Indian Army: News & Discussion

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 19 May 2011 06:57

Rahul
Good find.

One thing to keep in mind regarding US TOE is that when 2 and 3 Armd Divisons disbanded in the mid-1990s, their assets were redistributed between the Infantry and Airborne Divisions. 49 Armd Division was re-designated 36 Inf Division and reorganized.

Also with our own TOE, the attachment of attack helo sqn to each Armd Div was purely notional, there never were enough helos. Now with WI Dhruv + LOH + LCH, we will finally be able have significant corps level (and within select divisions) aviation capability.

One TOE I've heard discussed for the new Mtn Corps is an aviation brigade of three squadrons (1 attack sqn, 1 utility/assualt sqn light, 1 utility/assualt sqn medium) for a total of 36 helos.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 May 2011 09:48

British Army Chief in India, plans bilateral army-to-army exercise

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 May 2011 10:28

Army presents three-point plan to counter China

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 May 2011 10:35

^^^IA needs a Mountain Strike Corps for both NE and J&K.
Plus, expect more rationalization of AOR in Ladakh and additional raisings under Northern Command. We could do with a Corps HQ for Southern Ladakh.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 May 2011 10:43

Sources said the army was unimpressed with the performance of homemade advanced light helicopters.

Sigh....

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 19 May 2011 10:57

rohitvats wrote:^^^IA needs a Mountain Strike Corps for both NE and J&K.
Plus, expect more rationalization of AOR in Ladakh and additional raisings under Northern Command. We could do with a Corps HQ for Southern Ladakh.

I am assuming that you are suggesting a Mountain Strike Corps EACH for the NE and J&K. That would mean another 6 divisions. Then if the existing infantry division in Ladakh become a corps for Southern Ladakh, then that would mean another 2 divisions. That would total 8 new divisions to add to the 9 in the NE and one in Ladakh. I hope I understood you correctly?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 May 2011 11:03

the transport Dhruv is suitable for light fwd logistics and airlift only given its small size. it solves the last mile supply problem and permits us to retire the Alouette3 and Llama. also good for inserting and recovering recce units and small nos of casevac.

I guess what IA is talking about is medium helis in large nos - Mi17V / SH60 / CH47 types that can take say 20 troops , their kit and a underslung cargo upto around 12,000ft .... or even heavier types like CH53X (large nos on order for USMC) or Mi26T.

ideally the HAL 10-t heli project should be got sanctioned around 2002 and be nearing completion now. the Dhruv has been flying since mid 90s. this is the most important need.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 May 2011 11:07

Another thing to remember, US has rationalized it divisions to create these super sized Cavalry and Armoured divisions, we SDREs have been focusing heavily on our Infantry Division (with focus on COIN), also we have multiple armoured regiments/brigades in comparison to uncle. Over time with a steady infusion on MBTs (T-90 and Arjun), ICV (BMP-IIs, Future ICVs etc) we would get a more mobile formation which also boasts heavy firepower.

All this augumented by Brahmos, MBRLs (Pinaka and SMERCH) and Tube Artillery (we are short of 155mm, but have plenty of 105mm).

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 19 May 2011 11:23

I would suggest that IA/IAF/IN/HAL/DRDO start developing an AMH (Advanced Medium Helicopter) based on the EH101 concept/class.

We already have the Shakti engine, which delivers 1400shp. The EH101 employs three engines. If we can make a similar arrangement, three Shakti engines would provide 4600shp, which is more than the Mi-17 has. It would make for a powerful medium lift chopper, which could carry even up to 28 troops, in tough locations, with sufficient power.

Dunno if its already under development, probably is.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 May 2011 12:01

I agree with you 100+, a three engined Medium Helo can metamorphose into a heavy Attack helo too

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 19 May 2011 12:44

Small video on the Aviation corps (10 mins).

Cool vid, gives some info and perspectives, shows you the guys who fly the choppers, and the machines themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4x-b9wz9u4

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 May 2011 13:03

rajrang wrote: I am assuming that you are suggesting a Mountain Strike Corps EACH for the NE and J&K. That would mean another 6 divisions. Then if the existing infantry division in Ladakh become a corps for Southern Ladakh, then that would mean another 2 divisions. That would total 8 new divisions to add to the 9 in the NE and one in Ladakh. I hope I understood you correctly?

yes, i meant a MSC each for NE and J&K. And that would not mean 6 Division. I'm expecting the MSC to have 2 Divisions - 3 divisions for MSC in mountainous terrain would be too cumbersome. So, that is four new division. As for Ladakh (it should be Southern Ladakh and part of Himachal Pradesh) - I expect new Corps HQ with 2 new divisions - existing Division (3rd ID) will stay with XIV Corps. So, that is 6 more mountain divisions and three more Corps HQ.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 19 May 2011 13:39

Indian Army Aviation's choppers. A detailed overview of the machines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvp2ICa3PiA&NR=1

One Army aviation pilot describes the Dhruv as "The finest machine we have got".

