Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 2011

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 May 2011 22:09

http://cablesearch.org/cable/view.php?i ... AMABAD1024
Regarding the prosecution of 26/11 terrorists in Pakistan, Ms Anne Patterson:

Important evidence that links Lakhvi, Shah, and al Qama to the Mumbai attacks remains in the hands of the GOI and the FBI. As previously reported, the FBI awaits GOI approval to pass the evidence it holds to the GOP.

¶7. (C) The GOP has hired a distinguished private attorney Malik Noon to lead its prosecution. The FBI's National Security Law Branch has sent attorney Brian Schilling to help the GOP with evidentiary issues in its prosecution. Schilling will meet with Noon on May 14 to discuss introducing third-country evidence and other procedural hurdles.

STILL WAITING FOR INDIAN EVIDENCE
-----------------------------------

¶8. (C) On May 5, DCM Feierstein contacted Charge Burleigh in New Delhi to request his help in urging the GOI to pass relevant evidence to the GOP. On May 6, Charge Burleigh met with Indian Foreign Secretary Menon and raised the evidentiary cooperation question. Menon replied that the GOI had already requested court permission to send all the documents requested by the GOP. Menon said the Indian judge would proceed at his own pace but that he thought the request was non-controversial and would be granted. Charge Burleigh noted the urgency of the court deadline, and Menon smiled and said he knew of that, but that it was not true that introducing additional evidence after that period (when the charge sheet is submitted) was unusual or difficult. Menon added, "we have the same system and we know how their courts work." Despite Menon's statement, Charge Burleigh pressed for urgent action, but received no firm commitment.

¶9. (C) The GOI has also repeatedly told the GOP that it has already passed all relevant evidence, however, none of the evidence passed to the GOP is judicially certified and thus is inadmissible. For example, the fingerprints of the Mumbai attackers passed to the FIA are blurry photocopies of the original fingerprints. These fingerprint photocopies are neither admissible in court nor can they be used to match fingerprints in Pakistani custody. Based on meetings with Indian Deputy High Commissioner Vohra in Islamabad and information from Legat New Delhi, a possible high-level GOI lack of understanding of evidentiary requirements may be influencing the GOI response to GOP requests.

¶10. (C) The most important items that the FIA or FBI still need (in judicially certified form) from the GOI: -Certified copies of all evidence already passed to the GOP, including forensic analysis, fingerprints, and confession statements -Full interrogation reports of Sabahuddin and Ansari, Indian conspirators in custody -Complete copies of the voice recording of the controllers and attackers during the incident -Sample of Pink IED Box

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2011 22:12

What bull s*it!

As if TSP and US were willing to prosecute the malfactors. And it was onlee the Idnian evidence that was need to clinch the case!

its a case of blame the victim(India) to exonerate the perpetrator(TSP).

What about the David Headley evidence to the Mumbai 26/11 case? Did US share the evidence/testimony with certified copies etc. etc?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 May 2011 22:53

ramana wrote:The old Englsih saying is "Cut the cloth to fit". Modern version would be "Tailor the message to suit the reciepent!"

A_Gupta is right. Dont bring India into discussion even if you know all about TSP perfidy visavis India. That instantly dilutes your message and more importantly your credibility.

A_Gupta is right for the wrong reasons. I am not advocating bringing in India all thje time. In fact, I am enjoying the pummeling TSP is getting. But when they talk about India having to give Kashmir to TSP to solve their TSP woses, thats when India needs to forcefully step in.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 May 2011 22:54

CRamS wrote:
A_Gupta is right for the wrong reasons. I am not advocating bringing in India all thje time. In fact, I am enjoying the pummeling TSP is getting. But when they talk about India having to give Kashmir to TSP to solve their TSP woses, thats when India needs to forcefully step in.

+1
+1

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2011 23:08

CRS, You could have said your message without any judgment on others right?

One needs to not make friends.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 May 2011 23:10

CRamS wrote:
ramana wrote:The old Englsih saying is "Cut the cloth to fit". Modern version would be "Tailor the message to suit the reciepent!"

