LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 May 2011 06:48

^^^The above report is pure DDM.
"The trials are being conducted to sway the Indian army to buy the weapon"

"Germany is buying 680 of the missiles to be delivered through 2014 under a 380 million euro contract."
The delivery to the German forces will be completed in 2014 onlee.
With the Nag being impressive in it's ground based tests providing perfect hits on targets it's time for the Army to order then in large numbers. Hope soon massive orders will be place like the way Akash was ordered.
When our own Helina is going to be provided for tests in the year 2013, the Army can start inducting it from 2013.
http://frontierindia.net/helina-air-to- ... dy-by-2013
The Dhruv will be able to fire Helina in 2013. Similarly we can expect the LCH also to have the capability to fire Helina by 2013. So both the IAF and IA can have large number of Helina's to take out enemy armour.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 May 2011 07:20

Carpetbaggers, everyone rushing in to take a huge bite of the Indian Pie. This is worse than DDM, this is a motivated lie. IA/IAF is not even considering such a missile.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 May 2011 07:32

everyone in europe is suffering funding cutbacks and lack of strong orders. so doing pole/lap/bar dances and shedding clothes as fast as they can to stay alive and make a living.

I wonder what happens to EU's strong objections to Indias cruel human rights record, oppression and murder of millions of dalits, killing of tens of millions of kashmiris and our 700k troops in J&K beating up everyone on a daily basis?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 May 2011 08:48

Singha wrote:I wonder what happens to EU's strong objections to Indias cruel human rights record, oppression and murder of millions of dalits, killing of tens of millions of kashmiris and our 700k troops in J&K beating up everyone on a daily basis?

...and you forgot about millions of Indians living on 2$s a day.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 May 2011 17:27

^^ Ze Germany has already denied weapon systems meant for para-military forces in Chattisgarh and J&K citing poor HR record...Was widely reported in DDM some time back.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 21 May 2011 18:47

India to receive 15 Russian Mi-17B-5 copters

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 21 May 2011 23:47

^^^^ shouldn't it be V-5

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 May 2011 05:57

The plan to develop an unmanned version of ALH Druv (in a JV between HAL and IAI) is a great news, Eventhough it has been visualized for the Navy, it would be a great force-multiplier for the Army too. Imagine the strike corps sending a swarm of Unmanned ALH Druvs ahead of the main strike column to attack Paki Armoured columns and command HQs.

They will be decimated even before the first Indian soldier fires a shot.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 May 2011 06:02

VinodTK wrote:India to receive 15 Russian Mi-17B-5 copters

the article talks about this 15 being part of a larger order for 80 Mi-17s, offset nahi hai kya? there is an option for another 60 helos, hope the IAF takes up these options. We need loads of helos.

I hope India selects Apache attack helo and get to manufacture these in India!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 May 2011 14:02

afaik this deal was signed well before the offset clause system came into effect.

chipanda meanwhile has started a license production line for Mi17v using a more powerful engine than the ones we get. so despite their Z-x heli photos they are looking to plug the big gap in their high alt rotor capability using the Mi17.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 May 2011 14:56

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/jai-hi ... uds/195842
Rakshak,

It looks like IAF has Jury rigged Mi-17s (or is it a Chetak) as attack helicopters with Rocket Pods etc. in the above video (about Garuds) @ 6:09 mins, there is an excellent frontal shot of the Mi-17. Anyone has updates on this front. 116HU (Tank Busters) and 129HU (Nubra Warriors) seems to be the most likely units?

Any info would be hingly appreciated.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 May 2011 17:41

cheenum wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/jai-hi ... uds/195842
Rakshak,

It looks like IAF has Jury rigged Mi-17s (or is it a Chetak) as attack helicopters with Rocket Pods etc. in the above video (about Garuds) @ 6:09 mins, there is an excellent frontal shot of the Mi-17. Anyone has updates on this front. 116HU (Tank Busters) and 129HU (Nubra Warriors) seems to be the most likely units?

Any info would be hingly appreciated.

Mi 17s with rocket pods ssaw action in Kargil. Mi 17s with multiple machine guns firing out the side was demonstrated in Vayu Shakti 2010 - also the rocket pods in action. The videos are available online.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 May 2011 19:43

There is nothing Jerry rigged about those rocket pod attachments.
That is the way the helo's designers attached them in the soviet days.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 May 2011 14:12

cheenum wrote:
VinodTK wrote:India to receive 15 Russian Mi-17B-5 copters

I hope India selects Apache attack helo and get to manufacture these in India!!!