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 19 May 2011 14:12

Corps of Engineers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiHKMGo- ... re=related

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 19 May 2011 14:26

More Mission Army clips

Corps of EME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEH-34xh ... re=related

Corps of Signals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgllbD71 ... re=related

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 19 May 2011 14:28

Army Ordnance Corps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnZhQAGx ... re=related

Artillery - The God of War

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbxVnEDK ... re=related

Army Medical Corps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z90skjJJ ... re=related

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 May 2011 14:54

Shiv Aroor has posted a compilation of his Photos of "Ex Vijayee Bhave", here it is -> http://www.scribd.com/doc/55286798/Exer ... o-brochure

Njoy

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 May 2011 14:57

I expect new Corps HQ with 2 new divisions - existing Division (3rd ID) will stay with XIV Corps. So, that is 6 more mountain divisions and three more Corps HQ.

Why another Corps apart from the 2 Mountain Corps? are we not having too many corps (and its associated overheads) in Northern Command already?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 May 2011 15:10

^^^How would you classify Corps HQs as one too many?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 May 2011 15:21

rohitvats wrote:^^^How would you classify Corps HQs as one too many?

I said, we have too many Corps HQ in Norther Command (XiV- Leh, XV - Srinagar and XVI - Nagorta)
WE also have Western Command's IX-Yol and XI- Jullunder at that general Area. If we add One Mountain Corps and another Regular Corps in the sector, don't we end up having way too many Corps?

Or is it a Chankian Yindo's move to spread-out our currently bloated Corps?

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 19 May 2011 15:43

Er, who says the corps are "bloated"? And how do you determine "too many"? These are rather subjective words. If that is the force structure required to defend the western borders, and conduct CI to boot, why is it too many?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 May 2011 16:02

cheenum wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^How would you classify Corps HQs as one too many?
I said, we have too many Corps HQ in Norther Command (XiV- Leh, XV - Srinagar and XVI - Nagorta)
WE also have Western Command's IX-Yol and XI- Jullunder at that general Area. If we add One Mountain Corps and another Regular Corps in the sector, don't we end up having way too many Corps?

Or is it a Chankian Yindo's move to spread-out our currently bloated Corps?

Do one thing - look up the distance (or area covered) from Zojila pass in north-western kashmir to Dhemchok in south eastern ladakh? I'll make your work easier. Follow the links below to the locations i mentioned above:

Zoji-la: http://wikimapia.org/#lat=34.2795953&lo ... ji%20la%20
Dhemchok: http://wikimapia.org/#lat=32.7433924&lo ... search=Leh

One Corps (XIV Corps) looks after this entire stretch (add Siachen to this)? You think this is idle condition?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 May 2011 18:38

Rupak wrote: One TOE I've heard discussed for the new Mtn Corps is an aviation brigade of three squadrons (1 attack sqn, 1 utility/assualt sqn light, 1 utility/assualt sqn medium) for a total of 36 helos.

that is fine for the proposed IBGs and should be good enough for the armoured div's, perhaps with an additional attack sqdn.
but I do hope the MSDs get assets enough for at least one fully equipped air assault btn. unlike the plains divisions, the mtn div's have very few mobile offensive assets due to limitations of terrain, air mobility is the only solution. since we should be having only 2 mtn strike div's it should be possible to afford 2 helicopter brigades.
the important point would be whether IAF would be ready to transfer some of its medium helo's on a semi permanent basis to IA.
incidentally, the dhruv's troop carrying capacity is very similar to that of the much larger blackhawk used by US forces.

comparing with the US full spectrum cmbt avia bde

Code: Select all

	Full spectrum Combat Aviation Brigades 
	
		1 X reconnaissance squadron (30 x OH-58D Kiowa Warrior)
		1 X aviation attack btn (24 x AH-64 Apache )
		1 X aviation assault btn (30 x UH-60 Black Hawk)
		1 X general aviation support btn 
			8 x UH60 Command Aviation 
			12 x CH-47 Chinook 
			12x HH-60M
		1 X aviation support battalion to help with logistics.

