Indian Military Aviation

[Karan M]

Its RDY2 not RDY3. Only one single article in AWST originally said RDY3 which was quoted by media repeatedly and then got picked up again and again. The original news may be found here:

http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-ne ... no_cache=1

In early July 2007, Dassault, Thales and HAL signed a partnership deal, submitting an offer to the Indian air force covering a Mirage 2000 upgrade immediately afterward. The proposed upgrade is based on the RDY-2 radar and is an adaptation of the existing 2000-5 Mk 2 and 2000-9 configurations, albeit with provisions to integrate existing and planned Indian equipment. The team must respond to an official request for information by the end of this month, following which the Indian government will decide whether to proceed. According to vice president, electronic combat solutions at Thales Aerospace, Gérard Christmann, that decision is expected toward the end of this year or early in 2009.

The range given by Defense News, 70 nm@look down mode is clearly RDY2. This is greater than the RDY range itself, and the RDY 2 brought in approximately 10-15% more range.

Coming to the MiG-29:
- Zhuk ME PESA radar

No, MSA. Zhuk MF/MFE was PESA, now dropped for Zhuk AE. Indian plane has more mature Zhuk ME

- unknown update to EW and self-defence systems

DARE Self Protection suite visible on first prototype. Indian made EW receiver and controller, linked to Italian AESA jammers for near 360 deg azimuth coverage.

- NO known change in the engine to a later version like rd33mk3 seen on Mig29K ? - maybe some EDE mods?

New engines for MiG-29 upgrade are included. Deal separately signed with HAL to license produce them. RD33 Series 3 engines.

[Singha]

didnt understand your line about the radar. does it have MSA or ME (is it pulse doppler or pesa? same radar as IN Mig29K) and how does it compare to RDY2 pulse doppler?

[Karan M]

I should have been clearer...its Zhuk ME - a MSA, not PESA. The PESA version, from old editions of Flight, Janes was the MF/MFE which was dropped when the company started working on Zhuk AE for the MMRCA tender. There are no more reports of Zhuk MFE trials anymore.

The Zhuk ME is the same radar on the MiG-29K, but the IAF should be getting a more advanced version with more advanced processors and more modes (AWST). Variant in current production is Zhuk M1E, whereas IAF specific modification is referred to as Zhuk M2E. In terms of performance the RDY2 and Zhuk M2E are very comparable, similar ranges, modes and other details. The RDY2 should be more compact and lighter though.

[pragnya]

the Mirage upg also features 'increased fuel capacity' as per this slightly older report.

The upgrades include:

- New avionics, including an advanced navigation system, mission computers, Mil 1553 B data with Digibus, a pulse doppler radar that can find objects out to 70 nautical miles

- Two displays and an advanced head-down display in a glass cockpit

- Electronic warfare systems, including new radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers, an integrated missile warning receiver with continuous time-to-impact information, and new jammers and countermeasure systems

- Increased fuel capacity

- Four Derby beyond-visual-range missiles

- Two short-to-medium-range Python V missiles

- Long-range smart munitions

- Full mission simulators

http://ceoworld.biz/ceo/2009/12/11/indi ... with-india

CFTs?? or does it mean additional wet points?? since change in internal volume will mean design changes meaning more time and money. can somebody clarify??

note the missiles mentioned - Derby/Python..

if Mica ends up costly, may be these could be the options. however i admit this is slightly older report and things may have changed up till now.

though not specific some other reports too allude to this 'increasd fuel capacity' but they call it 'extended operating envelope' as in this report -

Aviation Week reports

"New capabilities for the Mirage will include longer-range detection and weapon firing against multiple targets, as well as an extended operating envelope that allows for border-protection missions using two Mirages instead of six.

The multitrack RDY-3 radar to be installed in the Mirage is the same generation the French air force is using on its M-2000D, with increased range compared with the existing Doppler multifunction system."

