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Singha wrote:shooting a man at 600yards is not childs play ... even for a static target....has to be a well trained sniper for that.
Pak jernails must be feeling uncomfortable now, with such sniper teams on the loose ... if 10 people in the attack team escaped as reported.
Indeed to shoot at 600 yards, you need a sniper rifle with telescopic sights, especially at low light/night conditions. But that indeed would have been a terrific shot if it happened. Even shooting 100 yards with a mango Lee Enfield /Ichhapore 0.303 at an NCC firing range with open sights is tough . A 600 yard shot without specialized equipment of a man sized target is highly improbable.
And yeah, such shooting will require months at dedicated shooting ranges to get to that kind of proficiency. All points to a rouge PA /PN element in this strike. All signs of a blue on blue here.
^^^Seems like some of the 26/11 batch of "non-state actors" got disgruntled and turned on their masters - perhaps the Navy frogman mentioned in the Rana trial was among them.
This might be a raid carried out by Xe or some other PMC using 3rd country nationals - level of skills and weaponry suggests so.
shooting a man at 600yards is not childs play ... even for a static target....has to be a well trained sniper for that.
The more i read this kind of statement the more i am convinced this is not a "terrorist attack"(terrorist term being used in loose sense)...this attack has a clear millitary objective...now the objective is part of a definite Geopolitical idea or some tactical manouvre is what we have to find....But my gut feeling gives me some negative sighs....Saif-al-abel may have already tactical nukes in his hand taken from the orions....some of the gunmen have simply melted out....
Little birdies (random assortment of Paki Journalists, Paki people with relatives in the Army, random cross section of Paki society) tells a friend of mine's brother-in-law's neighbor that the armed forces types are FURIOUS at the OBL raid. My friend's brother-in-law's neighbor specifically asked if it is because OBL is a muslim and Paki army feels they are killing a fellow Muslim. Apparently this is NOT the case. Apparently they are furious because they feel that the army top brass has sold the army out to Unkil and they now take orders form Unkil. This to them is a HUGE affront to their H&D. Kinda makes sense.
Some random mid-level Paki Fauj arranged his men to infiltrate the base, blow up the two P3C as a signal to the top brass that co-operation with Unkil will not be tolerated, and exfiltrate. There are news reports that say that
1. The fellows ignored the Abduls near the P3C and went straight to the aircraft to blow them up. Talibs would have tried to cause more casualties. Their main aim seemed to be the planes and not Fauji Abduls.
2. They had very good idea of the layout of the base.
3. Pakis are silent who they were.
If I may blow hot air from my musharraf, this is not a job done with *inside help*, this is a job done *BY* insiders. They probably knew the watch duty rosters, patrol paths, timings, weak points on the fence etc. Also, Pakis will not come out and accept that this is *BY* insiders. Because then "Safety of nooks" chorus will start to get shriller. Even the PAF fellows stealing bombs and setting it under a bridge to give an IED mubarak to musharraf came out much much later.
So speculation onlee. This was done by a TFTA fauj mid-level fellow with his men as a way of sending signal to the top brass. Shooting and getting shot were not part of the plan.
Last edited by Anujan on 25 May 2011 11:21, edited 1 time in total.
But we have become like street-beggars who develop a habit of asking every passerby for money.
Recent assignment of hydro projects to Chinese companies show that China is using its leverage to get better deals from Pakistan than it could if international bids were invited.
So all that US tax payers money is going to china one way or the other
Some stray thoughts on the recent raid on PNS Mehran
1. The acknowledgement by the Chinese government that there were hostages of Chinese origin indicates that the firefight did not end as it seems like....with security forces clearing them off....but with some kind of quid pro quo such as safe passage to remaining raiders. There is a possibility that Chinese were taken as shields till they reached their exit destination. Possible and probable.
2. The target was the PC3 Orion...indicates that there was a clear objective in mind for the raiders. The presence of Chinese "of a certain enterprise" lends credence to the hypothesis of ramana here. Not sure yet of the technical aspects of the nuke angle or anti-Arihant angle. Because I do not know much about it.
3. Who did this? Was is a mixed operation by covert forces of another nation state along with disaffected local forces or mercenaries ( a la La Affaire Sand Line)? Was it TTP as they claimed? There are motives for at least three neighbouring states to have done this...Iran, Afghanistan, India and a couple of regional states/powers in Israel and the US.
