Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

[devesh]

^^^
indeed. that is right. Dhruva is from an illustrated line of kings tracing back to one of the Prajapatis.

[Murugan]

recently visited Kanheri caves at SGNP Borivali in the outskirts of Mumbai.

The purpose was to replenish a cache of treasure hidden for geocaching sports http://www.geocaching.com/ and to find out more brahmi inscriptions in and around caves, only one inscription is known published widely but other 50 inscriptions either unnoticed or unpublished

A cache of various items for geocachers is hidden somewhere near kanheri caves, coordinates can be foud using the above website. the rule is, people who find the cache can take some items away and put some of their own and keep the dabba of items in the same location where it was found, which will be further expolored by others.

we are planning to include clues from these brahmi inscription for finding hidden geocache. this will encourage people to learn about ancient script of ours.

At kanheri we have found at least 7 hitherto unnoticed/unpublished brahmi inscriptions in cave no 2 and 3 and near the stone of cave no 5.

on the sides of two pillars at the entrance of cave no 3 in the link http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EpP4jhjxtVs/T ... C_7796.JPG
two different incriptions are found

one at the left
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EpP4jhjxtVs/T ... 0/0090.jpg
is well published while at the right pillar major portion is lost to natural foces.

It is said that there are at least 50+ incriptions written in many of the 100+ caves.

the picture of incription given below has words like soparak, ambalika, vihare, rajtilak, paithan pathe etc

[Atri]

I had visited them several times.. Did not know these inscriptions are not published.. this is shocking.. I assumed it to be published long ago during british rule. Saashti (Salsette) island was under british rule since 1802...

[Murugan]

I had visited them several times.. Did not know these inscriptions are not published.. this is shocking.. I assumed it to be published long ago during british rule. Saashti (Salsette) island was under british rule since 1802...

Probably published once in asiatic society's journals and then forgotten. Nobody cares to learn ancient languages and scripts.

[RamaY]

Niran/Devesh,

You are right. Utthana Pada is Dhruva's father. I stand corrected.

[Murugan]

one rusi website has record of many indian inscriptions' translations, very commendable job by some real india lover.

http://indepigr.narod.ru/early/ajanta/index.htm

a little prob: is there are many russian letters used in translation.
And there is no picture of original insriptions
but still a good collection!!

[Murugan]

Murugan ji,
if we dig and find coins archaeologically [not from family sources or inheritance - we have a sizeable collection, so I know], then it means the coin had gone out of circulation at some stage. This was all I meant. I will write later about the lack of bullion in the late antiquity in the north - later.

coins go out of circulation at two stages:

1) Coins become illegal by a decree by a conquering king and new king introduces coins with hiw own signia and inscription
2) Old coins melted in large numbers - either by a conqurer or melted due to war or calamities
3) Bullion disapppears because of wars and invasions as history tells. Especially gold.

As far as kshatrap and gupta coins are concerned thery are found in archaeological excavations, in hoard from temples and religious places. These coins are even found while digging for wells (mostly silver coins ) in gujarat/maharashtra/malwa regions.

Magadh Janpad and Gupta coins are found at many places across india east bihar/bengal/bangladesh to west in gujarat, and from varanasi in north to south of maharashtra.

[brihaspati]

Gold coins were minted again [or issued after almost 450 years] after the Guptas, by Gangeyadeva, of the Kalachuris from Tripuri. When people say "plenty" they mean 20's, 50's etc. For example Gangeyadeva's coins, as far as I know are 22 from Azamgarh and 3 described by Cunningham. But not many new coins found from his successors. Mirashi places the 8 coins found at Isurpur to be structurally different from the other coins and possibly by his son Karna Kalachuri [probably the FIL of Vigraphapala III of Palas].

Kirtivarman [first Chandella king to issue] are few.
Madanavarman [highest number among Chandellas] - 59
Paramardi - only one of "base" gold [highly diluted]
Hallaksana - few
Jayavarman - nil
Prithvivarman - nil
Tailokyavaraman - few
Viravarman -2

Kalachuris of Dakshin Kosala :
Bilaspur 600
Puri 9
Sonepur 27
Sarangarh(Chattisgarh) - 56


Paramaras :
Udayaditya - 1(2?) (1060-87)

Chalukya:
Siddharaja Jayasimha -2

Kacchapaghata dynasty of Nalapura
Virasimha - 5

Pala :
Devapala - 1

Kumarapaladeva+Mahipala - few [doesnt matter where Cunngiham allots them in dynastic terms]

But the "coin hoards" from Gahadavala Govindachandra times - are extemely debased [hoard of 800 in Bahraich].

Silver:
In kashmir - only Harsha, and no one else.
Indo-Sassanian gadahyia coins [widely used in north India]- very base silver or copper with traces of silver.
Shahis of Ohind - the best example of almost 90% silver - but few in numbers
Kalachuris (Tripuri/Ratnapura)+Chandellas - the silver coins found could originally be issues of "gold" currency [trace of gold on top with mostly silver - Madanavarman]. All Kalachuri "reasonable" silver coins all come from Prithvideva.

Tomara, Gahadavala, Narwar, Chahmans, - mostly copper alloyed with some silver. High silver content coins are rare.

Lost or hoarded coins found archaeologically can give an idea of the amount of coins in circulation at the time, if we assume a steady rate of "loss" by accident or by design. If they are lost by smelting by an invader they remain in circulation or use.

Compared to the Kushana or Gupta period coins, therefore, we can see very few new coins were issued.

(1) if we assume that the Gupta coins were continued to be in use then we would find them evenly "lost" at a constant rate throughout all the layers.

(2) If they sufficed for trade it means that the trade was entirely internal, since if you traded with foreign lands [foreign merchants were known to be insistent on high valued bullion] this coin supply would diminish gradually and would not be available in the land.

(3) If you were also bringing in profits, new gold/bullion - even in the form of coins - would be coming in, requiring either their direct use or melting down and minting new coins.

(4) when new coins were needed, why go for high levels of degradation - if you still have the good quality Gupta/Kushana coins why not use them to create new/good coins?

All these can only be explained if loss of foreign trade, and or removal of bullion from northern India by Islmic looting are both allowed to be considered! [We have indirect evidence that people still knew about purity of coins, since Lekhapaddhati or other texts, especially the maths ones - describe in details the coins, percentages, how to measure purity etc. If such pure coins were not available, these texts need not have placed so much importance. Moreover the cowries are found in large numbers in hoards and from other indications the economy+foreign trade was not so poor as to be matched or supported by only so low-value tokens].

[ramana]

Can some one map all the above info?

Thanks, ramana

[Yagnasri]

^^^
indeed. that is right. Dhruva is from an illustrated line of kings tracing back to one of the Prajapatis.

No Uttana Pada is the son of Swayambhu Manu. His son is Dhruva. He is not from any Prajapathi.

[devesh]

aren't the Manus from the Prajapatis? the present Manu, Vaivaswata, is descended form Marichi and Kashyapa, both of whom are Prajapatis. what is the genealogy of Swayambhuva Manu?

[abhishek_sharma]

Is this a good book?

Discovering the Vedas

[Murugan]

Gold coins were minted again [or issued after almost 450 years] after the Guptas, by Gangeyadeva, of the Kalachuris from Tripuri. When people say "plenty" they mean 20's, 50's etc. For example Gangeyadeva's coins, as far as I know are 22 from Azamgarh and 3 described by Cunningham. But not many new coins found from his successors. Mirashi places the 8 coins found at Isurpur to be structurally different from the other coins and possibly by his son Karna Kalachuri [probably the FIL of Vigraphapala III of Palas].

Kirtivarman [first Chandella king to issue] are few.
Madanavarman [highest number among Chandellas] - 59
Paramardi - only one of "base" gold [highly diluted]
Hallaksana - few
Jayavarman - nil
Prithvivarman - nil
Tailokyavaraman - few
Viravarman -2

Kalachuris of Dakshin Kosala :
Bilaspur 600
Puri 9
Sonepur 27
Sarangarh(Chattisgarh) - 56


Paramaras :
Udayaditya - 1(2?) (1060-87)

Chalukya:
Siddharaja Jayasimha -2

Kacchapaghata dynasty of Nalapura
Virasimha - 5

Pala :
Devapala - 1

Kumarapaladeva+Mahipala - few [doesnt matter where Cunngiham allots them in dynastic terms]

But the "coin hoards" from Gahadavala Govindachandra times - are extemely debased [hoard of 800 in Bahraich].

Silver:
In kashmir - only Harsha, and no one else.
Indo-Sassanian gadahyia coins [widely used in north India]- very base silver or copper with traces of silver.
Shahis of Ohind - the best example of almost 90% silver - but few in numbers
Kalachuris (Tripuri/Ratnapura)+Chandellas - the silver coins found could originally be issues of "gold" currency [trace of gold on top with mostly silver - Madanavarman]. All Kalachuri "reasonable" silver coins all come from Prithvideva.

Tomara, Gahadavala, Narwar, Chahmans, - mostly copper alloyed with some silver. High silver content coins are rare.

Lost or hoarded coins found archaeologically can give an idea of the amount of coins in circulation at the time, if we assume a steady rate of "loss" by accident or by design. If they are lost by smelting by an invader they remain in circulation or use.

Compared to the Kushana or Gupta period coins, therefore, we can see very few new coins were issued.

(1) if we assume that the Gupta coins were continued to be in use then we would find them evenly "lost" at a constant rate throughout all the layers.

(2) If they sufficed for trade it means that the trade was entirely internal, since if you traded with foreign lands [foreign merchants were known to be insistent on high valued bullion] this coin supply would diminish gradually and would not be available in the land.

(3) If you were also bringing in profits, new gold/bullion - even in the form of coins - would be coming in, requiring either their direct use or melting down and minting new coins.

(4) when new coins were needed, why go for high levels of degradation - if you still have the good quality Gupta/Kushana coins why not use them to create new/good coins?