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4650

[Singha]

maybe it means will use the bigger 2 x wing drop tanks seen in french service and the third drop tank under fuselage that french use which I think the IAF 2000H does not.
IAF M2k: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... e_2000.jpg
the 2000D seems to have fatter fuel tanks imo with a noticeable benis type expanded diameter in the tip
http://www.snapshot-air.com/photosMD102 ... 07PRMD.jpg

also seems to have a huge belly tank F16 style though maybe used for ferry missions only (not too many pix)
http://www.traditions-air.fr/images/avi ... e2000n.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DOqSTiSBP3U/S ... 1600/9.jpg

[pragnya]

maybe it means will use the bigger 2 x wing drop tanks seen in french service and the third drop tank under fuselage that french use which I think the IAF 2000H does not.
IAF M2k: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... e_2000.jpg
the 2000D seems to have fatter fuel tanks imo with a noticeable benis type expanded diameter in the tip
http://www.snapshot-air.com/photosMD102 ... 07PRMD.jpg

also seems to have a huge belly tank F16 style though maybe used for ferry missions only (not too many pix)
http://www.traditions-air.fr/images/avi ... e2000n.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DOqSTiSBP3U/S ... 1600/9.jpg

thanks. was thinking along the same lines.

the new upgrade will entail 2 additional stores bringing the total to 9 (7 originally iirc) - 5 under the fuselage and 4 under the wings.

The Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 provides nine hard-points for external stores (five under its belly, four under its wings). These hard-points can be used to attach weapons, pods, launchers, jettisonable external tanks or pylons, or for carrying various combinations of external stores, up to 6.3 metric tons, including 'smart' weapons for a wide variety of operational requirements:

The non-French weapons can be integrated more easily.

The installation of specialised pods allows using the aircraft for dedicated missions such as electronic reconnaissance or in-flight buddy-buddy refuelling of other aircraft.

The underwing store stations are thereby available to carry 1,700 or 2,000 litres fuel drop tanks, providing the aircraft with increased range.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/def ... s.html?L=1

any idea what is the drop tank capacity used in IAF Mirages presently??

also the UAE Mirages 2000-9 are considered most advanced in the family.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/def ... 9.html?L=1

is the indian upgrade similar?? in the absence of upgrade details it is a bit difficult to guess.

[jai]

^^ Well, so we can safely assume that the Jags will not see a new engine for next 3-4 years atleast and by the time they choose one, MoF will say that jags are anyways nearing retirement and so, don't bother with re-engine procedure.

Amazing how we don't even need external agents to shoot ourself in the foot when it comes to defence procurement.

That, or, that this will go the FMS route to Honeywell - part of the apeasement drive - which can be a good thing if IAF can get the engines quickly.

[Singha]

the honeywell engine I thought was the better/modern one - albeit RR is much more familiar with the overall Jaguar program being the incumbent from day1.

part of having the 100+ Jags roam far and wide over Tibet is having this new enhanced thrust engine.

[maitya]

M2K upg http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... ext-02891/

- RDY3 radar (said to be cost optimized lesser perf version of the RDY2)
- glass cockpit
- new EW system (probably ICMS mk3 seen in french AF M2K-5)
- Mica capability (separately billed under $700 mil deal - but the page above claimed the 2.2 bil figure INCLUDES the 700 mil for Mica..which would make it a more believeable 1.5 bil )
- helmet sight (something from Thales topsight family?)
- datalink - the M2K-5 has some airborne datalink that permits 8 of them to network together...this would be there plus the indian fighter ODL radio modem type stuff one would think.
- zero hour the airframe
- no engine changes
- no additional fuel tank enlargements
- it already has AAR in IAF and already has litening pod and LGBs from paveway2 and matra BGL family.
- no mention of AASM
- no mention of replacing the matra M550 with a newer weapon like iris-T, python5 or asraam.

Singhaji, here's quoting an April'10 post of mine (which in turn referenced an excellent link by Kartik):
==============================================

Kartik wrote:

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Kartik I asked question to you few posts back, I think you missed it. Would be nice if you will answer

Hi Manish. Sorry I didn't see it earlier. If you go through this great article you'll find answers to all your questions on why a Mirage-2000H upgraded to Mirage-2000-5 Mk2 levels will be deadly. In every way, its on par with the F-16 Block 52+ Advanced that the PAF is now acquiring.

Kartik, thanks a lot for that link - very good data point!!

Now quoting my earlier post:

maitya wrote:
Quite a bit has been written about this M2K upgrade, but have not seen a single site/news-item/report that chronicles the exact subsystems being made part of this upagrade (I used to have a a few bits of nuggets in my HDD, before it crashed ).