I hope that the Attack Helo compitition gets canned and the IAF/ IA work with LCH onlee.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 May 2011 14:43

^^And stick to light attach heli's??? Wouldn't it be better if we had some heavy attack helicopter to that can take a brutal pounding but still kick enemy's ass...
JMO...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 May 2011 14:59

Then why not design a Apache/ Mi28 class helo to begin with.

Also what is the gurantee that your enemy will oblige you with providing you with targets that will be suitable for the Heavies when they are available. What happnes when they send a target in an area that only a heavy as defined by you can deal with but, only the LCH is present (Assuming that the LCH isnt good enough for the JOB). Does the IA/ IAF loose the fight or they fight and prevail with what they have.

Changing tack, the Attack helo tender went to every helo manufacturer out there including the Tiger and the A 129. They did not participate due to different reasons. That tells me that the IAF/IA dont have clear difination of the machine they are looking for. It has to be an attack helo, its capabilities will be evaluated and only the most capable and the one performing the best in Indian conditions will be selected by the IAF/ IA. In that situation, if the LCH meets all the criteria of evaluation, then the tender ought to be scrapped and only the LCH be procured. If the LCH fails to meet the parameters then the winning design of the tender ought to be procured in the numbers ment for the LCH.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 23 May 2011 15:22

^^^ Can some one tell what extra Apache/Mi 28 can carry (in terms of ammunitions / Missiles / ATGMS and not plain weight) over LCH and different altitude? For Eg, 16 ATGM for Apache against 8 in LCH at 3000 feet.

This needs to be compared with the cost of heavy weights V/s LCH. Will give better picture. For eg, say LCH cost is half of the others. That mean the ammunition advantage to apache is nullified as in the first eg. However, it will have additional cost by way of additional pilots, infrastructure. But that will also give me enough flexibity of deployment say more area coverage, or superior numeric proportion or fast operations with targets divided between larger no of LCHs.

Although, does not mean i dont accept the utility of heavy weights

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 May 2011 18:12

Bala Vignesh wrote:^^And stick to light attach heli's??? Wouldn't it be better if we had some heavy attack helicopter to that can take a brutal pounding but still kick enemy's ass...
JMO...

you know, that's debatable. many militaries use light combat helo's.

btw, interesting article on the rooivalk, good for comparing with LCH. http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/articl ... 2011-05-20

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 May 2011 20:18

email it to all DDM idiots

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2011 20:24

a LCH class helo which has a 1000km range (ie massive loiter time @ 150kmph) and 8 x ATGMs seems more useful than a heavier heli with 16 ATGMs and normal endurance...kinda like the A340-600/A330-300 is more suitable for certain routes than a 747/A380. it can travel longer distances from secure areas in the rear, hunt targets for a longer time, engage in psyops sniping attacks and carry on the fight for a longer time. I realize a fuel tank also means addl fuel consumption in terms of carrying the metal tank, pumps and the fuel itself.

maybe some armoured conformal side bay apache style (in apache it holds avionics and fuel iirc) could be tried out on LCH too once mk1 design is stable...or catamaran outrigger style drop tanks of MH60

for H&D photos, a couple of para SF guys could also sit there and do the strong crewcut rogue warrior extraction thing for == onlee.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 23 May 2011 20:35

Gurus saw this in Indian Express, is this DDM at work or BSF playing politics or is there a genuine problem...?

BSF calls 'Dhruv' choppers useless

The Border Security Force (BSF) has written to the Government for replacing indigenous 'Dhruv' helicopters saying they did not fulfil its operational requirement.

"The Advanced Light Helicopters- Dhruv-- are not helpful in our operations like casualty evacuation and troop reinforcements. They are useless for us. Most of the times these helicopters are under servicing and there are issues about its capabilities to fly beyond a certain height," BSF sources said.

"We have informed the Home Ministry in this regard.

The helicopter keeps developing regular snags," they said.

The air wing in these naxal-affected areas is under the command of the Border Security Force (BSF) and is used by the personnel of CRPF, ITBP, SSB and state police forces.

