Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[d_berwal]

MK1 has a CITV but limited in functionality and now a generation and half behind.

IIRC, there is no CITV of any generation on the Mk1. The commander has a panoramic sight without thermal imaging capability and the Gunner has the Thermal sight just like what is shown in that picture above.

my mistake... MK1 has a commanders panoramic site, MK2 will also have a commanders site of gen 3 with Commander's Independent Thermal Viewer (CITV) functionality

It means MK 2 will have 2 thermal sights.
presently in MK1 Thermal channel is shared between commander and gunner.

[Singha]

the hunter-killer paradigm could be integrated into our BMP fleet too I suppose albeit its costly to have two thermals per IFV. the M3 Bradley which is used as a light tank raiding force probably has it , given it costs even more than abrams !

[Austin]

The UAE uses top model BMP-3 which uses French TI pics and integrated weapons is used in similar hunter killer role , now they are planning for upgrade link

[Karan M]

BTW is the image of Arjun correct because it talks of Commander Panoramic Sight ( CITV) when we know this feature will come only with Mk2 options.

Commanders Panoramic Sight is a stabilized independent day sight for the commander to use and designate targets to the gunner. The turret then slews to the target designated by the commander, the gunner, acquires, tracks the target, lays the gun and fires.
CITV is Commanders Independent Thermal Viewer. Or basically, the CPS with a thermal channel. It is currently in tests and will be implemented on the Mk2.

I think both T-90 has and Arjun Mk2 will get French Catherine 3rd Gen TI , while MK1 has older TI from Holland

Incorrect. The T-90 and Arjun both have same generation Thermal Imagers from France. The T-90 is from Thales and the Arjun's from Sagem which took over Arjun contract. Sagem provides the FCS & GMS for Leclerc MBT as well (SAVAN).
The difference is the Arjun's Thermal Imager and FCS is ruggedized to operate in heat & the Arjun itself was designed to use a Thermal sight from the beginning. In contrast, the Thermal channel for the T-90 is implemented as a separate sight (ESSA) which "feeds in" to the T-90's original Gunners Main Sight 1G46. ESSA is nothing but a separate sight head using the Catherine thermal imager integrated by Peleng.
http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... larus.html
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1623.html

Its a crude workaround to having a dedicated all-in-one sight like the Leclerc or Arjun GMS which combine the Thermal channel and Day optics into one sight! This way the Russians could retain the legacy FCS of the T-90 while claiming to give it thermal capability.

Space constraints mean the electronics have little space to vent, and lack of dedicated AC or microcooling have led to repeated heat failures. This problem recurred in the trials versus the Arjun, where the T-90 thermal imager conked out.
As of November 2010

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main47.asp ... efence.asp

Rechristened as ‘Bhishma,’ T-90s’ flaw came to light during its comparative trials with the indigenous MBT Arjun during peak summers in the Thar Desert of Rajasthan.

According to the report submitted by the Indian Army, the French Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera giving T-90s its night vision capability and higher precision is not “adequately tropicalised.” It simply cannot function in the extreme condition for which it was supposed to function. Because of this the thermal imaging camera is prone to malfunction in extreme temperature conditions of Rajasthan, where it is deployed.

“During the trials it was observed that the temperatures inside the tank goes up to 55-60 degree Celsius resulting in the blurring of images taken by the camera,” a senior Indian Army officer told Financial World on condition of anonymity as he was not authorised to speak to media.

Following the repeated delay in the MBT Arjun project, the Indian Army had opted for Russian-made T-90 tanks to counter-balance Pakistan’s acquisition of Ukraine-built T-80 tanks. Majority of T-90s would be deployed in the western sector bordering Pakistan, where mercury soars to intolerable levels during summers.

The report describes the thermal imaging cameras as the ‘eyes’ of the tank. While the tank costs around Rs 12 crore, each of these systems cost (including) Rs 2 crore. Prolonged use of the tank in extreme weather conditions has already rendered 80-90 of such systems “unserviceable.”

The Indian Army is deliberating to get a locally effective air conditioning system for the thermal imaging camera. However, nothing concrete has happened on this front.