However there's has been some confirmatory comments like,

Quote:
“Under the upgrade, the entire airframe will be stripped down to be re-wired and re-equipped with new avionics, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and of course weapon systems to extend and enhance the operational life of the multi-role fighters.”

but never a comprehensive list of the subsystems that is being made part of this upgrade.

So here's another attempt:
1) Radar - RDY MK2
2) New Missile system - MICA (including IR version)
3) Countermeasure - Integrated countermeasures system (ICMS) Mk4 from Thomson-CSF
4) Navigation - Sextant Avionique’s Totem 3000 ring laser gyro INS
5) Datalink - Joint tactical information data link system (JTIDS)
6) HMS - Topsight E helmet-mounted sight/display
7) Cockpit Display and MC - Rafale's MDPU
8 ) A brand new 1553 digibus

But nothing really new to the AG capability - IAF seems to be happy with their Litening-II pods.

Also no confirmation on,
1) any active or passive MAWS - atleast DDM-SAMIR/DDM-NG type IR based system
2) any internal SPJ
3) no IRST system (this is confirmed)

So, prima facie, this French-Indian consortium including Dassault (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator), MBDA (missiles) and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited based upgrade is a very very comprehensive upgrade (specially on the AA areas).

Now, my pet peeve - is it still worth $40mil/aircraft upgrade?

Only time will tell I guess!!

Regarding confirmation on
1) passive MAWS - from the above article posted by Kartik

Quote:
The ICMS includes three radar warning receivers of the instantaneous wideband and super-heterodyne types
<snip>
They are complemented by two passive infrared receivers to detect missile launch plumes.

But still no confirmation on DDM-SAMIR/DDM-NG type subsystem which not only would detect the missile launch but also track it during the propulsion phase.

2) any internal SPJ - from the above article posted by Kartik

Quote:
The French Air Force has preferred to keep the self-protection system already employed on the Mirage 2000 DA.
<snip>
... comprises a Serval radar warning detector, a Sabre jammer and Spirale decoy launchers

So ICMS-Mk4 will surely include an internal SPJ and alongwith an integrated RWR and chaff-flare dispensers.

Some more information on Sabre ...

Quote:
Modular high performance ESM and jamming system covering 0.5 – 18 GHz (option to 40 GHz). Automatically identifies and tracks emitters. Uses a phased-array transmitter with high ERP, interoperable with phased-array radars. Steerable antenna has polarisation control. Jammer uses advanced DRFM-based techniques generator plus a wide range of noise and deception techniques. Accuracy 2 deg RMS. Sensitivity -60 dBm. Dynamic range 60 dB. Processing time <1 s. Jammer offers diverse modes over 7.5 – 18 GHz using phased array and steerable antennas.

Thales Aerospace Division
Source Electronic Warfare - Handbook 2008

Good!!
=========================================

Thought it'll be relevant here.

(Betw, how do you quote a post from a locked thread?)

[srai]

the Mirage upg also features 'increased fuel capacity' as per this slightly older report.

...

- Increased fuel capacity

...

Aviation Week reports

"New capabilities for the Mirage will include longer-range detection and weapon firing against multiple targets, as well as an extended operating envelope that allows for border-protection missions using two Mirages instead of six.

The multitrack RDY-3 radar to be installed in the Mirage is the same generation the French air force is using on its M-2000D, with increased range compared with the existing Doppler multifunction system."

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4650

If the two "bolded" snippets are to be tied together, the old reports indicate IAF's M2K upgrade to be more like that of the Mirage-2000D strike variant. RDY-3 radar is supposedly optimized for low terrain flying for strike missions.

RDY-3 - airborne fire control radar

Brochures:
RDY-3 - Thales
RDY-2

[Singha]

the RDY2 has been in service on 2000-5 since mid-late 90s now. maybe the RDY3 is a refresh of that using newer tech that also makes it lighter and more maintainable (less parts).

[putnanja]

From LiveFist ....

Commercial Talks Begin For IAF Basic Trainer

...
The government will now choose between (in photos from top) the Pilatus PC-21, Hawker-Beechcraft T-6C Texan-II and Korean Aerospace KT-1. More soon.
...