The BSF air fleet at present has six ALH 'Dhruvs' and two more will soon be inducted.

The Home Ministry, meanwhile, has also finalised a deal to lease six additional helicopters from a private vendor after a tender in this regard was floated last year by the government.

"These helicopters will be in place by June this year and will help security forces deployed for anti-naxal operations,"the sources said.

The present fleet of 'Dhruvs' placed in Raipur (Chhattisgarh) and Ranchi (Jharkhand) are also out of work due to reasons of want of spare parts or requirements of servicing.

The BSF air fleet, according to sources, will also be inducting a large transport plane as the two Avros that it has are non-operational due to technical reasons.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 May 2011 20:38

Marten wrote:Vayu has a comparison of Lizardclone vs LCH. I have two images. Mods, would it be ok to post these?

It's here - kelik on thumbnail

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2011 20:39

Singha wrote: for H&D photos, a couple of para SF guys could also sit there and do the strong crewcut rogue warrior extraction thing for == onlee.

In fact, Parachute Regiment have done something even more impressive for Dhruv
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JffsYlJA ... age#t=252s
Now top that!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2011 20:59

I wonder who supports the BSF Dhruvs? IAF ? its upto HAL and the supporting body to work things out and give higher uptime.

higher uptime == more costs + more people that much is given. provided the money is there, it should not be an issue.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 May 2011 21:56

Marten sir,
I guess you can upload the artice in its entirety here.. Better here than any other thread...

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 23 May 2011 22:39

Singha wrote:I wonder who supports the BSF Dhruvs? IAF ? its upto HAL and the supporting body to work things out and give higher uptime.

higher uptime == more costs + more people that much is given. provided the money is there, it should not be an issue.

The IAF has no dealing with the BSF choppers. They are serviced by HAL.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 May 2011 23:56

Pratyush wrote:Then why not design a Apache/ Mi28 class helo to begin with.

Also what is the gurantee that your enemy will oblige you with providing you with targets that will be suitable for the Heavies when they are available. What happnes when they send a target in an area that only a heavy as defined by you can deal with but, only the LCH is present (Assuming that the LCH isnt good enough for the JOB). Does the IA/ IAF loose the fight or they fight and prevail with what they have.

Changing tack, the Attack helo tender went to every helo manufacturer out there including the Tiger and the A 129. They did not participate due to different reasons. That tells me that the IAF/IA dont have clear difination of the machine they are looking for. It has to be an attack helo, its capabilities will be evaluated and only the most capable and the one performing the best in Indian conditions will be selected by the IAF/ IA. In that situation, if the LCH meets all the criteria of evaluation, then the tender ought to be scrapped and only the LCH be procured. If the LCH fails to meet the parameters then the winning design of the tender ought to be procured in the numbers ment for the LCH.

Pratyushji,
The Attack heli of that class will be a derivative of the IMMRH, which is still pretty much in the planning stage. So i guess its gonna be a long time before we can make our own attack helicopter of that class.

About the Targets, there is absolutely no guarantee that our enemy will deploy exactly in the manner we want this assets to be deployed. But the ace up LCH's sleeve is its capabilities at high altitude. So apart from the high altitude areas, the Apache's/Mi28's and LCH can be co-deployed almost everywhere.

I can't speak about the spec mentioned in the RFP since i have not gone through it yet. But i can understand why they want limited numbers of these heavy hitting birds. Big is always big, irrespective if they are better or not. And that's exactly what we need for some roles, like Recon: search and destroy to name two.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 24 May 2011 00:09

shiv wrote:
Marten wrote:Vayu has a comparison of Lizardclone vs LCH. I have two images. Mods, would it be ok to post these?
It's here - kelik on thumbnail

Some mistake there looks like.... why is the WZ-10 loaded wt greater than its MTOW??

I'm guessing the correct figures should look something like this:

LCH:

empty wt: 2.5 tons
loaded wt: 4 tons
MTOW: 5.5 tons
Useful load: 3 tons

WZ-10:

empty wt: 5.5 tons
loaded wt: 6 tons
MTOW: 7 tons
Useful load: 1.5 tons

Seems like something wrong to me, even with those numbers. But if true, brilliant stuff!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 May 2011 05:33

IAF could use Apache's/Mi28's along with LCH in a strike role. An Apache with Longbow radar can guide a flight of LCHs towards their target to deadly effect. To exploit this capability IAF could be looking to buy just 28 of these big birds and buy LCHs in the hundreds.