This may not be a problem for Russia with their cold climes, but in India with desert operations it is a serious issue. What this means is that the T-90 will use its thermal imager sparingly, lest it overheat.

This is yet another example of how a Russian design designed for Russian operations is simply unsuitable for India. Meanwhile before the trials, this was how the Arjun was performing.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ld/429417/

Following trials in 2008 summer, the Army’s evaluation of the Arjun has changed, says Jayakumar. “The tanks covered 8,000 km and over 800 rounds were fired during the latest trials without any hitches.”

The Arjun is one of the most heavily tested tanks in the world, probably the most heavily tested. It has been designed for Indian conditions and terrain & which is why it works

[SaiK]

karan m, perhaps you gave the russians how to correct defects and get a booster order from IA with a T90s++ version - say another 1000 tanks?.

[Surya]

This way the Russians could retain the legacy FCS of the T-90 while claiming to give it thermal capability

.


Yup and even more - i believe they would neither allow it to be replaced or help to make it work with other ammo

[putnanja]

If T90 and Arjun have the same thermal imagers, how is it cooled in Arjun then? Is it because arjun is spacious and has enough space to dissipate the heat, or is any active cooling system used in case of Arjun?

[Rahul M]

they don't have same TI AFAIK.

[SaiK]

Is that elbit one or ours? there was a news that it is el-op, and there is this janes that says, it was developed at dehra dun

[Austin]

Its a crude workaround to having a dedicated all-in-one sight like the Leclerc or Arjun GMS which combine the Thermal channel and Day optics into one sight! This way the Russians could retain the legacy FCS of the T-90 while claiming to give it thermal capability.

There is nothing crude about the workaround , the Russian TI system then was not something the army wanted , they opted for French system and integrated with the firecontrol system of T-90 , T-90 FCS is quite capable and retains a very high first round probability kill , its as good any thing out there.

Would you call integrating of Lightening pod with MKI a crude workaround because IAF did not opted for the Russian Sapson pod ?

Space constraints mean the electronics have little space to vent, and lack of dedicated AC or microcooling have led to repeated heat failures. This problem recurred in the trials versus the Arjun, where the T-90 thermal imager conked out.

If they want an AC they can integrate it , the russians are offering one the israel are offering , and tropicalisation is a common issue with most imported system , thats taken care of during trial phase itself.

I recollect once Shard Pawar as DM once proudly said that our tanks dont use AC as they are real army men , and he hardly spent few minutes in the tank to see what it is like inside the tank.

The issue with Catherine knocking off has been discussed a hundred times before and Sanku had even given stastics IIRC of just 2 system facing this issue , the Thelka story is just recycling old story perhaps on behalf of lobbies that tehelka is quite know to work with.

Bottom line is

T-90 is used by more then one country , it is operated by Russia , India and Algeria and Turkmenistan has ordered it , it performed very well in trials in Saudi where a single tank ( just single ) went through couple of days of gruelling trials in deserts and cold without any failure or leakages and could fire more than 30 % of its maximum range with 60 % accuracy , speaks well of its FCS . No other contender came with one tank and could fire those long shots with such accuracy . The most important thing is the IA Tankers love it and they always speak good about the tank in all the T-90 exercise video , it participates in all major IA exercises and the IA highly regards it.

IF you still think you do not agree , please post a T-90 vs something in a less biased thread with more broad bases views on the topic , post it in mp.net and find it for your self how does T-90 rates itself well among the others , there are many Russian , American , Germans , Polish citizen who would vouch for their tank but they still have high regards for any T series and T-90.

Unfortunately this thread has the same repetition that were discussed many times over and just a single pov of view is encouraged and that is a IMHO a very biased view for other wise a very good tank.

[nrshah]

T-90 shares a lot of criticizm because of attitude of IA.
Had IA acted positively for indigenous Arjun and ordered the same in numbers comparable to that of T90, I dont think we would have merry go round thread like this one here.

