Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 2011

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
saadhak
BRFite
Posts: 188
Joined: 17 Mar 2011 21:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by saadhak »

Let's see them walk the talk. Hope Unkil gives them an opportunity soon.
Related report says the 50 Thandaars are going to be fully funded by Cheen.
With the supply of the new fighters, Pakistan Air Force will now have a total of 260 Chinese jets, making them the mainstay of the force
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by shiv »

SSridhar wrote:
- My understanding is that the most common kind of Islamism in the PA, especially in the junior officer corps is the Islamic nationalism of Zia that is personified by Hamid Gul and Aslam Beg. These people aren't beards, and they haven't given their allegiance to any particular tanzeem. What they really get worked up about is the idea of Pakistan, and the PA in particular as the sword arm of Islam.
They both gave their allegiance to defend OBL in the January 9, 2001 Deobandi conference organized by Maulana Sami-ul-Haq at Peshawar. They declared OBL as a great hero and vowed to protect him. That was eight months before 9/11. Subsequent events have only made them more steadfast in their outlook as one can glean from their op-eds, interviews etc.
The beardless tanzeemless definition of "Pakistani nationalism" should not be misinterpreted. It is very Sunni if nothing else and probably a Wahhabandi blend.

The Pakistani army has changed in many ways which cannot be ignored and assumed to be Pakistani nationalism without defining "Pakistani nationalism" means. if we ignore the fact that beards are probably a bit more common today than they were in the past - we still find a great deal more "Islamic piety" in the Pakistan army.

A prime example would be the absence of alcohol in messes and Rum rations. This is not an insignificant loss. Military history is rife with stories of men in the front lines imbibing and using various intoxicants including alcohol in a manner that boosted both efficacy and morale.

Another sign is the segregation of men and women in a manner that affects the officer (elite) classes more than the ranks. In other words - the appearance of Islamic piety has to be maintained by the officer class. Perhaps all do not choose to have things that way but if some did they would not find it odd and it would be an example of cryptic Islamist leanings.

Quite apart from all this is the huge elephant in the room. This ever so nationalistic army that is always ready to trounce India and "loses morale" because of American action in Pakistan does not give a flying phuck for the massacre of shias or Ahmedis (and I am referring to the lack of noise from the middle ranking officers here) . They may be nationalist all right in opposing India and the US, but they certainly have some Islamist leanings which seems to be part of their idea of Pakistan. Their idea of Pakistan is patriotic enough to oppose India and the US but does not extend so far as to worry about a few designated non Muslims and other offal.

To that extent the Pakistan army's "nationalism" falls in the same genre as Cohen's idea that the Pakistani army is secular. For Cohen, being anti-Hindu is in in no way inconsistent with a secular army. The absence of allegiance to a pre-defined tanzeem "template" and the diagnosis of such a feature as "nationalism" is the very same dangerous precedent that said Islam is a nation. If it is I am Brad Pitt.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60276
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ramana »

The above posts by SSridhar and Shiv are some of the finest dissemination of knowledge about the state of affairs in TSP. One can't find such clarity in any media outlet East or West. And all this for free.
Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7115
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Muppalla »

There are several Tweets that some wikileaks regarding TSP will be released by NDTV and CNN-IBN tonight at 9pm IST. Are these already out? If so what are they?
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »


Attack by Pakistan is an attack by China on India.
saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4380
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by saip »

So the brave Pakistani army killed 5 unarmed people and claim to have eliminated 5 foreign terrorists. I guess that saves their H&D!

Chechens killed in Quetta were unarmed: witnesses

http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/19/chechens ... esses.html
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by RamaY »

shiv wrote:
Hot air
Could be. PoK is the key location on this chess board. India has a legal right on that and it must claim it and fight for it, if needed.
Rajdeep
BRFite
Posts: 491
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 20:48

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Rajdeep »

Muppalla wrote:There are several Tweets that some wikileaks regarding TSP will be released by NDTV and CNN-IBN tonight at 9pm IST. Are these already out? If so what are they?
It seems like this was the report
WikiLeaks: Can the US stop Pak terror against India?
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/wikil ... dia-107038
Only 12 days before Clinton's note, a cable sent by Charles Burleigh,Charge D' Affaires, New Delhi, summarised a meeting between US Under Secretary Nick Burn and India's Home Minister P Chidambaram. The cable to Washington read, "It was unfortunate, P. Chidambaram said to Under Secretary Burns that the United States was unable to stop Pakistan from allowing terrorist groups to form and launch against India....Returning to the prospect of another attack on Indian territory, Chidambaram noted that the "people of India will expect us to respond. We don't have any other choice." Under secretary Burns stressed that the US is pressing Pakistan to take action against all terrorist groups but ...we were likewise frustrated by the lack of demonstrable action against some groups."
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