I hope they complete the selection quickly. With the Alphabet soup of agreements from the US, the deal might swing the Mi28s way. Incidentally Mi-28 sports a radar very similar to the Longbow radar on an Apache.
A Pooch for gurus, How much do they cost?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 06:09

the twin engine AH1W supercobra weighs 4.6t empty and the Rooivalk @ 5.5t

the single engine AH1 weight around 2.6t empty

is anyone sure of the 2.5t empty for LCH ? the argiden engine weight 205kg each and then there might be external parts per engine...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 06:11

cheenum wrote:IAF is looking to use Apache's/Mi28's along with LCH in a strike role. An Apache with Longbow radar can guide a flight of LCHs towards their target to deadly effect. This is why they are looking to by 28 of these big birds and LCHs in the hundreds.

Do you have any source to back up this description of Apaches being able to guide LCHs and the IAF having such a plan- or are you extrapolating what you know about the Apache to imagine a secure datalink between Apache and the as yet unavailable LCH.

I have a reason for asking this question. You may well be right in your thinking - but your post sounds so juicy and attractive to the jingo ear that you will find some lurker of today ask on this forum after one year (in 2012) "What happened to the plan of integrating Apache with LCH?" or if Apache is rejected someone will have a caterwaul/rant and say "MoD Babus are stupid - the IAF plan to ingrate Apache Longbow with LCH has been dashed". So your post had better not be misinformation or imagination.

In my view India will not get the Longbow even if we get Apaches for the same reason that India did not get CISMOA with the C-130s. Longbow (the radar) will come with EULA that will demand that India reveal how it will be used. Besides - secure datalinking it with LCH will mean either having some Longbow source code or asking the Americans to create a datalink to be used in LCH along with EULA etc.

Finally a mast mounted radar is something that requires intensive maintenance because of the high vibration environment it has to operate ie - and that means that American Longbow technicians will be crawling all over IAF Longbows.

Lastly - the Longbow radar is mast mounted so that the Apache can hide behind terrain features and yet use its detection and aiming capability. That means that the Longbow Apache is not an "AWACS" type design that calls for it to be somewhere far away outside the theatre of action. If the Apache is in the theater of action why use LCH - or are you suggesting a caste system where it is OK to lose a few LCHs who expose themselves but preserve the hiding Apache. If all helos, Apache and LCH are hiding behind terrain so that line of sight communication is impossible - what sort of secure communication will be used? We will need a dedicated satellite for that. Or will it be an AWACS? Is the IAF planing that as well?

Can you be a bit more clear about what you claim the IAF envisages.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 May 2011 06:36

IAF's attack chopper competition is simply a one to one replacement of the hinds, probably because the LCH is still at least a couple of years away from completion. given that choppers with no fire-control radars, like mangusta and tiger were also sent RFPs I don't think the idea that IAF wanted to use the foreign attack chopper in co-op with LCH sticks.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 May 2011 06:53

shiv wrote:
cheenum wrote:IAF is looking to use Apache's/Mi28's along with LCH in a strike role. An Apache with Longbow radar can guide a flight of LCHs towards their target to deadly effect. This is why they are looking to by 28 of these big birds and LCHs in the hundreds.
Do you have any source to back up this description of Apaches being able to guide LCHs and the IAF having such a plan- or are you extrapolating what you know about the Apache to imagine a secure datalink between Apache and the as yet unavailable LCH.

This possibility of Apache being able to do this is from a Design Engineer in McDonnel Douglas (which designed the original Apache which was since then acquired by Boeing). At the same time will the US SD/DOD allow Boeing to sell an Apache Longbow or will IAF select the Nanga Apache is a million dollar question.

My scenario is an ideal scenario, Jingo wet dream, I cannot talk for the IAF... Gurus are there for it.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 May 2011 06:59

shiv wrote:
cheenum wrote:IAF is looking to use Apache's/Mi28's along with LCH in a strike role. An Apache with Longbow radar can guide a flight of LCHs towards their target to deadly effect. This is why they are looking to by 28 of these big birds and LCHs in the hundreds.
If the Apache is in the theater of action why use LCH - or are you suggesting a caste system where it is OK to lose a few LCHs who expose themselves but preserve the hiding Apache. If all helos, Apache and LCH are hiding behind terrain so that line of sight communication is impossible - what sort of secure communication will be used? We will need a dedicated satellite for that. Or will it be an AWACS? Is the IAF planing that as well?