Do we question Jaguar or Mig 27 upgrade or the vastly expensive M2K update (Cost being more than Tejas) when we know we have a Tejas equal /better than them in most aspects? The reason is IAf is committed to good numbers of Tejas. Such a commitment is missing on part of IA which is frustating for all including me. This frustation, i think is getting passed on to T-90.

[arnab]

T-90 shares a lot of criticizm because of attitude of IA.
Had IA acted positively for indigenous Arjun and ordered the same in numbers comparable to that of T90, I dont think we would have merry go round thread like this one here.

Nah they are just inferior - even the Russian army chief says so (They may be great compared to T-55 which was a great Tank in its day but currently it is an inferior tank.

The most advanced weapon systems manufactured for Russia's ground forces are below NATO and even Chinese standards and are expensive, GF chief Col. Gen. Alexander Postnikov said on Tuesday.

"The weapon models that are manufactured by our industry, including armor, artillery and small arms and light weapons, fail to meet the standards that exist in NATO and even China," he said at a session of the Defense and Security Committee of the upper house of the Russian parliament.

He said that Russia's most advanced tank, the T-90, is in fact a modification of the Soviet-era T-72 tank [entered production in 1971] but costs 118 million rubles (over $4 million) per unit.

"It would be easier for us to buy three Leopards [Germany's main battle tanks] with this money," Postnikov said.

Also:

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100521/159099501.html

Russia will launch in July the licensed production of thermal imagers developed by a French firm as part of efforts to gain access to advanced foreign technologies, a Russian daily said on Friday.

According to experts, Russia is lagging 20-30 years behind the West in many areas of technological progress and is attempting to close the gap by purchasing production licenses abroad.

Russian military expert Pavel Felgenhauer contends that the development of Russia's defense industry in the next few years will be based solely on licensed production of foreign military equipment.

"We are so far behind the West that it is cheaper to buy technology [abroad] than to invent our own," Felgenhauer said.

[Austin]

India's Defense Ministry intends to conduct a large-scale modernization of the tank fleet
ArmsTrade

TSAMTO, May 23. Agency Altair has some details of the plan, which were announced by Major General Retired Anukul Chandra in the past in Warsaw on 8 th International Conference and Exhibition "New technologies for the security of the country and its borders."

According to the general, India is going to hold wide-ranging program of modernization of armament. In particular, in addition to developing a new generation of tank and delivery of the new MBT Arjun and T-90S, the command is going to improve the tanks have long been made up in service.

First and foremost, it is planned to upgrade 2,000 tanks T-72 family. Among the planned changes: their equipment with new power pack compartment capacity of 1000 hp, increased armor protection, the replacement of the fire control system and communications equipment that will integrate MBT automated command and control.

Despite the fact that the MBT Arjun has just recently been accepted for service, they also planned to improve. In particular, it must be modified with electronic systems and data exchange system, installed active protection, the gun was prepared to launch anti-tank missiles

Surprise was the information necessary to modify the mass-manufactured T-90S, which is planned to equip the new observationally-sighting device that can be used at night.

But the real surprise was the declaration of intention to upgrade at the plant in Avadi obsolete T-55 tanks. According to the general, armed with NE India, there are about 900 such tanks and cancellation of such a large number of existing technology while India can not afford.

In most tanks, 100-mm gun D-10T is manufactured to be replaced by British license gun L-7-caliber 105 mm. Also to be replaced by fuel tanks, and modified chassis.

It can be assumed that the project will not be included as a priority. Part of the MBT T-55 is already in storage and, as previously reported, based on them is planned to produce heavy armored vehicles.

Undergo modernization and armored vehicles BMP-1 and BMP-2, which in the combat units and in storage, there are about 1600 units. The modernization will be crucial in nature and involves the installation of more powerful engines, modified undercarriage, weapons (in the case of BMP-1), surveillance systems, communications and fire control.

[Sanku]

T-90 shares a lot of criticizm because of attitude of IA.
Had IA acted positively for indigenous Arjun and ordered the same in numbers comparable to that of T90, I dont think we would have merry go round thread like this one here. .