4. The lack of attention, response of any kind by the USG indicates that they were aware of the Chinese Enterprise staff and what was happening there. Either they chose to keep quiet as the efforts there were directed only against India or they were in it together with the Chinese is an intriguing question.
5. The GOI is concerned. While they have kept a low profile, the kind of news briefings that senior folks inside GOI have been doing on conditions of annonymity are indications enough. The BJP has raised the issue of safety of nuclear weapons and the need to denuclearise pakistan. It is quite possible that this is being done with a tacit nod from official GOI. On matters such as this, despite differences, in the past, both INC and BJP have taken positions for the GOI when in opposition.
6. The descent of Pakistan is gaining momentum. The USG is trying to ensure that it does not disintegrate as a state but is defanged completely as a base for anti-US and anti-West activities. It is walking a tight rope here. The Chinese too would want to arrest the descent. Both of them want Pakistan to exist for different reasons. Time is running out for Pakistan and the sponsors are asking the elite there to mend fences with India in order to survive.
7. India can expect the following:
(i) A spectacular assault on Indian installations of economic importance
(ii) Increased pressure on GOI to throw Pakistani establishment a life line by doing at least some kind of positive deal....at least a deal on issues like Water sharing or Sir Creek and talks on Kashmir
(iii) An "Aman Ki Asha" type initiative in India will be launched to make a case for helping Pakistan in the hour of crisis....Pakistan will be portrayed as a family member who fought and went but is now having trouble and he is still family and India is morally obliged to look after family member ..even recalcitrant ones
These are just stray thoughts that comes to mind at the present. Hopefully some of these can be validated once we get more insights on this raid.
China denies citizens held hostage in Pakistan base attack
BEIJING: China's Foreign Ministry on Wednesday denied that any of the country's citizens was held hostage in an attack by Taliban militants on a Pakistani naval base, although it said Chinese technicians were moved to safety because of the assault.
Beijing's denial followed news reports that it had confirmed Chinese nationals were held by militants in the weekend siege.
^^ The silence of USG is the most puzzling aspect ( among many others)...would have expected avalanche of statements about "victim of terror"/"help poor bakistan" etc from GOTUS and its mouthpieces ( esp to "soothe" Paki nerves after the Abbottabad affair).
But, there is zilch/shunya comment on this major attack. Was there a Unkil hand/warning in this or has unkil decided that enough is enough with TSPA and so, will not even make token conciliatory noises towards Pak?
I bet Kiyani's a$$ that it was a false flag operation to garner sympathy ahead of trials in US . ISI knew that its whoreness for dollars and love for jehad is going to come out in the open. So, a spectacular show to tell the world that ISI has rogue elements on which they don't have control. Even they are victims of rogue elements. Hence, puki media shouting from the rooftop about "inside hand" rather than Y^3 conspiracy.
Namaste. This is my first post. I have been reading this forum for a while and i thought i will make a small contribution to it. I saw a video on SBS channel (Sydney) last night about the state of security in Pakistan, especially their military installations following on from the recent attack at the Naval base.
Here is the video for your viewing pleasure
Some of the facts and my observations about the attack on Mehran
1. The attack lasted about 17 hours.
2. It was planned and executed in a professional manner with clear objectives.
3. The number of personnel killed is less and even the collateral damage they could have caused is also limited.
4. 2 P3C Orions have been destroyed along with some other naval assets.
5. There were no demands from the hostage takers.
My observation
1.Those couple of aircraft could be easily sabotaged in other ways with their motivation, resources and training. Either it was a distraction or part of the operation to gain something else.If it was a demonstration to show their seriousness then they surely would have resources to threaten other aircraft in the vicinity.
2.The attackers were not indiscriminate killers, but trained soldiers following a clear plan. The number of people killed were in my guess purely defensive.If they had disliked Pakistan Navy so much they would definitely caused much much more collateral damage.
3.There was a bargain and Pakistan obliged. The escaped two would be holding on to that. It might be something which was available only at Mehran, perhaps a component or a person.
I have only a couple of questions.
1. Why would you send a single team of highly trained professionals with high tech gear to hold a few hostages and blow up a couple of aircraft?