All these can only be explained if loss of foreign trade, and or removal of bullion from northern India by Islmic looting are both allowed to be considered! [We have indirect evidence that people still knew about purity of coins, since Lekhapaddhati or other texts, especially the maths ones - describe in details the coins, percentages, how to measure purity etc. If such pure coins were not available, these texts need not have placed so much importance. Moreover the cowries are found in large numbers in hoards and from other indications the economy+foreign trade was not so poor as to be matched or supported by only so low-value tokens].

Above information is only applicable to govt records. People find coins in large numbers, especially farmers and in general do not report find since it is confiscated by authorities. For example, from the above mentioned dynasties' meagre reporting of coin quantity, i invite you to Mumbai and will show you plastic jars filled with above coins. Perhaps the above reported Siddharaj Jaysimha's only coins are in my collection !! which i selected from a reputed dealer who had offered me a big plastic of Jar coins of only Sidhharaj Jaysimha. Pala coins were available in gunny bag.

Gold coins were minted again [or issued after almost 450 years] after the Guptas, by Gangeyadeva, of the Kalachuris from Tripuri.

Gupta age was known age golden age also because these king minted plenty of gold coins (not just 50s or 60s but in large numbers, 1800+ gold coins were found only at one place at Bharatpur). They are still being found and come to market for sale and are not offered to govt for record by any chance.

As I mentioned earlier, precious metal 'disappears' in the time of war and invasions as people tend to save more and hoarded money in secret places. this must have happened after skandagupta's time and in absence of a powerful empire/emperor no National money reported because they were not minted by central authority. After skandgupta india was again divided in small states, city states, princely states of very small and insignificant size that number money minted by the rulers was so insignificant.

The other reason coins of certain rulers are found in lesser number is the period of reign. shorter the reign scarcer the coins. Primary point for collecting rare coins.

Absence/scarcity of coins/money also indicates less commercial activities especially in small states and city states.

***

Anything found under mitti (soil) belongs to indian govt as per the archaic laws of british ruled india. People find hoards in large numbers and they sell them individually to local goldsmiths for scrap prices. Neither the finder nor the dearl report finds to local authorities. In other countries govts encourage people to hunt for lost treasures. some amount of the find is kept by govt and the rest can be retained by prospector. Metal detectors are used to find lost treasures and coin hoards by these prospectors.

Earlier, when the banks were not there people used to save money in copper/brass/mitti vessels. money was hoarded in this fashion and the place where it was hidden was known to only 2-3 members of family. Such jars were kept at secrte place for generations for hoarding coins. Loot by islamic hordes is applicable to money available at the places of sharafs and rich people/temples and not to the money which is kept as above by people in general



Such hoards are found while ploughing the field, digging wells, constructing/renovatin ponds. they are offered for sale to local goldsmiths who are in numismatic circuits, keep rare and scarce types with them for better prices, common types go for melting. Goldsmiths/scrap dealers, if raided by authorities, argue that it is their ancestral property and authorities cant do anything. Farmers and labourers do not know this trick and nobody will believe them also.

Nagpur is the biggest ancient/medieval/british coins melting centre. India's majority of numismatists and dealers camp at nagpur to find ancient and medieval coins, other melting centres are Ujjain, Ahmedabad, Jodhpur, Jaipur and Kolkata.

Promising place to find medieval hindu coinage from goldsmiths and scrap dealers is Ujjain, Patan, Pune etc. but one must have the knowledge to detect forgeries amongst piles of coins.

Large number of coins come on wholesale basis to Zaveri Bazaar of mumbai, where numismatic dealers come to buy.

find of coins reported by govt and archaeological surveys cannot be necessarily taken as only truth. Since hoards are not hidden by default at archaeological sites excavated and archaelogists are not necessarily honest.

Visit numismatic auctions organised by todywala and oswal auctions of mumbai; and classical numismatic gallery of ahmedabad organized at many placed in india throughout the year and one will find at numerous examples of hitherto known rare coins as above in plenty.

[Murugan]

(2) If they sufficed for trade it means that the trade was entirely internal, since if you traded with foreign lands [foreign merchants were known to be insistent on high valued bullion] this coin supply would diminish gradually and would not be available in the land.

(3) If you were also bringing in profits, new gold/bullion - even in the form of coins - would be coming in, requiring either their direct use or melting down and minting new coins.

(4) when new coins were needed, why go for high levels of degradation - if you still have the good quality Gupta/Kushana coins why not use them to create new/good coins?

Why foreign merchants only? Indian merchants were also insistent on high valued bullion.

The metal goes for high levels of degradation in coins due to
1) unavailabilty of precious metal due to hoarding and lack of trust for rulers in the people.
2) lack of powerful central authority, Small states/princely states lack commerce of that level
3) gupta/kushan gold coins were hoarded and stashed away by rich people and cannot be just used to create new coins. there was no central powerful authority worthwhile who can succesfully force people to deposit their treasure. Post gupta india was divided in hundreds of small states.

[Murugan]

Bent Bar Coins (known as Shataman) of Gandhar Janpad were earlier known to be rarer and were offered/sold at auctions for upto 6000=00 per piece.



Dealers started hoarding bent bars to earn more in future.

People of some part of afghanistan somehow came to know that these coins are sold at higher prices in auctions, started pouring the numismatic market with hundreds of bent bars and now nobody buys bent bars for even 2000=00.

(some numismatist earlier tried to convince people that silver was not available a plenty in gandhar thats why scarcity of bent bars which theory is now being proved wrong)

***

Regarding poor quality of silver:

India has to/had to depend on other countries for silver. at one point of time, indian used to pay price of gold for silver. during the periods when commerce declined and international commerce was almost nil, there was no new silver coming in. Hence the contents of silver in coins in certain states reduced. Islamic invasion/loot was not responsible for debased metal. Actually, when mughals/sultanates became powerful, international trades improved, silver was imported in plenty and contents of silver improved to a great extent.

[RamaY]

I got this intuitive flash this morning -

Could it be possible that at the beginning of thought experiments, the seers saw only Creator (Brahma) similar to monotheistic thought processes. Later they must have observed that both vyakta and avyakta (perceivable and non-perceivable OR personified and unpersonified) universe to be dead/dissolved (Laya) and called that state of being as Siva.

Perhaps at a later state it must have occurred to them that universe did exist even before the creation (life forms if one will) and the consciousness of that universe is nothing but a transformation of "life" forms. That expansion/sustenance phase is called Vishnu?

To ensure that the silliness of creator, creation being center of theology doesn't dominate human mind, they denied worship to Brahma???

[devesh]

RamaY garu,

good point about Brahma. another possibility is that the Tamo guna associated with Brahma was considered not worthy of prayer. it is better to pray for Rajas and Sattva than to pray for Tamas, which is laziness and slothfulness.

the "create and forget" model was deemed to laid back and not worthy of praise/meditation......or so I believe.

[brihaspati]

Murugan ji,
your argument about sole reason for less bullion being lack of "trade" or even "internal trade", and not Islamic looting, could be hard to justify. For example stimated [of course such estimation are trouble-some] economic outputs or GDP's of Pala empire is quite high, with a relatively small fall from the previous estimates for previous regimes.

We have to proceed on the basis of available official catalogues, since estimating the unofficial "hoards" and trade is very nearly impossible. But even if we suppose that the large majority of this particular period only is traded or hoarded with extra zeal [thereby producing the gap in official catalogues compared to other periods], the debasing of the coins indicates a possible outflow of bullion. If we assume that external trade decreased drastically then this outflow could not have been peaceful.

The very fact that you need to debase, means you still need a large number of coins in circulation - which indicates that money-supply was demanded by the economy, but to feed it, bullion was not available. If you are being forced to pay with bullion to external traders and not getting it back in exchange, it can only mean internal economy contracting. But that is not supported by the later hoards of large number of highly devalued coins and cowries.

[RamaY]

Sanku Maharaj

Another idea for your saga. A Tripurantaka option by Bharat to humble Unkil>PRC>TSP trio. You can use the perceivably mutually contradicting aspects of Bharat to build the modern depiction of Shiva's battle on Tripurasuras...

Earth as chariot, Sun and Moon as wheels, Meru as bow, Vasuki as bow string, Vishnu as tip of the arrow, and so on..

Added Later: Perhaps Jamwal's story can have this climax

[Klaus]

^^^ To add to above post, we could use differing connotations such as the one below:

AFAIK, Bactria is Baalhika pradesh and not Vaahik pradesh.. Balhika is the origin of the modern day "Balkh"..

Indeed Atriji you're right. Most authors make a distinction. I was mislead by the wikipedia entry and Vipasa => Beas might be a linguistic trend in west.

To justify an Indic northward push from 5 river plain to Bahlika, subsequently onto Uttara Kuru > Amudarya (Oxus). We could develop a Maratha and Sikh joint venture and joint expedition as an adventure story. Would be like Ujjaini Vikramaditya Part 2, this time in Northern direction.

After all, the dark forces come into their own in the murkiness!

[Sanku]

Thanks RamaY-ji. I have written about 2 posts only so far Need to get back and develop it.

[Murugan]

Murugan ji,
your argument about sole reason for less bullion being lack of "trade" or even "internal trade", and not Islamic looting, could be hard to justify. For example stimated [of course such estimation are trouble-some] economic outputs or GDP's of Pala empire is quite high, with a relatively small fall from the previous estimates for previous regimes.

We have to proceed on the basis of available official catalogues, since estimating the unofficial "hoards" and trade is very nearly impossible. But even if we suppose that the large majority of this particular period only is traded or hoarded with extra zeal [thereby producing the gap in official catalogues compared to other periods], the debasing of the coins indicates a possible outflow of bullion. If we assume that external trade decreased drastically then this outflow could not have been peaceful.