A_Gupta is right. Dont bring India into discussion even if you know all about TSP perfidy visavis India. That instantly dilutes your message and more importantly your credibility.
A_Gupta is right for the wrong reasons. I am not advocating bringing in India all thje time. In fact, I am enjoying the pummeling TSP is getting. But when they talk about India having to give Kashmir to TSP to solve their TSP woses, thats when India needs to forcefully step in.

Ah, you did not mention J&K in the post I responded to. J&K is difficult to talk about in sound-bites, you will need a few minutes at least. I think the quickest soundbite that Americans can grasp is "We can't have J&K become another Swat" (and India is the guardian against that event) but even that is difficult.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 May 2011 23:14

CRamS and others:

No, we are not helpless.

Have you called your Senators and House Representative? If not yet, please do so.

The fact is, the OBL raid exposed Pakistan's perfidy in supporting terrorism as nothing ever has before. This is not lost on the American janata, even on the sorts of yahoos who never gave a thought to this stuff before. In times of plenty the mango American might have overlooked it, but if the economy stays the way it is, the question of why Pakistan is being given $3B plus a year could become an election issue.

Every one of us resident in the US is capable of doing as described below.

Of course, we are also free to say that it will make no difference... because of geopolitical designs by the State Dept to constrain India, remove Kashmir, overlook Chinese proliferation, enable Paki terrorism etc. etc. etc.

Whether all that is true or not, we owe it to India to do this. It does not matter what the probability of seeing aid to Pakistan cut off, might actually be. An opportunity has come, and as sons and daughters of India we must do our dharma regardless of the likelihood of rewards.

Facebook this! Spread the message. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Declare-P ... 2596271832 Tweet, Facebook, do whatever, but keep the pressure ON! Don't relent!

Request to all U.S. citizens. WRITE/CALL/CONTACT your legislators today and request 1) Stop ALL funding to Pakistan and 2) Declare Pakistan a Terrorist State. Keep the pressure ON!!! Do it today!

Make minimum of two phone calls 1) to your Congressman and 2) to your Senator. They may be reached at:

House of Representatives: http://www.house.gov/representatives/

U.S. Senate: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_i ... rs_cfm.cfm

When calling, don't sound emotional or angry. Be polite, courteous and to the point: Sample call:

Hi, My name is ______________ and I am calling from the Honorable Congressmen's (Senator's) District (State). I wish to register my deep anguish and disappointment that Pakistan has been hiding Bin Ladin all these years and has been playing a double-game with us. More importantly, it is morally reprehensible for me to think that I my money may have funded killing of American soldiers. I request that my congressman (senator) to take two steps immediately. 1) Stop ALL funding to Pakistan and 2) Declare Pakistan a Terrorist State. Please take a moment and write these two points down for the congressman/senator to take action on immediatley. If you wish, I can repeat the two requests/statements again.

(Pause)...Ensure the staffer has written your request.

With your permission, I will call back within a week to determine what steps the honorable ______________ (congressman/senator) has taken
on these two very important requests. Again, my name is ______________ and my telephone number is _______________. The honorable Congreeman/Senator or you may call me anytime. God bless America. Thank you.

(received via email)

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 May 2011 23:34

You do have some help as people are beginning to see through things..:

In a clear sign that Washington is swimming against the tide of popular distaste for Pakistan, a Fox News poll released on Wednesday showed 73% of voters against aid to Islamabad, and only 19% saying US should continue funding . The poll, taken after Osama bin Laden was found living outside Islamabad, showed only 16% considered Pakistan as a US ally in the war on terror, against 74% who did not consider Pakistan a friend.

Fox News said the sentiment is widespread, as majorities of Republicans (84%), Democrats (67%) and independents (66%), as well as both men (73%) and women (73 %) say the US should cut off funding to Pakistan. Democrats (22%) are almost twice as likely as Republicans (12%) and independents (12%) to consider Pakistan a strong ally.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 456394.cms

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2011 23:45

On Fox News last night they had Rumsfield peeking thru his rimless glasses glibly saying no evidence that Pakistan knew about UBL hiding there! (Don't know why they spell it like that when everyone calls him OBL!)

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 May 2011 23:46

harbans wrote:You do have some help as people are beginning to see through things..:

In a clear sign that Washington is swimming against the tide of popular distaste for Pakistan, a Fox News poll released on Wednesday showed 73% of voters against aid to Islamabad, and only 19% saying US should continue funding . The poll, taken after Osama bin Laden was found living outside Islamabad, showed only 16% considered Pakistan as a US ally in the war on terror, against 74% who did not consider Pakistan a friend.