      Total:  30 X OH-58d, 24 X AH-64, 38 X UH-60, 12 X Ch-47, 12 X HH-60M

and taking our relative fewer resources into consideration, I would think the mtn strike div's aviation bde should look something like this

Code: Select all

	Indian Army Helicopter Brigade
	
		1 X recon squadron (12 x LOH)
		2 X attack helo sqdn (24 x LCH)
		1 X air assault btn (24 x WSI-dhruv + 12 X Mi-17 on loan from IAF)
		1 X aviation support sqn (12 X Mi-17 on loan from IAF)
		1 X HQ flight (6 X WSI-dhruv)
		1 X medevac flight (6 X dhruv ambulance)	
		
	Total : 12 X LOH, 24 X LCH, 30 X WSI-dhruv, 6 X dhruv ambulance, 24 X Mi-17

much less punch than US CAB's but should be enough for us.

given the numbers of helo's we are inducting, (~230 dhruvs and likely to go up, 12 medevac versions by AMC, 80 additional Mi-17, 300 LOH class helo's etc) this should be quite possible.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 19 May 2011 20:24

Rahul
More for you to chew on. I don't know if you saw these already:

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_dis ... rike+Corps

"As per the army's plans for its aviation wing -- mooted in 2007 and to be implemented over a 15-year period ending 2022 -- the three strike corps would be beefed up with an aviation brigade comprising two squadrons of 12 attack helicopters each, apart from two squadrons with 15 choppers each for tactical battle reconnaissance and casualty evacuation, top army sources said.

Apart from the 1, 2 and 21 strike Corps, the army will also provide aviation brigades to each of its 10 pivot or defensive corps, but these would essentially be in the nature of tactical lift capabilities, with some offensive elements."

So we could posit
3 x Strike Corps Aviation Bde = (3 x 24 LCH, 3 x 30 ALH) = 72 LCH + 90 ALH
10 x Pivot Corps = (10 x 12 LCH/WSI, 10 x 30 ALH/LOH) = 120 LCH/WSI + 300 ALH/LOH

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 May 2011 20:32

All meaningless unless I have a General like Kapil Vij to use them as he wishes with no interference

sorry

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 May 2011 20:35

by the time all these helis get built 2020 our road and rail system would also have been toned up a couple notches, permitting faster and denser ground movements also.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 May 2011 10:38

ASPuar: I meant Boated in a very Chankian way, it has been said by many Gurus that the IA has made its current formations very heavy instead of creating additional brigades / corps (we saw this when 2 mountain divisions were created post haste from current formations drawing resources which might get back-filled later.

Rohit: I think you meant "ideal", I have to agree with you, it is not. Also CI is another factor in the mix. If we end up with Seven Corps HQ in that region (Northern Command XiV- Leh, XV - Srinagar and XVI - Nagorta & Western Command's IX-Yol and XI- Jullunder Plus a new Corps plus Mountain Strike Corps), so be it.

I was doing another research on the # of people in military age available in India, it is a huge # compared many other countries (including lizard and its minion)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2011 22:11

Rohitvats et al, Have you seen this post about IA Aviation Corps and plans?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1092613

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 May 2011 23:11

"100 gun Concept"
Where are we on this? Is it part of IA's doctrine or was it dropped after Kargil. Old videos from Kargil as well as NateGeo/India Defence videos show massed Arty guns akin to a 100 guns concept.

Mountain Strike Corps employing 100 guns concept would be huge blow to a defending force.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 May 2011 13:17

ramana wrote:Rohitvats et al, Have you seen this post about IA Aviation Corps and plans?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1092613

Yes Sir, I have seen the report.

There was one such report which had emerged couple of years back on similar lines - this was when ALH was entering service in IA and there was lot of talk on focus on rotary wing segment in media and also amongst the DPSUs.

IMO, the 2010-2020 is a very critical period for the transformation of Services in India. Especially, in case of IA, lot of things are seeing /will see light of the day which were envisaged in IA Plan-2000, the 15-year plan set in motion in 1985 by Sundarji. Nothing came of it due to lack of funds and political scenario. Mountain Strike Corps (MSC), Air Assault Division/Brigade, Air-Mobile Division - all these concepts were put forth by Sundarji or he had a hand in it. There seems to be great emphasis in IA on air-assault concept and with AAC maturing with integral assets, we may very well see an Air Assault Brigade in IA in medium term. The only thing not happening on the scale envisaged by Sundarji is the Mechanization of IA - and I have no idea why. Only the RAPIDs are to go up from 4 to 7...but this will also take time as it will require new raising.

The only good thing I've seen in this respect is the quoted number for requirement of FICV - for which private companies are to come up with a concept. The number quoted is 2,600 which @52 per regiment translates into 50 Regiments. Present requirement is for between 38-40 regiments..so, there might be some increment there.