The very fact that you need to debase, means you still need a large number of coins in circulation - which indicates that money-supply was demanded by the economy, but to feed it, bullion was not available. If you are being forced to pay with bullion to external traders and not getting it back in exchange, it can only mean internal economy contracting. But that is not supported by the later hoards of large number of highly devalued coins and cowries.

Other reasons for shortage of bullion inflow could be chaotic/normal political, military instability - at 1) production points, 2) supply routes.

A) Comfortable level of bullion (especially silver, for which there was no source, mine etc in india) available corresponds to stability in the supply routes falling in various regions, good trade and commerce under powerful monarchs, larger empires/sultanates/kingdoms, bigger india.

B ) Grecian peninsula was one of the largest producers of silver which was major nearest source of silver to india. Silver was carted by road network or arabian sea. Whenever the regions between grecian peninsula and afghanistan were under pressure, at war or economically weak, india faced shortage of bullion.

Burma was another region known to possess large deposit of silver but were of not much use because of supply constraints and supply routes unviable/unusable almost throughout all seasons.

When powerful sultanates/mughals came to power stability in india increased, supply routes becames safer, inflow of bullion improved and as a result we find availability of sultanate and mughal silver coins with finest quality/purity. (though use of bullion to fight islamic looters/invaders can still be justified for scarcity of silver during the period of invasions).

Spain and italy were other sources of silver. the occidental merchants traded with oriental with payment made in silver as it was scarcer especially in india. India was always silver hungry while europe was tin hungry. whenever the demand of silver increased in india production in these region was challenged and silver became scarcer during this demand period. whenever these regions fell in chaos, became unstable and poltically weak, fought long wars the silver supply reduced.

In short, availability of silver in india depended on volumes of trade with europe and european conditions, safer supply routes and production of silver in above mentioned countries.

The other way round, when production of silver increased and more silver mines found in europe, european trade with india improved that lead to better availability of silver in india. Little availability of silver in india because of these reasons lead to debased silver coins and not the so called islamic loot.

[ManishH]

According to Hudud-al-Alam, coins of Kapisa were made from silver mined from two towns Panjhir and Jariyana, in the Andarab valley.

My interpretation is that once these mine towns passed under control of Islamic invaders, supply of silver reduced significantly.

[Murugan]

Wars/instability and Availability of Silver

1810 onwards spain lost most of its resources and silver in fighting colonies they were holding. due to this silver mining industry suffered greatly. south amercian colonies with rich silver resources stopped production during this decade long wars. this lead to debased silver coins when more lead and tin added. in 1816 england abondoned silver as money metal.

Again during world war II silver producing nations went to war - results were felt in indian coinage. 1939 onwards, silver contents kept reducing. The rupee (with bust of KG VI) contaiened only 50% of silver by 1945. (Direct relation war vis a vis silver contents in coins - 1939 - 1945 start and end of war) Silver coins in india were melted down. by 1946 we had nickel rupee coins with bust of british emperor on obverse. No loot of any kind is responsible for this debasement.

(inflation can also cause debasement of silver but we do not have historical data of inflation of small and insignificant, indian small states during medieval period)

Added later:

1. Due to out break of 2nd world war, cost of all metals used in coins such as gold, silver and copper increased very much in India. Hence no gold coins were issued. Even the silver content of the coins were reduced to 50% and further reduced to zero in 1947. Only Nickel was used, instead of silver similarly to save the copper, coins were issued with a hole (washer coins).
3. Even minting of bronze coins of 1/12 anna and 1/2 pice was stopped. Metallic cover was used from spent bullets and shells of 2nd world war to mint some coins like 1/2 Anna, 1 Anna and 2 Annas.

In a nutshell, debasement of indian coins during certain period can also be attributed to wars in far away regions and other reasons cited above.

Islamic loot can not be assigned as a reason, because of the fact that, looters bigger than islamic invaders were ruling india from 1835 to 1947 and only major debasement happend only during last ten years of their loot based misrule - reasons rooted in europe.

silver was available in india in abundance before british looters' rule, during looters rule and is still available after the looters were kicked out in the middle of the night.

But now we dont have silver coins is not == scarcity of bullion.

[saadhak]

aren't the Manus from the Prajapatis? the present Manu, Vaivaswata, is descended form Marichi and Kashyapa, both of whom are Prajapatis. what is the genealogy of Swayambhuva Manu?

Swayambhuva means self-born. Brahma is Param pita. Marichi is one of the 10 Manas putras of Brahma and Kashyap is his son.
Per the 18th Purana Shrimad Bhagvat, Swayambhuva Manu is the first out of the 14 Manus of every Kalpa. 1 Kalpa = 1 day of Brahma = 14 Manvantars (sandhi-vichched is Manu + Antar). Each Manu rules for 1 Manvantar which consists of 71 Chaturyugis.
After multiple failed attempts at creating the srishti, Brahma split himself into 2 - Swayambhuva Manu and Shatrupa. From here the 'maithuni srishti' started.

Some unsolicited information which many would know:
To give an idea of how long that duration is: 1 Chaturyug consists of a cycle of Satyug, Treta, Dwapar and Kalyug in that order. Kalyug = 4.32 lakh years, Dwapar = 2 x 4.32 lakh years, Treta = 3 x 4.32 lakh years, Satyug = 4 x 4.32 lakh years. i.e. 1 Chaturyugi ~ 43.2 lakh years
The Bhavishya Puran gives details of all the 14 Manus of this Kalpa as well as the Saptarishis of each Manvantar.

[brihaspati]

Murugan ji,
perhaps we should not compare periods when token currency was virtually unknown or not relied upon, and values depended on the actual quantity or purity of precious metal in currency - with periods when token currency is more common. The entire basis of "valuation" of currency was changed from the earlier period we were referring to [approx 750-1100 in the north] and the British consolidation on the subcontinent. There were some pretty well-known dances and far-reaching political/military impact of the British attempts at trying to avoid bullion transactions in the trade with India - one direct consequence was on China.

[Pratyush]

Am currently reading the Translation of Mahabharat by Rajiv Menon. The translation discribes the Births of Arjun and Krisha as the incarnations of Vishnu as Nara and Narayana respectively. If this discription is accurate, then why is only Krishna considered an Avatar of Vishnu and not Arjun as well?

[niran]

Am currently reading the Translation of Mahabharat by Rajiv Menon. The translation discribes the Births of Arjun and Krisha as the incarnations of Vishnu as Nara and Narayana respectively. If this discription is accurate, then why is only Krishna considered an Avatar of Vishnu and not Arjun as well?

Nar was Arjun, Narayan was Lord Krishna, earlier, Nar was Manu, who got a boon from Lord Vishnu that whenever
The Lord takes an Avatar Manu will accompany him.

one story to ensoi
while Nar & Narayan were doing Tapasya Lord Indra got worried for his position, so to dig some traps he send his most beautiful and talented Apsaras, Narayan saw through the trick picked one flower and tapped it on his Thigh(Uru)
and the flower turned into more talented and beautiful Apsara since she was from Uru and had vash mai all other Apsaras she was named Urvashi Narayan gifted her to Indra.

[Murugan]

Murugan ji,
perhaps we should not compare periods when token currency was virtually unknown or not relied upon, and values depended on the actual quantity or purity of precious metal in currency - with periods when token currency is more common. The entire basis of "valuation" of currency was changed from the earlier period we were referring to [approx 750-1100 in the north] and the British consolidation on the subcontinent. There were some pretty well-known dances and far-reaching political/military impact of the British attempts at trying to avoid bullion transactions in the trade with India - one direct consequence was on China.

Ok

[brihaspati]

Am currently reading the Translation of Mahabharat by Rajiv Menon. The translation discribes the Births of Arjun and Krisha as the incarnations of Vishnu as Nara and Narayana respectively. If this discription is accurate, then why is only Krishna considered an Avatar of Vishnu and not Arjun as well?

Nar was Arjun, Narayan was Lord Krishna, earlier, Nar was Manu, who got a boon from Lord Vishnu that whenever
The Lord takes an Avatar Manu will accompany him.

one story to ensoi
while Nar & Narayan were doing Tapasya Lord Indra got worried for his position, so to dig some traps he send his most beautiful and talented Apsaras, Narayan saw through the trick picked one flower and tapped it on his Thigh(Uru)
and the flower turned into more talented and beautiful Apsara since she was from Uru and had vash mai all other Apsaras she was named Urvashi Narayan gifted her to Indra.

It is the human-divine split. Apart from the "water" context [-Apaah] the "ayana" attached to "Nara" as human, could imply the "guide" or the one who sets the "direction/goal" of Nara - the human. The guide needs someone to guide, and the guided needs the guide - so it is mutually symbiotic relationship. Could be a fundamental Vedic or even pre-Vedic concept of the spiritual progression from mere "animal" to "spiritual".

[saadhak]

Am currently reading the Translation of Mahabharat by Rajiv Menon. The translation discribes the Births of Arjun and Krisha as the incarnations of Vishnu as Nara and Narayana respectively. If this discription is accurate, then why is only Krishna considered an Avatar of Vishnu and not Arjun as well?

Nar was Arjun, Narayan was Lord Krishna, earlier, Nar was Manu, who got a boon from Lord Vishnu that whenever
The Lord takes an Avatar Manu will accompany him.

one story to ensoi
while Nar & Narayan were doing Tapasya Lord Indra got worried for his position, so to dig some traps he send his most beautiful and talented Apsaras, Narayan saw through the trick picked one flower and tapped it on his Thigh(Uru)
and the flower turned into more talented and beautiful Apsara since she was from Uru and had vash mai all other Apsaras she was named Urvashi Narayan gifted her to Indra.

One more nugget. It is said that Nar and Narayana have been and continue to do tapasya for the good of the creation. The location is Badrik Ashram in the Himalayas. Maharishi Ved Vyas is also believed to live to the north of Badrik Ashram.