Rajdeep wrote:
It seems like this was the report
WikiLeaks: Can the US stop Pak terror against India?
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/wikil ... dia-107038
Chidambaram noted that the "people of India will expect us to respond. We don't have any other choice." Under secretary Burns stressed that the US is pressing Pakistan to take action against all terrorist groups but ...we were likewise frustrated by the lack of demonstrable action against some groups."

This is kind of a joke. US has funded more than $50B to Pakistan since last 0 years and they have trained these same groups to kill the Indians and here Indians are asking US to help them stop the killing.
Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7115
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Muppalla »

Per Mandeep Bajwa's tweet:
WikiLeaks: Pak Air Force airmen getting radicalised, sabotaging F-16s, other planes and operations. Officers very worried
May be Uncle has decided to bring down any flying F-16.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Singha »

does he mean PAF assets deployed to bomb and rocket the biraders?
Nandu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2195
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Nandu »

After reading through the whole thing, looks entirely made up by Gilani and/or the reporter.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60276
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ramana »

Acharya wrote:

Attack by Pakistan is an attack by China on India.
This PRC-TSP alliance will lead to repeat of 1998 in different arena.

PRC will again get surprised.
Johann
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2075
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Johann »

S Sridhar, Shiv

To put what I've been saying another way, the Pakistani Army has incubated its own distinct brand of Islamist nationalism.

It is a brand that is open to cooperation with most other brands, but is also competition with them.

It is also a brand that is popular in Pakjab in particular, and promoted by public figures like Zaid Hamid and journalists like Ahmad Qureshi. A lot of Pakistanis call the civilian and retired elements of this movement the "ghairat brigade".

If there is an offficer revolt from below it is not going to be in the name of some other brand of Islamism, but rather the PA's own carefully nurtured ideology.

As for the anti-Shia element it seems pretty agnostic - they will use sectarian Deobandi tanzeems if they are useful in India and Pakistan, and be just as willing to use others that do not conduct attacks like the JeI and LeT. The willingness to take on Iran seems more to do with the need to support groups that keep the Saudis happy than anything else.

The PA's Islamism has much in common with the Jamaat-e-Islam, which is not surprising since the JI was the PA's main ideological partner in developing its particular flavour of Islamism since the mid 1960s. Aslam Beg was just as happy to work with Iran when the Saudis got impatient wiith Pakistan in 1991 over their stance on the Gulf War and US leadership.
CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6865
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by CRamS »

Guys:

BP alert. As many including me have speculated, it will come down to this, namely, now there is even no moral relativism, its now passe in the halls of power in US and its lackeys like UK to suggest oh so poor TSP it needs LeT to confront big baad India, and the west must lean on India to appease TSP (and to make it palatable to Indian elites, this nonsesne about emerging superpower). So from India alleges TSP denies that used to be the mantra of yesteryear, to Indian "conspiracy" theories about ISI, now just because the whites have learnt the truth, namely, TSP is a terrorist state, they have accepted India's contention about TSP all along, but their ultimate gall; that India must somehow appease TSP despite all its crimes. I am refering to the following hot air from the latest issue of the Economist rag (rag it is when it comes to India & TSP issues; otherwise on other issues, economics, business, science & technology etc, its worth a read).

http://www.economist.com/node/18712525? ... d=18712525

http://www.economist.com/node/18712274? ... d=18712274

They also have the usual whine about India not accepting Economist's views of what India's borders should be, and the nonsense about India shooting school boys throwing stones in the valley. They seem to subtly suggest that TSP must be given a nuke deal. What a bunch of slimy racist colonial arse holes.
Last edited by CRamS on 19 May 2011 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4849
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by KLNMurthy »

Johann wrote:S Sridhar, Shiv

To put what I've been saying another way, the Pakistani Army has incubated its own distinct brand of Islamist nationalism.

It is a brand that is open to cooperation with most other brands, but is also competition with them.

It is also a brand that is popular in Pakjab in particular, and promoted by public figures like Zaid Hamid and journalists like Ahmad Qureshi. A lot of Pakistanis call the civilian and retired elements of this movement the "ghairat brigade".