Fox News said the sentiment is widespread, as majorities of Republicans (84%), Democrats (67%) and independents (66%), as well as both men (73%) and women (73 %) say the US should cut off funding to Pakistan. Democrats (22%) are almost twice as likely as Republicans (12%) and independents (12%) to consider Pakistan a strong ally.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 456394.cms

With 3000+ see eye aye officers inside Pakistan and running the foreign policy of Pakistan what can they do.
These public polls are just for pressure tactics/

This reason that Pakistan is weak against India is also a perception built by US for funding Pak military

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2011 23:47

If they really want TSP to take action on the terrorists then they will make them weak wrt India.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 May 2011 23:49

A_Gupta wrote: Ah, you did not mention J&K in the post I responded to. J&K is difficult to talk about in sound-bites, you will need a few minutes at least. I think the quickest soundbite that Americans can grasp is "We can't have J&K become another Swat" (and India is the guardian against that event) but even that is difficult.

Saar, you need to read what I wrote a bit more carefully

. (Incidentally, as an aside, can you tell me how do I quote a post just by its link, instaed of having to cut and paste the whole post?)

This is what I said too after reading the Economist and other trash post OBL. I recall the racist b@#$ards on the Editorial boards of NYT, WP, Economist etc, even as recently as a few years ago would not only do an equal equal between India and TSP on terror, pigLeTs == "Hindu Extremists", they would even contemptuously mock India's claim of TSPA/ISI sponsorpship of terror as "conspiracy theories" being peddled by India. Now the slime balls know, and as you point out, their gall is astounding, they are now justifying TSP use of piglet, its almost as if India can do nothing right, India deserves no justice, and Pakis can do no wrong visa vi India.

And also as somebody else pointed out, it seems to me that the Indian narrative is completely missing. I haven't seen even one op-ed piece in a widely read western rag like NYT, WP, Economist, FT, WSJ etc, by an Indian, forcefully pushing the Indian "we told you so" line. Is it because of lack of access? And even now the audacity of the west peddling Paki paranoia, justifying it shamelessly, and then advocating India give up Kashmir as the solution to reform this rapist of nation, TSP, is breathtaking.

Man, not to sound that anything revolves around me, but I feel so f%^king helpless as I listen to NPR and other news, where this same snake oil is peddled and regurgitated by the well-paid jack asses who call themselves journalists, and there is noting I can do. Very frustrating.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 May 2011 23:53

RudradevJi,

Thanks. Consider it done this evening.

Of course, I have done other things like engaging think tanks etc. Its a total waste of time. They are bought and paid for. Its India TSP equal equal all the way. As I mentioned before, India needs a game changer. Death of OBL and TSP caught with its pants ldown is an opening, but not a game changer IMO.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2011 23:56

CRS that why TSP is looking for Mullah Omar. For to be caught dead in TSP it would really outrage the average Joe.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 May 2011 00:02

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Acharya:Do not bring India into the discussion

Perhaps not aggressively. But Indians/PIO's should not shy away from mentioning Pakistan as an exporter of terror, and calling Pakistan an Islamic state dominated by the military, in contrast to India's democratic, secular pluralism. You should easily be able to say that India is a victim of Islamic terror from Pakistan, and India, no less than the United States or France, does not want military dominated Islamic terrorist states as neighbours.

Be your SDRE selves: unassuming, friendly, knowledgeable, smart and dharmic. The message sticks better when it comes from someone the listener likes and respects. TFTA bluster loses its luster soon.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 May 2011 00:11

Acharya wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:
I see what you are saying, but then, what about the connection between American Jews and Israel? Are Jewish Americans required to refrain from displaying any affinity toward Israel, and merely swallow everything emanating from the White House. It doesn't look that way.
Indians are still working to get accepted in the mainstream. This is a long process and Americans have a different plan on India and some of them say that 1947 is not the final independence of India.