2. What is the primary mission for the whole operation?
WOMAN: I would say give us a break. Pakistan has 64-year-old history and in the 64 years, America, USA always supported the Pakistani military. The dictators ruled on average eight years and the democratic politician rule average 1.8 years. Look at the history and tell us why America couldn't succeed in the tan jeers, all this terrorism because the world is not focusing on the root cause of militancy and terrorism. The world should focus on the root cause.
JENNY BROCKIE: Lydia, can I get a response?
LYDIA KHALIL: I think Amin outlined the strategic interest the United States has but Pakistan has a strategic interest in the relationship with the United States as well. It's a two-way relationship. Again, I agree with what was said it's not about this issue of trust It's about how are we going to, as allies of Pakistan, within the Pakistani Government, make Pakistan a society that benefits its people, makes it secure and makes the region secure. That's what it should be about.
JENNY BROCKIE: We will get on to the alleged rogue elements in the military in a moment. Before we do, Naeem, your response to the idea of the military taking over?
NAEEM SALIK: A lot is made of the military's role in Pakistan. It has played a larger than life role there.
JENNY BROCKIE: Does it run the country?
NAEEM SALIK: Not at all, because you see, I have come across people in Pakistan - let me make the point - I've come across people recently in Pakistan talking to me and saying the current army chief is very passive and look what the military is doing, the country is going down the drain, why don't they intervene. I said in three years you were praying for the military to go away and for democracy to return. The problem with Pakistan is that whenever the democracy comes in, they fail to deliver and people get - they have high expectations from them. Those expectations are not met and they get disgruntled very soon and that's why they start calling this time the military say they are going to stay back, let the civilians rule and let them be in five years, it has never happened before, whatever is happening in Pakistan, the military normally would have intervened but it hasn't and it doesn't want to.
JENNY BROCKIE: Samina, who runs Pakistan?
PROFESSOR SAMINA YASMEEN: Everybody runs and nobody runs Pakistan and that's the problem. We are mixing the whole picture saying it's the military or not the military or the military should come back into power. Yes, military is very strong, yes military has been in power directly or indirectly. But I think when we start putting so much emphasis as Naeem was putting on, as the military as the main actor in the picture, we are missing the picture.
JENNY BROCKIE: Meaning the intelligence service?
PROFESSOR SAMINA YASMEEN: I think what we have to accept is that the Pakistan of today, with 170 million people, is a lot more complex than this we try and project it as. There are definitely people who try and run it in the business community very effectively. There is military that has very strong say in it. Let's not totally ignore the role that even politicians have played. Admittedly they don't work well with each other, there are problems. But to not trust the military as the harbinger of negative radical ideas and then say the military should come back into power, it doesn't make any sense.
Najam Sethi tearing a new one for the faujis.
He says that PNS Mehran has marrige halls INSIDE the complex, which is rented out to civilians for marriages!!! Why then talk about security hain ji?
strangely enough the trees look just fine...unlike a really big naval gunfire type 15" that would rip apart nearby trees. sounds like a small explosion which met a substandard 100 yr old police thana...collapsed in a dismal heap/
Singha wrote:strangely enough the trees look just fine...unlike a really big naval gunfire type 15" that would rip apart nearby trees. sounds like a small explosion which met a substandard 100 yr old police thana...collapsed in a dismal heap/
just look at the rubble. The building looks so fragile that even a bunch of fire-crackers could have done the job.
After the Osama-e-Qatl Raid, in a meeting in GHQ, what could have transpired:
Kiyani: It was your responsibility that Americans would not as much as get a scent of where Osama lived. You said the safehouse was secure and off the radar.
Hamid Gul: Nobody could have known. I trust my men. They can never have uttered a word. If it wasn't for the foolishness of the PTA chap, the Yankees could never have known there was no telephone or Internet connection to the safehouse.
Kiyani: Do you even understand, in how much sh*t we have all landed. It is not just our echandee that is on fire, but our whole game we played on the Americans is over.
Hamid Gul: It is not over!
Kiyani: The whole world caught us in the headlights with our pants down! Who is going to believe, that we were not sheltering OBL! It is all over!
Hamid Gul: It is not over! The Americans have no choice. They cannot leave the bed, no matter how much gas we produce under the covers!
Kiyani: And that exactly is the problem! The cover is gone! The gas has come out and now the whole world can see how much we stink!
Hamid Gul: We will tell them it was a rogue fart! We will tell them some ISI fellows use illicit herbs from Helmand and are high on Islam! They will buy it!