If there is an offficer revolt from below it is not going to be in the name of some other brand of Islamism, but rather the PA's own carefully nurtured ideology.

As for the anti-Shia element it seems pretty agnostic - they will use sectarian Deobandi tanzeems if they are useful in India and Pakistan, and be just as willing to use others that do not conduct attacks like the JeI and LeT. The willingness to take on Iran seems more to do with the need to support groups that keep the Saudis happy than anything else.

The PA's Islamism has much in common with the Jamaat-e-Islam, which is not surprising since the JI was the PA's main ideological partner in developing its particular flavour of Islamism since the mid 1960s. Aslam Beg was just as happy to work with Iran when the Saudis got impatient wiith Pakistan in 1991 over their stance on the Gulf War and US leadership.
Calling the PA's Islamism "distinct" is a distinct error. Of course they will have their own internal pushes and pulls with other divisions within the overall corporate body--same as any departmental politics in a corporation--but that doesn't make them a distinct brand.

As the Islamists fight their war, they need to stay engaged with the outside world; for the winning scenario, they need someone to whom the dhimmi can comfortably surrender. The PA is that engaging face.

Analogy is with the various grafs and counts of pre-WWII Nazi Germany, who gave European upper classes the impression that these guys may be a bit off, but basically are "just like us" in essence. These guys wore white gloves and didn't indulge in crude street violence, but by no stretch of imagination were they distinct from Nazis.
rsingh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4451
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 01:05
Location: Pindi
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by rsingh »

If US can mend fences with Iran............it has lot to gain. Mosad chief is making right noise.India can try to be mediator.
VikramS
BRFite
Posts: 1887
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by VikramS »

rsingh wrote:If US can mend fences with Iran............it has lot to gain. Mosad chief is making right noise.India can try to be mediator.
I had discussed this in the TSP-US/China thread. The key to region is Iran. If the Shia bomb can be put on cold storage, it is curtains for the TSP.

It is a critical time for the PRC. So far they have played the role of the spoiler. Now that they are #2 in the world, will they be able to outgrow that thought process and become enablers?
Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Cosmo_R »

Why does anyone on BR read the Economist? Way back in the 1990s, it famously referred to Essar Steel's attempt to purchase Trinidad Steel as '...a ambitious move by third world pavement dwellers from a bicycle economy'

It has always been a racist rag.
anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9203
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by anupmisra »

Acharya wrote:Attack by Pakistan is an attack by China on India.
That's the way global realpolitik works. Now, only if India has similar mutrual defence pacts with Vietnam, S.Korea, Indonesia, Phillipines, Japan, Cambodia, Laos....But you need guts for that.
Last edited by anupmisra on 20 May 2011 01:53, edited 1 time in total.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Pranav »

Acharya wrote:
Rajdeep wrote:
It seems like this was the report
WikiLeaks: Can the US stop Pak terror against India?
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/wikil ... dia-107038
Chidambaram noted that the "people of India will expect us to respond. We don't have any other choice." Under secretary Burns stressed that the US is pressing Pakistan to take action against all terrorist groups but ...we were likewise frustrated by the lack of demonstrable action against some groups."

This is kind of a joke. US has funded more than $50B to Pakistan since last 0 years and they have trained these same groups to kill the Indians and here Indians are asking US to help them stop the killing.
As per Armitage, LeT is also killing Americans in Afghanistan. So US interests may have become more aligned with India than they once were.
Manny
BRFite
Posts: 859
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 22:16
Location: Texas

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Manny »

The Economist is a leftist trash. Oxford socialist economists' trash. Its not a white man thing. Its a leftist thing. :lol:
Last edited by Manny on 20 May 2011 01:52, edited 1 time in total.
anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9203
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by anupmisra »

RamaY wrote:Could be. PoK is the key location on this chess board. India has a legal right on that and it must claim it and fight for it, if needed.
You are kidding right? Fight for it? India is a soft state. It cant fight for the land it already claims to control (hint: naxalites). How can it fight for the land under someone else's control, even if it is legally India's land?
CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6865
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by CRamS »

Manny wrote:The Economist is a leftist trash. Oxford socialist economists' trash. Its not a white man thing. Its a leftist thing. :lol:
Come on, its trash alright but not leftist. Its a mouthpiece for hardcore western capitalist ruling class.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by RamaY »

anupmisra wrote:
RamaY wrote:Could be. PoK is the key location on this chess board. India has a legal right on that and it must claim it and fight for it, if needed.
You are kidding right? Fight for it? India is a soft state. It cant fight for the land it already claims to control (hint: naxalites). How can it fight for the land under someone else's control, even if it is legally India's land?
Not all times are same... who knows the economically progressed India can do the unthinkable when a terrorist Paki tries to destroy their hard earned wealth :P
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Pranav »