Acceptance in US is not passive. No two communities are the same. Jews are cohesive, highly motivated to defend and protect their people, and consciously leveraged wealth into power and access for their people. Power respects power as prez Kalam always said.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 May 2011 00:14

I think the George Perkovich quote can also be used with great effect when you call into a radio or TV show:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... s-leverage

......aid combined with these other U.S. policies clearly has not changed the Pakistani military’s obsession with contesting India. There is nothing India or the United States can realistically do that will change this self-destructive obsession because the problem is India’s existence itself.

So, e.g., "Without getting into the rights and wrongs about Kashmir, as George Perkovich wrote in The New York Times, the Pakistani army's problem is the existence of India itself. So the Kashmir issue is a mirage."

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 May 2011 00:16

I don't like that quote. GP is rascal. Given a choice he will prefer Indian existence being erased.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 May 2011 00:29

ramana wrote:CRS that why TSP is looking for Mullah Omar. For to be caught dead in TSP it would really outrage the average Joe.

Absolutely. I think TSP has been shaken and humiliated as a result of OBL raid. The one pillar that sustains them, their only elixir, India TSP equal equal is on tenterhooks, and they are working overtime to contain the damage. Whether they will sacrifice Mullah Omar and/or Haqqani is to be seen. But make no mistake about it, TSP is being helped by the India haters that abound in plenty among the US strategic elite. So, its basically a dance between those in US who are outraged at TSP, the US strategic establishment who cannot let go off the TSP narcotic as a tool to contain India after all the billions of investment, and TSP itself. I see the latter 2 working on some kind of a plan to salvage India TSP equal equal but satisfying or at east riding through the anger of the first.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 May 2011 00:43

I bet on TSP taking out Omar. And US drones out a Haqqani.

BTW the silver lining of the MHA mistakes on 50 most wanted list is it buys TSP more time to obfuscate.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 May 2011 00:44

ramana wrote:I don't like that quote. GP is rascal. Given a choice he will prefer Indian existence being erased.

answer to such fraud logic is; that is the reality and they better get used to that.
All kinds of argument about Indian history and such false information to the american public will be sold

India needs to guard itself against such propaganda

They will question India but will never question Pakistan

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 May 2011 00:47

KLNMurthy wrote:
Indians are still working to get accepted in the mainstream. This is a long process and Americans have a different plan on India and some of them say that 1947 is not the final independence of India.

Acceptance in US is not passive. No two communities are the same. Jews are cohesive, highly motivated to defend and protect their people, and consciously leveraged wealth into power and access for their people. Power respects power as prez Kalam always said.

This is OT but we can discuss on another thread.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 May 2011 01:04

Some things are easier explained by stupidity than by malice. Though whatever the intent is re: restoring Pakistani H&D at the cost of India, it is wrong and must be thwarted.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 May 2011 01:34

ramana wrote:BTW the silver lining of the MHA mistakes on 50 most wanted list is it buys TSP more time to obfuscate.

Indeed, but even without those mistakes, you really think TSP will be serioous much less act? They will issue a list of 50 of their own that includes Advani. As you said, lets not drag India while TSP is facing the music, but India's leverage on TSP is a joke, non existant. India's best bet is to hope & pray that the events in the coming months will weaken them.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 21 May 2011 01:47

i dont know if this was posted.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/ ... UV20110520

Pakistan's top military leader not only tacitly agreed to the controversial drone campaign against militants, in 2008 he asked Washington for "continuous Predator coverage" over tribal areas, according to recently released U.S. State Department cables.

ranjbe · Post by **ranjbe** » 21 May 2011 03:03

Article on the so called TSP 'free press':

As the sector has grown, so has its power. "The media is more unrestrained now than ever," says Najam Sethi, a columnist and the editor of the Friday Times in Lahore. "We can get away with murder." Sensationalism abounds, fact-checking is a foreign concept for many outlets, and TV reporters who have rushed in to fill the media vacuum often have no journalistic background. The agency that regulates cable channels, the Pakistan Electronic Media Regulatory Authority, prohibits content that is "defamatory or knowingly false," but it rarely takes action.