[devesh]

Badri has an interesting history. the main Nara-Narayana deity of the temple was rescued by Adi Shankara when he visited the place. history has it that the Buddhists threw away the deity into the river, and that Narayana himself appeared in a dream to Shankara and told him to rescue the deity. Shankara did so and installed the Advaita Namboodiris as the priests of Badri. Ramanuja visited the place later on. today, it is, along with Sri Rangam (Tamil Nadu) and Tirumala, the foremost sacred place for Vaishnavas.

[RamaY]

From Udyoga Parva

'Then 1. Yuyudhana, the great hero of the Satwata race,
came to Yudhishthira with a large army of foot, and horses and cars and
elephants. And his soldiers of great valour come from various lands, bore
various weapons of war, and heroic in look they beautified the Pandava
army. And that army looked splendid by reason of battleaxes, and missiles
and spears, and lances, and mallets, and clubs, and staves, and cords,
and stainless swords, and daggers, and arrows of various kinds, all of
the best temper. And the army, beautified by those weapons, and
resembling in colour the cloudy sky, assumed an appearance like to amass
of clouds with lightning-flashes in its midst. And the army counted an
Akshauhini of troops. And when absorbed in the troops of Yudhishthira it
entirely disappeared, as doth a small river when it enters the sea. And
similarly, the 2. powerful chief of the Chedis, Dhrishtaketu, accompanied by
an Akshauhini, came to the sons of Pandu of immeasurable strength. And
the 3. king of Magadha, Jayatsena {son of Jarasandha} of great strength, brought with him for
Yudhishthira an Akshauhini of troops. And similarly, 4. Pandya, who dwelt on
the coast-land near the sea, came accompanied by troops of various kinds
to Yudhishthira, the king of kings. And, O king, when all these troops
had assembled, his army, finely dressed and exceedingly strong, assumed
an appearance pleasant to the eye. And the 5. army of Drupada, also was
beautified by valiant soldiers who had come from various lands, and also
by his mighty sons. And similarly, Virata, the king of the Matsyas, a
leader of troops, accompanied by the king of the hilly regions, came to
Pandu's sons. And for the high-souled sons of Pandu there were thus
assembled from various directions, seven Akshauhini of troops, bristling
with banners of various forms. And eager to fight with the Kurus, they
gladdened the hearts of the Pandavas.

On Kaurava's Side

And in the same way king
Bhagadatta, gladdening the heart of Dhritarashtra's son, gave an
Akshauhini of troops to him. And the unassailable mass of his troops,
crowded with Chins and Kiratas, all looking like figures of gold, assumed
a beauty like to that of a forest of Karnikara trees. And so the valiant
Bhurisravas, and Salya, O son of Kuru, came to Duryodhana, with an
Akshauhini of troops each. And Kritavarman, the son of Hridika,
accompanied by the Bhojas, the Andhas, and the Kukuras, came to
Duryodhana with an Akshauhini of troops. And the body of his troops
composed of those mighty soldiers, who wore on their persons garlands of
many-coloured flowers, looked as graceful as a number of sportive
elephants that have passed through a wood. And others led by Jayadratha,
the dwellers of the land of Sindhusauvira, came in such force that the
hills seemed to tremble under their tread. And their force, counting an
Akshauhini, looked like a mass of clouds moved by the wind. And
Sudakshina, the king of the Kambhojas, O ruler of men, accompanied by the
Yavanas and Sakas, came to the Kuru chief with an Akshauhini of troops.
And the body of his troops that looked like a flight of locusts, meeting
with the Kuru force, was absorbed and disappeared in it. And similarly
came king Nila, the resident of the city of the Mahishmati, with mighty
soldiers from the southern country who carried weapons of pretty make.
And the two kings of Avanti, accompanied by a mighty force, brought to
Duryodhana, each a separate Akshauhini of troops. And those tigers among
men, the five royal brothers, the princes of Kekaya, hastened to
Duryodhana with an Akshauhini of troops, and gladdened his heart. And
from the illustrious king, of other quarters there came, O best of
Bharata's race, three large divisions of troops. And thus Duryodhana had
a force which numbered eleven Akshauhinis all eager to fight with the
sons of Kunti, and bristling with banners of various forms. And, O
descendant of Bharata, there was no space in the city of Hastinapura even
for the principal leaders of Duryodhana's army. And for this reason the
land of the five rivers, and the whole of the region called Kurujangala,
and the forest of Rohitaka which was uniformly wild, and Ahichatra and
Kalakuta, and the banks of the Ganga, and Varana, and Vatadhana, and the
hill tracts on the border of the Yamuna--the whole of this extensive
tract--full of abundant corn and wealth, was entirely overspread with the
army of the Kauravas. And that army, so arranged, was beheld by the
priest who had been sent by the king of the Panchalas to the Kurus.'"

[RamaY]

The famous Sanjaya Rayabara episode in MahaBharata.

Please note the tone and logic of Sanjaya to persuade Pandavas to stay where they are and do not go to war with Kauravas.

We used to have a lesson on this in 10th grade. The first person who reminded me of this was the infamous Tony Montana. Nowadays I notice too many Sanjayas in threadbare.

I hope people see thru it and understand the difference between sanjaya's and DharmaRaja's positions.

