If after what has now been revealed about Bin Laden’s location, the United States does suffer a major Pakistan-based attack, then all the political and moral constraints on U.S. retaliation against Pakistan which I outlined above will fly out of the window. No matter what the risks involved, Pakistan will have to be treated as an open enemy, and punished very severely indeed. So it is not for our sake that the Pakistani military should help to track down the remaining al-Qaeda leadership in Pakistan and prevent terrorist plots against the West. It is very much for their own.
A veiled warning from Lieven to Pakistan?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

Altair wrote:ramana & Acharya
There are a whole bunch of Op-Ed writers who are Chinese Trojans. They do not support Chinese overtly but they make sure Chinese interests are met. They pump enough poison into the system for the Chinese to take advantage off. The current wedge they are driving in Asia is a signature Sun Tzu move. It is not mandatory for these writers to realize they are actually working for Chinese.We @ BRF must spot these Trojans and make a list. Anatol Lieven is one of them in the long list. Kindly correct me if I am in a wrong footing.
Altair
There are two streams for this group in the media and analysts.

The old British imperialist are hidden in the CFR and other global bodies and they are still pushing the Churchil empire.
The goal is the access to central asia or the balkans of Asia as The Grand Chess board by Dr Zbig. This has to pass through Kashmir valley


The other side is the PRC imperialist vision which wants to connect the land mass and drive its expansion. Both this imperialistic vision is coming together now and are ready for the next stage.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by sum »

Inter-Services Intelligence's (ISI) powerful chief Lt Gen Ahmad Shuja Pasha has warned India that any Abbottabad-like attack by it would invite a befitting response from Pakistan as targets inside the country "had already been identified" and "rehearsal" carried out.
Is he talking about Headley or some other LeT/"rogue elements" still roaming in Desh?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by shiv »

arun wrote: hmm ... Lieven showing some more of his colors {Snipped} .....................

Yet more India hating colour being shown by Anatol Lieven from the same article posted by Rangudu :x .
No No. This is not India hatred. It's the bald truth. Indians will massacre Islamic extremists and 20 innocent bystanders around each extremist. Anyone standing near an extremist could get killed. Everyone knows that. Only educated Indians, educated in British style secularism protest this. The protest is feeble and unnecessary.

India and Pakistan are the same. But Pakistan suffers from Islamic extremism because they have not stamped it out. India WILL stamp it out. By hook or by crook. If the politicians don't do it. The people will.

Let there be no misunderstanding. Let there be no denial.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by shiv »

I am grateful to Anato Lieven because he has opened my mind and I am not being sarcastic.

He has provided justification for Pakistan's anti-India actions because they have "democratic support" among the Pakistani people. To Lieven the constitution, rule of law and human rights are secondary.

Lieven's words have allowed me to apply the same standards to India. In some instances - such as the violent killing of Muslim extremists and some innocent bystanders in India the constitution and rule of law do not matter. What matters is the democratic will of the majority who seek disporportionate revenge by massacre. It is fully justified. And if Pakistanis fear that they are justified. After all - India is cleaning out extremism from India. Pakistan that haven of islam is preserving the specie of Islamic extremists who would be endangered in India.

Sauce for the Goose, they say, is sauce for the gander.

Thank you Anatol bhai. Thank you. Dhanyawad. Any man who gives me gyan is my guru. You are, in a sense, my guru.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Altair »

Inter-Services Intelligence's (ISI) powerful chief Lt Gen Ahmad Shuja Pasha has warned India that any Abbottabad-like attack by it would invite a befitting response from Pakistan as targets inside the country "had already been identified" and "rehearsal" carried out.
Any attack now on India would be counter-productive for Pakistanis. It would justify Cold-Start. Summer is the best season to do so. IA is ready as ever to teach them a lesson. Pasha is just wetting his pants as people of Pakistan would crucify him if India carries out a raid on next amavas on June 1. :mrgreen:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by A_Gupta »

My reply to Lieven:
http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/ ... mment-2548
Lieven is willing to tolerate - on behalf of the entire West - past terrorist attacks on India. Who is he to speak for the West? Who elected him? For his information, there are two million people of Indian origin in the USA who are not willing to tolerate or forgive it. There are some equally large number in the United Kingdom. Lieven thinks it is the democratic will of the Pakistanis to commit terror attacks against India (who is he to speak for Pakistan? just because he was hosted by Najam and Jugnu Sethi?), and he respects their democratic rights to terrorism. What about the democratic rights of the aforementioned two million? I think Lieven would make a model Pakistani elite - his ignorance, arrogance, support for terrorism as long as it doesn't come his way and willingness to shed other people's blood is a perfect fit.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by A_Gupta »

Lieven's book has the dedication:

"In memory of my grandparents, George Henry Monahan, Indian Civil Service, Helen Monahan (nee Kennedy), and their son, Captain Hugh Monahan, MC, 5th Royal Gurkha Rifles (Frontier Force)...."
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