The purchase for domestic can be in tranches compared to bulk one time purchase. In fact MoD guidelines say that external purchases should not be piece meal with follow up orders, and as large orders should be ordered in one go as possible so as to better negotiate as well as ask for ToT etc. Even then only the LAST T 90 order in 2006-7 time frame was a large order and not the previous one in 2000-2.

Compare Tejas purchase with MRCA numbers. Heck compare T 90s own purchases, which despite being externally sourced are still piece meal.

There is nothing about Arjun purchase which is out of ordinary. It is just a sore point on BRF. Some times we look for conspiracy theories where none exist.

[Sanku]

So I presume you believe all of what is said by the Russian General?

Nah they are just inferior - even the Russian army chief says so (They may be great compared to T-55 which was a great Tank in its day but currently it is an inferior tank.

The most advanced weapon systems manufactured for Russia's ground forces are below NATO and even Chinese standards and are expensive, GF chief Col. Gen. Alexander Postnikov said on Tuesday.

And as Austin said, if they can get 3 Leopards for the price of 1 T 90, they should just go ahead and buy that.

[arnab]

So I presume you believe all of what is said by the Russian General?

And as Austin said, if they can get 3 Leopards for the price of 1 T 90, they should just go ahead and buy that.

Well which general disses his own equipment as "inferior and expensive"? Maybe he was shown the result of the Arjun / T-90 face off And yes - if you do add the sunk costs of setting up a T-90 assembly line + the cost of manufacturing the T-90s, I wouldn't be surprised if the General's calculation were true

[Singha]

we always hear of tank upgrades and plans but none about upgrading the BMP2 or whats the plan for a new IFV somewhere at par with the best out there.

tanks can defend and provide a punch, but its mechanised infantry strike groups + mobile artillery (OMGs) which need to go in through the gaps and capture territory or disrupt enemy supply chain.

the BMP2 could use for instance - thermal imager, improved ammunition, better countermeasures and passive detectors, air conditioning of passengers and crew, better mine resistance, better armour and cage to protect vs RPG/LAW weapons, BMS console....its a whole lot of work and nobody wants to talk about it.

sometimes I think all IA cares about is lining up 2000 tanks hubcap to hubcap in the desert like a cavalry army of yore, charge at the enemy in line and spend 3 days milling around in a prokhorovka style symphony of destruction. once the dust settles the winning infantry commander will sally forth in a jeep and plant the flag!

[Austin]

Well which general disses his own equipment as "inferior and expensive"? Maybe he was shown the result of the Arjun / T-90 face off And yes - if you do add the sunk costs of setting up a T-90 assembly line + the cost of manufacturing the T-90s, I wouldn't be surprised if the General's calculation were true

Well there is a lot of talking and points of views what the General Says , What the Industry Says and What the MOD says , the general while speaking to Duma says something , that the industry does not agree with both on price and capability parameters with the general and RF MOD has its own way to look at things and takes a collective pov from Industry and Armed Forces

There is a healthy internal debate there which is good even if its a harsh criticism on its own product . thats the only way you can push things and remain innovative.

Its good to talk and criticise which reminds me of our own IAF chief talking of what 50 or 80 percent obsolescence in IAF fleet which was a healthy and constructive criticism which the dumb media twisted it and said every thing was bad with IAF , if you dont allow criticism ( right or wrong ) to be expressed then its a limiting factor for armed forces and industry.

[Austin]

the BMP2 could use for instance - thermal imager, improved ammunition, better countermeasures and passive detectors, air conditioning of passengers and crew, better mine resistance, better armour and cage to protect vs RPG/LAW weapons, BMS console....its a whole lot of work and nobody wants to talk about it.

The issue is all those latest TI , counter measures , BMS , better armour would end up costing much more than a plain jane BMP-2 that the IA currently uses , considering the fact we operate 1000 plus BMP you could end up with a very high cost viz a viz against an enemy thats not really sophisticated or we are slightly better then them with a basic BMP.

Countries like UAE that has a relatively small BMP force like 600 odd and slush with Oil Money can afford those TI and other updates for their BMP-3.