'Having beard these words of king Dhritarashtra
> Sanjaya went to Upaplavya to see the Pandavas of immeasurable strength.
> And having approached king Yudhishthira, the son of Kunti, he made
> obeisance to him first and then spoke. And the son of Gavalgana, by name
> Sanjaya and by caste a Suta, cheerfully spoke unto Ajatasatru, 'How
> lucky, O king, that I see you hale, attended by friends and little
> inferior to the great Indra. The aged and wise king Dhritarashtra, the
> son of Ambika, hath enquired about your welfare. I hope Bhimasena is
> well, and that Dhananjaya, that foremost of the Pandavas, and these two
> sons of Madri, are well. I hope princess Krishna also, the daughter of
> Drupada, is well,--she who never swerves from the path of truth, that
> lady of great energy, that wife of heroes. I hope she is well with her
> sons,--she in whom are centred all your dearest joys and whose welfare
> you constantly pray for.'
>
> "Yudhishthira said, 'O Sanjaya, the son of Gavalgana, hath thy journey
> here been safe? We are pleased with thy sight. I ask thee in return how
> thou art. I am, O learned man, in excellent health with my younger
> brothers. O Suta, after a long while do I now receive news of the aged
> king of the Kurus, that descendant of Bharata. Having seen thee, O
> Sanjaya, I feel as if I have seen the king himself, so pleased I am! Is
> our aged grandsire Bhishma, the descendant of Kuru, endued with great
> energy and the highest wisdom and always devoted to the practices of his
> own order, O sire, in health? I hope he still retains all his former
> habits. I hope the high-souled king Dhritarashtra, the so-n of
> Vichitravirya, is in health with his sons. I hope the great king Vahlika,
> the son of Pratipa, endued with great learning, is also in health. I
> hope, O sire, that Somadatta is in health, and Bhurisravas, and
> Satyasandha, and Sala, and Drona with his son, and the Brahmana Kripa are
> also well. I hope all those mighty bowmen are free from disease. O
> Sanjaya, all those greatest and best of bowmen, endued with the highest
> intelligence and versed in letters, and occupying the very top of those
> who wield weapons, have attached themselves to the Kurus. I hope those
> bowmen receive their honours due. I hope they are free from disease. How
> happy are they in whose kingdom dwells the mighty and handsome bowman,
> the well-behaved son of Drona! I hope Yuyutsu, the highly intelligent son
> of Dhritarashtra by his Vaisya wife is in health. I hope, O sire, the
> adviser Karna, whose counsels are followed by the dull-headed Suyodhana,
> is in health. I hope, the aged ladies, the mothers of the Bharata race,
> and the kitchen-maidens, the bond-maids, the daughters-in-law, the boys,
> the sister's sons, and 'the sisters, and the daughters' sons of
> Dhritarashtra's house are all free from trouble. O sire, I hope the king
> still allows their former subsistence to the Brahmanas. I hope, O
> Sanjaya, Dhritarashtra's son hath not seized those gifts to the Brahmanas
> that I made. I hope Dhritarashtra with his sons meets in a spirit of
> forbearance any over-bearing conduct on the part of the Brahmanas. I hope
> he never neglects to make provision for them, that being the sole highway
> to heaven. For this is the excellent and clear light that hath been
> provided by the Creator in this world of living beings. If like
> dull-headed persons, the sons of Kuru do not treat the Brahmanas in a
> forbearing spirit, wholesale destruction will overtake them. I hope king
> Dhritarashtra and his son try to provide for the functionaries of state.
> I hope there are no enemies for theirs, who, disguised as friends, are
> conspiring for their ruin. O sire, I hope none of these Kurus talk of our
> having committed any crimes. I hope Drona and his son and the heroic
> Kripa do not talk of our having been guilty in any way. I hope all the
> Kurus look up to king Dhritarashtra and his sons as the protectors of
> their tribe. I hope when they see a horde of robbers, they remember the
> deeds of Arjuna, the leader in all fields of battle. I hope they remember
> the arrows shot from the Gandiva, which course through the air in a
> straight path, impelled onwards by the stretched bow-string in contact
> with the fingers of his hand, and making a noise loud as that of the
> thunder. I have not seen the warrior that excels or even rivals Arjuna
> who can shoot by a single effort of his hand sixty-one whetted and
> keen-edged shafts furnished with excellent feathers. Do they remember
> Bhima also, who, endued with great activity causeth hostile hosts arrayed
> in battle to tremble in dread, like an elephant with rent temples
> agitating a forest of reeds? Do they remember the mighty Sahadeva, the
> son of Madri, who in Dantakura conquered the Kalingas, shooting arrows by
> both the left and right hand? Do they remember Nakula, who, O Sanjaya,
> was sent, under your eye, to conquer the Sivis and the Trigartas, and who
> brought the western region under my power? Do they remember the disgrace
> that was theirs when under evil counsels they came to the woods of
> Dwaitavana on pretence of taking away their cattle? Those wicked ones
> having been over-powered by their enemies were afterwards liberated by
> Bhimasena and Arjuna, myself protecting the rear of Arjuna (in the fight
> that ensued) and Bhima protecting the rear of the sons of Madri, and the
> wielder of the Gandiva coming out unharmed from the press of battle
> having made a great slaughter of the hostile host,--do they remember
> that? It is not by a single good deed, O Sanjaya, that happiness can here
> be attained, when by all our endeavours we are unable to win over the son
> of Dhritarashtra!"
>
>
>
> SECTION XXIV
>
> "Sanjaya said, 'It is even so as thou hast said, O son of Pandu! Dost
> thou enquire about the welfare of the Kurus and of the foremost ones
> among them? Free from illness of every kind and in the possession of
> excellent spirit are those foremost ones among the Kurus about whom, O
> son of Pritha, thou enquirest. Know, O son of Pandu, that there are
> certainly righteous and aged men, as also men that are sinful and wicked
> about Dhritarashtra's son. Dhritarashtra's son would make gifts even to
> his enemies; it is not likely, therefore, that he should withdraw the
> donations made to the Brahmanas. It is customary with you, Kshatriyas, to
> follow a rule fit for butchers, that leads you to do harm to those that
> bear no ill-will to you; but the practice is not good. Dhritarashtra with
> his sons would be guilty of the sin of intestine dissension, where he,
> like a bad man, to bear ill-will towards you who are righteous. He does
> not approve of this injury (done to you); he is exceedingly sorry for it;
> he grieves at his heart-the old man--O Yudhishthira,--for, having
> communicated with the Brahmanas, he hath learnt that provoking intestine
> dissensions is the greatest of all sins. O king of men, they remember thy
> prowess on the field, and that of Arjuna, who taketh the lead in the
> field of battle. They remember Bhima wielding his mace when the sound of
> the conch-shell and the drum rises to the highest pitch. They remember
> those mighty car-warriors, the two sons of Madri, who on the field of
> battle career in all directions, shooting incessant showers of shafts on
> hostile hosts, and who know not what it is to tremble in fight. I
> believe, O king, that which Futurity hath in store for a particular
> person cannot be known, since thou, O son of Pandu, who art endowed with
> all the virtues, hast had to suffer trouble of such unendurable kind. All
> this, no doubt, O Yudhishthira, thou wilt again make up by help of your
> intelligence. The sons of Pandu, all equal to Indra would never abandon
> virtue for the sake of pleasure. Thou, O Yudhishthira, wilt so make up
> thy intelligence that they all, viz., the sons of Dhritarashtra and Pandu
> and the Srinjayas, and all the kings who have been assembled here, will
> attain peace. O Yudhishthira, bear what thy sire Dhritarashtra having
> consulted with his ministers and sons, hath spoken to me. Be attentive to
> the same.'"
>
>
>
> SECTION XXV
>
> "Yudhishthira said, 'Here are met the Pandavas and the Srinjayas, and
> Krishna, and Yuyudhana and Virata, O son of the Suta Gavalgana, tell us
> all that Dhritarashtra hath directed thee to say.'
>
> "Sanjaya said, 'I greet Yudhishthira, and Vrikodara and Dhananjaya, and
> the two sons of Madri, and Vasudeva the descendant of Sura, and Satyaki,
> and the aged ruler of the Panchalas, and Dhrishtadyumna, the son of
> Prishata. Let all listen to the words I say from a desire for the welfare
> of the Kurus. King Dhritarashtra, eagerly welcoming the chance of peace,
> hastened the preparation of my car for this journey here. Let it be
> acceptable to king Yudhishthira with his brothers and sons and relations.
> Let the son of Pandu prefer peace. The sons of Pritha are endowed with
> every virtue with steadiness and mildness and candour. Born in a high
> family, they are humane, liberal, and loath to do any act which would
> bring on shame. They know what is proper to be done. A base deed is not
> befitting you, for you are so high-minded, and have such a terrible
> following of troops. If you committed a sinful act, it would be a blot on
> your fair name, as a drop of collyrium on a white cloth. Who could
> knowingly be ever guilty of an act, which would result in universal
> slaughter, which would be sinful and lead to hell,--an act consisting in
> the destruction (of men), an act the result of which, whether it be
> victory or defeat, is or the self-same value? Blessed are they that have
> served their relative's cause. They are the true sons and friends and
> relatives (of Kuru's race) who would lay down life, life which is liable
> to be abused by misdeeds, in order to ensure the welfare of the Kurus. If
> you, ye sons of Pritha, chastise the Kurus, by defeating and slaying all
> your foes,--that subsequent life of yours would be equivalent to death,
> for what, in sooth, is life after having killed all your kinsfolk? Who,
> even if he were Indra himself with all the gods on his side, would be
> able to defeat you who are aided by Kesava and Chekitanas, and Satyaki,
> and are protected by Dhrishtadyumna's arms? Who again, O king, can defeat
> in battle the Kurus who are protected by Drona and Bhishma, and
> Aswatthaman, and Salya, and Kripa and Karna with a host of Kshatriya
> kings? Who, without loss to himself, is able to slay the vast force
> assembled by Dhritarashtra's son? Therefore it is, that I do not see any
> good either in victory or in defeat. How can the sons of Pritha, like
> base persons of low lineage, commit an act of unrighteousness? Therefore,
> I appease, I prostrate myself before Krishna and the aged kin I g of the
> Panchalas. I betake myself to you as my refuge, with joined hands, so
> that both the Kurus and the Srinjayas may be benefited. It is not likely
> that either Krishna or Dhananjaya will not act up to these my words.
> Either of them would lay down his life, if besought (to do so).
> Therefore, I say this for the success of my mission. This is the desire
> of the king and his counsellor Bhishma, that there may be confirmed peace
> between you (and the Kurus).'"
>
>
>
> SECTION XXVI
>
> "Yudhishthira said, 'What words from me, O Sanjaya, hast thou heard,
> indicative of war, that thou apprehendest war? O sire, peace is
> preferable to war. Who, O charioteer, having got the other alternative
> would wish to fight? It is known to me, O Sanjaya, that if a man can have
> every wish of his heart without having to do anything, he would hardly
> like to do anything even though it might be of the least troublesome
> kind, far less would he engage in war. Why should a man ever go to war?
> Who is so cursed by the gods that he would select war? The sons of
> Pritha, no doubt, desire their own happiness but their conduct is ever
> marked by righteousness and conducive to the good of the world. They
> desire only that happiness which results from righteousness. He that
> fondly followeth the lead of his senses, and is desirous of obtaining
> happiness and avoiding misery, betaketh himself to action which in its
> essence is nothing but misery. He that hankers after pleasure causeth his
> body to suffer; one free from such hankering knoweth not what misery is.
> As an enkindled fire, if more fuel be put upon it, blazeth forth again
> with augmented force, so desire is never satiated with the acquisition of
> its object but gaineth force like unkindled fire when clarified butter is
> poured upon it. Compare all this abundant fund of enjoyment which king
> Dhritarashtra hath with what we possess. He that is unfortunate never
> winneth victories. He that is unfortunate enjoyeth not the voice of
> music. He that is unfortunate doth not enjoy garlands and scents! nor can
> one that is unfortunate enjoy cool and fragrant unguents! and finally he
> that is unfortunate weareth not fine clothes. If this were not so, we
> would never have been driven from the Kurus. Although, however, all this
> is true, yet none cherished torments of the heart. The king being himself
> in trouble seeketh protection in the might of others. This is not wise.
> Let him, however, receive from others the same behaviour that he displays
> towards them. The man who casteth a burning fire at midday in the season
> of spring in a forest of dense underwood, hath certainly, when that fire
> blazeth forth by aid of the wind, to grieve for his lot if he wisheth to
> escape. O Sanjaya, why doth king Dhritarashtra now bewail, although he
> hath all this prosperity? It is because he had followed at first the
> counsels of his wicked son of vicious soul, addicted to crooked ways and