CRamS wrote:
Manny wrote:The Economist is a leftist trash. Oxford socialist economists' trash. Its not a white man thing. Its a leftist thing. :lol:
Come on, its trash alright but not leftist. Its a mouthpiece for hardcore western capitalist ruling class.
OT, but the supreme form of Capitalism is Communism. Think about it. After all, it was the capitalist elites that funded the Bolshevik revolution.
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13541
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by A_Gupta »

Taqiya in action:
http://pakteahouse.net/2011/05/19/in-a- ... olor-grey/
Last week I met Mullana Fazlur Rehman who was in Brussels to attend the Kashmir Centre EU event at the European Parliament. He had been here for a few weeks and had meetings with NATO and has met with a few Parliamentarians. He also took a short trip over to Copenhagen where he met with leaders from Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (JUI). He spoke on a panel along with Mr. Ivo Vajg a Member of the European Parliament, Nasim Zehra renowned Pakistani journalist and presenter and Udit Raj from the Indian Justice Party.

Knowing what a controversial figure he is I was expecting a lot of hate speech. I thought he would criticize India and the West for their interference in Pakistan and would go into his usual rant about how the muslims were victims worldwide. But he did none of that instead he talked about the need for Pakistan and India to come back to the negotiating table on Kashmir. Given that both the countries were two of the major players in the region they could benefit from mutual trade hence they should forget the past and not let anything get in the way of peace. He talked about how in Kashmir we consider Indian presence and interference but don’t consider the drone strikes by the US Government to be the same. He emphasized the need for political solutions to these conflicts rather than tired and largely failed military one. He talked about the 1000’s that had been killed and the devastation it has caused. The Mullana urged the US to stand by its principles of democracy and peace and called on it to work under the Human Rights Charter and shed its policy of double standards. His main message was that of dialogue and trust building between all stakeholders in order to better Pakistan’s future.

Now admittedly his message does vary according to his audience, his message for the people back home is considerably different to what he conveyed to the Europeans here in Brussels....
Fidel Guevara
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 21 Jan 2010 19:24
Location: Pandora

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Fidel Guevara »

Go back 50 years...this rare footage from 1961 shows just how close the US and Pakistan really were. No doubt the US was interested to keep Pakistan onboard in the Cold War, but the gala reception, weekend guests at LBJ's ranch, and the ticker tape parade in New York, does indicate real friendship. Interesting video from another era altogether...when the US was all-powerful, the economy was rocking, Islam was an interesting religion of desert warriors, blacks were 2nd class citizens, reporters were called newsMEN, New York cops liked Pakis, and Paki mango abduls were invited to VIP gala dinners.

http://www.texasarchive.org/library/ind ... ident_Ayub

Always a pleasure to hear Kennedy's clipped accent!
MurthyB
BRFite
Posts: 704
Joined: 18 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: "Visa Officer", Indian Consulate #13,451, Khost Province, Afghanistan

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by MurthyB »

Wow, look how long it takes the brave paki fauj to finish off 5 people who are dying on the ground. So much Ak phyrrring



And it turns out they were unarmed :eek:

Chechens killed in Quetta were unarmed: witnesses
The frightened Chechens moved to the nearby FC post, apparently to surrender or take refuge.

They raised their hands as a gesture of surrender but law enforcement personnel opened indiscriminate fire at them,” witness Irfan Khan alleged.
People who witnessed the action of law enforcement personnel expressed doubts about the official claims, saying that no
suicide vests, grenades or weapons were found from the bodies
.

I did not see any suicide jacket or bomb strapped to the bodies,” a senior journalist who was at the place when the incident took place told Dawn.

A senior police officer who had searched the bodies also said not even a knife had been found.
Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Cosmo_R »

The Economist is a paki-ridden LSE (the school) mouthpiece.

^^^Fidel Guevara: John Foster Dulles offered 2X+ the aid/adulation/ticker tape/arms to JLN if India would join in against the 'Godless Commies'. JLN declined the honor but took the PL-480 until he got desperate in 1962 and wrote to Kennedy begging for help. If you were a betting man in the 1960s, Pakistan looked like a winner. India a basket case with people reportedly eating tree bark (Time) because of crop/distribution failures.