Many Pakistani journalists accept gifts from politicians, presumably in exchange for favorable coverage. Less blatant forms of corruption—caving to threats from militant groups after a suicide attack by replacing the word "died" with "was martyred," for example—are common. In the most egregious cases, "reporters" aren't reporters at all but simply businessmen with press cards who use their access to the press to help friends, punish enemies, and blackmail law enforcement . If you're pulled over by a traffic cop and you have a press card, says Jan, you don't have to pay.

http://www.slate.com/id/2294826/pagenum/all/#p2

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 21 May 2011 04:38

Newspaper in Pakistan Publishes WikiLeaks Cables:

The request by General Kayani referred only to unarmed surveillance drones, but the very mention of the army chief’s asking the United States Central Command head at the time, Adm. William J. Fallon, in January 2008 for American surveillance drones is likely to prove embarrassing. The Pakistani military and the civilian government have insisted in public that they do not support the C.I.A. drones that attack militants in the tribal areas, even though they have acquiesced to the strikes in private.

A front-page article in Dawn on Friday said the cables confirmed that the drone strikes within Pakistan had more than just the tacit acceptance of the military leadership. the story quoted Ms. Patterson as saying that the military aide to President Asif Ali Zardari estimated that 60 Pakistani soldiers would have been killed if they had been directed to attack a site that was the target of drones.

Indeed, even the publication of WikiLeaks in Pakistan showed the relationships among the Pakistani elite. The head of the army public information unit who released a statement titled “Contradiction,” saying that General Kayani had not asked for the support of armed drones for military operations, is Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas. He is the brother of Zafar Abbas, the editor of Dawn.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 May 2011 07:07

CRamS wrote:. (Incidentally, as an aside, can you tell me how do I quote a post just by its link, instaed of having to cut and paste the whole post?)

CRS, at the top of every post, just to the left of the word "Posted", you will find a tiny icon. Right click on that and copy the link. That's the URL of the post that you can use in a URL tag.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 21 May 2011 07:32

Kanishka wrote:
Acharya wrote:
Kamran Khan: Pak is a Terrorist State

Someone with good understanding of Urdu should add english subtitles and post it on you tube.
Excellent material. Thanks for posting.

My Urdu is very basic.

Video 1: Kamran Khan: In few words

Tell to the nation honestly that in the 225 attacks no YYY were involved. All were carried out by local Abduls.

Then he goes on to lists the attacks since 1985 to the recent Times Square bomber.
Location 1, Location 2, Location 3, ...........

He states: Everyone is arrested/captured from TSP.
Lists names of captured. ...Abdul 1, Abdul 2, Abdul 3, Abdul 4, Abdul 5, .....

Lists: various embassy/consulate bombings
Embassy 1, Embassy2, Trade mission 1, ............

He states: Where ever bombing/attacks: TAPians are involved in one way or the other: men/planning/ training.

To save TSP at least as good as BD if not India and try to go the 'moderate' islamic countries like Malaysia.

He states: For TSP: It is Now or Never.

TSP is losing its wars on terror for whatever reason.
World sees TSP as the fort/refuge/epicenter of terror.
Because of this reason, keeping the worlds terror aside TSP's back has been broken (by terror).
We have little time left. We have to fight against terror.
--------------------------
My comment:
I generally avoid pakistani PDM, especially after watching that dork Haram Zkhor 1 time (and putting his video that time).

I do not know of his reputation on BRF, but he at least in case, he states as it is, hoping to get the message to the surrounding yahoos.
--------------------------
Video 2: Chaina-TSP deals

Ties between the 2 r higher than 'himaliya' proved once again.
during delicate times. away from US
from isolation.

China said not only will it stand but also on trade, in every manner help TSP
TSPAF planes to get the advanced 50 figher planes.
1000 MgW electricity plant
Flood relief $400 million. ($100 million easy loan $70 million free aid)
connecting gwadar and karachi - technology and skill 'funnny'

TSP-Chini bhai bhai. The 2 appear to be joined with each other

Blah blah of non-compete tender make sure deals don't have kick backs blah. blah..

We are doing a lot of agreements with these Chini-kum chai companies and Chini PSUs.

Make sure these deals are clean since are 'future generations' will pay for it. (my thought: "Hey! don't worry about these, these will be the least of their problems."). Kwality goods....$2000000000000000000 reserves. We are beggers, Chin is the money lender insisting to buy from Chin. Terms on rate of interest decided by (you guessed it) Chin .... We need to make sure the people making deals do not make personal gains....
-----------------------
Remind me, why do you want to listen to this.