[Karan M]

RDY3 is generally assumed to be renamed RC400. RC400 was a derivative of the RDY, intended to offer around 70-80% of the performance at significantly less cost, using more inexpensive systems and components. The Aviation Week story is the only one to mention the RDY3. Every other report noted the Mirage 2000's would get the Dash 5 upgrade with a RDY2 radar. The other issue is range. Given a claim of 70 nm look down against clutter, range usually specified against fighter class targets, this means a range greater than or equal to the RDY, only possible (at least from what is publically known) with the RDY2 if the former, and not bad at all if the latter since the RDY was a fairly good radar to begin with.

RDY3 comes up in a reference here:
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4703778
Its not an A2G optimized system but one which was intended to give the M2000D's A2A capabilities "complete mission change" per the French AF

If the range specifications (as given in DN are correct), then irrespective of designation, 2 or 3, its a very capable radar. 70 nm against clutter is a very respectable number, which should translates to 130 km look down or 130 km in the presence of electronic clutter (ie ECM) in look up.

Whereas, the APG-68 V(9) is supposed to have around a range of 90- 105 km for a 5 Sq Mtr target in look up.

[Karan M]

RDY3=RC400
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Pages/Soluti ... 3&pid=1568
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Pages/Soluti ... 8&pid=1568

RDY3 performance
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/19 ... radar.html

It would have presumably been improved over the 11 years since then, but there are a couple of key areas where clearly the RDY2 is ahead.

[ramana]

Goodbye jag Engine tender

Both engine makers withdrew

CJ. RR withdrew and IAF withdrew the tender. RR was giving a less powerful engine.

Most likely RR knew how to game the system. By withdrawing it forced the IAF to waste more time in retendering.

Best option is go with the Honeywell engine. Its ~30% more thurst. RR typically underpowers the planes. Atleast you have a better plane for the duration of its airframe life.

Also need to relook at the procdures that demand two vendors. Most likely need more than two vendors for this type of hardware to prevent blackmail.

[srai]

Goodbye jag Engine tender

Both engine makers withdrew

CJ. RR withdrew and IAF withdrew the tender. RR was giving a less powerful engine.

Most likely RR knew how to game the system. By withdrawing it forced the IAF to waste more time in retendering.

Best option is go with the Honeywell engine. Its ~30% more thurst. RR typically underpowers the planes. Atleast you have a better plane for the duration of its airframe life.

Also need to relook at the procdures that demand two vendors. Most likely need more than two vendors for this type of hardware to prevent blackmail.

If it comes down to one vendor remaining because of other vendors withdrawing (or blacklisted), the tendering should automatically go towards the FMS route -- government to government deal.

[andy B]

Credits to: Lysenko Sergey from keypubs onlee.

[jaladipc]

Goodbye jag Engine tender

Both engine makers withdrew

How much of the modification part does it need if one has to put two dry kaveri turbofan in place of current jag engines (with afterburners)?
Length wise it might be okay with a kaveri(no afterburner). but it makes upto nearly 10 inches more in dia compared to the current ones.
Maybe one has to go through a complete upg with extra fuel capacity due to the improved thrust of two dry kaveris.Kaveri being a flat rated might be a best choice for Jags doing a lo profile strikes?
P.S: It was thinking this might have been posted in a noobie thread

[krishnan]

What's that on top of the cockpit of the MiG-29 trainer?

Admin Note: Please don't repeat images on the same page...not everyone has fast internet connections.

[Singha]

telescope for the rear seat instructor to get a better fwd view as the trainee pilot flares the plane nose up for landing.
the droopy nose of the su27 family does not need that.

[Singha]

at one point the pakis were crowing about the RC400 being on the Bandar. if its coming to our M2K upg and given the lack of chatter about french avionics on bandar lately that deal must have fallen through on funding front. the Selex cost contained aesa radar whose name I cant recall now was also slated for the bandar.

from that to begging for chini KLJ handouts is a long and painful journey

[Shrinivasan]

In one cruelly Chankian way I am happy that the IAF did not shortlist the teens, otherwise Pakis would use their lagori equal equal logic and demand the same plane for free!!! let them try it with the French, they wont even get a spanner for free.