So with a small budget as ours , competition amongst all the forces to get most of the money , we will end up with a plain jane BMP plus a little extra to get slight competitive edge

The fact that we are thinking of T-55 upgrade to keep it on ORBAT makes you think how acute and competing the problem for funds can be for a large force as IA is they want to make the most of what they have.

[Rahul M]

And as Austin said, if they can get 3 Leopards for the price of 1 T 90, they should just go ahead and buy that.

why is that so unbelievable ? german surplus leo1 should be as cheap as that.

[Sanku]

sometimes I think all IA cares about is lining up 2000 tanks hubcap to hubcap in the desert like a cavalry army of yore, charge at the enemy in line and spend 3 days milling around in a prokhorovka style symphony of destruction. once the dust settles the winning infantry commander will sally forth in a jeep and plant the flag!

Ahhhh......

------

I can imagine Sam Bahadur types twirling his mustache with one hand and the swagger stick with another as he plants one feet on the mound of a shattered gun encampment with his Radio man busy planting a flag.

Sweet.... Make it so, make it so..

[Sanku]

And as Austin said, if they can get 3 Leopards for the price of 1 T 90, they should just go ahead and buy that.

why is that so unbelievable ? german surplus leo1 should be as cheap as that.

Surely that comparison is stretching it a bit?

[Pratyush]

And as Austin said, if they can get 3 Leopards for the price of 1 T 90, they should just go ahead and buy that.

why is that so unbelievable ? german surplus leo1 should be as cheap as that.

Are there any Leo1s available for export today? Even the Leo 2 will start running out soon for exports unless the line is re started.

[Pratyush]

Snip all..........
The fact that we are thinking of T-55 upgrade to keep it on ORBAT makes you think how acute and competing the problem for funds can be for a large force as IA is they want to make the most of what they have.

Is this Gulmarg upg of the T 55. Or some thing else alltogether. If it is some thing else, then can we pitition the IA to replace the T 55 / Vijayantas with the Arjun Mk1 onlee. .

Rest of the fleet can work with the Uber t 90s but the SDREs Infentry types can work be happy to work with the Arjun.

[Rahul M]

>> Are there any Leo1s available for export today? Even the Leo 2 will start running out soon for exports unless the line is re started.

not too long back a number of armies picked up surplus leo1 that were prematurely decom'ed by the germans. I don't know if some are still available (surplus M1A1's certainly are) but surely that's a pedantic point ? it's not as if russia can buy foreign made weapons without changing its laws.

[Pratyush]

>> Are there any Leo1s available for export today? Even the Leo 2
will start running out soon for exports unless the line is re started.

not
too long back a number of armies picked up surplus leo1 that were
prematurely decom'ed by the germans. I don't know if some are still
available (surplus M1A1's certainly are) but surely that's a pedantic
point ? it's not as if russia can buy foreign made weapons without
changing its laws.

Rahul,

The surplus Leos picked up over the last 10/15 years have all been Leo 2s and not Leo 1s. Even the canadians are planning replace the Leo 1 with the Leo2. Where the original plan was to replace them with the Striker MGS.

[Austin]

Even the Leo 2 will start running out soon for exports unless the line is re started.

They had recently demonstrated Leopard 2A7 upgrade for Urban warfare Leo 2 A7

[Pratyush]

Even the Leo 2 will start running out soon for exports unless the line is re started.

They had recently demonstrated Leopard 2A7 upgrade for Urban warfare Leo 2 A7

KMW had upgraded the Leo 2 for Singapore army as well. My point is that sooner rather then latter buyers will run out of surplus Leo 2s unless the line is reopened.

[Rahul M]

I think I mixed up leo2a4 and leo1.

[Pratyush]

^^^

Don't worry, I do that all the time

[Surya]

I believe the Turks did a Paki and picked up a lot of spare Leo 1s . Germany footed the bill

knowing how the Germans maintain any equipment they were in pretty solid condition

anyway from our perspective the Leo 1s are not the answer

Leo 2 is Arjun class - so we are better of with Arjun and progressing.


Of course if we needed tanks in a hurry I would rather go with a Leo 2 than a T 90.