Nothing ground breaking here.

Chin will be making a lot of losses here.

Forget what I said about this guy earlier, seems like a regular TSP bum.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 21 May 2011 08:21

Now that there was a dhrona attack on Pakiland, would the real Tarrel than the mountain friend
stand up for its word and attack the US, as an attack on TSP is an attack on China?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 May 2011 08:30

Many Pakistans, so we need many Pakistan policies

He {Shiv Shankar Menon} reminded that New Delhi restarted the dialogue on the basis of former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf's assurance that India would not be targeted by terrorists as long as the talks continued.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 21 May 2011 08:41

Landi Kotal: 15 charred to death in NATO tanker blast

According to sources, miscreants planted a bomb in a parked oil tanker before fleeing the scene.

The bomb went off after a few moments, engulfing one tanker in flames.

Locals gathered around the tanker to acquire the leaked oil, but the tanker blew up due to gas pressure, killing all 15 people present there.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 21 May 2011 08:50

If they really want TSP to take action on the terrorists then they will make them weak wrt India.

Very well put Ramana Ji, this is absolutely true. India has several small countries as neighbours with really no border issues or safety concerns that these countries have. Fact is China hardly has any smaller countryt in it's neighbourhood as it has swallowed them all. Ones like Vietnam and Cambodia lie shattered and China has major border and territorial issues with all smaller nations in the vicinity. So the argument of an existential threat to Pak does not really hold.

There is nothing India or the United States can realistically do that will change this self-destructive obsession because the problem is India’s existence itself.

I find this statement by GP to be completely true specially when 'self destructive obsession' is used within that context. India's existence is beyond question. It's political boundaries may have been contested last 60 years, but not it's own existence. This is because existentially Pakistan is such a fragile glass house by oitself it is untenable to make a case against India in this context. GP, TS or any of the Paki cold warriors in the SD. For Paki agression towards India it is India's existence that it wants and works to erase along with Panda. This is the core truth of the matter and GP raising it should ot matter. To arrive at this truth rather than say solving K will help or Indian concessions in Afghanistan (lines used by TS etc) blah blah..is a big jump to the truth and i for one welcome it. What are your reservations against it? Would be glad to know.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 May 2011 08:53

If people are bored, here is some BENIS worthy discussion.
Shrileen, Rashid Qureshi (former ISPR liar-in-chief), and a ex-PAF air marshal.

Kal Tak 5th May 2011. Everyone is crying about intel failure post OBL attack.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoOZhe1aYKY
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMVmn7a9H3A
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5_CxWfIPvs

Lots of tamasha, lying, some hiding of intel and deployment locations, and shrileen raving and ranting against the fauj (She's taking her revenge for them kicking her on her butt). As usual the PAF walas are the lightly sensible lot in the gang.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 21 May 2011 09:05

Attacks, blasts, firing kill seven in Balochistan

QUETTA - At least seven people were killed, including two personnel of security forces and two others sustained serious injuries in different incidents of hand grenade attack, landmine blast and firing incidents in different towns of Balochistan on Friday.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 May 2011 09:27

Pakistan: ally or adversary?

What about using Western influence on Pakistan's behalf to solve its India problem? First, the West does not have the leverage to compel India to do much of anything vis-à-vis Pakistan; nor does it have an interest in holding relations with India hostage to Pakistani neuralgias. Second, Pakistanis should be careful arguing that Western powers need to choose between strategic partnership with India or Pakistan; Islamabad is unlikely to prevail over New Delhi in this equation. Third, India's prime minister is by all accounts sincere in his desire for normal relations with Pakistan, but the Pakistani military's involvement in the Mumbai attacks of 2008 and other terrorist atrocities have weakened the Indian camp for peace.

Fourth, it seems odd to blame Pakistan's pathologies on a country next door that is democratic, increasingly prosperous, and a global success story. Wouldn't most countries welcome the benefits of closer ties with such a neighbor? Fifth, India is not fated to be some kind of eternal, civilizational enemy to Pakistan -- they have a roughly equal Muslim population and a common history. It is not religion or culture but Pakistan's failures of governance, deployment by the Pakistani state of asymmetric tools like terrorism, and its revanchism over Kashmir that go a long way toward explaining continuing tensions on the subcontinent.