> confirmed in folly. Duryodhana disregarded the words of Vidura, the best
> of his well-wishers, as if the latter were hostile to him. King
> Dhritarashtra, desirous solely of satisfying his sons, would knowingly
> enter upon an unrighteous course. Indeed, on account of his fondness for
> his son, he would not pay heed to Vidura, who, out of all the Kurus, is
> the wisest and best of all his well-wishers, possessing vast learning,
> clever in speech, and righteous in act. King Dhritarashtra is desirous of
> satisfying his son, who, while himself seeking honours from others, is
> envious and wrathful, who transgresses the rules for the acquisition of
> virtue and wealth, whose tongue is foul, who always follows the dictates
> of his wrath, whose soul is absorbed in sensual pleasures, and who, full
> of unfriendly feelings to many, obeys no law, and whose life is evil,
> heart implacable, and understanding vicious. For such a son as this, king
> Dhritarashtra knowingly abandoned virtue and pleasure. Even then, O
> Sanjaya, when I was engaged in that game of dice I thought that the
> destruction of the Kurus was at hand, for when speaking those wise and
> excellent words Vidura obtained no praise from Dhritarashtra. Then, O
> charioteer, did trouble overtake the Kurus when they disregarded the
> words of Vidura. So long as they had placed themselves under the lead of
> his wisdom, their kingdom was in a flourishing state. Hear from me, O
> charioteer, who are the counsellors now of the covetous Duryodhana. They
> are Dussasana, and Sakuni the son of Suvala, and Karna the Suta's son! O
> son of Gavalgana, look at this folly of his! So I do not see, though I
> think about it, how there can be prosperity for the Kurus and the
> Srinjayas when Dhritarashtra hath taken the throne from others, and the
> far seeing Vidura hath been banished elsewhere. Dhritarashtra with his
> sons is now looking for an extensive and undisputed sovereignty over the
> whole world. Absolute peace is, therefore, unattainable. He regardeth
> what he hath already got to be his own. When Arjuna taketh up his weapon
> in fight, Karna believeth him capable of being withstood. Formerly there
> took place many great battles. Why could not Karna then be of any avail
> to them. It is known to Karna and Drona and the grandsire Bhishma, as
> also to many other Kurus, that there is no wielder of the bow, comparable
> to Arjuna. It is known to all the assembled rulers of the earth, how the
> sovereignty was obtained by Duryodhana although that repressor of foes,
> Arjuna, was alive. Pertinanciously doth Dhritarashtra's son believe that
> it is possible to rob the sons of Pandu of what is their own, although he
> knoweth having himself gone to the place of fight, how Arjuna comforted
> himself when he had nothing but a bow four cubits long for his weapon of
> battle. Dhritarashtra's sons are alive simply because they have not as
> yet heard that twang of the stretch Gandiva. Duryodhana believeth his
> object already gained, as long as he beholdeth not the wrathful Bhima. O
> sire, even Indra would forbear to rob us of our sovereignty as long as
> Bhima and Arjuna and the heroic Nakula and the patient Sahadeva are
> alive! O charioteer, the old king with his son still entertains the
> notion that his sons will not be perished, O Sanjaya, on the field of
> battle, consumed by the fiery wrath of Pandu's sons. Thou knowest, O
> Sanjaya, what misery we have suffered! For my respect to thee, I would
> forgive them all. Thou knowest what transpired between ourselves and
> those sons of Kuru. Thou knowest how we comforted ourselves towards
> Dhritarashtra's son. Let the same state of things still continue, I shall
> seek peace, as thou counsellest me to do. Let me have Indraprastha for my
> kingdom, Let this be given to me by Duryodhana, the chief of Bharata's
> race.'"
>
>
>
> SECTION XXVII
>
> "Sanjaya said, 'O Pandava, the world hath heard thy conduct being
> righteous. I see it also to be so, O son of Pritha. Life is transient,
> that may end in great infamy; considering this, thou shouldst not perish.
> O Ajatasatru, if without war, the Kurus will not yield thy share, I
> think, it is far better for thee to live upon alms in the kingdom of the
> Andhakas and the Vrishnis than obtain sovereignty by war. Since this
> mortal existence is for only a short period, and greatly liable to blame,
> subject to constant suffering, and unstable, and since it is never
> comparable to a good name, therefore, O Pandava, never perpetrate a sin.
> It is the desires, O ruler of men, which adhere to mortal men and are an
> obstruction to a virtuous life. Therefore, a wise man should beforehand
> kill them all and thereby gain a stainless fame in the world, O son of
> Pritha. The thirst after wealth is but like fetter in this world; the
> virtue of those that seek it is sure to suffer. He is wise who seeketh
> virtue alone; desires being increased, a man must suffer in his temporal
> concerns, O sire. Placing virtue before all other concerns of life, a man
> shineth like the sun when its splendour is great. A man devoid of virtue,
> and of vicious soul, is overtaken by ruin, although he may obtain the
> whole of this earth. Thou hast studied the Vedas, lived the life of a
> saintly Brahman, hast performed sacrificial rites, made charities to
> Brahmanas. Even remembering the highest position (attainable by beings),
> thou hast also devoted thy soul for years and years to the pursuit of
> pleasure. He who, devoting himself excessively to the pleasures and joys
> of life, never employeth himself in the practice of religious meditation,
> must be exceedingly miserable. His joys forsake him after his wealth is
> gone and his strong instincts goad him on towards his wonted pursuit of
> pleasure. Similarly, he who, never having lived a continent life,
> forsaketh the path of virtue and commiteth sin, hath no faith in
> existence of a world to come. Dull as he is after death he hath torment
> (for his lot). In the world to come, whether one's deeds be good or evil
> these deeds are in no case, annihilated. Deeds, good and evil, precede
> the agent (in his journey to the world to come); the agent is sure to
> follow in their path. Your work (in this life) is celebrated by all as
> comparable to that food, savoury and dainty, which is proper to be
> offered with reverence to the Brahmanas--the food which is offered in
> religious ceremonies with large donations (to the officiating priests).
> All acts are done, so long as this body lasts, O son of Pritha. After
> death there is nothing to be done. And thou hast done mighty deeds that
> will do good to thee in the world to come, and they are admired by
> righteous men. There (in the next world) one is free from death and
> decrepitude and fear, and from hunger and thirst, and from all that is
> disagreeable to the mind; there is nothing to be done in that place,
> unless it be to delight one's senses. Of this kind, O ruler of men, is
> the result of our deeds. Therefore, do not from desire act any longer in
> this world. Do not, O Pandu's son, betake to action in this world and
> thereby thus take leave of truth and sobriety and candour and humanity.
> Thou mayst perform the Rajasuya and the Aswamedha sacrifices, but do not
> even come near an action which in itself is sin! If after such a length
> of time, ye sons of Pritha, you now give way to hate, and commit the
> sinful deed, in vain, for virtue's sake, did ye dwell for years and years
> in the woods in such misery! It was in vain that you went to exile, after
> parting with all your army; for this army was entirely in your control
> then. And these persons who are now assisting you, have been always
> obedient to you,--this Krishna, and Satyaki, and Virata of the golden
> car, of Matsya land, with his son at the head of martial warriors. All
> the kings, formerly vanquished by you would have espoused your cause at
> first. Possessed of mighty resources, dreaded by all, having an army, and
> followed behind by Krishna and Arjuna, you might have slain your foremost
> of foes on the field of battle. You might have (then) brought low
> Duryodhana's pride. O Pandava, why have you allowed your foes to grow so
> powerful? Why have you weakened your friends? Why have you sojourned in
> the woods for years and years? Why are you now desirous of fighting,
> having let the proper opportunity slip? An unwise or an unrighteous man
> may win prosperity by means of fighting; but a wise and a righteous man,
> were he free from pride to betake to fight (against better instinct),
> doth only fall away from a prosperous path. O Pritha's son, your
> understanding inclines not to an unrighteous course. From wrath you ever
> committed a sinful act. Then what is the cause, and what is the reason,
> for which you are now intent to do this deed, against the dictates of
> wisdom? Wrath, O mighty king, is a bitter drug, though it has nothing to
> do with disease; it brings on a disease of the head, robs one of his fair
> fame, and leads to sinful acts. It is drunk up (controlled) by those that
> are righteous and not by those that are unrighteous. I ask you to swallow
> it and to desist from war. Who would incline himself to wrath which leads
> to sin? Forbearance would be more beneficial to you than love of
> enjoyments where Bhishma would be slain, and Drona with his son, and
> Kripa, and Somadatta's son, and Vikarna and Vivingsati, and Karna and
> Duryodhana. Having slain all these, what bliss may that be, O Pritha's
> son, which you will get? Tell me that! Even having won the entire
> sea-girt earth, you will never be free from decrepitude and death,
> pleasure and pain, bliss and misery. Knowing all this, do not be engaged
> in war. If you are desirous of taking this course, because your
> counsellors desire the same, then give up (everything) to them, and run
> away. You should not fall away from this path which leads to the region
> of the gods!'"
>
>
>
> SECTION XXVIII
>
> "Yudhishthira said, 'Without doubt, O Sanjaya, it is true that righteous
> deeds are the foremost of all our acts, as thou sayest. Thou shouldst,
> however, ensure me having first ascertained whether it is virtue or vice
> that I practise. When vice assumes the aspects of virtue and virtue
> itself wholly seems as vice, and virtue, again, appears in its native
> form, they that are learned should discriminate it by means of their
> reason. So, again, virtue and vice, which are both eternal and absolute,
> exchange their aspects during seasons of distress. One should follow
> without deviation the duties prescribed for the order to which he belongs
> by birth. Know, O Sanjaya, that duties in seasons of distress are
> otherwise. When his means of living are totally gone, the man, that is
> destitute should certainly desire those other means by which he may be
> able to discharge the sanctioned duties of his order. One that is not
> destitute of his means of living, as also one that is in distress, are, O
> Sanjaya, both to be blamed, if they act as if the state of each were
> otherwise. When the Creator hath ordained expiation for those Brahmanas,
> who, without wishing for self-destruction, betake themselves to acts not
> sanctioned for them, this proves that people may, in season of distress,
> betake to acts not ordained for the orders to which they belong. And, O
> Sanjaya, thou shouldst regard them as worthy that adhere to the practices
> of their own order in usual times as also those that do not adhere to
> them in season of distress; thou shouldst censure them that act otherwise
> in usual times while adhering to their ordained practices during times of
> distress. As regards men desiring to bring their minds under control,
> when they endeavour to acquire a knowledge of self, the practices that
> are ordained for the best, viz., the Brahmanas, are equally ordained for
> them. As regards those, however, that are not Brahmanas and that do not
> endeavour to acquire knowledge of self, those practices should be
> followed by them that are ordained for their respective orders in seasons
> of distress or otherwise. Even that is the path followed by our fathers
> and grandfathers before us and those also that had lived before them. As
> regards those that are desirous of knowledge and avoiding to act, even
> these also hold the same view and regard themselves as orthodox. I do
> not, therefore, think that there is any other path. Whatsoever wealth
> there may be in this earth, whatsoever there may be among the gods, or
> whatsoever there may be unattainable by them,--the region of the
> Prajapati, or heaven or the region of Brahma himself, I would not, O
> Sanjaya, seek it by unrighteous means. Here is Krishna, the giver of
> virtue's fruits, who is clever, politic, intelligent, who has waited upon
> the Brahmanas, who knows everything' and counsels various mighty kings.
> Let the celebrated Krishna say whether I would be censurable if I dismiss
> all idea of peace, of whether if I fight, I should be abandoning the
> duties of my caste, for Krishna seeketh the welfare of both sides. This
> Satyaki, these Chedis, the Andhakas, the Vrishnis, the Bhojas, the
> Kukuras, the Srinjayas, adopting the counsels of Krishna, slay their foes
> and delight their friends. The Vrishnis and the Andhakas, at whose head
> stands Ugrasena, led by Krishna, have become like Indra, high-spirited,
> devoted to truth, mighty, and happy. Vabhru, the king of Kasi, having
> obtained Krishna, that fructifier of wishes, as his brother, and upon
> whom Krishna showers all the blessings of life, as the clouds upon all
> earthly creatures, when the hot season is over, hath attained the highest
> prosperity, O sire, so great is this Krishna! Him you must know as the