Another thing - I feel IA is finally rounding-off into a more cohesive and tigh-fit fighting unit in terms of spread of C4ISR and EW/COMINT/SIGNIT assets and more engineering and support resources. The net efficacy levels I feel are rising with every day -- just look at the article by Ajai Shukla and you'd be amazed to hear about sophisticated equipment being inducted into Corps of Signals. The addition of intergral air assets like LCH and may be, heavy attack helos, will exponentialy increase the force behind the fist - but not only the force will increase but the accuracy of it hitting the enemy at most vulnerable point is also increasing all along.The ACCCS System is a prime example of that.

We're trying to make up for structural gaps in requirements along with addition of newer capabilities - the IA IMO is thinking ahead in terms of requirement and trying to get weapons/systems which are in intial stages of their development cycle and offer more development ppotential. It is no longer about number of tanks or guns alone.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 21 May 2011 13:17

Infantry- the Queen of the Battlefield

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnco_ZOU ... re=related

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 May 2011 13:34

^^
That's a clip from Natgeo's Mission Army program. It is an exceptional program and a must watch.

The episodes can be found on Natgeo India's youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/natgeoindia

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 May 2011 04:33

Anti-insurgency unit head in J&K to lead India’s Beijing visit pack

n a step demonstrating Jammu and Kashmir to be an integral part of India, a major general heading a counter-insurgency unit in the state is set to lead an army delegation to Beijing next month. The choice of Gurmeet Singh — whose troops in Delta Force are responsible for counter-terrorism operations in three hill districts in the northeast of Jammu and Kashmir — comes a year after China had refused a visa to the then Northern Command chief, Lt Gen BS Jaswal, saying that he was “controlling troops in a disputed area, Jammu and Kashmir”.
:
The Chinese have escalated their aggressive tactics on the country border areas and the Indian Army is geared up to face the threat.

The Indian Army has activated its airfields along the Line of Actual Control and enhanced its military presence and capabilities in the area. The roads to these airfields have been upgraded.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 May 2011 05:09

Soldier martyred in Kashmir cremated

Bhind, MP, May 25 : An Indian Army soldier, martyred near a forward post in Kiran Sector of Jammu and Kashmir's Kupwara district, has been cremated at his village Jaitpura with full military honours.

"On February 4, Shailendra Singh Jadon and another personnel Pradeep Singh were buried alive in a storm while on patrol duty," said the 88 Armoured Regiment's Subedar Omprakash Singh.

Pradeep's body was found by soldiers the following day but excessive snowing prevented locating of the other corpse. With the onset of summer, the snow melted and the body was found on Saturday.

"One son has become a martyr. Now my grandsons Pankaj and Vikram -- the children of my elder son Dinesh -- will enlist for defending the country," said the soldier's father Kedar. Brothers Dinesh, Mukesh and Avadhesh are proud of their sibling.

As Pankaj lit the pyre yesterday, the villagers present could not hold back their tears. Earlier, an Army detachment played the Last Post and gave the three-volley salute to their departed comrade-in-arms.

The martyr's family includes his wife Suman and daughter Palak (4).

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 28 May 2011 01:31

Army men facing housing problem.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 610148.cms

The league president said the AWHO has been approaching the state government for long to provide land at reasonable prices for construction of housing colonies for armed forces at different places in Bihar. But, despite assurances by the state government, Army could not get land, he said, adding "Armed forces need at least 10 acres of land in Patna to start construction of Army colonies".

According to Col (retd) Singh, the number of serving officers in Army from Bihar is 300 while the number of retired Army officers could be around 1,000. The number of soldiers from Bihar would be in thousands.

The civil-military liaison conference held last year had discussed this problem. The state government had also assured to provide land to the Army to build its colony. Unfortunately, no step has been taken so far in that direction. About 14 posts of Zila Kalyan Adhikari are lying vacant in Bihar.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 May 2011 07:09

Russia Snubs India : Moscow cancels two military exercises with India

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 May 2011 07:16

well Rus has only its own internal mess in milind complex to blame for india being unhappy. a superpower who build 300 n-subs having to buy LHD and TI from abroad is not a good sight.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 May 2011 07:28

There could be a strong undercurrent in the downfall of Indo-Russian relationship if that report is true that might not be obvious. Perhaps many geostrategic reason influencing them.

Groshkov deal is a good example of how bad things can get , we should have simply backed out from that deal.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 May 2011 09:51

did IA actually order the Spyder or was it another of those kite flying reports ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 May 2011 09:52

Indian and French armies to conduct Exercise Shakti this year