Sixth, the closest India and Pakistan have come to a settlement of their long-running conflict over Kashmir occurred from 2004 to 2007, when Washington pursued a policy of "dehyphenation" that improved relations with both Pakistan and India independently, without holding ties with one hostage to the other. This suggests that returning to a policy of linkage would, as in the past, produce the opposite effect.

In the long-term, the goal of the West must be to build up Pakistani civilian institutions to counter-balance control of foreign policy by the army and the intelligence services. In the near term, continued training and close engagement with the Pakistani military can be combined with continuing pressure in the form of drone strikes against terrorists taking sanctuary in Pakistan. Avoiding a precipitous Western withdrawal from Afghanistan is also vital.

Politically, a key goal must be to decouple the leadership of the Afghan Taliban from its Pakistani minders. Reports that Afghan Taliban commanders have chafed under Pakistani tutelage suggest that such an opening is ripe -- and could tilt the balance towards an Afghan political settlement that does not grant Pakistan overlordship of its neighbor but instead strengthens Afghan sovereignty.

Sooner or later, India's successful ascent combined with progress in Afghanistan should suggest to Pakistan's military masters that a foreign policy predicated on exporting terror to its near neighbors is self-defeating. Perhaps only then will Pakistan play its part in reconciling with India and Afghanistan in a way that promotes the economic integration of South and Central Asia, creating a regional hub of dynamism and growth that is more conducive to its people's aspirations.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 21 May 2011 10:45

The reason Americans do a equal equal w/ India & TSP is that they have bought the tale that this is a fight between Hindu's & Muslim's, two religious entities.

The best way to counter this is to say that India is opposed to the ideology of TSP, namely that people of different faiths can not and should not live together. This is the reason one or the other must prevail and it is a fight to the finish. This forces them to logically choose India. Very effective in my experience.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 21 May 2011 10:48

SSridhar wrote:Many Pakistans, so we need many Pakistan policies
He {Shiv Shankar Menon} reminded that New Delhi restarted the dialogue on the basis of former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf's assurance that India would not be targeted by terrorists as long as the talks continued.

That statement looks more like a US SD issued warning through Musharraf than his original work.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 May 2011 11:09

Theo_Fidel wrote:The reason Americans do a equal equal w/ India & TSP is that they have bought the tale that this is a fight between Hindu's & Muslim's, two religious entities.

Yes, its just the colonial racist outlook they have towards non Europeans. Lets not even try to spin it. With the # of Indians in US in every walk of life, not to mention Indian footprints like yoga etc, you would have expected that Indians would be viewed differently, but in the gora minds, its India and Paaaaaakistaaaan equal equal. Its a waste of time trying to change that attitude, let them come to the correct realization if they want to.

The best way to counter this is to say that India is opposed to the ideology of TSP, namely that people of different faiths can not and should not live together. This is the reason one or the other must prevail and it is a fight to the finish. This forces them to logically choose India. Very effective in my experience.

I don't mean to be rude, but what were you smoking when you wrote this? Do you honestly believe that ordinary whites really give a rat's behind about grandiose notions of secularism, democracy etc. You really think average joe six pack sits down at his dinner table and really worries about the need for different faiths to live together and hence India must be supported instead of TSP? Give me a break.

American interests rein supreme, not any of the other PR nonsense they trot. Nothing wrong with that. Its up to India to stand up and say, we appreciate and respect your need to secure your interests, but they cannot be at the expense of India, especially so when what we are talking is US aiding and abetting TSP terror against India.

vanand · Post by **vanand** » 21 May 2011 11:51

SSridhar wrote:Many Pakistans, so we need many Pakistan policies
He {Shiv Shankar Menon} reminded that New Delhi restarted the dialogue on the basis of former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf's assurance that India would not be targeted by terrorists as long as the talks continued.

The ongoing talks with Pak is of either India succumbed to this black mail or might be India US pact for keeping Kashmir out Afghan tug of war between US and Pak. But India had done a tough talk with US on Kashmir.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/the-india- ... epage=true

Today Hindu sheds few good info from Wikileak