[chackojoseph]

Also need to relook at the procdures that demand two vendors. Most likely need more than two vendors for this type of hardware to prevent blackmail.

With Single vendor, we can go FMS route. IMO.

[Karan M]

Singha, yes that could indeed be the case. But I do hope the original upgrade plan was approved as is & we went with the RDY2 itself. I also wonder how many other goodies are coming along with the Mirage deal, ie AASMs. The Mirage 2000-5 can carry upto 8. Also, the EW system on the Mirage upgrade will be the ICMS Mk4, the latest of Thales frontline EW internal suite for the Mirage family.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... rance.html

ICMS is an integrated, internally-mounted EW suite that Thales France and MBDA France have developed for use on the Mirage 2000 multirole combat aircraft. Within the architecture, all subsystems are linked by a Thales-developed central interface and management unit and there is a three element warning receiver chain. Here, the specific equipments comprise a version of the Thales France's Serval radar warner, a superheterodyne unit (to detect continuous wave radar, pulse compressed and low-power pulse Doppler signals) and a receiver/processor (mounted in the aircraft nose) to detect missile command links. The MBDA DDM-SAMIR Infra-Red (IR) missile warner can be incorporated if required and the system's active Radio Frequency (RF) jamming capability centres on two Thales ABD-type detector-jammers, each of which incorporates its own receiver chain to facilitate functionality if the architecture's basic radar warning receiver capability fails. Each ICMS detector-jammer consists of a high-frequency unit to counter air-to-air/surface-to-air threats and a low-frequency unit for use against surface-to-air threats in the lower part of the RF spectrum. An internally-mounted MBDA SPIRALE CounterMeasure Dispensing System (CMDS) provides the suite's passive chaff and IR decoy flare capability and in its latest configuration (the ICMS Mk 3), the architecture is equipped with an improved radar warning capability (via the incorporation of an instantaneous frequency measuring facility and digital receiver technology), digital RF memory technology (for the active jamming function) and an ÉCLAIR-M CMDS to supplement the original SPIRALE capability. ICMS Mk 3 is also noted as being able to perform electronic support functions

[pragnya]

Singha, yes that could indeed be the case. But I do hope the original upgrade plan was approved as is & we went with the RDY2 itself. I also wonder how many other goodies are coming along with the Mirage deal, ie AASMs. The Mirage 2000-5 can carry upto 8. Also, the EW system on the Mirage upgrade will be the ICMS Mk4, the latest of Thales frontline EW internal suite for the Mirage family.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... rance.html

ICMS is an integrated, internally-mounted EW suite that Thales France and MBDA France have developed for use on the Mirage 2000 multirole combat aircraft. Within the architecture, all subsystems are linked by a Thales-developed central interface and management unit and there is a three element warning receiver chain. Here, the specific equipments comprise a version of the Thales France's Serval radar warner, a superheterodyne unit (to detect continuous wave radar, pulse compressed and low-power pulse Doppler signals) and a receiver/processor (mounted in the aircraft nose) to detect missile command links. The MBDA DDM-SAMIR Infra-Red (IR) missile warner can be incorporated if required and the system's active Radio Frequency (RF) jamming capability centres on two Thales ABD-type detector-jammers, each of which incorporates its own receiver chain to facilitate functionality if the architecture's basic radar warning receiver capability fails. Each ICMS detector-jammer consists of a high-frequency unit to counter air-to-air/surface-to-air threats and a low-frequency unit for use against surface-to-air threats in the lower part of the RF spectrum. An internally-mounted MBDA SPIRALE CounterMeasure Dispensing System (CMDS) provides the suite's passive chaff and IR decoy flare capability and in its latest configuration (the ICMS Mk 3), the architecture is equipped with an improved radar warning capability (via the incorporation of an instantaneous frequency measuring facility and digital receiver technology), digital RF memory technology (for the active jamming function) and an ÉCLAIR-M CMDS to supplement the original SPIRALE capability. ICMS Mk 3 is also noted as being able to perform electronic support functions

Karan M, just a clarification.

the article refers to it as ICMS mark 3. this is on the Thales site too (Intelligence on board Mirage 2000) -

Self-protection

• Integrated countermeasures systems, including latest-generation ICMS Mk3

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Case_Studies ... irage2000/

[Karan M]

Hi Pragnya,

Thales is now advertising ICMS 4 for the Mirage upgrade. The MK3 is now superseded.
http://www.thalesgroup.com/aerospace/st ... sentation/

Check out the Mirage 2000 section.