One can point to 1961, LBJ and the second class status of African Americans in 1964. However, the LBJ was the guy who introduced more social legislation than all other Presidents combined. And, it is a tribute to the American system that a mere 44 years after the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Obama became President.

You think France, Britain or Europe will have a minority member as head of Government in one's lifetime? In Russia, to be dark-skinned today is to be a second class citizen. Just ask the 'citizens' from the Caucasus. Indians need not apply. In Europe, Indians are job stealers in newspapers if not 'Romanys' on the streets.

The US changes. Europe/Japan/China and even Brazil/Argentina don't.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

Cosmo_R wrote: If you were a betting man in the 1960s, Pakistan looked like a winner. India a basket case with people reportedly eating tree bark (Time) because of crop/distribution failures.
Pakistan really had a nice ride for the last 50 years. This may even continue.
anmol
BRFite
Posts: 1922
Joined: 05 May 2009 17:39

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by anmol »

US Pakistani Relations Beyond Bin Laden
George Friedman
20 May 2011

The past week has been filled with announcements and speculations on how Osama bin Laden was killed and on Washington’s source of intelligence. After any operation of this sort, the world is filled with speculation on sources and methods by people who don’t know, and silence or dissembling by those who do.

Obfuscating on how intelligence was developed and on the specifics of how an operation was carried out is an essential part of covert operations. The precise process must be distorted to confuse opponents regarding how things actually played out; otherwise, the enemy learns lessons and adjusts. Ideally, the enemy learns the wrong lessons, and its adjustments wind up further weakening it. Operational disinformation is the final, critical phase of covert operations. So as interesting as it is to speculate on just how the United States located bin Laden and on exactly how the attack took place, it is ultimately not a fruitful discussion. Moreover, it does not focus on the truly important question, namely, the future of US-Pakistani relations.

Posturing Versus a Genuine Breach

It is not inconceivable that Pakistan aided the United States in identifying and capturing Osama bin Laden, but it is unlikely. This is because the operation saw the already-tremendous tensions between the two countries worsen rather than improve. The Obama administration let it be known that it saw Pakistan as either incompetent or duplicitous and that it deliberately withheld plans for the operation from the Pakistanis. For their part, the Pakistanis made it clear that further operations of this sort on Pakistani territory could see an irreconcilable breach between the two countries. The attitudes of the governments profoundly affected the views of politicians and the public, attitudes that will be difficult to erase.

Posturing designed to hide Pakistani cooperation would be designed to cover operational details, not to lead to significant breaches between countries. The relationship between the United States and Pakistan ultimately is far more important than the details of how Osama bin Laden was captured, but both sides have created a tense atmosphere that they will find difficult to contain. One would not sacrifice strategic relationships for the sake of operational security. Therefore, we have to assume that the tension is real and revolves around the different goals of Pakistan and the United States.

A break between the United States and Pakistan holds significance for both sides. For Pakistan, it means the loss of an ally that could help Pakistan fend off its much larger neighbor to the east, India. For the United States, it means the loss of an ally in the war in Afghanistan. Whether the rupture ultimately occurs, of course, depends on how deep the tension goes. And that depends on what the tension is over, i.e., whether the tension ultimately merits the strategic rift. It also is a question of which side is sacrificing the most. It is therefore important to understand the geopolitics of US-Pakistani relations beyond the question of who knew what about bin Laden.

From Cold to Jihadist War


US strategy in the Cold War included a religious component, namely, using religion to generate tension within the Communist bloc. This could be seen in the Jewish resistance in the Soviet Union, in Roman Catholic resistance in Poland and, of course, in Muslim resistance to the Soviets in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, it took the form of using religious Islamist militias to wage a guerrilla war against Soviet occupation. A three-part alliance involving the Saudis, the Americans and the Pakistanis fought the Soviets. The Pakistanis had the closest relationships with the Afghan resistance due to ethnic and historical bonds, and the Pakistani intelligence service, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), had built close ties with the Afghans.

As frequently happens, the lines of influence ran both ways. The ISI did not simply control Islamist militants, but instead many within the ISI came under the influence of radical Islamist ideology. This reached the extent that the ISI became a center of radical Islamism, not so much on an institutional level as on a personal level: The case officers, as the phrase goes, went native. As long as the US strategy remained to align with radical Islamism against the Soviets, this did not pose a major problem. However, when the Soviet Union collapsed and the United States lost interest in the future of Afghanistan, managing the conclusion of the war fell to the Afghans and to the Pakistanis through the ISI. In the civil war that followed the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, the United States played a trivial role. It was the ISI in alliance with the Taliban — a coalition of Afghan and international Islamist fighters who had been supported by the United States, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan — that shaped the future of Afghanistan.