Can you be a bit more clear about what you claim the IAF envisages.

My suggestion was for Apache (1 or more) to lead a flight of LCH into a strike mission. PERIOD. There is a capability to do this. Both Apache and Mi-28 can do it. I never meant LCH would be cannon fodder. LCH would actually do its attacking from a ~~standoff~~distance(couple of KM).

Also if the enemy is going to attack this strike flight. They would actually try to take out the lead Apache/Mi-28 than the LCH as this would dis-orient the strike force.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 07:30

cheenum wrote:
My suggestion was for Apache (1 or more) to lead a flight of LCH into a strike mission. PERIOD. There is a capability to do this. Both Apache and Mi-28 can do it. I never meant LCH would be cannon fodder. LCH would actually do its attacking from a ~~standoff~~distance(couple of KM).

Also if the enemy is going to attack this strike flight. They would actually try to take out the lead Apache/Mi-28 than the LCH as this would dis-orient the strike force.

Fair enough - but if it is your suggestion, that does not translate to its being the IAF's idea. Sorry to nitpick - but your actual statement was:

IAF is looking to use Apache's/Mi28's along with LCH in a strike role. An Apache with Longbow radar can guide a flight of LCHs towards their target to deadly effect. This is why they are looking to by 28 of these big birds and LCHs in the hundreds.

The suggestion is yours, but your have said that the "IAF is looking to use..". That is wrong. The IAF has stated no intention to use Apaches in this manner. Perhaps you meant to say "It would be good for the IAF to use Apache Longbow with LCH"?

The capability may be there - but that capability is only nascent and not a plan. Like I said - I believe that the IAF is unlikely to get Longbow along with Apache. That is my opinion because the Longbow will come with too many strings attached.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 24 May 2011 08:06

Comparing article of LCH and Chinese lizard

Combat attack helicopters: Rivals in the air

It seems India and china are par on Helicopter technology if not better

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 May 2011 08:15

I stand corrected, will reword my post.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 08:33

imo this whole spotter-shooter thing devolves into a easier model if a helicopter or small plane mounts a GMTI radar (Astor, french horizon), flies say 20-30km behind the edge of the desired battle (to keep out of range for mobile SAMs) and feeds the tactical picture via datalink to the attack helis. the helis by themselves have thermals and TV channels and radio comms to allocate targets and shoot.

web indicates france retired their 4 horizons in 2008 because of high cost and use of UAVs to do same job.
The helicopter is equipped with a long-range, multi-mode retractable pulse Doppler radar. A rotating antenna is carried beneath the fuselage. The radar range is 200km, with the helicopter operating at an altitude of 4,000m and a cruise speed of 180km/h.

The radar scans a ground area of 20,000km² over a depth of 200km in ten seconds, and the data is then transmitted to a ground station. For moving targets the radar provides a speed resolution of the target of 2m per second.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/horizon/

so the problem becomes simpler - mount ground surveillance radar on a large MALE UAV and feed that into shooter via some channel. I think we will see Rustom MALE variant in that role when it arrives - its a gaping hole in current IAF capability. at higher end for surveilling corps sized areas , a EMB145 variant might come along, reusing interior work from the AEW project.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 08:49

Singha this whole business of "network centric warfare" is the seamless integration of all sensors. It may be a man on the ground 500 meters from the enemy - a UAV, a helo or an AWACS. Everyone should be able to see what someone else sees. So an infantryman can track a tank and feed the info to the network and that tank can be taken out by any available asset.

OT here - but in this connection Prodyut Das (in his latest article from Vayu that I uploaded to Rapidshare) mentions the possibility of a 3-D cube - probably a computer rendition on a 2-D screen that allows a pilot to see his own position relative to all others - friends and threats.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 May 2011 08:52

karan_mc wrote:Comparing article of LCH and Chinese lizard

Combat attack helicopters: Rivals in the air

It seems India and china are par on Helicopter technology if not better

Good. wherever chips market their wheezy 10, we could take up a counter bid for LCH, provided buyer is a safe country/customer with no links to terrorism.