I gave the Janes link as a bit of info about what the ICMS contains.

[pragnya]

Hi Pragnya,

Thales is now advertising ICMS 4 for the Mirage upgrade. The MK3 is now superseded.
http://www.thalesgroup.com/aerospace/st ... sentation/

Check out the Mirage 2000 section.

thanks Karan. well prepared as always. appreciate that.

just for reference the ICMS on the Mirage. some brochure details here -

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Pages/Soluti ... 4&pid=1498

page 5.

I gave the Janes link as a bit of info about what the ICMS contains.

no issue with that. understand that.

[Manish_Sharma]

Can't find the article I read regarding RDY2 development. It was said to be much more advanced than RDY3 and specially developed for some arab country, in fact the arabs paid for its development so they have some sort of rights over it. Everytime french sell it they have to pay some money to arabs.

Especially in a2g modes RDY2 is much better then RDY3. I hop MoD approves funds for RDY2 and Mica and doesn't fall for RDY3 or Derby missile just 'cause they are cheaper.

IAF with its 33 or 34 squadrons against joint i don't know 80 or 90 squadrons of porki-panda needs the best. If not in numbers then least we can do is provide them the best available.

[srai]

Can't find the article I read regarding RDY2 development. It was said to be much more advanced than RDY3 and specially developed for some arab country, in fact the arabs paid for its development so they have some sort of rights over it. Everytime french sell it they have to pay some money to arabs.

...

UAE wants its fighters its own way

...
It also came with enlarged primary fuel tanks, freeing up space on the underside of the fighter jet for additional weaponry. US media noted at the time that this sale to the UAE was "the first time the US has sold a better aircraft overseas than its own forces fly". And if Lockheed Martin sells Block 60 F-16s to other countries, the UAE stands to earn substantial royalties. This is already the case with the Mirage 2000, which Dassault sold to the UAE in the late 1980s, and again in the late 1990s.

After funding several upgrades to the Mirage, including its weapons system, radar, avionics and electronic warfare, the UAE earned hundreds of millions of dollars in royalties from subsequent sales, according to Mr al Bu-Ainnain. Now, UAE interest in the Rafale has attracted international attention, and not just because the Emirates is coming off multibillion-dollar purchases of the F-16 and the Mirage within the past 11 years.
...

[andy B]

Gents in the latest AFM there's a nice spread on the M2000D model of the French AF.

It also mentions that going forward the AG role of the D model will be taken over by the Rafale and the Antelope radar optimised for low level flying, SAR etc will be replaced by RDY3 model.

It further mentions that the RDY3 is very similar to the RDY radar that the M2000-5 carries and has long range missile guidance hardware and will also recieve MICA IR/EM just FYI onlee.

[Singha]

smells like RDY3 = RDY2 + better lo-lo-lo A2G skills + missile datalink for mica + maybe less raw A2A range

[Karan M]

thanks Karan. well prepared as always. appreciate that.

Thanks & for the link as well.

smells like RDY3 = RDY2 + better lo-lo-lo A2G skills + missile datalink for mica + maybe less raw A2A range

It is a less capable variant, simply put. While a lot of the software would directly customized from what is on the RDY/RDY2 family, the hardware is not as capable. The RDY2 is the best radar in the RDY series, even in the lo-lo-lo roles. On the flip side, the French did choose the RDY3, funds permitting for their Mirage 2000D upgrade, so it should be reasonably effective.

[Khalsa]

Is that a brand new Mig-29 UB trainer ?
If yes then have we have lost one in accident ?
If no then god why redo the whole body ?

As part of this upgrade are we buying any new aircrafts to cover for attrition ...
actually does the IAF buy continually to cover for attrition or does it buy in packs (such as wait for the time till you have lost 4 aircrafts and then order 4)

[Gurneesh]

^^^

The contract involves resetting the airframe life to zero. Which means removing fatigued structural parts and putting in new ones. So, paint needs to be removed and then reapplied after all bad parts are replaced.