The US-Islamist relationship was an alliance of convenience for both sides. It was temporary, and when the Soviets collapsed, Islamist ideology focused on new enemies, the United States chief among them. Anti-Soviet sentiment among radical Islamists soon morphed into anti-American sentiment. This was particularly true after the Iraqi Invasion of Kuwait and Desert Storm. The Islamists perceived the US occupation and violation of Saudi territorial integrity as a religious breach. Therefore, at least some elements of international Islamism focused on the United States; al Qaeda was central among these elements. Al Qaeda needed a base of operations after being expelled from Sudan, and Afghanistan provided the most congenial home. In moving to Afghanistan and allying with the Taliban, al Qaeda inevitably was able to greatly expand its links with Pakistan’s ISI, which was itself deeply involved with the Taliban.

After 9/11, Washington demanded that the Pakistanis aid the United States in its war against al Qaeda and the Taliban. For Pakistan, this represented a profound crisis. On the one hand, Pakistan badly needed the United States to support it against what it saw as its existential enemy, India. On the other hand, Islamabad found it difficult to rupture or control the intimate relationships, ideological and personal, that had developed between the ISI and the Taliban, and by extension with al Qaeda to some extent. In Pakistani thinking, breaking with the United States could lead to strategic disaster with India. However, accommodating the United States could lead to unrest, potential civil war and even collapse by energizing elements of the ISI and supporters of Taliban and radical Islamism in Pakistan.

The Pakistani Solution


The Pakistani solution was to appear to be doing everything possible to support the United States in Afghanistan, with a quiet limit on what that support would entail. That limit on support set by Islamabad was largely defined as avoiding actions that would trigger a major uprising in Pakistan that could threaten the regime. Pakistanis were prepared to accept a degree of unrest in supporting the war but not to push things to the point of endangering the regime.



The Pakistanis thus walked a tightrope between demands they provide intelligence on al Qaeda and Taliban activities and permit US operations in Pakistan on one side and the internal consequences of doing so on the other. The Pakistanis’ policy was to accept a degree of unrest to keep the Americans supporting Pakistan against India, but only to a point. So, for example, the government purged the ISI of its overt supporters of radial Islamism, but it did not purge the ISI wholesale nor did it end informal relations between purged intelligence officers and the ISI. Pakistan thus pursued a policy that did everything to appear to be cooperative while not really meeting American demands.


The Americans were, of course, completely aware of the Pakistani limits and did not ultimately object to this arrangement. The United States did not want a coup in Islamabad, nor did it want massive civil unrest. The United States needed Pakistan on whatever terms the Pakistanis could provide help. It needed the supply line through Pakistan from Karachi to the Khyber Pass. And while it might not get complete intelligence from Pakistan, the intelligence it did get was invaluable. Moreover, while the Pakistanis could not close the Afghan Taliban sanctuaries in Pakistan, they could limit them and control their operation to some extent. The Americans were as aware as the Pakistanis that the choice was between full and limited cooperation, but could well be between limited and no cooperation, because the government might well not survive full cooperation. The Americans thus took what they could get.


Obviously, this relationship created friction. The Pakistani position was that the United States had helped create this reality in the 1980s and 1990s. The American position was that after 9/11, the price of US support involved the Pakistanis changing their policies. The Pakistanis said there were limits. The Americans agreed, so the fight was about defining the limits.



The Americans felt that the limit was support for al Qaeda. They felt that whatever Pakistan’s relationship with the Afghan Taliban was, support in suppressing al Qaeda, a separate organization, had to be absolute. The Pakistanis agreed in principle but understood that the intelligence on al Qaeda flowed most heavily from those most deeply involved with radical Islamism. In others words, the very people who posed the most substantial danger to Pakistani stability were also the ones with the best intelligence on al Qaeda — and therefore, fulfilling the US demand in principle was desirable. In practice, it proved difficult for Pakistan to carry out.

The Breakpoint and the US Exit From Afghanistan


This proved the breakpoint between the two sides. The Americans accepted the principle of Pakistani duplicity, but drew a line at al Qaeda. The Pakistanis understood American sensibilities but didn’t want to incur the domestic risks of going too far. This psychological breakpoint cracked open on Osama bin Laden, the Holy Grail of American strategy and the third rail of Pakistani policy.