> great judge of the propriety or otherwise of all acts. Krishna is dear to
> us, and is the most illustrious of men. I never disregard what Krishna
> sayeth.'"
>
>
>
> SECTION XXIX
>
> "Krishna said, 'I desire, O Sanjaya, that the sons of Pandu may not be
> ruined; that they may prosper, and attain their wishes. Similarly, I pray
> for the prosperity of king Dhritarashtra whose sons are many. For
> evermore, O Sanjaya, my desire hath been that I should tell them nothing
> else than that peace would be acceptable to king Dhritarashtra. I also
> deem it proper for the sons of Pandu. A peaceful disposition of an
> exceedingly rare character hath been displayed by Pandu's son in this
> matter. When Dhritarashtra and his sons, however, are so covetous, I do
> not see why hostility should not run high? Thou canst not pretend, O
> Sanjaya, to be more versed than I am or Yudhishthira. is, in the niceties
> of right and wrong. Then why dost thou speak words of reproach with
> reference to the conduct of Yudhishthira who is enterprising, mindful of
> his own duty, and thoughtful, from the very beginning, of the welfare of
> his family, agreeably to the injunctions (of treatises of morality)? With
> regard to the topic at hand, the Brahmanas have held opinions of various
> kinds. Some say that success in the world to come depends upon work. Some
> declare that action should be shunned and that salvation is attainable by
> knowledge. The Brahmanas say--that though one may have a knowledge of
> eatable things, yet his hunger will not be appeased unless he actually
> eats. Those branches of knowledge that help the doing of work, bear
> fruit, but not other kinds, for the fruit of work is of ocular
> demonstration. A thirsty person drinks water, and by that act his thirst
> is allayed. This result proceeds, no doubt, from work. Therein lies the
> efficacy of work. If anyone thinks that something else is better than
> work, I deem, his work and his words are meaningless. In the other world,
> it is by virtue of work that the gods flourish. It is by work that the
> wind blows. It is by virtue of work that the sleepless Surya rises every
> day and becomes the cause of day and night, and Soma passes through the
> months and the fortnights and the combinations of constellations. Fire is
> kindled of itself and burns by virtue of work, doing good to mankind. The
> sleepless goddess Earth, sustains by force this very great burden. The
> sleepless rivers, giving satisfaction to all (organised) beings, carry
> their waters with speed. The sleepless Indra, possessed of a mighty
> force, pours down rain, resounding the heaven and the cardinal points.
> Desirous of being the greatest of the gods, he led a life of austerities
> such as a holy Brahmana leads. Indra gave up pleasure, and all things
> agreeable to the heart. He sedulously cherished virtue and truth and
> self-control, and forbearance, and impartiality, and humanity. It was by
> work that he attained a position the highest (of all). Following the
> above course of life, Indra attained the high sovereignty over the gods.
> Vrihaspati, intently and with self-control, led in a proper manner that
> life of austerities which a Brahmana leads. He gave up pleasure and
> controlled his senses and thereby attained the position of the preceptor
> of the celestials. Similarly, the constellations in the other world, by
> virtue of work, and the Rudras, the Adityas, the Vasus, king Yama, and
> Kuvera, and the Gandharvas, the Yakshas, and the celestial nymphs, all
> attained their present position by work. In the other world, the saints
> shine, following a life of study, austerity and work (combined). Knowing,
> O Sanjaya, that this is the rule followed by the best of Brahmanas, and
> Kshatriyas, and Vaisyas, and thou being one of the wisest men,--why art
> thou making this endeavour on behalf of those sons of Kurus? Thou must
> know that Yudhishthira is constantly engaged in the study of the Vedas.
> He is inclined to the horse-sacrifice and the Rajasuya. Again, he rides
> horses and elephants, is arrayed in armour, mounts a car, and takes up
> the bow and all kinds of weapons. Now, if the sons of Pritha can see a
> course of action not involving the slaughter of the sons of Kuru, they
> would adopt it. Their virtue would then be saved, and an act of religious
> merit also would be achieved by them, even if they would have then to
> force Bhima to follow a conduct marked by humanity. On the other hand, if
> in doing what their forefathers did, they should meet with death under
> inevitable destiny, then in trying their utmost to discharge their duty,
> such death would even be worthy of praise. Supposing thou approvest of
> peace alone I should like to hear what thou mayst have to say to this
> question,--which way doth the injunction of religious law lie, viz.,
> whether it is proper for the king to fight or not?--Thou must, O Sanjaya,
> take into thy consideration the division of the four castes, and the
> scheme of respective duties allotted to each. Thou must hear that course
> of action the Pandavas are going to adopt. Then mayst thou praise or
> censure, just as it may please thee. A Brahmana should study, offer
> sacrifices, make charities, and sojourn to the best of all holy places on
> the earth; he should teach, minister as a priest in sacrifices offered by
> others worthy of such help, and accept gifts from persons who are known.
> Similarly, a Kshatriya should protect the people in accordance with the
> injunctions of the law, diligently practise the virtue of charity, offer
> sacrifices, study the whole Veda, take a wife, and lead a virtuous
> householder's life. If he be possessed of a virtuous soul, and if he
> practise the holy virtues, he may easily attain the religion of the
> Supreme Being. A Vaisya should study and diligently earn and accumulate
> wealth by means of commerce, agriculture, and the tending of cattle. He
> should so act as to please the Brahmanas and the Kshatriyas, be virtuous,
> do good works, and be a householder. The following are the duties
> declared for a Sudra from the olden times. He should serve the Brahmanas
> and submit to them; should not study; sacrifices are forbidden to him; he
> should be diligent and be constantly enterprising in doing all that is
> for his good. The king protects all these with (proper) care, and sets
> all the castes to perform their respective duties. He should not be given
> to sensual enjoyments. He should be impartial, and treat all his subjects
> on an equal footing. The King should never obey the dictates of such
> desires as are opposed to righteousness. If there be any body who is more
> praise-worthy than he, who is well-known and gifted with all the virtues,
> the king should instruct his subjects to see him. A bad (king), however,
> would not understand this. Growing strong, and inhuman and becoming a
> mark for destiny's wrath, he would cast covetous eye on the riches of
> others. Then comes war, for which purpose came into being weapons, and
> armour, and bows. Indra invented these contrivances, for putting the
> plunderers to death. He also contrived armours, and weapons, and bows.
> Religious merit is acquired by putting the robbers to death. Many awful
> evils have manifested themselves on account of the Kurus having been
> unrighteous, and unmindful of law and religion. This is not right, O
> Sanjaya. Now, king Dhritarashtra with his sons, hath unreasonably seized
> what lawfully belonged to Pandu's son. He minds not the immemorial law
> observable by kings. All the Kurus are following in the wake. A thief who
> steals wealth unseen and one who forcibly seizes the same, in open
> day-light, are both to be condemned, O Sanjaya. What is the difference
> between them and Dhritarashtra's sons? From avarice he regards that to be
> righteous which he intends to do, following the dictates of his wrath.
> The shares of the Pandavas is, no doubt, fixed. Why should that share of
> theirs be seized by that fool? This being the state of things, it would
> be praiseworthy for us to be even killed in fight. A paternal kingdom is
> preferable to sovereignty received from a stranger. These time-honoured
> rules of law, O Sanjaya, thou must propound to the Kurus, in the midst of
> the assembled kings,--I mean those dull-headed fools who have been
> assembled together by Dhritarashtra's son, and who are already under the
> clutches of death. Look once more at that vilest of all their acts,--the
> conduct of the Kurus in the council-hall. That those Kurus, at whose head
> stood Bhishma did not interfere when the beloved wife of the sons of
> Pandu, daughter of Drupada, of fare fame, pure life, and conduct worthy
> of praise, was seized, while weeping, by that slave of lust. The Kurus
> all, including young and old, were present there. If they had then
> prevented that indignity offered to her, then I should have been pleased
> with Dhritarashtra's behaviour. It would have been for the final good of
> his sons also. Dussasana forcibly took Krishna into the midst of the
> public hall wherein were seated her fathers-in-law. Carried there,
> expecting sympathy, she found none to take her part, except Vidura. The
> kings uttered not a word of protest, solely because they were a set of
> imbeciles. Vidura alone spoke words of opposition, from a sense of
> duty,--words conceived in righteousness addressed to that man
> (Duryodhana) of little sense. Thou didst not, O Sanjaya, then say what
> law and morality were, but now thou comest to instruct the son of Pandu!
> Krishna, however, having repaired to the hall at that time made
> everything right, for like a vessel in the sea, she rescued the Pandavas
> as also herself, from that gathering ocean (of misfortunes)! Then in that
> hall, while Krishna stood, the charioteer's son addressed her in the
> presence of her fathers-in-law saying, 'O Daughter of Drupada thou hast
> no refuge. Better betake thyself as a bond-woman to the house of
> Dhritarashtra's son. Thy husbands, being defeated, no longer exist. Thou
> hast a loving soul, choose some one else for thy lord.' This speech,
> proceeding from Karna, was a wordy arrow, sharp, cutting all hopes,
> hitting the tenderest parts of the organisation, and frightful. It buried
> itself deep in Arjuna's heart. When the sons of Pandu were about to adopt
> the garments made of the skins of black deer, Dussasana spoke the
> following pungent words, 'These all are mean eunuchs, ruined, and damned
> for a lengthened time.' And Sakuni, the king of the Gandhara land, spoke
> to Yudhishthira at the time of the game of dice the following words by
> way of a wily trick, 'Nakula hath been won by me from you, what else have
> you got? Now you should better stake your wife Draupadi'. You know, O
> Sanjaya, all these words of an approbrious kind which were spoken at the
> time of the game of dice. I desire to go personally to the Kurus, in
> order to settle this difficult matter. If without injury to the Pandava
> cause I succeed in bringing about this peace with the Kurus, an act of
> religious merit, resulting in very great blessings, will then have been
> done by me; and the Kurus also will have been extricated from the meshes
> of death. I hope that when I shall speak to the Kurus words of wisdom,
> resting on rules of righteousness, words fraught with sense and free from
> all tendency to inhumanity, Dhritarashtra's son will, in my presence, pay
> heed to them. I hope that when I arrive, the Kurus will pay me due
> respect. Else thou mayst rest assured that those vicious sons of
> Dhritarashtra, already scorched by their own vicious acts, will be burnt
> up by Arjuna and Bhima ready for battle. When Pandu's sons were defeated
> (at the play), Dhritarashtra's sons spoke to them words that were harsh
> and rude. But when the time will come, Bhima will, no doubt, take care to
> remind Duryodhana of those words. Duryodhana is a big tree of evil
> passions; Karna is its trunk; Sakuni is its branches; Dussasana forms its
> abundant blossoms and fruits; (while) the wise king Dhritarashtra is its
> toots. Yudhishthira is a big tree of righteousness; Arjuna is its trunk;
> and Bhima is its branches; the sons of Madri are its abundant flowers and
> fruits; and its roots are myself and religion and religious men. King
> Dhritarashtra with his sons constitutes a forest, while, O Sanjaya, the
> sons of Pandu are its tigers. Do not, oh, cut down the forest with its
> tigers, and let not the tigers be driven away from the forest. The tiger,
> out of the woods, is easily slain; the wood also, that is without a
> tiger, is easily cut down. Therefore, it is the tiger that protects the
> forest and the forest that shelters the tiger. The Dhritarashtras are as
> creepers, while, O Sanjaya, the Pandavas are Sala trees. A creeper can
> never flourish unless it hath a large tree to twine round. The sons of
> Pritha are ready to wait upon Dhritarashtra as, indeed, those repressors
> of foes are ready for war. Let king Dhritarashtra now do what may be
> proper for him to do. The virtuous and the high-souled sons of Pandu,
> though competent to be engaged in fight, are yet now in place (with their
> cousins). O learned man, represent all this truly (to Dhritarashtra).'"
>
>
>
> SECTION XXX
>
> "Sanjaya said, 'I did thee farewell, O divine ruler of men. I will now
> depart, O son of Pandu. Let prosperity be thine. I hope, I have not
> carried away by the feelings of my heart, given utterance to anything
> offensive. I would also bid farewell to Janardana, to Bhima and Arjuna,
> to the son of Madri, to Satyaki, and to Chekitana, and take my departure.
> Let peace and happiness be yours. Let all the kings look at me with eyes
> of affection.'