[Austin]

IAF Chief was flight demonstrated PAK-FA and Mig-29UPG at Gromov

"On the territory of the Flight Research Institute named after Gromov in Zhukovsky near Moscow was presented and flight demonstration of promising air complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA) and the upgraded fighter aircraft MiG-29UPG Indian delegation was headed by the commander of the Air Force Pradeep Vasant Naik," - said in a statement .

[ASPuar]

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ss/794597/

BSF writes to govt on 'Dhruv' choppers
Agencies
May 21, 2011
New Delhi

The Border Security Force (BSF) has written to the Government for replacing indigenous 'Dhruv' helicopters saying they did not fulfil its operational requirement.

"The Advanced Light Helicopters- Dhruv-- are not helpful in our operations like casualty evacuation and troop reinforcements. They are useless for us. Most of the times these helicopters are under servicing and there are issues about its capabilities to fly beyond a certain height," BSF sources said.

"We have informed the Home Ministry in this regard. The helicopter keeps developing regular snags," they said.

The air wing in these naxal-affected areas is under the command of the Border Security Force (BSF) and is used by the personnel of CRPF, ITBP, SSB and state police forces.

The BSF air fleet at present has six ALH 'Dhruvs' and two more will soon be inducted.

The Home Ministry, meanwhile, has also finalised a deal to lease six additional helicopters from a private vendor after a tender in this regard was floated last year by the government.

"These helicopters will be in place by June this year and will help security forces deployed for anti-naxal operations,"the sources said.

The present fleet of 'Dhruvs' placed in Raipur (Chhattisgarh) and Ranchi (Jharkhand) are also out of work due to reasons of want of spare parts or requirements of servicing.

The BSF air fleet, according to sources, will also be inducting a large transport plane as the two Avros that it has are non-operational due to technical reasons.

Whats the deal here? IN has also largely rejected Dhruv, according to some reports...

[Rahul M]

this is a machine that 2 EXTREMELY demanding users, IA and IAF are very happy with. something tells me the problem lies with bsf itself. in this case I won't be surprised at all if some palm greasing is at play.

>> IN has also largely rejected Dhruv, according to some reports...
for entirely different reasons. let's put things in context, shall we ?
they expected a light helo like dhruv to do the job of a helo twice its weight, the sea king and it came very close to achieving it. it speaks volumes about its capability as a helo.

[ASPuar]

I asked the question, Rahul, precisely because of the reasons you have so kindly elucidated above. I recently posted a mission army clip from NatGeo which had the Army pilots seem genuinely quite pleased with the new capabilities the Dhruv brought to the table, and also praising its performance under strain in high altitude.

Given that the army operates these aircraft even at SIACHEN (altitudes above 20,000 ft), where no BSF is to be seen at all, I am a bit puzzled at what high altitudes the BSF is unable to conquer with it in CI ops in Chattisgarh.

As to the Navy situation, I am not aware of the full facts, but given that the Navy has plenty of clever people working for it, Im sure they could calculate a load factor before hand? It seems that endurance, and storability (folding blades) are some of the issues there. I dont think they had ever planned to replace the SeaKing series with the Dhruv, rather, the Alouette III.

[Austin]

The IN did not accept dhruv because , it lacked the persistent they needed , could not solve the vibration issue , they needed folded wings which would have added weight and added performance penalty.

Its I think more of HAL inablity to rectify these navalised issue associated with naval platforms then Dhruv as a platform itself , In russia too only Kamov bureau have navalised platform expertise where Mil fails to deliver.

Dhurv was never a Sea King replacement as they are in different class of choppers.

[Rahul M]

it was not due to load factor but some space issues that seems to have been overlooked (I don't know who is responsible, because IN did have its people in the project, as it always does). I am sure you have heard of the problems with the folding blades ?

there was also a vibration issue that seems to have been solved. don't write it off yet, it might not replace the sea king (personally I think that was always a bad idea) but there are other roles for it in the navy.

Austin, dhruv was meant to be a sea king replacement even though it belonged to a different class. only when it became clear that won't be possible that IN released a RFP for medium helo's.