Under normal circumstances, this level of tension of institutionalized duplicity should have blown the US-Pakistani relationship apart, with the United States simply breaking with Pakistan. It did not, and likely will not for a simple geopolitical reason, one that goes back to the 1990s. In the 1990s, when the United States no longer needed to support an intensive covert campaign in Afghanistan, it depended on Pakistan to manage Afghanistan. Pakistan would have done this anyway because it had no choice: Afghanistan was Pakistan’s backdoor, and given tensions with India, Pakistan could not risk instability in its rear. The United States thus did not have to ask Pakistan to take responsibility for Afghanistan.

The United States is now looking for an exit from Afghanistan. Its goal, the creation of a democratic, pro-American Afghanistan able to suppress radical Islamism in its own territory, is unattainable with current forces — and probably unattainable with far larger forces. Gen. David Petraeus, the architect of the Afghan strategy, has been nominated to become the head of the CIA. With Petraeus departing from the Afghan theater, the door is open to a redefinition of Afghan strategy. Despite Pentagon doctrines of long wars, the United States is not going to be in a position to engage in endless combat in Afghanistan. There are other issues in the world that must be addressed. With bin Laden’s death, a plausible (if not wholly convincing) argument can be made that the mission in AfPak, as the Pentagon refers to the theater, has been accomplished, and therefore the United States can withdraw.

No withdrawal strategy is conceivable without a viable Pakistan. Ideally, Pakistan would be willing to send forces into Afghanistan to carry out US strategy. This is unlikely, as the Pakistanis don’t share the American concern for Afghan democracy, nor are they prepared to try directly to impose solutions in Afghanistan. At the same time, Pakistan can’t simply ignore Afghanistan because of its own national security issues, and therefore it will move to stabilize it.

The United States could break with Pakistan and try to handle things on its own in Afghanistan, but the supply line fueling Afghan fighting runs through Pakistan. The alternatives either would see the United States become dependent on Russia — an equally uncertain line of supply — or on the Caspian route, which is insufficient to supply forces. Afghanistan is war at the end of the Earth for the United States, and to fight it, Washington must have Pakistani supply routes.

The United States also needs Pakistan to contain, at least to some extent, Taliban sanctuaries in Pakistan. The United States is stretched to the limit doing what it is doing in Afghanistan. Opening a new front in Pakistan, a country of 180 million people, is well beyond the capabilities of either forces in Afghanistan or forces in the US reserves. Therefore, a US break with Pakistan threatens the logistical foundation of the war in Afghanistan and poses strategic challenges US forces cannot cope with.

The American option might be to support a major crisis between Pakistan and India to compel Pakistan to cooperate with the United States :eek: . However, it is not clear that India is prepared to play another round in the US game with Pakistan. Moreover, creating a genuine crisis between India and Pakistan could have two outcomes. The first involves the collapse of Pakistan, which would create an India more powerful than the United States might want. The second and more likely outcome would see the creation of a unity government in Pakistan in which distinctions between secularists, moderate Islamists and radical Islamists would be buried under anti-Indian feeling. Doing all of this to deal with Afghan withdrawal would be excessive, even if India played along, and could well prove disastrous for Washington.

Ultimately, the United States cannot change its policy of the last 10 years. During that time, it has come to accept what support the Pakistanis could give and tolerated what was withheld. US dependence on Pakistan so long as Washington is fighting in Afghanistan is significant; the United States has lived with Pakistan’s multi-tiered policy for a decade because it had to. Nothing in the capture of bin Laden changes the geopolitical realities. So long as the United States wants to wage — or end — a war in Afghanistan, it must have the support of Pakistan to the extent that Pakistan is prepared to provide it. The option of breaking with Pakistan because on some level it is acting in opposition to American interests does not exist.

This is the ultimate contradiction in US strategy in Afghanistan and even the so-called war on terror as a whole. The United States has an absolute opposition to terrorism and has waged a war in Afghanistan on the questionable premise that the tactic of terrorism can be defeated, regardless of source or ideology. Broadly fighting terrorism requires the cooperation of the Muslim world, as US intelligence and power is inherently limited. The Muslim world has an interest in containing terrorism, but not the absolute concern the United States has. Muslim countries are not prepared to destabilize their countries in service to the American imperative. This creates deeper tensions between the United States and the Muslim world and increases the American difficulty in dealing with terrorism — or with Afghanistan.