[brihaspati]

Thank you RamaY ji! Very appropriate!

[Klaus]

Excellent find RamaY ji. If you notice carefully, "Sanjayas" have always been the ones who have "recorded" history in one way or the other, transmitting it down to future generations. Same with DDM and Marxist historians of today, the basic layering of these personalities is diluted Sanjaya only. It is a quirk of fate that this conversation has gone under the radar, resulting in Ajatshatru having to be labelled with many of the tenets that should've been reserved for Sanjaya instead.

The reason I am using diluted is that Sanjaya himself was pretty knowledgeable and dharmic for today's standards.

[RamaY]

Klaus ji,

I am not as knowledgeable as others on this forum. But the issue is not individuals dharmicness. The important thing is on whose side they stood in the war.

This is the same logic used by the sympathizers of enemy lands. They always bring in the dharmic (or similar way of life = earning their two meals a day and pursuit of happiness etc) nature of individuals. As we see in MB war, the dharmic nature of any individual on Kauravas sie couldn't save a single soul.

Same goes with todays holy lands. The society, by virtue of sustaining and tolerating an adharmic rashtra, will have to bear the brunt of dharma. It is a differennt matter if that dharma (karma phala) is delivered by Bharat or someone else.

I will end this with an observation. A key characteristic of Dharma is it needs a doer. So no dharma (or karma phala) is delivered without the help of a living being. It is unto the individuals in the society to decide if they want to use their bodies/existence for the establishment of dharma or adharma.

[ramana]

Pioneer, 31 May 2011

Reinterpreting Ramayana
May 31, 2011 11:52:15 PM

Rheek Chakraborty

VENGEANCE OF RAVANA
Author: Ashok Banker
Publisher: Penguin
Price: Rs 299

After slaying Ravana, Rama and Sita are back in Ayodhya where they are to settle down as king and queen. But, does the end of Ravana mean the end of all adharma (evil)? Ashok Banker hits the bookshelf yet again with the seventh book of his Ramayana series, to answer this question.

Banker says that his book is based on the original work of Valmiki, where a realistic depiction of the characters and events can be found. He draws a comparative sketch of the well-known versions of the epic, like Tulsidas’ and Kamban’s, saying that they focus more on imaginative richness or literary prowess, but fall short of telling the tale as it supposedly occurred. For example, most of the other versions depict Sita as a meek wife, but Banker points out that in Valmiki’s Ramayana, she is shown to be a woman of strong character and expression. She, for example, hits Rama on his chest when he refuses her companionship in exile. According to Banker, Sita was as deft in martial arts as Rama and Lakshman were.

The story works on a multi-dimensional level, where Rama, sleeping in his palace at Ayodhya, has a strange dream and wakes up to hear Ravana — already killed by Rama — speak to him inside his head. Ravana asks him to jump from the palace balcony to comprehend this absurd incident. Rama takes the leap in search of an answer. But, strangely, he “falls up”, as Banker puts it, and is flown up into a mystical world far away from this planet. On the way to the hill, he sees the clouds taking form of figures that were present in the epic war of Lanka. Rama asks the guide, who looks very familiar to him, the meaning of these appearances. The guide says that once he reaches the summit of the hill, he will have all his answers.

In a parallel dimension, we see Hanuman watching the gates of Ayodhya when he sees Valmiki entering the city. The sage is here to warn Rama about an impending threat to the kingdom. But by the time he meets Rama, the enemy has struck Ayodhya. Kala Nemi emerges from below the ground to wreak havoc and announce that Ravana’s vengeance was ripe to occur.

Meanwhile, Ravana’s son Atikaya is seen getting ready to fight against the allies of Ayodhya. Mandodari, Ravana’s wife, claims that Sita is Ravana’s daughter. This shocking revelation is one of the highlights of the book and is the seed of Ravana’s revenge. Atikaya then unleashes the wrath of Chandrahaas (moon sword) and defeats everyone, including Rama. But Sita is not affected and fights Atikaya like a skilled warrior.

Just when Atikaya is on the verge of destroying Ayodhya, Ravana appears in an ethereal and a much younger avatar to stop him. Thereafter, Lord Shiva asks Rama and Sita to come back to their heavenly abode, now that Ravana was killed. But Rama says that he must stay back on earth as the end of Ravana did not mean the end of adharma. Now that Ravana was done with, adharma would creep into human beings and mutilate their values, he says. But if he were to stay back, he would have to banish Sita from Ayodhya for being Ravana’s daughter and being a part of Ravana’s ‘great plan’.

Though the book is lucidly written, a tighter edit would have made it a better read.

Banishing pregnant Sita to the forest is jarring episode of Ramayana and must not have sat well with the above author to come up with a convoluted creative story.

[Sanku]

Banishing pregnant Sita to the forest is jarring episode of Ramayana and must not have sat well with the above author to come up with a convoluted creative story.

Yes, it did not, I have read the full series above (6 books) -- and Ashok Banker writes a long (really long, big enough to be a novella) starting foreword on his love of Shri Rama and Ramayana and of the multiple versions he has read and how he feels what Goswami Tulsidas must have felt on that episode.

He calls it a later insertion not in sync with the original and drops it, while lauding the original for many other aspects (strong women role as compared to later ones).

[Pratyush]

The translation of Ramayana by Rajeev Menon also has a mention of a story from Malyalam Ramayan where it is mentioned that Sita is the daughter of Mandadori and Ravan. She was hidden by Mandadori to deny Ravan of the Daughter that he craved and did not have.

The instance of Hunaman confusing Mandodri with Sita in Ravan's bedchamber is used as a coroboration of the Mandadori / Sita relationship by Mr Menon in that particular version of the Ramayan.


The Banishment of Sita from Ayodhya is some thing that is not very easily explained by pure logic. She was made to under go Agni Pariksha in front of every one in Lanka, in order to prove her purity. Before under going the Agni Pariksha, Mandadori suggests to Sita that is is our lot to endure such hard ships on a nearly daily basis.

Yet Sita was exiled by Ram at the say so of another man. When he could have easily defended her by saying that she has been tested and she has been found to be pure. But that did not happen.

I think that the banishment of Sita is a latter addition to Ramayan, with a deliberate intention of making people question the perfectness of Ram through his conduct towards Sita through this episode.

I say this due to the compactness and the free flowing narrative in the main book and the dis jointness of the Uttar Ramayan. Its like they are two separate stories by two separate men.

My mom has a different explanation then this. She says that, Vishnu was cursed that he will be separated from his consort and will have to spend time without her. For a god in heaven where he has an eternity, he cannot bear separation from his consort. However, where he is a man having a finite amount of time in this world, the separation however painful will end with his death. Therefore, becoming endurable.

She supports her point by saying that even Krisha was separated from Radha when he left Gokul for Mathura and the Siddharth leaving his wife and child to attain Bodhitsva.