Kiyani: Not this time! The whole American media is baying for our blood. Election cycle is starting in America. The Congressmen would want to get elected by making biryani out of us. Nobody is going to buy the hogwash with rogue ISI anymore!
Hamid Gul: It is no big deal. All we have to prove is that you are innocent, you did not know! And there is rogue ISI after you!
Kiyani: And how do you go about doing it?
Hamid Gul: Yaar, you worry too much! Some of my chaps would attack your motorcade, give you a few bruises and do away with your Begum!
Kiyani (in panic): No, No, No! Nothing like that! My Begum and I, we are again on good terms, and I can't live without her paranthas. Then there is the case of my H&D and my status as the main Ghazi! I cannot have that all put under a cloud. You have to look for some different way!
Hamid Gul: We have nukes! The Americans get jittery every time they think they are not safe! We can organize some attack on Sargodha! That would get American attention, and they would be assured that there is in fact a rogue ISI, of which you know nothing. We can show that our services are infiltrated.
Kiyani: I don't think that is wise! Not on the nukes! The Americans may get too jittery! Just yesterday, they took out Osama. They are full of confidence today! They could try to take out the nukes too if they thought they were in danger! We can't have that! If we show the attack succeeds because of insider help, then all hell would come loose, and if we show that it doesn't succeed, then it would prove that the nukes are safe, but wouldn't really get us out of the pit of sh*t we sit in. It has to be something else!
Hamid Gul: Well we could launch an attack on something else they know we hold very dear, something the military holds very dear. If that is also something the Americans are invested in, all the better! It would all look like the attackers had inside help. The Goras would be convinced that the military has a rogue section.
Kiyani: Hmmmm! Go on!
Hamid Gul: How about the F-16s? We could blow up a couple!
Kiyani: Hmmmm! No. We need the jets! We aren't going to get many of those in the coming years! Besides Suleman (Air Chief) would never agree!
Hamid Gul: Then how about the P3C-Orions? There are Americans monitoring them! PNS Mehran is near Karachi. A huge bonfire would be visible from a long distance! Noman Bashir (Navy Chief) would play along! He knows what is good for him!
Kiyani (now smiling): Yaar Hamid! Tera jawab nahin! You're a really cunning bast*rd, you know!
Hamid Gul: I can have my men ready within three weeks!
smohan wrote:Namaste. This is my first post. I have been reading this forum for a while and i thought i will make a small contribution to it. I saw a video on SBS channel (Sydney) last night about the state of security in Pakistan, especially their military installations following on from the recent attack at the Naval base.
Here is the video for your viewing pleasure
Islamabad: Officers received training biased against the United States at a prestigious Pakistan army institution, according to Wikileaks, underscoring concerns that anti-Americanism in the country's powerful military is growing amid strains with Washington.
RajeshA ji, excellent hypothesis. Two quick observations:
1. this attack is considerable humiliation not only in the eyes of the world but within their mil ranks. Expensive and demotivative way of playing. Should have better economic ways to prove the point of rogue elements
2. Why TTP is playing along?
But having said this, there is a quite plausibility in the hypothesis. PA has history of being irrational and gambling in big way.
People carry body of Pakistan Naval officer
People carry the body of Pakistan Naval officer, who was killed in a militant attack on a naval aviation base, for his burial in Lahore,
Family members of a Pakistan Naval officer, who was killed in a militants attack on a naval aviation base, mourn during his funeral in Lahore,
A member of the Pakistan Navy holds a national flag and a hat of navy officer Lieutent Yasir Abbas, who was killed during a gun battle against militants
A dog cools off in a stream running past the Mehran naval aviation base in Karachi on May 24, 2011.
Soldier keeps guard as water buffalos wade
A soldier keeps guard from a watchtower as water buffalos wade through a stream around the compound walls of the Mehran naval aviation base in Karachi May 24, 2011. Militants attacked the base a day earlier, destroying two aircraft and laying siege to a main building in one of the most heavily guarded bases in the nuclear-armed country.
I have the gut feeling that the three bearded Navy momins from the right might have been accomplices in the attacks. fanaticism drips from their pious faces
^^ So, just 1 TSPN guy was buried since the attack?
All the pics so far seem to be only of Lt.Yasir...what happened to the others, esp the SSG(N) Kammandus?
. This is really good!