The United States must either develop the force and intelligence to wage war without any assistance, which is difficult to imagine given the size of the Muslim world and the size of the US military, or it will have to accept half-hearted support and duplicity. Alternatively, it could accept that it will not win in Afghanistan and will not be able simply to eliminate terrorism. These are difficult choices, but the reality of Pakistan drives home that these, in fact, are the choices.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60276
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by ramana »

RamaY, Can you do a decision tree on Friedman's take of US options? At a cursory level both options are bad for US per him.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by svinayak »

India should not be part of any US plan
Fidel Guevara
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 21 Jan 2010 19:24
Location: Pandora

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by Fidel Guevara »

Cosmo_R wrote:The Economist is a paki-ridden LSE (the school) mouthpiece.

^^^Fidel Guevara: John Foster Dulles offered 2X+ the aid/adulation/ticker tape/arms to JLN if India would join in against the 'Godless Commies'. JLN declined the honor but took the PL-480 until he got desperate in 1962 and wrote to Kennedy begging for help. If you were a betting man in the 1960s, Pakistan looked like a winner. India a basket case with people reportedly eating tree bark (Time) because of crop/distribution failures.

One can point to 1961, LBJ and the second class status of African Americans in 1964. However, the LBJ was the guy who introduced more social legislation than all other Presidents combined. And, it is a tribute to the American system that a mere 44 years after the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Obama became President.

You think France, Britain or Europe will have a minority member as head of Government in one's lifetime? In Russia, to be dark-skinned today is to be a second class citizen. Just ask the 'citizens' from the Caucasus. Indians need not apply. In Europe, Indians are job stealers in newspapers if not 'Romanys' on the streets.

The US changes. Europe/Japan/China and even Brazil/Argentina don't.
Very true about the US being willing to change, and usually for the better. On the other end of the spectrum, Japan is probably the most inflexible society. We see this in the relatively short recessions in the US, a longer-term malaise in Europe, and the perpetual bear market in Japan over the last 20 years.

I would disagree though, about China and their propensity for change. They went from the Cultural Revolution and the Red Guards to Deng Xiaoping's "it is glorious to be rich" in just 2 decades. Before that they moved from a dynastic, Confucian pushover to a godless Communist thug in an equally short time period.

Pakistan takes the prize of course. They were the darling of the West, with tons of aid and plenty of promise. All it took was a few years of Zia and his policies. Going from ticker tape parades to Armitage bullying Mushy, all within 40 years - got to be the fastest steepest PR decline ever.

Is there any historical parallel for the direction Pakis are headed...any other "avoidable" societal decline into the abyss (excluding sudden collapses ala USSR and the Third Reich, and the inevitable decline of European empires)? Where else have societies chosen to go down a path that they knew would result in their downfall, and still gone down that path?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by shiv »

anmol wrote:
Hmm - Friedman is selling some snake oil here.

He leaves out that component of Pakistani support to jihad that was used against India, and highlight the great importance of the US to Pakistan to "fend off enemy, India". Friedman is choosing to ignore the important fact that Pakistan, for all its supposed dependence on the US, did not trust the US enough to ditch its support for jihad.

To me it seems that Friedman is trying to push the following idea to Pakistan. "We the US will support you against India, but you should give up support to jihad" .This i one solution that Americans are proposing for their Pakistan problem.

In other words the quid pro quo for giving up Islamst jihad is replacement of one anti-India entity (jihadis) with another (USA).

Can anyone see why I support the take over of Pakistan by jihadis?
shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2212
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by shravan »

Members of Saudi consulate leave Karachi
Karachi: After the killing of Saudi diplomat in Karachi, families, additional and non-diplomat staff of Saudi Consulate left Pakistan on Thursday.

According to media reports, a special charted aircraft left from Quaid-e-Azam international airport Karachi with several members of Saudi consulate in Karachi and their families onboard.

Riyadh government is determined to cutoff extra staff from Karachi consulate and decided to call the families and additional diplomatic staff back to Saudi Arabia.
shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2212
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 201

Post by shravan »

MurthyB wrote:Wow, look how long it takes the brave paki fauj to finish off 5 people who are dying on the ground. So much Ak phyrrring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b023VkwLQug
CCPO claim makes killing of Chechens murkier

QUETTA: The run of events that led to the killing of five Chechens two days ago became foggier on Thursday after the police chief of Quetta claimed that they had died because of a bomb explosion and not in shooting by law enforcement agencies. :lol:
Locked