I believe in mobility, protection, firepower in that order

Regarding costs:

once you add up all the stealing, the replacement of junk parts, operational issues - T 90 might be as costly or more

[Pratyush]

The Arjun was designed with the help of KMW if I am not mistaken. It has tremendous upgrade potential due to all the space available on board. The only thing that it needs is orders from the IA. So that at least 1000 are build. Till the FMBT comes on line.

But this is just a wish. The HVF will make 1000 + 90s instead.

[Sanku]

But this is just a wish. The HVF will make 1000 + 90s instead.

I dont think HVF is making 1000+ 90s or 1000+ anything. It would be nice if it could though. Thats the part of the problem.

[Shrinivasan]

Of course if we needed tanks in a hurry I would rather go with a Leo 2 than a T 90.

We need couple of hundred tanks in a hurry and we have a capable tank in Arjun MK1, we should/can get that in the numbers we want, why go in for another imported maal and add more logistics hassles...

Order more Arjuns, start a new shift in HVF, Avadi and get it over with... This is something we have to learn from the Israelis!!

[Gurneesh]

@ Sanku: The contract is for HVF to make 1000+ T90's when actually it should be making 1000+ Arjuns. This is what we are cribbing about.

It's not that Arjun order is limited due to HVF but it is limited due to Army (unfortunately)

[Shrinivasan]

But this is just a wish. The HVF will make 1000 + 90s instead.

I dont think HVF is making 1000+ 90s or 1000+ anything. It would be nice if it could though. Thats the part of the problem.

Is HVF Avadi saying it cannot ramp up production of Arjuns? nope, it is the IA which has to order them and the MOD which has to fund it. HVF Avadi can very well start another shift for Arjun, curtain T-90 production and ramp up Arjun production. it cannot happen over night but is possible.

Even in T-90s case, HVF can churn out completed tanks faster than the pace at which the RU suppliers can provide the kits / parts. my 0.000002paisa

[Sanku]

Of course if we needed tanks in a hurry I would rather go with a Leo 2 than a T 90.

Order more Arjuns, start a new shift in HVF, Avadi and get it over with... This is something we have to learn from the Israelis!!

It would be nice if Avadi could first make the tanks it has been ordered on the time frame promised.

Yes we need Israeli behavior, yet we need it to start it from the basics, without fixing Avadi, nothing is going to work. Fixing Avadi is critical. We have to repeatedly get hammered because Avadi slips on every single commitment, from upgrades of T 72 to Arjuns, to T 90s.

Heck they slip in overhauls of T 72s.

What kind of Indian made tank fleet can we think of with the main manufacturing unit in this shape?

[Austin]

APU for T-90 image

[Sanku]

I dont think HVF is making 1000+ 90s or 1000+ anything. It would be nice if it could though. Thats the part of the problem.

Is HVF Avadi saying it cannot ramp up production of Arjuns?

Read my last post, Avadi never says no. Who is govt does? They just dont deliver on the already ordered ones for which they do not have a excuse.

You have misplaced faith in Avadi, I am afraid.

@ Sanku: The contract is for HVF to make 1000+ T90's when actually it should be making 1000+ Arjuns. This is what we are cribbing about.

You missed the point that a large number of T 90s are manufactured completely in Russia, many come as knocked down kits and only some are manufactured? IIRC 600-700 tanks will be eventually manufactured in Avadi. I dont remember the numbers, but by end of 2008-9 first 10 tanks were made.

The T 90 manufacture line is also 50 tanks a year or at most 100.

1600 T 90s do not mean that the contract is to Avadi. Avadi has not been making enough T 90s either.

[Shrinivasan]

Gurus correct me if I am wrong, delays in upgrade to T-72 is not HVFs fault. The specs for the upgrade have not yet been agreed upon and this is IA and MODs baby. Once this is done, HVF receives the parts and starts its work.

If there is a quality issue in the workmanship then it is HVFs fault, I am not saying HVF is perfect, it is after all another SDRE PSU.
IA's cribs about Arjun were not HVFs fault (maybe some quality issues but not design issues and shifting goal posts), T90 problems are not HVFs either, the case should have been the same even for T-72